Huge Transformations

In this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef talks with serial entrepreneur and HireBus CEO Brandon Vaughn about transforming an owner-dependent operation into a scalable, AI-ready business. After growing his family’s exterior cleaning company from a one-person operation to more than 70 employees, building Wise Coatings into a multi-location franchise system, and launching multiple other ventures, Brandon has learned that growth depends on capturing knowledge, communicating a clear vision, and empowering capable people to execute it.
Brandon explains how business owners can “download their brains” by documenting their decision-making, processes, and experience. With today’s recording and AI tools, creating useful playbooks no longer requires spending hours writing manuals—but businesses must establish the right knowledge infrastructure before AI can deliver meaningful results.
The conversation also explores irresistible marketing offers, the warning signs behind hustle culture, strategic hiring, and the founder’s dangerous habit of becoming the “chief answer officer.” Brandon’s message is clear: sustainable growth comes from preventing problems, developing critical thinkers, and building a company that can thrive without depending on its owner for every answer.Resources:
Brandon Vaughn on LinkedIn
HireBus
HireBus company background and leadership
HireBus on LinkedIn
Brandon Vaughn’s CONQUER profile
Wise Coatings
Volt Vikings
All-Clean SoftWash
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind information page
Huge Foundations Facebook group
Huge Foundations education platform trial
 

In this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with Tom Reber—former U.S. Marine, successful painting contractor, author, and founder of The Contractor Fight—to explore why sustainable business growth starts with the owner.
Tom shares his “Strong You, Strong Home, Strong Business” philosophy, explaining why entrepreneurs must prioritize their health, relationships, and personal standards before expecting their companies to thrive. He also challenges business owners to stop measuring success by revenue alone. A truly successful business should generate profit, create freedom, and improve your life—not consume it.
The conversation also dives into confident, ethical selling. Tom explains how his Shin-Fu sales process helps contractors uncover what customers genuinely value, discuss money early, qualify leads before investing time in estimates, and protect their margins. His message applies far beyond the trades: listen before pitching, sell through curiosity, practice difficult conversations, and never lower your price simply because silence makes you uncomfortable.
For service-based business owners and marketers, this episode is a powerful reminder that better results come from stronger standards, profitable systems, deliberate practice, and the willingness to become the person your next level requires.Resources:
The Contractor Fight
Tom Reber on LinkedIn
The Contractor Fight on Facebook
Contractor Fight TV on YouTube
Winning the Contractor Fight by Tom Reber
Shin-Fu Sales Training
Command Your Profit workshop with Tom Reber
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind information page
Huge Foundations Facebook group
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Thomas Dodson, owner of Classic Clean Company in south central Kentucky, to talk about building a simple, steady, and highly trusted cleaning business in a small market.
Thomas shares how Classic Clean started almost by accident after his wife was ready to move on from home health work. What began with just $310 in sales during their first month has grown into a 10-year business offering residential cleaning, janitorial services, post-construction cleaning, window cleaning, pressure washing, soft washing, and other complementary cleaning services.
This conversation is especially valuable for home service business owners who are trying to create dependable recurring revenue while keeping their operations simple and professional. Thomas explains why janitorial work became such a powerful foundation for the company, how recurring commercial accounts helped stabilize revenue, and why training technicians on the actual science of cleaning is so important.
Sheila and Thomas also talk about ISSA training, SOPs, employee hiring, core values, showing up on time, clear expectations, billboards, Google Ads, predictive targeting cards, expanding into a new market, and using window cleaning as a strong entry point to sell additional services.
The biggest takeaway: business does not have to be overcomplicated to be successful. If you answer the phone, show up when you say you will, communicate clearly, train your people well, and keep your systems simple, you can build a trusted company that lasts.
 
Resources:
 
Classic Clean Company
Classic Clean Company Facebook
ISSA
Cleaning Industry Management Standard / Training Resources
Claude AI
Good to Great by Jim Collins
The Art of War by Sun Tzu
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider Newsletter Signup
The Huge Insider Podcast Downloadable Action Guide
The Huge Mastermind Information Page
Huge Foundations Facebook Group
 
 
Transcript:
 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We're your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. It is Sheila Schmeltzer, your host and contributor, coming to you from southeastern North Carolina and my home shop facility. I apologize if it's a little echoey, but this is the real deal. Uh, today we've got Thomas Dodson. Thomas owns Classic Clean Company out of southeastern Kentucky, and he's been in business for 10 years, and we're gonna get to Thomas today. Welcome, Thomas. Good morning. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. Good. Um, well, it's exciting to have you on the show. I know that, uh, this is one of your first debuts on a podcast, and you told me earlier that you like to listen to the Huge Transformation and listen to everybody's stories that we interview. I do. I, I like to listen to them, especially when I travel. I like to turn on the podcast and listen to everybody's stories. Uh, it's interesting to see where they're at, where they came from. Um, it's always interesting, and everybody has a really diverse story. Um- Yeah. That's great. Um, tell me, can you... Is there anyone that kind of stands out, where you said, "Wow, I learned a lot from that," or, "I really resonate with that"? Is there any particular episode? Not really right off the top of my head, but I'm a, I'm a connoisseur of information. I, I read and listen and, and try to gather information constantly, whether it's books or industry material or, you know, just somebody else I know that has, has done well in whatever industry they are. Or, or, and even somebody that's not done so well. I mean, sometimes there's a lot to be learned from the guy who didn't do well. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, so I'm always consuming information, and I always dig, uh, something out of every podcast that I find helpful. Yeah, I agree. Are you like me? 'Cause I went to college but dropped out. Did you go to college and finish, or do you have a degree in anything? I went to college with an animal science degree. Uh- Okay ... and I probably, like, um- 15 hours graduating. Okay. Um- You had 15 hours to go? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I... And the small town that I'm in, I grew up in the automotive industry. Um- Okay ... and we had a Chevrolet dealership here, and that's, I couldn't wait to get back, uh, and, and get to work in the dealership. And so, uh, you know, just as soon as I could break free, um, I broke free. Um, but I, I liked college. I went, I learned, um... I took the classes I wanted to take and learned what I wanted to learn, and brought that back with me when I came, so, um, but it, it's, it was a good experience. Um- Good. Good. Yeah, so, um, but you said animal... Animal science. Animal science? Yeah. Okay. So I just need to know real fast, we're gonna move on, but what does one do when they have an animal science degree? Um, you know, you're, you're talking about nutritionists, you're talking about- Ah ... uh, anything in the, in the agricultural industry related to animal. Got it. Okay. Great. Okay. I can see that in southeastern Kentucky. Yeah. I can see that, yeah. Okay. So how did you get in to starting Classic Clean, and tell us about Classic Clean, who you are today, and how you got started. Well, like s- earlier, nobody aspires to start a janitorial service. It wasn't in my bingo card when I went to college. Uh, I never, never dreamed of being, uh, in this industry, but, uh, I grew up in the automotive industry in a small community, and there got to be a lot of pressure from the economy and from General Motors and others, you know, to kind of get rid of their small dealers. So they, they made life hard for their small dealers in rural areas. And so we closed our dealership and then went, uh, spent some time in the trucking industry, uh, then done a little bit of manufacturing in a building that we had. We built some farm equipment and stuff. But it seemed like every time I got into a new venture, I was always running into, uh, economic pressures that I could not control. Um- Okay ... you know, so, um, the more I looked and, and the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, the service industry is where our economy's going. You can't outsource it. It's not gonna be produced in China. So- Um, I got to looking at different models, uh, different things that we could do in the service industry, and the, my wife, we were just dating at the time. She was doing home health, and, um, a lot of her customers, it was mostly hospice-type customers were- Mm-hmm ... they were passing away, and it was a rough, uh, time for her, and it, it just looks like a hard business for anybody that gets close to their clients. Um- Sure ... and, uh, so we just, she's like, "I don't know that I can keep doing this." And, uh, and I said, "Well, here's an idea. Let's just start a cleaning company." And, um, so she said, "Okay," and, um, "Whatever you think." So over supper, I started a cleaning company. Um, and our first month in business, which was June 10 years ago, uh- Okay ... we sold $310 worth of service the whole month. Okay. And she was like, "I don't, I don't think this is gonna work." And I said, "Well, let's just, um, let's just hang on for a minute. I think this will work. We just need to, need to keep on." And, um, 10 years later, we've got, um, on any given day, 10 to 15 employees. Great. So, um, did you have any formal cleaning experience, your wife have any formal cleaning experience? Mm-mm. 'Cause, you know, a lot of companies that start, a lot of companies that get started in the cleaning space do not have any formal training. Did you? None. Yeah. Other than what my mama taught me when I was growing up. Right. Yeah. That was the extent of it. But- And then we all have our preferences on products and ways to do things and whatnot, and you're right. It's probably taught down, brought down from generations of watching our parents and grandparents do these tasks. It's- I learned real early in our process that that was a problem. Yeah. Uh, because I, I knew that there were ways to do things, and I knew that there was ways that we were doing it and it was wrong. Yep. Uh, so, uh, we, we took, uh, took the chance to go to an, uh, CRC class- Okay ... in Atlanta, uh, the home technician, um, certification. This is, this is part of, um, ISSA? Yeah. Love that. Good. No, so that was a three or four day experience, and that was, that was beneficial. We still use that today. I still use that manual today, uh, to go back and, well, we build our SOPs and our processes. Yep. Uh, we all go back to that manual. Um, so that got us on the right track, and, um- And that kind of, and the biggest problem I think we have is when you hire a new cleaner is breaking them from those habits that they developed over years or, or going off information that they picked up that's, you know, Facebook hacks and- Yeah and things just are not, they just don't work. And, you know, you can wind up damaging somebody's, um, furniture or surfaces. So we, uh, we have a really strict format on what we use and how we use it, and we don't venture from that. Um. That's excellent. Do you prefer to hire new technicians that don't have any cleaning experience as a job? Because everybody cleans in life, but- Yeah, I w- I'd rather have somebody that don't know. Uh, the problem I run into when I've hired people that's worked for another cleaning service, um That their training is probably worse than mine. I don't really feel like mine's dialed in like I want it until I get somebody that's come from another company, and I'm like, "Well, maybe mine's not near as bad as I thought it was." Mm-hmm. Um, uh, you know, because they, they come in with these bad habits and, "Well, this is how we done it over here, and this is how we, they done it." And, and I said, "I don't know how they get by doing that, but