44: The Thomas Dodson Episode

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Thomas Dodson, owner of Classic Clean Company in south central Kentucky, to talk about building a simple, steady, and highly trusted cleaning business in a small market.

Thomas shares how Classic Clean started almost by accident after his wife was ready to move on from home health work. What began with just $310 in sales during their first month has grown into a 10-year business offering residential cleaning, janitorial services, post-construction cleaning, window cleaning, pressure washing, soft washing, and other complementary cleaning services.

This conversation is especially valuable for home service business owners who are trying to create dependable recurring revenue while keeping their operations simple and professional. Thomas explains why janitorial work became such a powerful foundation for the company, how recurring commercial accounts helped stabilize revenue, and why training technicians on the actual science of cleaning is so important.

Sheila and Thomas also talk about ISSA training, SOPs, employee hiring, core values, showing up on time, clear expectations, billboards, Google Ads, predictive targeting cards, expanding into a new market, and using window cleaning as a strong entry point to sell additional services.

The biggest takeaway: business does not have to be overcomplicated to be successful. If you answer the phone, show up when you say you will, communicate clearly, train your people well, and keep your systems simple, you can build a trusted company that lasts.

 

Resources:

 

Classic Clean Company

Classic Clean Company Facebook

ISSA

Cleaning Industry Management Standard / Training Resources

Claude AI

Good to Great by Jim Collins

The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The Huge Convention

The Huge Insider Newsletter Signup

The Huge Insider Podcast Downloadable Action Guide

The Huge Mastermind Information Page

Huge Foundations Facebook Group

 

 

Transcript:

 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We're your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. It is Sheila Schmeltzer, your host and contributor, coming to you from southeastern North Carolina and my home shop facility. I apologize if it's a little echoey, but this is the real deal. Uh, today we've got Thomas Dodson. Thomas owns Classic Clean Company out of southeastern Kentucky, and he's been in business for 10 years, and we're gonna get to Thomas today. Welcome, Thomas. Good morning. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. Good. Um, well, it's exciting to have you on the show. I know that, uh, this is one of your first debuts on a podcast, and you told me earlier that you like to listen to the Huge Transformation and listen to everybody's stories that we interview. I do. I, I like to listen to them, especially when I travel. I like to turn on the podcast and listen to everybody's stories. Uh, it's interesting to see where they're at, where they came from. Um, it's always interesting, and everybody has a really diverse story. Um- Yeah. That's great. Um, tell me, can you... Is there anyone that kind of stands out, where you said, "Wow, I learned a lot from that," or, "I really resonate with that"? Is there any particular episode? Not really right off the top of my head, but I'm a, I'm a connoisseur of information. I, I read and listen and, and try to gather information constantly, whether it's books or industry material or, you know, just somebody else I know that has, has done well in whatever industry they are. Or, or, and even somebody that's not done so well. I mean, sometimes there's a lot to be learned from the guy who didn't do well. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, so I'm always consuming information, and I always dig, uh, something out of every podcast that I find helpful. Yeah, I agree. Are you like me? 'Cause I went to college but dropped out. Did you go to college and finish, or do you have a degree in anything? I went to college with an animal science degree. Uh- Okay ... and I probably, like, um- 15 hours graduating. Okay. Um- You had 15 hours to go? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I... And the small town that I'm in, I grew up in the automotive industry. Um- Okay ... and we had a Chevrolet dealership here, and that's, I couldn't wait to get back, uh, and, and get to work in the dealership. And so, uh, you know, just as soon as I could break free, um, I broke free. Um, but I, I liked college. I went, I learned, um... I took the classes I wanted to take and learned what I wanted to learn, and brought that back with me when I came, so, um, but it, it's, it was a good experience. Um- Good. Good. Yeah, so, um, but you said animal... Animal science. Animal science? Yeah. Okay. So I just need to know real fast, we're gonna move on, but what does one do when they have an animal science degree? Um, you know, you're, you're talking about nutritionists, you're talking about- Ah ... uh, anything in the, in the agricultural industry related to animal. Got it. Okay. Great. Okay. I can see that in southeastern Kentucky. Yeah. I can see that, yeah. Okay. So how did you get in to starting Classic Clean, and tell us about Classic Clean, who you are today, and how you got started. Well, like s- earlier, nobody aspires to start a janitorial service. It wasn't in my bingo card when I went to college. Uh, I never, never dreamed of being, uh, in this industry, but, uh, I grew up in the automotive industry in a small community, and there got to be a lot of pressure from the economy and from General Motors and others, you know, to kind of get rid of their small dealers. So they, they made life hard for their small dealers in rural areas. And so we closed our dealership and then went, uh, spent some time in the trucking industry, uh, then done a little bit of manufacturing in a building that we had. We built some farm equipment and stuff. But it seemed like every time I got into a new venture, I was always running into, uh, economic pressures that I could not control. Um- Okay ... you know, so, um, the more I looked and, and the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, the service industry is where our economy's going. You can't outsource it. It's not gonna be produced in China. So- Um, I got to looking at different models, uh, different things that we could do in the service industry, and the, my wife, we were just dating at the time. She was doing home health, and, um, a lot of her customers, it was mostly hospice-type customers were- Mm-hmm ... they were passing away, and it was a rough, uh, time for her, and it, it just looks like a hard business for anybody that gets close to their clients. Um- Sure ... and, uh, so we just, she's like, "I don't know that I can keep doing this." And, uh, and I said, "Well, here's an idea. Let's just start a cleaning company." And, um, so she said, "Okay," and, um, "Whatever you think." So over supper, I started a cleaning company. Um, and our first month in business, which was June 10 years ago, uh- Okay ... we sold $310 worth of service the whole month. Okay. And she was like, "I don't, I don't think this is gonna work." And I said, "Well, let's just, um, let's just hang on for a minute. I think this will work. We just need to, need to keep on." And, um, 10 years later, we've got, um, on any given day, 10 to 15 employees. Great. So, um, did you have any formal cleaning experience, your wife have any formal cleaning experience? Mm-mm. 'Cause, you know, a lot of companies that start, a lot of companies that get started in the cleaning space do not have any formal training. Did you? None. Yeah. Other than what my mama taught me when I was growing up. Right. Yeah. That was the extent of it. But- And then we all have our preferences on products and ways to do things and whatnot, and you're right. It's probably taught down, brought down from generations of watching our parents and grandparents do these tasks. It's- I learned real early in our process that that was a problem. Yeah. Uh, because I, I knew that there were ways to do things, and I knew that there was ways that we were doing it and it was wrong. Yep. Uh, so, uh, we, we took, uh, took the chance to go to an, uh, CRC class- Okay ... in Atlanta, uh, the home technician, um, certification. This is, this is part of, um, ISSA? Yeah. Love that. Good. No, so that was a three or four day experience, and that was, that was beneficial. We still use that today. I still use that manual today, uh, to go back and, well, we build our SOPs and our processes. Yep. Uh, we all go back to that manual. Um, so that got us on the right track, and, um- And that kind of, and the biggest problem I think we have is when you hire a new cleaner is breaking them from those habits that they developed over years or, or going off information that they picked up that's, you know, Facebook hacks and- Yeah and things just are not, they just don't work. And, you know, you can wind up damaging somebody's, um, furniture or surfaces. So we, uh, we have a really strict format on what we use and how we use it, and we don't venture from that. Um. That's excellent. Do you prefer to hire new technicians that don't have any cleaning experience as a job? Because everybody cleans in life, but- Yeah, I w- I'd rather have somebody that don't know. Uh, the problem I run into when I've hired people that's worked for another cleaning service, um That their training is probably worse than mine. I don't really feel like mine's dialed in like I want it until I get somebody that's come from another company, and I'm like, "Well, maybe mine's not near as bad as I thought it was." Mm-hmm. Um, uh, you know, because they, they come in with these bad habits and, "Well, this is how we done it over here, and this is how we, they done it." And, and I said, "I don't know how they get by