that's, that's not how we do it at Classic Clean." And breaking those habits are, are really, really hard. Yeah, I agree. Um, so you and I both engage in janitorial services, and if we can kind of, 'cause we've already mentioned ISSA, and, um, here on the show- Yeah ... um, I, I, I love to talk about this sort of thing because definitely the huge company- Thank you ... and the huge podcast, we talk a lot about business and business growth and sales and marketing. But I'm really passionate about the actual craft of what we do, the deliverable itself, the operations, because I believe in creating a professional world, okay. Okay. That we're, that we are all, like, so that we have a really good business, um, playing field, if you will. And so let's just kind of jump into the training a little bit specific to janitorial. Um, with the resources like you discovered in ISSA, you know, there is, these training certifications and platforms are widely available. Um, and for the people that I've found that I've hired that have maybe been custodians before, janitors before, or had cleaning experience, I have found when they take these courses online and they get their certification, that they're kind of like, "Whoa, I didn't know all that." It kind of breaks them down and builds them back up because they really introduce the science behind the methods and the products and the, you know, the, the cleaning supplies and whatnot. Um, so I think there's a lot to that. I really, I just want to applaud you for, for using those resources. Oh, thank you. We've, uh, one of the first, and we just started redoing some of our training programs to make them in just Classic Clean specific. Yeah. Um, we've used some of those programs, and then, but we've, we've taken them and we've, uh, begged, borrowed, and stolen from everybody else's programs and, and built our own that is specific to just my company and the products that we use. Um, and so we, we kind of dial it down instead of, uh- Watching videos or training videos that- Yeah ... kind of cover it for everybody. We've taken that and said, "No," th- we narrowed it really down and said, "These are the four or five products that we use, and this is what we use them on, and this is how we use them," and, you know, dial it right down to our process. And the first lesson that they get is the chemistry of clean. Perfect. That is the first lesson, and I'm like, "You, if you don't understand this, you're not gonna understand anything else we're gonna talk about. So we need to learn, you know, y- you need to go back to school and learn what the pH scale is and how it works." Mm-hmm. "And, and we'll start right there." And then from then on, uh, when they grab that, it's, they understand why we use this product here and not there. And, and I think when they get that solid base of knowledge, that this prevents you from, uh, you know, using something acidic on, on a marble top or somewhere and destroying a tabletop, 'cause they understand the science of why I tell them we don't do that. Instead of just, you know, that's his rule, it's science and this is why we do it, and it just cuts down on a lot of arguments and what I call people wanting to leave the reservation and go their own way and do their own thing. So- No, I, I love that, Thomas. Good for you. And you're right, it is, the science of cleaning is, there's, it's, it's on a pH scale, it's on the periodic table of elements. It's all right there, right? Yeah. Um, so yeah, I really applaud you for that, and I appreciate you sharing that. Outside of janitorial... Oh, l- let's just stay on janitorial for a minute. What types of janitorial accounts do you have? Do you do mu- municipalities? Do you do schools? What does that look like for, for your company? Most of our janitorial is, uh, small to medium sized offices. Okay. Um, and we do a couple of bigger industrial facilities that we provide seven day a week service to. Um, we've done some healthcare facilities. Um, and then, um- Um, we, we don't do a lot of school work, but we do some, um, school work, uh, maybe to help get them caught up and when new schools are opening. Um, and we do a lot of post-construction clean, uh, in that, in that realm. We've got a couple contractors that do a lot of school work, so we do a lot of that post-construction stuff when schools are doing some renovations in the summer. Um, that's a... There's a three-month span there that's probably a pretty big time of the year for us. Great. And do your contracts for, you know, let's say a manufacturing facility, do they usually run around three years? What does an an- annual or a, a typical contract look like? Well, now people are gonna disagree with this, but I'm old school and we still do it on a handshake. Um- Okay ... I generally ask, um, you know, if you're gonna do something different, that you give us a 30-day written notice. But- Okay ... um, you know, usually, um, usually my clients stay a pretty good while. Um- Well, it sounds like you have a very good relationship with them, and that's wonderful. I mean, that is the good old way of doing business. Um, and I'm sure that there's a time in you've experience where you have to dot the I's and cross the T's in a formal written agreement and whatnot. Um, but you know, in a way, Thomas, it's kinda nice to know that there's still business that transpires like that in America today. Well- There's something very comforting about that ... we still do a lot of our business on a handshake. We don't require a lot of contracts. Um, you know, and I just feel like if, if my word's not good enough for you, then, um, then we don't need to be doing business. Right. Okay. Um, so but as far as... Okay. So really then once the hand is shaken and you've picked up a new manufacturing facility, then it's just ongoing until there's some type of an issue or they want to change or there is any type of change. Yeah. And most of my facilities have some sort of agreement they want from me saying that we will... And mostly it's, it's a one-way street. They're wanting me to say that I'm at least gonna stay a year or two years. So- Okay ... usually whatever they have is, uh, we'll sign and move on. But I don't, uh, I don't try to lock somebody into a contract. If they're not happy, they're not happy. So, uh- You're gonna know about it Yeah. And that, that just makes for a bad situation for everybody. So I'd just as soon, let's just all get out of it if... And, and I've had some clients that are just hard to deal with, and I was glad to see them go. Um, you know, so- What's your longest standing, uh, uh, relationship? How many years? I don't know. We've, uh I think we've still got some clients that we had when we started. Great. Or picked up relatively soon after. Uh, so, you know, we've been here 10 years. I'm gonna say we've got clients that we've been servicing eight, nine years. Great. Yeah, that, that is a great relationship. And with that, the beauty of recurring revenue, and you're talking about daily, weekly recurring revenue, and the business model behind what we're talking about specifically with janitorial services, that is one of the primary reasons why we got into doing it. It sort of fell in our lap because we were a quality service provider of cleaning services, and there was a demand for it, and the opportunities came about. But I learned very quickly that being able to write a budget and having this revenue to depend on outside of exterior cleaning services, where there's a lot of seasonality, as you know, it was, it created a really great baseline, and I started out with, "Can I just get enough recurring revenue in the door through janitorial services to pay all my fixed expenses?" Yeah. And it kind of has evolved from there, and it's gone up and down, but, um, I, I love it. Um, are there any other benefits while we're on janitorial? I'd like to move on to your other services, but, um, are there any other benefits that you see? What, what do you really value in the janitorial space? Basically the steadiness of, you know, those places, they need us every week. Uh, the check comes every, every month. And, um, you know, it's not like our maid service that, you know, you get cancellations and people need to move, and it allows for us to have a pretty steady income stream. Uh, it's steady work for the employees, and, uh, it's just a really good constant steady of income, stream of income that we can use to, you know, it, it keeps us afloat when things slow down elsewhere. Um- Yeah. It's easy to predict. Yeah. There, it's easy to predict. It's, it's, gets, becomes quite simple. It's a simple model. It's a simple business model. Um, it's, it always amazes me the revenue that we can do with a fraction of the employees on the janitorial side than the exterior cleaning side. Do you find the same thing? Yeah. Uh, but I, you know, it does, uh, that's the reason I like the diversity we have. When you do have a client that has to quit, we did have a client that, uh, that when they imposed the tariffs, it really, it really ha- put a damper on their business, and so they had to discontinue services and try to... You know, and that was a five-night-a-week job. Um, so when you have big clients and you have big contracts, you have big losses if, you know, somebody has to step out for a reason, and that was, wasn't because of anything we'd done, but, uh, it's just the, just the market. Sure. Um, so you have to, you have to take the good with the bad. So there's, when there's big gains, there's also big losses when those clients have to quit for some reason. Sure. And we know from COVID, which that could be a whole podcast in itself, and I don't really like going backwards in COVID, but man, in the janitorial space, was there not so many changes that we had to pivot from and into? I mean, it was, it, it was wild. It was. And I mean, it was a big boom for us. I mean, we picked up a lot of extra- Same work and, um, you know, it, uh, we were blessed. But, you know, it was a situation where we're in a small rural area, and when people really started thinking about it, like, "Well, who are we gonna call?" There's not a lot of people that, uh, that could step in and, and, and do those kind of things for them. Right. They had questions and nobody else, um, you know, the people that, the fly-by-night people that, uh, you know, Sally with a bucket couldn't answer their questions about how they were gonna disinfect this facility and how we could manage this. Um, so they had to, they had to rely on people like us to, to keep open and get it done. I love your, uh, female reference of Sally with a bucket, 'cause on the window cleaning side, it's usually Bucket Bob. Um, so that's, that's pretty fun. So also Classic Clean does housekeeping. We do. Residential. Yep. We do residential maid service. That's how we actually started. Okay. Um, and then that just kind of grew into a few offices and, uh, so that's how we kind of ventured over into the, uh, janitorial space. And then that led to a, um, phone call from a p- A builder who needed, uh, a post-construction clean on a, on a building that a Japanese company was buying, and we had never done a post-construction clean, didn't really know what that entailed. We were still young and new at this, and, and I don't hardly say no to anything, so I said, "Sure, yeah, we'll do that." Um, and we probably was a little bit overkill, um, 'cause they came back and they said, you know, this- the Japanese, uh, company said, "This is the cleanest building they have ever taken over." Mm. Um, so that really, um, helped us move forward with that, uh, construction outfit, and, uh, we do a lot of their buildings now. Uh, they don't hardly even ask us for quotes. They just say, "It'll be ready this week, and y'all just come and knock it out." What a dream. So that... And that led me to window cleaning, 'cause there were some windows in one of those jobs that we were still cleaning them with a, by hand with a rag and, um, and I was like, "There has got to be a better way." I was standing on a ladder in mud- Mm ... you know, sink down six or eight inches, and it wouldn't stay up straight, and I, and I was on top of that thing cleaning windows. I thought, "There's gotta be, there's gotta be a better way, uh, to do this." And, uh, so that's when I started diving into the window cleaning, and s- and so that led me down another rabbit hole of window cleaning that we added to our list of services. Yeah. Um, same way with pressure washing. You know, it just, uh, it was a request by a client, "We need this," and I'm like, "Well, sure, why not?" So, you know, now we do window cleaning, um, and then, uh, soft wash and pressure wash. And, um, so we've developed a full range of services, um, all because, uh, my wife didn't have a job. I mean, um, i- yeah. And you serve a major need in your community and your market. And everything that you just described, 'cause all of these services from the interior to the exterior, they're all so incredibly complementary of each other. And so what you just described to me and your, and our audience is that you've basically developed this menu of services that you can