doing that, but that's, that's not how we do it at Classic Clean." And breaking those habits are, are really, really hard. Yeah, I agree. Um, so you and I both engage in janitorial services, and if we can kind of, 'cause we've already mentioned ISSA, and, um, here on the show- Yeah ... um, I, I, I love to talk about this sort of thing because definitely the huge company- Thank you ... and the huge podcast, we talk a lot about business and business growth and sales and marketing. But I'm really passionate about the actual craft of what we do, the deliverable itself, the operations, because I believe in creating a professional world, okay. Okay. That we're, that we are all, like, so that we have a really good business, um, playing field, if you will. And so let's just kind of jump into the training a little bit specific to janitorial. Um, with the resources like you discovered in ISSA, you know, there is, these training certifications and platforms are widely available. Um, and for the people that I've found that I've hired that have maybe been custodians before, janitors before, or had cleaning experience, I have found when they take these courses online and they get their certification, that they're kind of like, "Whoa, I didn't know all that." It kind of breaks them down and builds them back up because they really introduce the science behind the methods and the products and the, you know, the, the cleaning supplies and whatnot. Um, so I think there's a lot to that. I really, I just want to applaud you for, for using those resources. Oh, thank you. We've, uh, one of the first, and we just started redoing some of our training programs to make them in just Classic Clean specific. Yeah. Um, we've used some of those programs, and then, but we've, we've taken them and we've, uh, begged, borrowed, and stolen from everybody else's programs and, and built our own that is specific to just my company and the products that we use. Um, and so we, we kind of dial it down instead of, uh- Watching videos or training videos that- Yeah ... kind of cover it for everybody. We've taken that and said, "No," th- we narrowed it really down and said, "These are the four or five products that we use, and this is what we use them on, and this is how we use them," and, you know, dial it right down to our process. And the first lesson that they get is the chemistry of clean. Perfect. That is the first lesson, and I'm like, "You, if you don't understand this, you're not gonna understand anything else we're gonna talk about. So we need to learn, you know, y- you need to go back to school and learn what the pH scale is and how it works." Mm-hmm. "And, and we'll start right there." And then from then on, uh, when they grab that, it's, they understand why we use this product here and not there. And, and I think when they get that solid base of knowledge, that this prevents you from, uh, you know, using something acidic on, on a marble top or somewhere and destroying a tabletop, 'cause they understand the science of why I tell them we don't do that. Instead of just, you know, that's his rule, it's science and this is why we do it, and it just cuts down on a lot of arguments and what I call people wanting to leave the reservation and go their own way and do their own thing. So- No, I, I love that, Thomas. Good for you. And you're right, it is, the science of cleaning is, there's, it's, it's on a pH scale, it's on the periodic table of elements. It's all right there, right? Yeah. Um, so yeah, I really applaud you for that, and I appreciate you sharing that. Outside of janitorial... Oh, l- let's just stay on janitorial for a minute. What types of janitorial accounts do you have? Do you do mu- municipalities? Do you do schools? What does that look like for, for your company? Most of our janitorial is, uh, small to medium sized offices. Okay. Um, and we do a couple of bigger industrial facilities that we provide seven day a week service to. Um, we've done some healthcare facilities. Um, and then, um- Um, we, we don't do a lot of school work, but we do some, um, school work, uh, maybe to help get them caught up and when new schools are opening. Um, and we do a lot of post-construction clean, uh, in that, in that realm. We've got a couple contractors that do a lot of school work, so we do a lot of that post-construction stuff when schools are doing some renovations in the summer. Um, that's a... There's a three-month span there that's probably a pretty big time of the year for us. Great. And do your contracts for, you know, let's say a manufacturing facility, do they usually run around three years? What does an an- annual or a, a typical contract look like? Well, now people are gonna disagree with this, but I'm old school and we still do it on a handshake. Um- Okay ... I generally ask, um, you know, if you're gonna do something different, that you give us a 30-day written notice. But- Okay ... um, you know, usually, um, usually my clients stay a pretty good while. Um- Well, it sounds like you have a very good relationship with them, and that's wonderful. I mean, that is the good old way of doing business. Um, and I'm sure that there's a time in you've experience where you have to dot the I's and cross the T's in a formal written agreement and whatnot. Um, but you know, in a way, Thomas, it's kinda nice to know that there's still business that transpires like that in America today. Well- There's something very comforting about that ... we still do a lot of our business on a handshake. We don't require a lot of contracts. Um, you know, and I just feel like if, if my word's not good enough for you, then, um, then we don't need to be doing business. Right. Okay. Um, so but as far as... Okay. So really then once the hand is shaken and you've picked up a new manufacturing facility, then it's just ongoing until there's some type of an issue or they want to change or there is any type of change. Yeah. And most of my facilities have some sort of agreement they want from me saying that we will... And mostly it's, it's a one-way street. They're wanting me to say that I'm at least gonna stay a year or two years. So- Okay ... usually whatever they have is, uh, we'll sign and move on. But I don't, uh, I don't try to lock somebody into a contract. If they're not happy, they're not happy. So, uh- You're gonna know about it Yeah. And that, that just makes for a bad situation for everybody. So I'd just as soon, let's just all get out of it if... And, and I've had some clients that are just hard to deal with, and I was glad to see them go. Um, you know, so- What's your longest standing, uh, uh, relationship? How many years? I don't know. We've, uh I think we've still got some clients that we had when we started. Great. Or picked up relatively soon after. Uh, so, you know, we've been here 10 years. I'm gonna say we've got clients that we've been servicing eight, nine years. Great. Yeah, that, that is a great relationship. And with that, the beauty of recurring revenue, and you're talking about daily, weekly recurring revenue, and the business model behind what we're talking about specifically with janitorial services, that is one of the primary reasons why we got into doing it. It sort of fell in our lap because we were a quality service provider of cleaning services, and there was a demand for it, and the opportunities came about. But I learned very quickly that being able to write a budget and having this revenue to depend on outside of exterior cleaning services, where there's a lot of seasonality, as you know, it was, it created a really great baseline, and I started out with, "Can I just get enough recurring revenue in the door through janitorial services to pay all my fixed expenses?" Yeah. And it kind of has evolved from there, and it's gone up and down, but, um, I, I love it. Um, are there any other benefits while we're on janitorial? I'd like to move on to your other services, but, um, are there any other benefits that you see? What, what do you really value in the janitorial space? Basically the steadiness of, you know, those places, they need us every week. Uh, the check comes every, every month. And, um, you know, it's not like our maid service that, you know, you get cancellations and people need to move, and it allows for us to have a pretty steady income stream. Uh, it's steady work for the employees, and, uh, it's just a really good constant steady of income, stream of income that we can use to, you know, it, it keeps us afloat when things slow down elsewhere. Um- Yeah. It's easy to predict. Yeah. There, it's easy to predict. It's, it's, gets, becomes quite simple. It's a simple model. It's a simple business model. Um, it's, it always amazes me the revenue that we can do with a fraction of the employees on the janitorial side than the exterior cleaning side. Do you find the same thing? Yeah. Uh, but I, you know, it does, uh, that's the reason I like the diversity we have. When you do have a client that has to quit, we did have a client that, uh, that when they imposed the tariffs, it really, it really ha- put a damper on their business, and so they had to discontinue services and try to... You know, and that was a five-night-a-week job. Um, so when you have big clients and you have big contracts, you have big losses if, you know, somebody has to step out for a reason, and that was, wasn't because of anything we'd done, but, uh, it's just the, just the market. Sure. Um, so you have to, you have to take the good with the bad. So there's, when there's big gains, there's also big losses when those clients have to quit for some reason. Sure. And we know from COVID, which that could be a whole podcast in itself, and I don't really like going backwards in COVID, but man, in the janitorial space, was there not so many changes that we had to pivot from and into? I mean, it was, it, it was wild. It was. And I mean, it was a big boom for us. I mean, we picked up a lot of extra- Same work and, um, you know, it, uh, we were blessed. But, you know, it was a situation where we're in a small rural area, and when people really started thinking about it, like, "Well, who are we gonna call?" There's not a lot of people that, uh, that could step in and, and, and do those kind of things for them. Right. They had questions and nobody else, um, you know, the people that, the fly-by-night people that, uh, you know, Sally with a bucket couldn't answer their questions about how they were gonna disinfect this facility and how we could manage this. Um, so they had to, they had to rely on people like us to, to keep open and get it done. I love your, uh, female reference of Sally with a bucket, 'cause on the window cleaning side, it's usually Bucket Bob. Um, so that's, that's pretty fun. So also Classic Clean does housekeeping. We do. Residential. Yep. We do residential maid service. That's how we actually started. Okay. Um, and then that just kind of grew into a few offices and, uh, so that's how we kind of ventured over into the, uh, janitorial space. And then that led to a, um, phone call from a p- A builder who needed, uh, a post-construction clean on a, on a building that a Japanese company was buying, and we had never done a post-construction clean, didn't really know what that entailed. We were still young and new at this, and, and I don't hardly say no to anything, so I said, "Sure, yeah, we'll do that." Um, and we probably was a little bit overkill, um, 'cause they came back and they said, you know, this- the Japanese, uh, company said, "This is the cleanest building they have ever taken over." Mm. Um, so that really, um, helped us move forward with that, uh, construction outfit, and, uh, we do a lot of their buildings now. Uh, they don't hardly even ask us for quotes. They just say, "It'll be ready this week, and y'all just come and knock it out." What a dream. So that... And that led me to window cleaning, 'cause there were some windows in one of those jobs that we were still cleaning them with a, by hand with a rag and, um, and I was like, "There has got to be a better way." I was standing on a ladder in mud- Mm ... you know, sink down six or eight inches, and it wouldn't stay up straight, and I, and I was on top of that thing cleaning windows. I thought, "There's gotta be, there's gotta be a better way, uh, to do this." And, uh, so that's when I started diving into the window cleaning, and s- and so that led me down another rabbit hole of window cleaning that we added to our list of services. Yeah. Um, same way with pressure washing. You know, it just, uh, it was a request by a client, "We need this," and I'm like, "Well, sure, why not?" So, you know, now we do window cleaning, um, and then, uh, soft wash and pressure wash. And, um, so we've developed a full range of services, um, all because, uh, my wife didn't have a job. I mean, um, i- yeah. And you serve a major need in your community and your market. And everything that you just described, 'cause all of these services from the interior to the exterior, they're all so incredibly complementary of each other. And so what you just described to me and your, and our audience is that you've basically developed this menu of services that you can provide a turnkey cleaning package for any building or residential home that satisfies all their cleaning needs from the inside to the out. We do, and that's part of our, uh, marketing pro- you know, we're a one-stop shop. Um, we can do whatever you need. Um, we done a home last week. Uh, the people travel a lot, and they've not been, uh, home for a good while, so they needed a, a deep clean on the inside. And while we were there, uh, she, uh- She said something about she seen one of our cards she got in the mail about our window cleaning. And so she's like, "Well, I want you to do my windows too, but we gotta wait till we get our pressure washing done." And I said, "Well, we can do your pressure washing." Yep. So we got a deep clean, a pressure washing, a window clean out of that one customer. Yep. And- Building the ticket, baby. You're building the ticket and she was able to do it with one call. You know, one stop and, and I, I can take care of all of this, and I don't have to deal with it no more. Uh, they'll show up, they'll take care of it, and, you know, they'll send us a bill. Great. Do you rely predominantly on existing client referrals as your primary new lead source, or do you have a sales team? Are you sales? Are you going out trying to actively prospect new clients? What does that look like for Classic Clean today? A lot of it is word of mouth. Um, but we do a variety of advertising. We don't really have a sales staff, uh, that goes out and actively, um, sales. We have tried that in the past, and it- it's not really worked out for me, uh, mostly because I think I just don't have the right people- Mm-hmm uh, in that role. Um, but we use a variety of stuff. Um, we use a lot of billboards, uh, that work well for us here. That's great. Especially digital billboards, if you've got them in your area, they work good for us 'cause we can tailor that, uh, ad specific to that market or whatever service we're trying to sell. Today, I just hired some, uh, new guys and started a new window crew. Um, so we're really, uh, slinging the ads out for window cleaning right now, and we're trying to move into a different market, um, in a bigger city that's about an hour away. So we're really, uh, slinging a lot of different marketing techniques down that way. Everything from Google Ads to some billboards to, uh- Uh, some Syngium cards. Uh, we just started with those guys, and we're, we're dropping some of those predictive targeting cards. Um, and those are starting to hit, and we're starting to see some, some return on those, so. Great. Looking forward to that. So