provide a turnkey cleaning package for any building or residential home that satisfies all their cleaning needs from the inside to the out. We do, and that's part of our, uh, marketing pro- you know, we're a one-stop shop. Um, we can do whatever you need. Um, we done a home last week. Uh, the people travel a lot, and they've not been, uh, home for a good while, so they needed a, a deep clean on the inside. And while we were there, uh, she, uh- She said something about she seen one of our cards she got in the mail about our window cleaning. And so she's like, "Well, I want you to do my windows too, but we gotta wait till we get our pressure washing done." And I said, "Well, we can do your pressure washing." Yep. So we got a deep clean, a pressure washing, a window clean out of that one customer. Yep. And- Building the ticket, baby. You're building the ticket and she was able to do it with one call. You know, one stop and, and I, I can take care of all of this, and I don't have to deal with it no more. Uh, they'll show up, they'll take care of it, and, you know, they'll send us a bill. Great. Do you rely predominantly on existing client referrals as your primary new lead source, or do you have a sales team? Are you sales? Are you going out trying to actively prospect new clients? What does that look like for Classic Clean today? A lot of it is word of mouth. Um, but we do a variety of advertising. We don't really have a sales staff, uh, that goes out and actively, um, sales. We have tried that in the past, and it- it's not really worked out for me, uh, mostly because I think I just don't have the right people- Mm-hmm uh, in that role. Um, but we use a variety of stuff. Um, we use a lot of billboards, uh, that work well for us here. That's great. Especially digital billboards, if you've got them in your area, they work good for us 'cause we can tailor that, uh, ad specific to that market or whatever service we're trying to sell. Today, I just hired some, uh, new guys and started a new window crew. Um, so we're really, uh, slinging the ads out for window cleaning right now, and we're trying to move into a different market, um, in a bigger city that's about an hour away. So we're really, uh, slinging a lot of different marketing techniques down that way. Everything from Google Ads to some billboards to, uh- Uh, some Syngium cards. Uh, we just started with those guys, and we're, we're dropping some of those predictive targeting cards. Um, and those are starting to hit, and we're starting to see some, some return on those, so. Great. Looking forward to that. So with this new market that you're moving into in the larger city, are you, um... Is your plan to keep your current location as your, um, like your, your home office, and then kind of run it satellite where you have maybe just an operation shop there with trucks, or are you running back and forth in the meantime probably, right? Until you build up enough clientele in that area. What, how are you envisioning this, this, uh- Uh-huh this working? We still book and everything out of the home office. I call it the Classic Clean world headquarters. Okay. So, uh, we still book and schedule out of here, but my guys actually live in Bowling Green. Um, and that's the market we're trying to work into. We already do a little stuff down there, but w- we're really putting some effort into getting there full time. Um, but they live down there, so they have a truck and all the equipment they need, and, um, and they kind of... Their workload, they come back and forth. Uh, sometimes they'll be back in, in Tompkinsville, and sometimes they're in between. Uh, but we try to keep them- Uh, close by so they can swing by and restock with what they need here at the office. Um, but, um, we would like to have an office in Bowling Green at some point, um, hopefully by the end of the year. Um, but we're really working mostly with the window cleaning. They're trying to establish that and get a foothold in, and get some route work started. Um, put an office in, and then as we can get, um, situated and comfortable, start working into the, uh, the janitorial business and, and the maid service in Bowling Green. Great. I hear a lot, and other, even other people I've interviewed on this podcast, but especially in the commercial space, and probably residential as well, but window cleaning is a great in to developing the clus- customer, and then being able to sell the other services to build the ticket, like what Classic Clean can deliver. Um, so very smart. Thank you. Yeah. It, uh, we cl- uh, window cleaning is a good, a good way to go in. It doesn't take very long. You knock out a good set of windows. Uh, the housewife is happy. She's bragging about how great her windows look and, you know, it's, it's instant gratification for the client. Uh, when they come in, they're like, "Oh, wow, I just love these windows." Um, then, and if they're happy, um, you know, it doesn't take very long for you can sell them on other services. Or sometimes selling them on maid service, you know, they're, they're always a little skeptical, especially if they hadn't used a service before, and they're going on a hunt. A- and you can find something wrong with every cleaning job if you really want to. Of course. And so maid service is, um, um, it's a little more risky, you know, to try to win over a client right off the bat because it's, there's just so many things that, uh, can go wrong with a house cleaning. Um, but windows, if they'll knock them out and they're sparkling, and they've got them in a good mood, you can go ahead and, and sell them something else right there. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. One thing I've always loved about window cleaning in my experience is it is a want and not as much of a need. On a commercial level, it can be, it can be part of, you know, the requirement of meeting health code and all that sort of thing. But on a residential level, when we show up at a customer's door, they want us there. It's not like an HVAC company where a piece of equipment broke down. They're like, "Oh, crap, I got to call the HVAC company," and they're all disgruntled when you show up. So that is one thing that I've always loved about window cleaning. Um, and you're right. I mean, it's so easy to deliver that instant gratification, the sparkle. It makes the interior of the home feel so much cleaner. So we're on the same page. Yeah. Um, what is your, what would you say has been the- the number one thing that you have really done well at that's attributed to your growth. And it sounds to me like you have a very, um You still have the size company that you have a very good handle on your staff. You have that, that g- size staff that you, um, obviously you've developed your service as well and the menu of your service as well. What do you think is the, the biggest thing to your success so far? Uh, showing up on time. Ah. I, I think- So easy I think that this industry is so easy. All you have to do is answer the phone and show up when you say you're gonna be there. Um, majority of the r- maid service clients that we have, if they've used somebody else in the past, whether it be another company or an individual that cleans, and when you talk to them and ask them, you know, "Hey, what's your biggest pet peeve you've had?" Or, "What's your biggest problem you've had with cleaners in the past?" Uh, it's not that they didn't do a good job. It's not, uh, anything to do with the work. It's that they didn't show up, or they canceled all the time. Um, I will move heaven and earth to make sure that we do not cancel a, a client. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes, you know, it's inevitable and you, you have to, but, um, we will make sure that we were there. If we're not gonna be there at the time we told you we were gonna be there, we're calling, um, sending you a message. Um, you know, s- letting you know that, "Hey, we're, something's happened. We're 30 minutes late. There's traffic. There's whatever, um, that's going on, and we're gonna be a little behind." And just keep everybody informed. Um, and that's all they're asking for, is if, "Just keep us notified. If you're not gonna be here at 10:00, let us know." Uh, it's not a problem, but, um, I think that's the biggest key that we've had to our success, is, um, is being there on time. And if you've, if you're a fly on the wall in this office, and we're not getting out the door on time, they, they know Thomas is gonna be coming out of the office and, and scaring them along, 'cause I want them out the door, and we want to be there on time. And, um, you know, we like to, we like to be there and do what we say we're gonna do. And I think that's, that's key. Way to keep it simple. Yeah. You are, you are 100% right. I can go back 20 years, and clients, some of the best clients on a lifetime revenue standpoint have said to us, "You, you do what you say you're gonna do. You show up on time, and you communicate." Therefore, the relationship lives on for a long time. And- Yeah, and, you know, we try not to overbook a day. Uh, y- you can get greedy and try to squeeze in more and more and more, and push and push and push. But just as soon as you start pushing a client off, uh, it just, you just go down a rabbit hole of problems. So I would rather do one less job the day and make sure that everybody's happy is try to squeeze in one more and, and ruin a client. Um, because it's, you know, it's the recurring revenue. It's a one-off window cleaning, but- Mm-hmm ... if you make them happy, and then we can work them into doing it on a quarterly basis or just get them on an annual basis. You know, the long-term benefits is, is not worth, you know, trying to cram in one more and pushing a client off somewhere on the end of a day. Hmm. Yeah, that's great advice. So what would you say is the most difficult thing that you're experiencing at this time? In my area, and I'm sure it's everywhere, it's labor. Yeah. Um, and it's not that we can't find people to work, it's just we can't find the right kind of people. Um, we struggle with that. Um, I, and I wish I had a, an answer that, uh, really works, but I don't. It's, it's the matter of, um- You know, I, you know, you used to try to hire people and you interview them and you try to pick the best one, and I've just kinda got lazy and I'm just like, "You know what? You've all three applied. We're just gonna hire y'all three, and be here Monday at 8:00, and let's just see who shows up." And, you know, half of them won't even show up. Mm. Uh, you know, so they kinda weed themselves out. And I was... I just quit wasting my time trying to find some way to sort out the best from the worst and- Mm uh, you know, just the ones that meet the criteria, say, "Hey, show up here." Uh, and you'd be surprised how many of them won't. You may not. You... But they just won't even show up. Um- Right. But that's our... And 'cause we're a small community, 2,300 people in town, 10,000 people in the county. Right. So our labor pool is, is pretty limited. Um, but we do find some... Then some, most of the people that's been with me ironically have been here for, since the beginning. We've had a lot of people here that's been with me since we started. Um, so keeping them is not really the problem, it's just adding to- Mm ... we have, um, that can produce the kind of quality of work, uh, that we're looking for. Sure. Yeah, there's, there's, there is so much into hiring and training. Um, and let me tell you, Thomas, you are not alone. It is every company that I talk to, my own included, this is one of the largest pain points, especially I think in the labor service industry, no matter what that, that home service or, or commercial service is. Um, and one of, one of the biggest things that has helped us in the recent past is the development, true development of our core values, and understanding that we need to hire, fire, reward, and recognize by those core values Because you're right, especially in this, uh, like the kind of, uh, employee avatar that we are attracting in a cleaning company. Um, it could be ages anywhere from young 20s or 18 all the way up to maybe like mid-30s. You could get older than that. Um, and these are people that are either looking for a break, maybe they're trying to overcome some hardships they've had in their past before. You know, a lot of times we have to give people a chance, and we're taking a risk, and there's so much expense in bringing them in and training them to know if they're gonna sh- if they're gonna show up, like you said, or stay. And we really started to cater our interview questions and the hiring process itself around our core values, and I have to say it's made a big difference. Um, but you're right, the labor, labor is a, is a, I think, across the nation, is a, a huge pain point for companies like ours. Um, is there any one thing you can think of that you do that, that might be a good tip for listeners in regard to hiring? Um- 'Cause I have a feeling you're very personable on an interview. I have a feeling that you sit down and really dive deep with people that you're interviewing. I could be