with this new market that you're moving into in the larger city, are you, um... Is your plan to keep your current location as your, um, like your, your home office, and then kind of run it satellite where you have maybe just an operation shop there with trucks, or are you running back and forth in the meantime probably, right? Until you build up enough clientele in that area. What, how are you envisioning this, this, uh- Uh-huh this working? We still book and everything out of the home office. I call it the Classic Clean world headquarters. Okay. So, uh, we still book and schedule out of here, but my guys actually live in Bowling Green. Um, and that's the market we're trying to work into. We already do a little stuff down there, but w- we're really putting some effort into getting there full time. Um, but they live down there, so they have a truck and all the equipment they need, and, um, and they kind of... Their workload, they come back and forth. Uh, sometimes they'll be back in, in Tompkinsville, and sometimes they're in between. Uh, but we try to keep them- Uh, close by so they can swing by and restock with what they need here at the office. Um, but, um, we would like to have an office in Bowling Green at some point, um, hopefully by the end of the year. Um, but we're really working mostly with the window cleaning. They're trying to establish that and get a foothold in, and get some route work started. Um, put an office in, and then as we can get, um, situated and comfortable, start working into the, uh, the janitorial business and, and the maid service in Bowling Green. Great. I hear a lot, and other, even other people I've interviewed on this podcast, but especially in the commercial space, and probably residential as well, but window cleaning is a great in to developing the clus- customer, and then being able to sell the other services to build the ticket, like what Classic Clean can deliver. Um, so very smart. Thank you. Yeah. It, uh, we cl- uh, window cleaning is a good, a good way to go in. It doesn't take very long. You knock out a good set of windows. Uh, the housewife is happy. She's bragging about how great her windows look and, you know, it's, it's instant gratification for the client. Uh, when they come in, they're like, "Oh, wow, I just love these windows." Um, then, and if they're happy, um, you know, it doesn't take very long for you can sell them on other services. Or sometimes selling them on maid service, you know, they're, they're always a little skeptical, especially if they hadn't used a service before, and they're going on a hunt. A- and you can find something wrong with every cleaning job if you really want to. Of course. And so maid service is, um, um, it's a little more risky, you know, to try to win over a client right off the bat because it's, there's just so many things that, uh, can go wrong with a house cleaning. Um, but windows, if they'll knock them out and they're sparkling, and they've got them in a good mood, you can go ahead and, and sell them something else right there. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. One thing I've always loved about window cleaning in my experience is it is a want and not as much of a need. On a commercial level, it can be, it can be part of, you know, the requirement of meeting health code and all that sort of thing. But on a residential level, when we show up at a customer's door, they want us there. It's not like an HVAC company where a piece of equipment broke down. They're like, "Oh, crap, I got to call the HVAC company," and they're all disgruntled when you show up. So that is one thing that I've always loved about window cleaning. Um, and you're right. I mean, it's so easy to deliver that instant gratification, the sparkle. It makes the interior of the home feel so much cleaner. So we're on the same page. Yeah. Um, what is your, what would you say has been the- the number one thing that you have really done well at that's attributed to your growth. And it sounds to me like you have a very, um You still have the size company that you have a very good handle on your staff. You have that, that g- size staff that you, um, obviously you've developed your service as well and the menu of your service as well. What do you think is the, the biggest thing to your success so far? Uh, showing up on time. Ah. I, I think- So easy I think that this industry is so easy. All you have to do is answer the phone and show up when you say you're gonna be there. Um, majority of the r- maid service clients that we have, if they've used somebody else in the past, whether it be another company or an individual that cleans, and when you talk to them and ask them, you know, "Hey, what's your biggest pet peeve you've had?" Or, "What's your biggest problem you've had with cleaners in the past?" Uh, it's not that they didn't do a good job. It's not, uh, anything to do with the work. It's that they didn't show up, or they canceled all the time. Um, I will move heaven and earth to make sure that we do not cancel a, a client. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes, you know, it's inevitable and you, you have to, but, um, we will make sure that we were there. If we're not gonna be there at the time we told you we were gonna be there, we're calling, um, sending you a message. Um, you know, s- letting you know that, "Hey, we're, something's happened. We're 30 minutes late. There's traffic. There's whatever, um, that's going on, and we're gonna be a little behind." And just keep everybody informed. Um, and that's all they're asking for, is if, "Just keep us notified. If you're not gonna be here at 10:00, let us know." Uh, it's not a problem, but, um, I think that's the biggest key that we've had to our success, is, um, is being there on time. And if you've, if you're a fly on the wall in this office, and we're not getting out the door on time, they, they know Thomas is gonna be coming out of the office and, and scaring them along, 'cause I want them out the door, and we want to be there on time. And, um, you know, we like to, we like to be there and do what we say we're gonna do. And I think that's, that's key. Way to keep it simple. Yeah. You are, you are 100% right. I can go back 20 years, and clients, some of the best clients on a lifetime revenue standpoint have said to us, "You, you do what you say you're gonna do. You show up on time, and you communicate." Therefore, the relationship lives on for a long time. And- Yeah, and, you know, we try not to overbook a day. Uh, y- you can get greedy and try to squeeze in more and more and more, and push and push and push. But just as soon as you start pushing a client off, uh, it just, you just go down a rabbit hole of problems. So I would rather do one less job the day and make sure that everybody's happy is try to squeeze in one more and, and ruin a client. Um, because it's, you know, it's the recurring revenue. It's a one-off window cleaning, but- Mm-hmm ... if you make them happy, and then we can work them into doing it on a quarterly basis or just get them on an annual basis. You know, the long-term benefits is, is not worth, you know, trying to cram in one more and pushing a client off somewhere on the end of a day. Hmm. Yeah, that's great advice. So what would you say is the most difficult thing that you're experiencing at this time? In my area, and I'm sure it's everywhere, it's labor. Yeah. Um, and it's not that we can't find people to work, it's just we can't find the right kind of people. Um, we struggle with that. Um, I, and I wish I had a, an answer that, uh, really works, but I don't. It's, it's the matter of, um- You know, I, you know, you used to try to hire people and you interview them and you try to pick the best one, and I've just kinda got lazy and I'm just like, "You know what? You've all three applied. We're just gonna hire y'all three, and be here Monday at 8:00, and let's just see who shows up." And, you know, half of them won't even show up. Mm. Uh, you know, so they kinda weed themselves out. And I was... I just quit wasting my time trying to find some way to sort out the best from the worst and- Mm uh, you know, just the ones that meet the criteria, say, "Hey, show up here." Uh, and you'd be surprised how many of them won't. You may not. You... But they just won't even show up. Um- Right. But that's our... And 'cause we're a small community, 2,300 people in town, 10,000 people in the county. Right. So our labor pool is, is pretty limited. Um, but we do find some... Then some, most of the people that's been with me ironically have been here for, since the beginning. We've had a lot of people here that's been with me since we started. Um, so keeping them is not really the problem, it's just adding to- Mm ... we have, um, that can produce the kind of quality of work, uh, that we're looking for. Sure. Yeah, there's, there's, there is so much into hiring and training. Um, and let me tell you, Thomas, you are not alone. It is every company that I talk to, my own included, this is one of the largest pain points, especially I think in the labor service industry, no matter what that, that home service or, or commercial service is. Um, and one of, one of the biggest things that has helped us in the recent past is the development, true development of our core values, and understanding that we need to hire, fire, reward, and recognize by those core values Because you're right, especially in this, uh, like the kind of, uh, employee avatar that we are attracting in a cleaning company. Um, it could be ages anywhere from young 20s or 18 all the way up to maybe like mid-30s. You could get older than that. Um, and these are people that are either looking for a break, maybe they're trying to overcome some hardships they've had in their past before. You know, a lot of times we have to give people a chance, and we're taking a risk, and there's so much expense in bringing them in and training them to know if they're gonna sh- if they're gonna show up, like you said, or stay. And we really started to cater our interview questions and the hiring process itself around our core values, and I have to say it's made a big difference. Um, but you're right, the labor, labor is a, is a, I think, across the nation, is a, a huge pain point for companies like ours. Um, is there any one thing you can think of that you do that, that might be a good tip for listeners in regard to hiring? Um- 'Cause I have a feeling you're very personable on an interview. I have a feeling that you sit down and really dive deep with people that you're interviewing. I could be wrong, but I'm just taking a wild guess. I, I do. I like to know who I'm getting. Um, and, you know, we have a lot of people coming here that have some sort of past that, uh, that they're having to work around. So, so we don't use anybody with, that's had any drug-related issues, uh, shoplifting or any kind of theft in our, in our maid service. Yep. Uh, you know, but in our janitorial division, we can be a little more lenient on who we hire there. Mm-hmm. Uh, you've gotta have a really clean background, uh, to work in our maid service. Mm-hmm. But, uh, to clean a factory floor, uh, not so much. Uh, we can be more forgiving there. So we have to give some second chances to some people. But, um, we do, when they come in and put in an interview or they apply through our website online or whatever, uh, when they come in, we do give them, um- A form that kind of just goes over the non-negotiables, uh- Great that says, you know, "We expect you to be well-groomed," or, "We expect you to be here on time. And we, you know, we expect these things." And we make them sign off that they've read it, and that they check the box that, "Hey, this is, this is gonna be, these are possibilities that may happen. You may have to work on a weekend." Uh, we do a lot of Airbnb types of cleans, uh, in our maid service, so there's a lot of weekend work, especially through vacations in summertime. Um, so we just put that out there front and center right off the bat and say, "Here's, here's what we're gonna, you're gonna have to do. Um, these are not negotiable." Um, and there's no around it. We have, we were, no smoking in any of our vehicles, uh, you know, because we've had that problem in the past. And, and they have to sign it and say, "I understand these are the rules that we're gonna follow." Uh, and I had a girl come in, and she was really wanting a job, uh, just a week or so ago, and she filled in the application, and I give, slid that paper across, and, um, she read over them. And, um, and I had several I was interviewing at the same time, and when I handed them all back in, she did not sign one, one page. She didn't initial any of them. None of them. Yep. And, you know, but she was like, "I'm, I'll be here. You know, start Monday, I'll be here." And I was like, "Well, I didn't..." You know? I was like, "Well, we'll see you Monday." But I know right then when she didn't sign any of those- Uh-huh ... she wasn't gonna show up. Right. You know, when they, when they see that they, they're serious and I can't, you know, jerk them around and, and, and I've been real lenient in the past, uh, and that's all that done is cost me money. Right. You know, 'cause I... They give you a sad story, and they've had this problem or that problem, and I feel sorry for them and try to help. And, uh, uh, all that's done is cause just heartache and pain and, and put more stress on the other employees. And so I've just, um, talked to some of my more senior employees, and I was like, "Listen, we're not, we're not putting up with this anymore. It's too much on me. It's too much on you. If they're not showing up, um..." Because I've got a girl that runs one of my facilities, and I said, "If they're not showing up, um, and they're late every day, we're putting them on the road." Mm-hmm. I know we don't want to be short-handed, but you know, you can't rely on these people, because there's gonna be a day when you have a problem and you need to be gone, and we can't rely on these other people to show up and do their part. Uh, so if they're not gonna be a team player, and they're not gonna sign that, and they're not gonna pay attention and, and Move on, get rid of them. And, um- Yeah ... 'cause it's not, it's not their house I'm trying to save, it's mine, you know? And you've got 10 or 12, 15 more people that, or however employees you have, they're dependent on me to make sure this machine runs well. And, um, you know, and if I let one person start bringing it down, then it affects the whole company and it affects everybody that works here. It affects everybody's paycheck, and it's... When you look at it from that prosp- that aspect, it's, it's not worth your risk to keep somebody like that on, so. Yeah, that's great. Um, clear expectations and documentation right in the interview process. That's very good. I, I wanna ask you a final question. Um, what at, for, uh, over these 10 years, can you think of any one thing that you wish you just would've done differently? If you would've done it different, it could've changed the whole trajectory of where you are today, or maybe some major mistake that you've made. Is there anything that comes to mind? Um I don't know. I, I think I would've probably done a better job of Building the systems early on. Mm-hmm. Good one. Um, we, we relied a lot on, um, you know, "I'm gonna show you how to do it, and then when we hire a second guy, I want you to show him what I showed you." And, uh, so much gets lost there. It's like a big game of telephone when you were kids and you passed the secret on. Yeah. It just never gets to the end like it did. Um, so I think that's probably my biggest, um, um, biggest problem is 'cause we, we didn't systemize