wrong, but I'm just taking a wild guess. I, I do. I like to know who I'm getting. Um, and, you know, we have a lot of people coming here that have some sort of past that, uh, that they're having to work around. So, so we don't use anybody with, that's had any drug-related issues, uh, shoplifting or any kind of theft in our, in our maid service. Yep. Uh, you know, but in our janitorial division, we can be a little more lenient on who we hire there. Mm-hmm. Uh, you've gotta have a really clean background, uh, to work in our maid service. Mm-hmm. But, uh, to clean a factory floor, uh, not so much. Uh, we can be more forgiving there. So we have to give some second chances to some people. But, um, we do, when they come in and put in an interview or they apply through our website online or whatever, uh, when they come in, we do give them, um- A form that kind of just goes over the non-negotiables, uh- Great that says, you know, "We expect you to be well-groomed," or, "We expect you to be here on time. And we, you know, we expect these things." And we make them sign off that they've read it, and that they check the box that, "Hey, this is, this is gonna be, these are possibilities that may happen. You may have to work on a weekend." Uh, we do a lot of Airbnb types of cleans, uh, in our maid service, so there's a lot of weekend work, especially through vacations in summertime. Um, so we just put that out there front and center right off the bat and say, "Here's, here's what we're gonna, you're gonna have to do. Um, these are not negotiable." Um, and there's no around it. We have, we were, no smoking in any of our vehicles, uh, you know, because we've had that problem in the past. And, and they have to sign it and say, "I understand these are the rules that we're gonna follow." Uh, and I had a girl come in, and she was really wanting a job, uh, just a week or so ago, and she filled in the application, and I give, slid that paper across, and, um, she read over them. And, um, and I had several I was interviewing at the same time, and when I handed them all back in, she did not sign one, one page. She didn't initial any of them. None of them. Yep. And, you know, but she was like, "I'm, I'll be here. You know, start Monday, I'll be here." And I was like, "Well, I didn't..." You know? I was like, "Well, we'll see you Monday." But I know right then when she didn't sign any of those- Uh-huh ... she wasn't gonna show up. Right. You know, when they, when they see that they, they're serious and I can't, you know, jerk them around and, and, and I've been real lenient in the past, uh, and that's all that done is cost me money. Right. You know, 'cause I... They give you a sad story, and they've had this problem or that problem, and I feel sorry for them and try to help. And, uh, uh, all that's done is cause just heartache and pain and, and put more stress on the other employees. And so I've just, um, talked to some of my more senior employees, and I was like, "Listen, we're not, we're not putting up with this anymore. It's too much on me. It's too much on you. If they're not showing up, um..." Because I've got a girl that runs one of my facilities, and I said, "If they're not showing up, um, and they're late every day, we're putting them on the road." Mm-hmm. I know we don't want to be short-handed, but you know, you can't rely on these people, because there's gonna be a day when you have a problem and you need to be gone, and we can't rely on these other people to show up and do their part. Uh, so if they're not gonna be a team player, and they're not gonna sign that, and they're not gonna pay attention and, and Move on, get rid of them. And, um- Yeah ... 'cause it's not, it's not their house I'm trying to save, it's mine, you know? And you've got 10 or 12, 15 more people that, or however employees you have, they're dependent on me to make sure this machine runs well. And, um, you know, and if I let one person start bringing it down, then it affects the whole company and it affects everybody that works here. It affects everybody's paycheck, and it's... When you look at it from that prosp- that aspect, it's, it's not worth your risk to keep somebody like that on, so. Yeah, that's great. Um, clear expectations and documentation right in the interview process. That's very good. I, I wanna ask you a final question. Um, what at, for, uh, over these 10 years, can you think of any one thing that you wish you just would've done differently? If you would've done it different, it could've changed the whole trajectory of where you are today, or maybe some major mistake that you've made. Is there anything that comes to mind? Um I don't know. I, I think I would've probably done a better job of Building the systems early on. Mm-hmm. Good one. Um, we, we relied a lot on, um, you know, "I'm gonna show you how to do it, and then when we hire a second guy, I want you to show him what I showed you." And, uh, so much gets lost there. It's like a big game of telephone when you were kids and you passed the secret on. Yeah. It just never gets to the end like it did. Um, so I think that's probably my biggest, um, um, biggest problem is 'cause we, we didn't systemize that process from the beginning, and I think a lot of that was because I didn't have the maid service experience in the beginning, and I didn't know what I was even trying to systemize. Uh, eh, we did a lot of our other stuff. We systemized our quoting, we systemized, uh, our marketing, our, our branding. We done all that from the get-go. We, we built a brand before we ever had a job. Okay. But, um, there is some systematic things there with the SOPs that we didn't have in place when we started that looking back, um- I would, I would rather pushed off opening a month or two down the road- Mm-hmm spent my time doing the SOPs, uh, and things of that nature in the beginning. I think it would've made a huge difference. Well, Thomas, that's such a good one. You are probably way ahead of most of us listening, 'cause most of us listening developed SOPs along the way as the things came up, and we realized that they were issues. We realized we had to develop an SOP for them, and then you develop the SOP, and guess what? Now you have to hold people accountable to that SOP. You have to train the SOP. You have to make... You have to reiterate the SOP. Um, but you know what? You're absolutely right, and I think that, um, a lot of us, and not to any of our fault, I mean, this is the natural organic growth in a small business. We are learning as we go, and we are developing as we go through trial and error. Right. But one th- one thing that I love about our conversation is you and I have talked about three of the five leadership abilities. We've talked about simplification, being simple. Uh, we've talked about being predictive, and we've talked about systemizing. And so yeah, I think you're doing great, and you're, you're well on your way to tapping into that new Bowling Green market and, uh, and seeing some growth there. Love it. Thank you. I think, uh, you know, I think when we started, we just didn't really anticipate it getting to this point, uh, is why we didn't do some of these things sooner. And then when you get to this point, you're like, "Oh, I should have done that." Uh, and I, and I don't think, um- And we're in the process now of kinda going back over all that material that we've amassed over 10 years and saying, "What, uh, what can we, what do we need to go back and change now?" 'Cause so much has changed since we've done this, you know, uh, years and years ago. So I think it's a continual process of upgrading and making sure that the information you're putting out to your employees is, is up to date and it's accurate. Yeah. And, um, and we've... I, last week I've been relying on Claude. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, we've been just taking all of that stuff that we've had in files for years on the computer and just dumping it into Claude and saying, "Hey, combine all this and put it together for us, and let's put me on something." And we're going through and just, you know, hand-marking it and saying, "This needs to go, that needs to go, and we need to change this, and just update that." And trying to build a more streamlined system from the point of, uh, our operations manual to, um, SOPs to clean the facilities, to the inspection reports- Mm-hmm so it all flows and it's all continuous, uh, instead of, you know, you know, we've got SOPs written seven or eight, 10 years ago for this, and then we've got- Mm ... some more stuff here. Mm-hmm. So we'll bring it all in so that it flows, and so that if you follow this manual, um, then everything that happens after that as far as, uh, daily inspections, uh, monthly inspections, and all that flows, and it's, it's consistent from beginning to end. And I think that's gonna make a huge benefit, um, to our productivity and just making sure... And, and just worker satisfaction. I mean, when they're, um, when they get dinged for something that, um, they didn't do correctly and then you find out that, well, nobody told them how to do that- Mm-hmm ... uh, then it, it just, it creates bad blood everywhere. They don't wanna get dinged. I don't wanna, you know, have that, uh, bad black mark on their, um, on their mind while they're, you know... We just want it to be smooth. We want everybody to be happy. And, um, systemizing that and making it consistent across the board for everybody is, is gonna be, uh, our next, is our next step. Excellent. So now you just brought up a fourth leadership ability, which is structure. Good job. I love it. So awesome. So I wanna ask you, Thomas, you joined the Huge Mastermind how long ago? Um, I'm probably headed into my second year. Cool. Okay. And I know I've seen you in Nashville. What is the biggest benefit? What do you enjoy about being part of the Huge Mastermind community? Um, like I say, I like, I like information. Um, I like hearing what everybody else is doing. Uh, I like to compare notes. Um, and I mean, I have, um, friend groups here, other business owners in different sectors of home service industry that, you know, we have these conversations weekly of, "Hey, how are you doing with this? How are you doing with that? And how are you managing this?" And this, the mastermind just brings that to a grand scale where I can talk to people across a diverse group, uh, you know. And you're talking about, you know, different size companies, different size areas. Um, and it may be, um, you know, in our last mastermind meeting we was talking about some, uh, performance review management and things of that nature, and I thought, you know, that would be... That's something I could really bring back and integrate, uh, um, into the systems that I'm putting together now. Mm-hmm. And so we're gonna integrate that in. So it was just a little nugget, uh, that, um, you pick up at every meeting or, um, every conversation. There's always something there that you can bring back, and maybe you can't use it immediately, uh, 'cause I don't bring everything back, say, "Oh, I'm gonna go work on that right now." But I s- set it on the shelf and I say, "There's gonna be a date and time when that right there, I'm gonna need it." Right. Um, so it's sitting here and it's ready to go when, when I do. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I, I'm the same. I, I think I love it because I get introduced to, uh, like higher level business concepts that, you know, I never went to school for this stuff, right? Right. Um, and to have somebody, uh, like Mike Dalke be able to share the growth that he's experienced in his career, um, and bring that back to us and teach us, um, like I said, these business concepts, and there's just so much to know. And the information is so great. Um, so yeah. Yeah. And it's a very community feel, and we get to know each other really well and, um, next time I wanna make sure we sit at the table together. Sure. Yeah. Look forward to it. So thanks for the interview today. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we sign off? No, I just think that, um, you know, if you're listening and, and you're thinking about starting a home service industry or, um, or if you're struggling, I would say just, um, just hang on. It's, um... You know, the key's not to get excited. Uh, you're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days. You're gonna have good months, you're gonna have months that are, are not so well. But, uh- You know, just have a little faith and hang on. Uh, follow the systems. I, I read a lot of books. Um, and you don't have to... And I would say, you know, there's something that everybody does that you can take something away from. You don't have to follow somebody's system, uh- Right ... lock, stock, and barrel. But, uh, but I'm always interested in what somebody else is doing, what they've got to say, and there's always something there that you can take out and use at your home, um, office and, uh... But don't, uh, don't fall into the trap, I would say, of thinking you have to do it just like Joe did it, uh, 'cause Joe's in a different world. Joe's in a different market. Joe has different customers. Um- Yeah ... you know, I'm in a super small market. Um, 'cause I, I laugh when, you know, Sid said once that he's in a small market with 70,000 people, and I'm like, "Man, you don't know what a small market is." You know, we're meeting, we're meeting at the Arborland Hotel, and everybody in my, in my town can stay in this hotel tonight. That's a small market. Uh, but there's a lot of things that they talk about that, uh, I can bring back and use in a small market. Sure. Uh, that may not necessarily translate well other places, but, um, it's just you don't have to follow everybody's advice lock, stock, and barrel. Right. But you can and use it where you're at and make it work for you. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great advice. That is great advice. Um, I, I wanna just share how important it is in this conversation with you today... I mean, first of all, your words of encouragement are, I'm sure, very appreciated. But one thing that I've taken away from our conversation today that is so important, especially for companies that are trying to grow and scale and do all these hard things and push, push, push, is there is something extremely valuable that you've brought to us, and I'm gonna go back to the word simplicity. Keeping it simple is one of the most important things to do. Yep. We tend to create so much stuff. I'll be the first to tell you, I created a business that was very complicated, and now I'm trying to simplify. And, and so if you can keep it simple, I believe you'll be much happier and much more successful. And I really applaud you for that 'cause I c- I can, I just sense by talking to you that you've got simplicity down pat, Thomas. I like simple. Uh- I see that ... you know, people have to be able to understand it. Um, and we've tried to get more complicated, and I seen real quick this is not, this don't work. They can't... It's too much. Keep it simple. Uh, make sure they got the right information that they need to know, but y- don't try to overload them. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Thomas, and I look forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. Um, for any of our listeners... Oh, I have one more question. Mm-hmm. You said you like to read. What's your, what's your top recommended book? Oh, wow. Um, I read a lot of stuff in the past, uh, that... And I, but I'll tell you two that I bet probably nobody mentions on here. Um, one of them is, um, a book I read years ago, Good to Great. Mm. Um, you know, and, and it's about companies, um, and how they grew and how they failed, and the basis of it is do one thing and do it well. Yeah. Um, you know, so that's, um, that's a good one. And then, uh, one that I guarantee nobody brought up is, uh, and I, I read it on a whim, but it was Sun Tzu's The Art of War. Ah. Uh, it was written by a Chinese general 2,000 years ago- Okay ... about the art of war and his concepts of, um, how to w- win battles. Um, and when you read it out of the context of a business owner, and one of his concepts was you don't ever wanna crowd your enemy and, um, corner them because they will fight harder. Mm. You have to give them a route of escape. Um, so that really stuck with me when I, when I build estimates for, uh, customers, uh, you wanna provide a proposal. Y- you know, always provide that route. Um, where if they're not buying your highest price, always provide that route, uh, maybe to get them in at a lower ticket price. Um, you know, and, you know, if you're having a bad employee, give them a route. Give them a route that you want them to go a- and make it easy, uh, for them to exit the battlefield. Uh, you know, they don't put up near as much fight. Um, but that's a good book and, um, they teach it in colleges and universities all around the world. Uh, but you, if you read it with a context in the middle aspect from a business owner- Yeah ... there's, there's a lot to be gathered right there. That's excellent advice. I mean, I've, I've ha- I've had a friend one time that was, that's a corporate guy, and I remember him saying, "You always look for the out." Yep. And I think, um, I mean, that, that is such great advice. I'm so glad I asked this question because, um, that's a huge takeaway. And you're right, you don't wanna corner people. Um, you wanna make sure that you provide something very easy for them to be able to disengage with if they want. I think it puts less tension on the relationship. But also when you first said it in regard, I was thinking about competition. When you said you don't wanna corner them, you wanna give them a way to escape Um, I mean, I kind of think about that in regard to competition as well Yeah. I mean, if you're looking to buy a competitor or, or, or another business, you know, there's, uh... Or maybe there's somebody out there that you're just having a hard time with and, you know, they're, you're struggling, uh, to deal with them and they're cutting into your market share. I mean, you can either fight them or you can buy them. Right. You know? Right. Maybe, maybe instead of fighting them, you need to get your checkbook out and look for a way to, to buy them out of your way. It may be the best decision you made all day. So there's always a, there's always a route. And, um, and Sun Tzu said, you know, "Never, never back your enemy into a corner, because he will just fight that much harder." Yeah. Or you can come to the Huge Mastermind and you can learn from Mike Dalke about how to present revenue stream agreements so you don't have to get your checkbook out. Well, I was gonna leave that for Mike. That's his, that's his story. Um- I love it. My job's just to get to the meeting. Yeah, no, this is so cool. I'm so glad you shared that with us. Um, we're definitely gonna have the two books that you mentioned, Thomas, in the show notes, uh, so that our listeners can access those easy. And again, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I know you so much better, and so will everybody in the Mastermind and out there in the window cleaning and pressure washing and janitorial world. And, um, you've, you really provided a lot of insight today. I really appreciate it. Well, I was... Good to be here. I enjoyed it. Great. Thanks, Thomas. We're signing off. Have a great one. You too. Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, wanna let you know the mission for the Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help, uh, blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business, and we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called The Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the Huge Foundation's education platform. That has... We've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you, and every month we do, uh, a topical webinar, and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners, and it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the Huge Convention or the Huge Convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd in 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business, and it's got... We've got, um, education, world-class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business, and it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward- A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a m- mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to thehugeconvention.com and scroll down, click on the Freedom Path, or of course, you can find the links here in the show notes. So sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you like the show, go ahead... I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. Man, it would really mean the world to us. It would help other people, and as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with Ramiro Ortiz, founder of SAGE Window Cleaning in Bend, Oregon, to talk about building a home service business from absolutely nothing into a thriving company with a strong team, strong culture, and big growth goals.
Ramiro shares how a short six-week window cleaning job with Sid in Montana helped change the direction of his life. After an epic climbing journey with his family and only a few thousand dollars left in the bank, Ramiro and his wife Erin started SAGE Window Cleaning with no customers, no experience running an office, and one oversized 32-foot ladder.
This conversation is especially valuable for service business owners who are trying to move from survival mode into real leadership. Ramiro talks about the importance of branding, pricing confidently, building trust with customers, hiring the right people, creating culture, and learning how to delegate the parts of the business that do not match your strengths.
 
Resources:
 
SAGE Window Cleaning
Ramiro Ortiz LinkedIn
SAGE Window Cleaning Facebook
The Go-Giver
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider Newsletter Signup
The Huge Insider Podcast Downloadable Action Guide
The Huge Mastermind Information Page
Huge Foundations Facebook Group
 
 
Transcript:
 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We're your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Huge Transformation podcast. I'm Sid Graef, and I'm with Ramiro Ortiz today. And Ramiro and I have known each other for a long time, about 10 years. And is... You're, Ramiro, you're out in Oregon, and you've got SAGE Window Cleaning. Is that right? Yes. Hi, Sid. Uh, thank you for having me, and thanks, uh, everybody, your listeners, uh, for, for, you know, being, being here. And I'm gonna share a little bit my story. We're, we're in Bend, Oregon. Yeah, beautiful, beautiful city, beautiful town, uh, just gorgeous with a beautiful river. Kind of similar to, uh, Missoula, uh, where you're at. Uh, reminds me a lot of the beauty of, uh, where you're at. So yeah, it's, it's, it's been, it's been great. It's been a, an amazing, uh, town, and it has host us, uh, just greatly the last 10 years. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful. Well, let me give, let me give everybody a little bit of background. This is... I've been looking forward to this interview because I've known you for a while. And Ramiro and I, we f- we first met in Missoula. It was about 10 years ago, and you and, and your wife Erin and young children were in town, and I believe you were gonna start a climbing gym. And- That's right ... at the time, you applied for an open position we had cleaning windows. And- Right ... I've, I've bragged about you so many times. And it, when we reconnected recently, I said, I said, "You remember that year you worked for me?" And you're like, "Sid, it was only six weeks or two weeks." I mean, you worked for a very short time with me. During that bit of time, you made a big impression. Impression number one was, uh, by the end of your second week, your production rate, your speed and accuracy was as, you were as fast as our, our best cleaner that had been with us for several years. I'm like, "Who is this guy?" And of course, with a climbing background, you took immediately to high rise. And one of our guys, Jake, he, you guys worked together for a minute. He remembered you. He brought you up yesterday in a completely different context, and he worked with us for five years. He was gone for five years. He came back and he said, he said, "Who was that guy that, that, uh, was doing all the repel stuff? And he was just, he was so good, but he didn't work for us very long." And I'm like, "Ramiro?" He goes, "Yeah, that guy was awesome." I'm like, "How do you remember this?" So you, you made a big impact in a small amount of time, but then you and your family left Missoula to do an epic climbing trip because- Correct you were a professional rock climber, and you were going, the way I remember it is you're gonna start climbing and, you know, go to Washington State and work your way all the way down to Mexico or Central America, like be gone for months climbing. And with that as the background, tell us, so let's start, not about window cleaning, but tell us about that epic climb trip. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We landed in, in, in Missoula, uh, with the, the plans of opening a rock climbing gym. And the local gym, uh, which they are a- an amazing gym, uh, they were a little bit ahead of us. It was... By the time, it was a small, small place, and we wanted to open something bigger, and our plans was to kind of take them down, you know? And so we went in there, and we realized, uh, shortly after that they were ahead of us. They had already signed a lease with another bigger building, and their plans was to expansion, and there was really no room for two gyms of that size in Missoula. So, uh, it was a big cold shower, and we said that, "Well, what are we gonna do?" So we just, uh, packed it up. Uh, we put everything in a, in a travel trailer, and we hit the road. That's what we did. We were rock climbers. That's how I met my wife. And so that was our comfort zone, uh, so we did. Uh, we were on the road for a year and a half or maybe a couple of years, and we hit just the most wonderful places. And it just took us to, uh, you know, just the incredible not only places, but we met just the most wonderful community. Um, but that was kind of our start. Uh, you know, a couple of years later, we... I remember we're in, uh, somewhere in Red Rocks in Vegas, and we were very, very cold, I remember, and we were very poor. We just barely had, um, I think it was probably $3,000 left in the bank. All of our savings, they were gone, and so we had to, uh, basically settle and, and, and make home again. So we came back to Bend, which was our first stop trying to find home. Uh, and talking about big impacts, uh, the six weeks that I worked for you has, uh, completely changed and just i- i- it made a, a complete, uh, 360 change in my life, uh, because you also, I also remembered you. Uh, so it was only six weeks, but, uh, shortly after we landed in Bend, I picked up a temp job here, and I was doing roofing, and I was doing sweeping warehouses, and basically just whatever. They called me in the morning and said like, "Hey, they need a construction worker." And I was like, "I'll be there." And so I'll just show up and do my best, and it was, I don't know, maybe $16 an hour maybe the best day. Uh, and I realized I was not gonna be able to support my family. So then you came to my mind, and I was like, "Well, I remember doing this, uh, and maybe it's a good fit." So I remember making the phone call and with my hopes that you will remember me because six weeks- Mm-hmm ... it was not a big time, you know? And, uh, so I remember calling and saying like, "Hey, do you remember me, number one, and are you willing to, uh, you know, help me out starting, uh, with this thing?" Uh, so, uh, that's, that's my, my story before I, I start my, my, my company here in Bend. It's been 10 years since then. Um, and it has been incredible. Uh, it's been just amazing. We are doing incredibly well. Uh, we have, um, now under our, our- care, um, many, many families. We have a big c- crew. We're 15, 16 people. Uh, so things have, uh, really come... We- we've come, uh, uh, very, very far, uh, thanks to your, your guidance and, and, and for sharing. So I'm really happy to be here, and hopefully I can be motivation for somebody to start something out and, and be the inspiration, uh, like you were for me. Well, well that's very gracious. Thank you. And also, people, you're, everybo- you're gonna gather very quickly, Ramiro's very modest. He's got a lot of ability, uh, but he's very modest. But y- so you guys, it, when you started Stage Window Cleaning in Bend, I mean, you literally started from nothing Yes. We started from nothing, nothing. My background was in graphic design. That's how I graduated in Ecuador, where I'm originally from. Uh, but climbing was my passion. So I was bartending on nights, and I was a rock climber. So, um, a little bit of my background, the g- the, the, the graphic design came in play right away when I said I wanna open my, my business, and I did not want to show up to anybody's house before I had my, my logo design, and I needed to have my van all wrapped and ready to go. I didn't have the money, but I just had to do it. And literally, my first ladder was a 32-foot ladder. That's how inexperienced I was. I just went to the store and I thought to myself, "I don't have the money to buy four different sized ladders, so I'm just gonna go the big one. And with this one, I'm sure I can reach anything, the short and the tall." And then I was doing, you know, a two-story home with a 32-foot ladder and, and it was just, uh, some of the hardest days. It was, uh, quick learning. That's not your first ladder. That shouldn't be your first ladder. Um- Yeah ... so yeah, it, basically I just w- wanted to start it really, really well, and it was my image. My name needed to be short, it needed to be powerful, and people- Mm-hmm ... needed to remember it. Uh, and I didn't wanna have any questions like, "Was it, like, See Through Again or Twister View?" Or, like, whatever it is, you know, that we- Yeah ... could get confused. But it needed to be just a four-letter name that everybody will remember, and eventually my goal was to create a brand, because it was a little bit my background. Um, so right after that, I guess I just made a couple phone calls and we talked a little bit about how can we get a customer, how can we get somebody to call us, and how can we bid a, a job properly. Uh- Mm-hmm ... and so we start putting this thing together. With my wife, Erin, that has been just my great support and honestly, uh, she should be, uh, sitting next to me. I did not do this alone. Uh, so, uh, with this great support, I was, you know, d- d- the guy doing, uh, the windows here, and she was just, uh, starting to run the office, again, from zero with, uh, zero experience. We put together a website just out of Weebly, and we didn't know how, but we just started, uh, you know, working really hard and, uh, got a couple of squeegees. Uh, so the journey is, it's been incredible. Uh, that's how it started, and I would love to show you where we are at just one of those days. Hopefully we can walk around the shop and you can see our system operational procedures and, and how we, how we run our crews. Yeah. No, that's great. So how did you get your first customers? My first customer was a really random thing. Uh, back in the day 10 years ago, I think that Google was not what it is this day. So we open our, our Google profile finally, and we had a really crappy website, but we had it. And so I think it was a little b- a little bit of a glitch that we ranked number one for 45 minutes, uh, before- we went on to... Yeah, that's how it was. That's great. We ... Because there was no o- other way. We were there and we could not believe it. I was like, "This is actually gonna work out. We are first already in Google," and it was our first, you know, 20 minutes. And then half an hour later, uh, we were in page number 17, and it took us a long time to, you know- Mm-hmm work our way, uh, to the top. Uh, but then this guy called us and he said like, "Oh, you know, can you come and do my windows?" And we were not picking up Sage Window Cleaning, but we were like, "Hey, how are you?" You know, like, "Who's this?" It was my personal phone. So we were surprised that we were, got our first c- first customer, and so we did our first job. Uh, later on, uh, we started laying down door hangers, that it was your, your original idea. And so it start- started working. Uh, my entire family, my kids, uh, one of them was nine years old, another one was 11, another one was a baby, but they were still just laying door hangers like crazy. Mm-hmm. Some people would yell at me like, "Oh, that's child abuse." And I was like, "Well, those are my kids. Don't worry about it. They're helping me to build our future together." Uh, and but it was just our family just putting door hangers all over the place. Uh, and eventually get a phone call, uh, just for the week, and try to keep door hanging, and keep, uh, pushing, uh, and trying to, you know, eventually, uh, other, other marketing strategies. But, uh, that's how we got our, our very first customer, which was very lucky shot, a glitch in Google, and, um, eventually was just door hanging. Yeah. Gotta love that glitch. That's great. I've never heard of that, so that's fun. Yes. Yeah, it, it was the best thing. I, I thought that I was gonna kill it. I was like, "Well, I'm, I'm in Google right away. This is gonna actually work out." Uh, it didn't last long. Yeah. Now, you... at the, um, at the beginning here, you alluded to it, you said you have, uh, a lot of families under your care, or you've got 15 people on your team, and... But I love the way that you position that, to go, "I'm responsible for these families," or, "I care for everybody's families." That's a really rich point of view. That's only been 10 years to go from startup, just you, to 15 people. What are some of the biggest... Like, what were some of the turning points along the way or inflection points where you go, you know... At some point, you, you got that first customer, then you're hanging door hangers, and then somewhere along the line you said, "I have to hire somebody, I'm too busy." Or, like, w- what was your first hire? Yeah, I remember clearly, uh, his name was Nicola, and I just needed somebody to just give me a little hand with my 32-foot ladder. It was just too heavy. I couldn't do it. I couldn't afford another ladder. And I landed this Super 8 motel, and I was like all full force on it. Uh, so we place, placed an ad. Uh, and it was... He's a really nice guy. Like, he worked with me for, for about a year, uh, or so. And, um, so yeah, the, the, the s- the steps were, uh, hard work every single day. Eight hours of putting energy into my business. Uh, rocket fuel, uh, just so I can get, uh, hopefully a, a phone call for the week. Uh, eventually we're starting to be fab. We still have a little bit of our old boards where we had our old schedule, and it just... I, I could not believe that. I was really happy getting $120 house, uh- Yeah ... because it was $120 that I didn't have, uh, today. So it was just, uh, uh... We're still trying to get rid of those customers that I low, low bid. Great. All right. So you, some of your early customers, you've mentioned, you know, $120 house, and it, it's like that's exciting and you're grateful at the beginning when you're super hungry, but at some point you realize, "Hey, this is... I'm not really making any money here," or, "I'm selling it too cheap." How did you, um, establish your pricing and then, like, w- what would that same house be now? It was 120 10 years ago. How much would you charge for the same? Oh, wow. I mean, uh, 600 bucks. I mean, I was, I was totally- ... I was Yeah. I was, I was, I was desperate, and I didn't know what I was doing. That is the truth. Uh, I, I... we were just flying the airplane and, and building it at the same time. Uh, so one of my compliments, again, Erin, my wife, uh, she is more bold than I am. I am a softie. I go to somebody's house and I count the panes and there are 40 panes and I'm like, "Oh, let's just charge her for 30," because she's super nice and she... you know, I, I just wanna help this person out. And she is more straight up and she's like, "This is gonna be 800 bucks," you know? And I, for me- Yeah it's, it's hard. So that compliment, it is, it has been incredibly beneficial for me. Uh, that's what I, I encourage everybody to just think about that, analyze your personalities and say, "Well, this is a weakness and I don't know how to take care of this, so I'm gonna either get better or hire the right person so actually I can start making some, some money." It's the same thing that is kind of happening to my daughter. She's starting a house cleaning business. We are guiding her on it, and she's a softie. She really likes the lady. She's 80 years old and she just gave her a really good deal, and she's losing, literally losing money every day. So, uh, I think one of the good- Either an obstacle or an opportunity is know your limits and analyze yourself and say, "Yeah, I am, I'm a softie and I cannot, uh, take care of this part of my company, and I might as well find somebody that can, that can do it for me, right? I don't have the strength to do that." Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. About the... It was around the time you worked for us, we were at the, the warehouse we called the Cave, and had an office manager named Cassie. I think she was running it when you were there. Yeah. And- I think she g- she got hired, you had an older lady working before that, and I think maybe Cassie started, uh, maybe. But I remember the Cave clearly. Yeah. So we had, we hadn't raised our prices in, you know, 10 years, and they were too cheap, and they were cheap when we started, so they were terrible by the time, you know, it was time to raise prices. So like you, I'm a bit of a softie, or definitely was back then. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm gonna give them a deal." And I remember I was like, "We have to raise prices," but I couldn't do it. So I just made a script for Cassie, and I'm like, "Just tell people this." And she went, "Okay." Then people would call, and she'd go, "Yep, here, da, da, da, da, da. Here's the price." And we literally lost zero customers. Everybody... The only comments we got about it was, you know, she said, "Well, Sid's raising prices." And, uh, people would go, "It's about time." I was like, "Oh, my God. When your customers know that you're dirt cheap, there's a problem." So we, we grew out of that. But I love your, uh, the advice there. Like, know your strengths, know your weaknesses, and find somebody to help cover the, the weaknesses. So- Absolutely. I think that is, that is really, uh, the downfall for many entrepreneurs and business owners, uh, that it feels uncomfortable to lose control of certain things, but the reality is the only way to move forward, is the best way for your business, for your family. Uh, so again, I encourage people to step out of their comfort zone and just, uh, check on your weaknesses and your, your abilities. They have definitely a limit, you know? Yeah. So first year in business, just to have a benchmark, what, um, about what was your revenue that first year you started out? The first year we were very happy to do probably, uh, 65 or something that year, and it was an incredibly successful year for just a brand new business. It was more money- Mm ... that I've ever thought I could make. And yeah, uh, I, I think that was probably about what we did. Uh, we laid down, um, thousands and thousands of door hangers. People started talking to, uh, about us. Uh, our image started to, uh, uh, cement and give us the, uh, the benefits of having a really strong, clear image. Um, and so people start, uh, just to pass the word of mouth and, uh, they thought that I was a big franchise when it was just me and, and my, my wife trying to pretend, you know. She would just answer the phone like, "One of our crews is gonna show up to do the estimate today." And it was the only crew that we - Just you. uh, did, did everything. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so they always thought that we were a bigger company because we presented ourselves as more professional, uh, I think more professional than anybody here in Bend back in the day. Uh, we in some ways created a little bit of a revolution here. We showed up with, um... I didn't have the money, but I had good credit, so I went to go and get a nice clean Nissan NV200 van, and I wrapped it really nice. Mm-hmm. And nobody, nobody else had that in my area. Uh, they had little beat up trucks and they have other type of, uh, rigs, uh, but nothing nice and clean with logos that you can see and very clear to, to copy a phone number and know what they are, what they are doing. Uh, so shortly after, the companies around here, they start to copy, uh, literally getting the exact same little vans and they had to do a better ladder rack and they had to put some better, uh, logos. And now there is, uh, I don't know, uh, many, many companies here in Bend that they look a little bit like a twin version- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, which is, you know, uh, good for us. We need to stay on, on, on, on top of it. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this 'cause you, you touched on it here. Um, Marcus Sheridan, he was one of our keynote speakers at the Huge convention last year and he talks about- I remember him, yeah he talked about trust pillars Like trust pillars because really with, like the old adage is very true today, whether it's, whether you're dealing with a phone book or you're dealing with AI, is people do business with people they know, like, and trust. So you, how do you develop that trust? You're in a- you guys have moved to a new city. The first thing you said, like you, you did study graphic design, for those who that are not watching this on YouTube. You got a beautiful, simple, clean design for Sage Window Cleaning. It's crisp. It's easy to see. You can read it quickly. It looks beautiful. It's appealing. When you showed up, you know, in a fully wrapped van with that, that's a trust signal because it looks like you mean business. You're serious about it. You care. It's clean. It's nice. The, what are some of the other things that you did to develop trust, uh, as you were building your business? Yeah, 100% Sid. I, I, I think showing up, uh, with a uniform as well and get all the guys lined up, uh, aligned with your, with your, with your colors, and be proud of them. It is something that also customers look through their windows and see who is this crew that looks super nice. They're proficient. They know how to do this, this. And so they wanted to have the same service. They didn't wanna have a beat up truck in front of their house for half of the day. They wanted to have a nice looking, uh, truck. Uh, so I thought that I was special also because I was like, "I'm the only guy that can convince this person, and I can only make them happy." I, I wa- I was the window washer, and I was just very special because I could please everybody, you know? And I was doing this perfect job every time. Uh, the reality is that if I ran my company as a training organization, and I really focused on creating and producing amazing technicians, I am not that special anymore. They are just as good as I am. So I started to, uh, just train people really, really well so they can do almost the same as what I, I did, but, uh, with their own touch. And so I realized that also surrounding yourself by amazing, amazing crew, uh, really good people, uh, helps you to build that trust. Uh, focusing on things that really, really matter for customers. Uh, how do you want your house to be treated? Uh, I tell my guys all the time, "Just treat this house like it was your grandma's house. Uh, how do you want this house to be treated? Basically like it was your grandma's." So, uh, little by little, uh, with word of mouth, people are starting to trust. Um, and yeah, here's where we are. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Here we are. So, you and Aaron are, um, members of the Huge Mastermind, and you started not quite a year ago, about nine months ago. And one of the first conversations we had, we were working on, um, some of the tools we do at the Mastermind was core values and core behaviors. And, uh, and, uh, you and Aaron made a big shift, or you made some changes in your core values and core behaviors for your company to get people realigned because you've, you've already grown well, but you're like, you have a new motivation to go on a big growth, um... to go into growth mode again. So I'd, I'd love to... tell me about some of your, your culture changes and how that made a difference with your team Yeah, um, it- it's been incredible. It's been just, uh, unbelievable the process that, that we've gone through the last, uh, uh, nine months. Uh, we were very successful and we were doing very well. Our company always did well. Uh, but you don't know how well you can do unless you actually start digging deep a little bit into it. So, uh, the, the catalyst for this was actually one of my employees. I was partially retired and the company was doing really well. I have my four crews going and I'm making good money, so I don't need to go to the shop anymore. I have my sh- shop manager and they can take care of it. But one of my, uh, technicians, I showed up one morning, he told me, "Ramire, just so nice to see you. I wish I can see you a little bit more often, you know?" And right away I said, like, "Well, what do you need from me? Because you have the office manager, you have the field manager, and my goal is to not come to work anymore." It, it was, it was my mission, you know? Yeah. So I'm like, "What do you want from me?" And, and then I start digging a little bit deeper and I ask him the question again. I was like, "What do you mean by that?" And he told me, "Well, it is just kind of going to war, you know. Like, you have the king in the line, you know, and maybe he's not fighting with the rest of warriors, but he's in the front of the line, and it just feels really nice to have your leader next to you." So that gave me... That just got me going and l- start- start thinking, uh, where is my business and where, where do I wanna take it? Uh, so then I look around with my employees and I realized that they were stuck. They were never- Mm ... going to grow any farther because I was comfortable. And so I talked to Erin and I told her, "We need to do something with this," because the reality is that I'm not even gonna have great culture in my company because they are tapped out. They can maybe make a couple more dollars here, but there's no future. This is not a career. Uh, the turnover is too quick. Uh, so I decided to just try the HUGE convention. I told myself, "I'm just gonna go to the HUGE convention and see what they have." Uh, I thought that I really need it, didn't need it before, um, because we were doing okay. Uh, so I sign up for it, and I, I went in there and it just, wow, it blew my mind completely. I was super charged. I was just calling Erin every 20 minutes saying like, "Wow, I have this n- uh, idea. We, we have to do this. We have to apply it." And she didn't even know what I was talking about. Uh, and then I heard about the master, the HUGE mastermind- Um, and again, trust, uh, you got me. You, you got me to where I am with we- you know, the generous conversation we had originally. Uh, so I, I decided to just go for it. Uh, the transformation has been, uh, everything is different. Like I said the other day, uh, everything but the squeegees, we only kept the squeegees. Uh, everything else is different- in our company. It feels great to walk into our, our floors every day. Uh, the, the energy is clean. The crews are happy. Uh, everybody is rowing the same direction. Uh, and now that we have changed all these things, even the employees that they don't align, they get spit out automatically. Uh, it just, uh, it, it just happens. I don't need to even do anything, uh, with them, but they just decide to go because they don't align. So it's, it's been amazing. The culture feels strong. It feels clean. Uh, production, uh, since the last month since we started putting energy back into it, uh, it is a fif- 50% increase on, on production and revenue. Um- Wow. We are, we are thrilled. We have big goals. We set as a 70% for this year. We are at perfect track. Our first few months are slow. Uh, and we're, we're doing really well, pushing commercial like crazy with a sales manager. So, uh, same name, different company. Yeah. Gosh, that's great. With your, your sales manager, um, you hired a new guy this year, right? I did. Can you... Can you... Like, a lot of people listening, they, they probably... If most of the people listening to this program have been in their... They've had their business for a little while. They maybe have two to five employees, but they've got... What they have is an appetite for growth that's a lot bigger than where they are. Most of them probably haven't hired a salesperson yet. Talk about the, your sales guy. How'd you find him? How do you train him? What are they doing for you? Yeah. Uh, a- again, trust. As a guy that I know for, for many, many years, a guy that is way smarter and way more capable in that field that I am. Uh, it has brought, uh, so much, so much insight to the business, things that we had no idea that they were very important. He's working on those. Uh, so it was a close friend. I was able to land him through w- with a good conversation. It was a perfect timing. He was leaving his old job, and he's, uh, in the area, and he's willing to help us out for a couple years to build the rails so we can eventually, uh, transition into somebody else. But, uh, it, it is a re- it's a tricky position to be. You have your, your five guys going. You have your two or three crews, and you don't know what the next step is going to be. Uh, it feels, uh, too big, uh, uh, too insecure, too scary to, uh, take the next step, and so there's a lot of things to balance really. Uh, my, uh, my biggest issues, they were really culture. I, I didn't know how to build this culture without me being there. The culture was just my field manager, somebody else, and that started to set, uh, and it started to, uh, cement, uh, within the office, within... Yeah, it was just obvious. So that was my very first goal. It was I needed to produce and create, uh, leaders, uh, people that are driven, and they are motivated, uh, to, to grow, and they can see this as an opportunity and not just a paycheck. Uh, so we've been working, uh, crazy every single morning trying to build purpose, uh, for our employees. Uh, some of my new guys, they are 19, 20 years old, and they don't have a lot of things to look forward yet in life. And I'm like, "What's, what are you looking forward?" And he's like, "I don't know, just another day. This is... I'm doing fine. I don't need anything else." And so I'm really trying to tell him, like, "Hey, maybe new tire for your car, maybe a new car, maybe saving account. What is your purpose so you can get up every day and for it not to be as heavy?" Um, so yeah, maybe I'm just rumbling all over the place, uh, but there are too many things, uh, you have to handle. And I, I know it feels, it feels insecure, uh, to balance all these things, uh, to find the right proportion of production versus hiring. And, uh, about eight months ago, I didn't think I was ready for a sales manager. I did not think that I need it. I needed something else. Um, after a few months of work and getting things lined up, uh, and fixing many, many issues in the company, uh, we were, we were definitely ready. Uh, it's the best thing that we have done. Uh, finding the right person, who not how, it's, it's, uh, it is really, uh, the, the key for, for success. Uh, my time is limited. I only have 24 hours in every day, and that's not gonna change. But what it can change is the people that I surround myself. Uh, so just like in The Go-Giver, uh- Mm-hmm you need to surround yourself by the amazing group of warriors that they are constantly looking after you because you are constantly looking after them. And to have this community, it feels really, really good, and it feels safe. So, uh, I guess, uh, start working towards that. Yeah. Yeah. So with, uh, you and Aaron with your business, you've already... I mean, from the first year you've grown 15, 20 times over since the first year. And then this year you mentioned you've got a very aggressive growth, uh, goal. Like if you're, if you're doing 100,000 and your goal next year is to do 200,000, that's 100% growth rate, but that's not that big of a deal because it's a smaller number. But if you're at a million or 2 million and you go, "Hey, we wanna grow 70%," that's pretty aggressive. What are you guys doing to, um, to really press the gas pedal and achieve that kind of growth rate? Yeah. Um, uh, we need to fuel it. We need to make sure that we have the right systems, that we have the right person at the office, that we have the right, uh, marketing strategy, very well planned and structured. Uh, everything needs to fuel each other. So we cannot push marketing too much if I don't have the right amount of technicians with the right amount of training. So there is a lot of things to handle and to figure out. But yes, we are pushing incredibly hard this year. Uh, we are, uh, implementing every tool on the book. Everything that we have learned, we are applying to the business. So if I don't have the time to do it, I just get somebody to get the systems developed and get it going. Uh, so the changes, honestly, they are, they are all over the place. The company is a totally different company. Uh, in order for you to, uh, achieve great, um, revenue and to double or triple or go 50% or 100%, uh, you're gonna have to get a structure. You're gonna have to break things down. And in some ways, as you guys are teaching us, a little bit of reverse engineering, how does this look when it's fully done? Mm-hmm. And then how can you, how can I get there? And is this the right time? Do I need more time? Do I need more energy? Do I need more help? Uh, so, uh, the structure, uh, and, and guidance, again, it is, it is key. Uh, but yes, our goals for this year, it is, it is to go 70%. Our company is, um, it's, it's, uh, already successful, uh, but I don't see why I cannot, uh, provide for more families, better work, uh, more stability. Uh, so it, it's a, it's an amazing feel. That never gets old. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. So if you could slip back in time, let's just say eight years, you'd, you'd been in business two years, what if M- Ramiro today could talk to Ramiro and Aaron, Aaron from eight years ago, what sort of advice would you give the younger version of yourself, this, the new guy, the startup guy? Yeah. Honestly, don't be afraid. Uh, my biggest companies, my biggest clients right now, they are so big that I couldn't do it by myself. Mm-hmm. Uh, really don't be afraid. Uh, this is just windows. We can always go and touch it up. Uh, the, the problem really is our mind that sets, uh, sets boundaries, and it gets us shut down. We get comfortable with what we have. And being comfortable, it is a double-sided weapon. It feels nice, and it feels warm, uh, but it might not be the right place for you, at least not for that long. So I think stay... Be aware of what's happening around you. Don't lose track of reality. Set really, really big goals, and structure yourself. Uh, if you don't have the structure, find the help. Uh, find the people that have it and start copying. Surround yourself by, by the right, the right people. Uh, try not to reinvent the wheel, um, but copy, copy the right cat. Uh, so yeah, I think it's, uh, uh, try to find your balance. Do not get overwhelmed, because, uh, nothing stays still every day. You are forward and know where you were as much as it, it, it can feel like you're stuck two years ago. Uh, time goes by. And, um, yeah, um, balance, structure, uh, and just a little hard work. Yeah. Yeah. When... And, and definitely you're not afraid of the hard work. I mean, from a, a background from your youth, from climbing, um, all the way to now to building a business. One of the, one of the... my cheat codes have always had for Spectrum Window Cleaning is when we're hiring, is if anybody, uh, on their application, if they grew up on a farm or ranch or if they're a rock climber, they go straight to the front of the line, especially rock climbers, because they know how to solve problems. They know how to... Like, you've gotta have the vision to move forward. So I think that's probably a part of your, your success character. You know, that's kind of baked in, is you're a problem solver, and you're not afraid to just go for it. Yeah, definitely personalities. I feel like my personality fit really well for this type of work. I felt always like, uh, somebody's watching me and I'm cleaning this third story gutter system, and there's nothing on the corner but just two leaves, and nobody's ever gonna check, but I still go grab it because I just cannot leave it. It's just in my system. I feel like somebody's watching me, and I just gotta do it, do it right. So that is also part of the trust. You know, people, people trust that you're doing a really good job. We are, uh, offering a service, you know, and ultimately, uh, we need to be respectful. We need to be kind. They are inviting us to their home, and that is, in itself, it's an honor. Yeah. On top of that, they are giving us a lot of money, uh, for... Yeah, it is hard work. Uh, but there's other harder things to do, uh, with less pay around the world. So I think, uh, being also grateful for the place that we are, for the country that we live on, the water that we drink, and really stay focused and, and, uh, never lose the awareness, and find the happiness in the small things in life. Uh, and just, uh, stay present, I guess. Yeah. For sure. What's, what is, uh, you and Aaron, what's your plan for your business? Are you looking at, like, we're gonna grow it to a certain point and sell it, or you acquiring other companies, or just grow to a point where it, like, get it ready to sell, but don't sell it? Yeah. You know what? I, um, we, we do not want to sell. Uh, that is definitely not in our, in our, uh, plans at all. Uh, we have huge plans to keep expanding, uh, to just keep moving forward. Again, to keep surrounding ourselves to, with great people. Uh, and just, uh, keep acting as the visionaries. Uh, funny to say because, um, if I really think and I do that question to myself, how does it look when it is fully done, it is changing every single day. Uh, it is, it is hard to stay with one solid idea. Um, but definitely not selling. Definitely acquiring more businesses. Uh, definitely getting more services, uh, in, and, and reinventing ourselves, uh, every single day. So we are, we're thirsty. We're super motivated right now. Uh, I'm only 47. My dad was just telling me right now, "You gotta do it when you can." Yeah. Uh, opportunities do not last forever. Uh, and we kind of take things for granted sometimes. So, um, to provide amazing work for a lot of families, uh, for as many as I can, um, that's, that sounds like my, my mission. Uh, eventually to help other business owners to, uh, be successful and to, and for them to provide for other ones. Uh, it sounds like a, it sounds like a really good deal to me. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a great goal and mission to help as many other people as you can while, you know, you're, like, you're doing well while doing well for others. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I do believe in one hand washes the other hand. I say this in my morning meetings every time, and I'm like, "Well, all by yourself you cannot do it. This part is always dirty, so I need somebody to get me. And if you are that person, I am committed that I will get the back of your hand." And the relationship should feel balanced in that way. And if it's starting to feel a little bit uneven, then start to maybe have a conversation and say, "I am putting too much," or, or you are. But, uh, that's, that's what we really try, uh, and that is my, my way of living one hand washes the other hand. Uh, and yeah, work hard, uh, but find a really good reason to do it, not just, not just the money, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. So is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up, whether it's about business advice or principles you live by, or the motivation that a person needs to really grow? Yeah, no. I think just, uh, encourage everybody to, uh, to think about why am I doing this? Uh, what is my motivation? Uh, you know, the alarm clock is the same thing for everybody. But when we have a fishing trip the next day, we are excited to hear that alarm clock. Uh, so let's try to find that every day. And I know that it's work, but if it's not just work, but it is, uh, another house or another car, or maybe a house for your mom, or something that it is meaningful, then you get up and do the things, uh, with, with a better, better heart than mind. So just really think about why am I doing this? Uh, it's probably my advice. And again, thanks for having me here. Hope that this was helpful for anybody. I am always available if anybody needs or has any other questions, I would love to, uh, be a resource in the future. That's great. Well, Romero, thank you very much. And tell Aaron I said hi. And, uh, I look forward to seeing you both in August at the huge convention and our ne- our next mastermind gathering. We are super excited. We're bringing, in fact, our office manager and, and the whole, the whole crew. Um, so it should be, it should really fun. R- really excited. Uh, Sid, thanks again for this time, and until next time You got it. Thank you, Romel. Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, wanna let you know the mission for the Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help, uh, blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called The Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the Huge Foundation's education platform. That has... We've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you, and every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners, and it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the Huge Convention or The Huge Convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd in 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got... We've got, um, education, world-class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to thehugeconvention.com and scroll down, click on the Freedom Path, or of course, you can find the links here in the show notes. So sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you like the show, go ahead... I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. Man, it would really mean the world to us. It would help other people, and as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode.
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Gabe Salinas, founder of Window Ninjas, to talk about what it really takes to grow a home service business beyond the owner. Gabe started cleaning windows at 17, built a decades-long career in the industry, and eventually launched Window Ninjas, which has grown into 12 locations across the Southeast.
This conversation is especially valuable for business owners who are trying to move from “running around with their hair on fire” to building a company that can actually scale. Gabe shares how systems, SOPs, training, accountability, leadership development, and strong relationships became the foundation of the Window Ninjas franchise model.
Sheila and Gabe also talk about hiring, delegation, EOS, scorecards, technician training, family leadership, franchise growth, and the importance of creating time and financial freedom. The biggest takeaway: if you want a business that can grow without consuming your life, you have to develop leaders who can carry the mission forward.
 
Resources:
Window Ninjas
Window Ninjas Franchise
Gabe Salinas
Window Ninjas LinkedIn
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook Group
 
Transcript:
 
Sid Graef: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations Podcast. I’m Sid Graef out of Montana.
Gabe Torres: I’m Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee.
Sheila Smeltzer: And I’m Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina.
Sid Graef: We’re your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven- and eight-figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Gabe Torres: Yep, no fake gurus on this show, just real-life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably.
Sheila Smeltzer: We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let’s dive in.
Sheila Smeltzer: Welcome to the Huge Transformations Podcast. This is your host and contributor, Sheila Smeltzer, based out of North Carolina. And today, I have invited another fellow North Carolinian. His name is Gabe Salinas, and you may know about Window Ninjas franchise. Gabe is a 34-year window cleaner. He’s 51 years old, and he is now in 12 locations in the Southeast. He originated in Wilmington, North Carolina, and has built out a franchise model, and he’s done it through developing leaders.
And this is