that process from the beginning, and I think a lot of that was because I didn't have the maid service experience in the beginning, and I didn't know what I was even trying to systemize. Uh, eh, we did a lot of our other stuff. We systemized our quoting, we systemized, uh, our marketing, our, our branding. We done all that from the get-go. We, we built a brand before we ever had a job. Okay. But, um, there is some systematic things there with the SOPs that we didn't have in place when we started that looking back, um- I would, I would rather pushed off opening a month or two down the road- Mm-hmm spent my time doing the SOPs, uh, and things of that nature in the beginning. I think it would've made a huge difference. Well, Thomas, that's such a good one. You are probably way ahead of most of us listening, 'cause most of us listening developed SOPs along the way as the things came up, and we realized that they were issues. We realized we had to develop an SOP for them, and then you develop the SOP, and guess what? Now you have to hold people accountable to that SOP. You have to train the SOP. You have to make... You have to reiterate the SOP. Um, but you know what? You're absolutely right, and I think that, um, a lot of us, and not to any of our fault, I mean, this is the natural organic growth in a small business. We are learning as we go, and we are developing as we go through trial and error. Right. But one th- one thing that I love about our conversation is you and I have talked about three of the five leadership abilities. We've talked about simplification, being simple. Uh, we've talked about being predictive, and we've talked about systemizing. And so yeah, I think you're doing great, and you're, you're well on your way to tapping into that new Bowling Green market and, uh, and seeing some growth there. Love it. Thank you. I think, uh, you know, I think when we started, we just didn't really anticipate it getting to this point, uh, is why we didn't do some of these things sooner. And then when you get to this point, you're like, "Oh, I should have done that." Uh, and I, and I don't think, um- And we're in the process now of kinda going back over all that material that we've amassed over 10 years and saying, "What, uh, what can we, what do we need to go back and change now?" 'Cause so much has changed since we've done this, you know, uh, years and years ago. So I think it's a continual process of upgrading and making sure that the information you're putting out to your employees is, is up to date and it's accurate. Yeah. And, um, and we've... I, last week I've been relying on Claude. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, we've been just taking all of that stuff that we've had in files for years on the computer and just dumping it into Claude and saying, "Hey, combine all this and put it together for us, and let's put me on something." And we're going through and just, you know, hand-marking it and saying, "This needs to go, that needs to go, and we need to change this, and just update that." And trying to build a more streamlined system from the point of, uh, our operations manual to, um, SOPs to clean the facilities, to the inspection reports- Mm-hmm so it all flows and it's all continuous, uh, instead of, you know, you know, we've got SOPs written seven or eight, 10 years ago for this, and then we've got- Mm ... some more stuff here. Mm-hmm. So we'll bring it all in so that it flows, and so that if you follow this manual, um, then everything that happens after that as far as, uh, daily inspections, uh, monthly inspections, and all that flows, and it's, it's consistent from beginning to end. And I think that's gonna make a huge benefit, um, to our productivity and just making sure... And, and just worker satisfaction. I mean, when they're, um, when they get dinged for something that, um, they didn't do correctly and then you find out that, well, nobody told them how to do that- Mm-hmm ... uh, then it, it just, it creates bad blood everywhere. They don't wanna get dinged. I don't wanna, you know, have that, uh, bad black mark on their, um, on their mind while they're, you know... We just want it to be smooth. We want everybody to be happy. And, um, systemizing that and making it consistent across the board for everybody is, is gonna be, uh, our next, is our next step. Excellent. So now you just brought up a fourth leadership ability, which is structure. Good job. I love it. So awesome. So I wanna ask you, Thomas, you joined the Huge Mastermind how long ago? Um, I'm probably headed into my second year. Cool. Okay. And I know I've seen you in Nashville. What is the biggest benefit? What do you enjoy about being part of the Huge Mastermind community? Um, like I say, I like, I like information. Um, I like hearing what everybody else is doing. Uh, I like to compare notes. Um, and I mean, I have, um, friend groups here, other business owners in different sectors of home service industry that, you know, we have these conversations weekly of, "Hey, how are you doing with this? How are you doing with that? And how are you managing this?" And this, the mastermind just brings that to a grand scale where I can talk to people across a diverse group, uh, you know. And you're talking about, you know, different size companies, different size areas. Um, and it may be, um, you know, in our last mastermind meeting we was talking about some, uh, performance review management and things of that nature, and I thought, you know, that would be... That's something I could really bring back and integrate, uh, um, into the systems that I'm putting together now. Mm-hmm. And so we're gonna integrate that in. So it was just a little nugget, uh, that, um, you pick up at every meeting or, um, every conversation. There's always something there that you can bring back, and maybe you can't use it immediately, uh, 'cause I don't bring everything back, say, "Oh, I'm gonna go work on that right now." But I s- set it on the shelf and I say, "There's gonna be a date and time when that right there, I'm gonna need it." Right. Um, so it's sitting here and it's ready to go when, when I do. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I, I'm the same. I, I think I love it because I get introduced to, uh, like higher level business concepts that, you know, I never went to school for this stuff, right? Right. Um, and to have somebody, uh, like Mike Dalke be able to share the growth that he's experienced in his career, um, and bring that back to us and teach us, um, like I said, these business concepts, and there's just so much to know. And the information is so great. Um, so yeah. Yeah. And it's a very community feel, and we get to know each other really well and, um, next time I wanna make sure we sit at the table together. Sure. Yeah. Look forward to it. So thanks for the interview today. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we sign off? No, I just think that, um, you know, if you're listening and, and you're thinking about starting a home service industry or, um, or if you're struggling, I would say just, um, just hang on. It's, um... You know, the key's not to get excited. Uh, you're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days. You're gonna have good months, you're gonna have months that are, are not so well. But, uh- You know, just have a little faith and hang on. Uh, follow the systems. I, I read a lot of books. Um, and you don't have to... And I would say, you know, there's something that everybody does that you can take something away from. You don't have to follow somebody's system, uh- Right ... lock, stock, and barrel. But, uh, but I'm always interested in what somebody else is doing, what they've got to say, and there's always something there that you can take out and use at your home, um, office and, uh... But don't, uh, don't fall into the trap, I would say, of thinking you have to do it just like Joe did it, uh, 'cause Joe's in a different world. Joe's in a different market. Joe has different customers. Um- Yeah ... you know, I'm in a super small market. Um, 'cause I, I laugh when, you know, Sid said once that he's in a small market with 70,000 people, and I'm like, "Man, you don't know what a small market is." You know, we're meeting, we're meeting at the Arborland Hotel, and everybody in my, in my town can stay in this hotel tonight. That's a small market. Uh, but there's a lot of things that they talk about that, uh, I can bring back and use in a small market. Sure. Uh, that may not necessarily translate well other places, but, um, it's just you don't have to follow everybody's advice lock, stock, and barrel. Right. But you can and use it where you're at and make it work for you. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great advice. That is great advice. Um, I, I wanna just share how important it is in this conversation with you today... I mean, first of all, your words of encouragement are, I'm sure, very appreciated. But one thing that I've taken away from our conversation today that is so important, especially for companies that are trying to grow and scale and do all these hard things and push, push, push, is there is something extremely valuable that you've brought to us, and I'm gonna go back to the word simplicity. Keeping it simple is one of the most important things to do. Yep. We tend to create so much stuff. I'll be the first to tell you, I created a business that was very complicated, and now I'm trying to simplify. And, and so if you can keep it simple, I believe you'll be much happier and much more successful. And I really applaud you for that 'cause I c- I can, I just sense by talking to you that you've got simplicity down pat, Thomas. I like simple. Uh- I see that ... you know, people have to be able to understand it. Um, and we've tried to get more complicated, and I seen real quick this is not, this don't work. They can't... It's too much. Keep it simple. Uh, make sure they got the right information that they need to know, but y- don't try to overload them. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Thomas, and I look forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. Um, for any of our listeners... Oh, I have one more question. Mm-hmm. You said you like to read. What's your, what's your top recommended book? Oh, wow. Um, I read a lot of stuff in the past, uh, that... And I, but I'll tell you two that I bet probably nobody mentions on here. Um, one of them is, um, a book I read years ago, Good to Great. Mm. Um, you know, and, and it's about companies, um, and how they grew and how they failed, and the basis of it is do one thing and do it well. Yeah. Um, you know, so that's, um, that's a good one. And then, uh, one that I guarantee nobody brought up is, uh, and I, I read it on a whim, but it was Sun Tzu's The Art of War. Ah. Uh, it was written by a Chinese general 2,000 years ago- Okay ... about the art of war and his concepts of, um, how to w- win battles. Um, and when you read it out of the context of a business owner, and one of his concepts was you don't ever wanna crowd your enemy and, um, corner them because they will fight harder. Mm. You have to give them a route of escape. Um, so that really stuck with me when I, when I build estimates for, uh, customers, uh, you wanna provide a proposal. Y- you know, always provide that route. Um, where if they're not buying your highest price, always provide that route, uh, maybe to get them in at a lower ticket price. Um, you know, and, you know, if you're having a bad employee, give them a route. Give them a route that you want them to go a- and make it easy, uh, for them to exit the battlefield. Uh, you know, they don't put up near as much fight. Um, but that's a good book and, um, they teach it in colleges and universities all around the world. Uh, but you, if you read it with a context in the middle aspect from a business owner- Yeah ... there's, there's a lot to be gathered right there. That's excellent advice. I mean, I've, I've ha- I've had a friend one time that was, that's a corporate guy, and I remember him saying, "You always look for the out." Yep. And I think, um, I mean, that, that is such great advice. I'm so glad I asked this question because, um, that's a huge takeaway. And you're right, you don't wanna corner people. Um, you wanna make sure that you provide something very easy for them to be able to disengage with if they want. I think it puts less tension on the relationship. But also when you first said it in regard, I was thinking about competition. When you said you don't wanna corner them, you wanna give them a way to escape Um, I mean, I kind of think about that in regard to competition as well Yeah. I mean, if you're looking to buy a competitor or, or, or another business, you know, there's, uh... Or maybe there's somebody out there that you're just having a hard time with and, you know, they're, you're struggling, uh, to deal with them and they're cutting into your market share. I mean, you can either fight them or you can buy them. Right. You know? Right. Maybe, maybe instead of fighting them, you need to get your checkbook out and look for a way to, to buy them out of your way. It may be the best decision you made all day. So there's always a, there's always a route. And, um, and Sun Tzu said, you know, "Never, never back your enemy into a corner, because he will just fight that much harder." Yeah. Or you can come to the Huge Mastermind and you can learn from Mike Dalke about how to present revenue stream agreements so you don't have to get your checkbook out. Well, I was gonna leave that for Mike. That's his, that's his story. Um- I love it. My job's just to get to the meeting. Yeah, no, this is so cool. I'm so glad you shared that with us. Um, we're definitely gonna have the two books that you mentioned, Thomas, in the show notes, uh, so that our listeners can access those easy. And again, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I know you so much better, and so will everybody in the Mastermind and out there in the window cleaning and pressure washing and janitorial world. And, um, you've, you really provided a lot of insight today. I really appreciate it. Well, I was... Good to be here. I enjoyed it. Great. Thanks, Thomas. We're signing off. Have a great one. You too. Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, wanna let you know the mission for the Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help, uh, blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business, and we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called The Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the Huge Foundation's education platform. That has... We've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you, and every month we do, uh, a topical webinar, and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners, and it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the Huge Convention or the Huge Convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd in 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business, and it's got... We've got, um, education, world-class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business, and it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward- A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a m- mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to thehugeconvention.com and scroll down, click on the Freedom Path, or of course, you can find the links here in the show notes. So sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you like the show, go ahead... I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. Man, it would really mean the world to us. It would help other people, and as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode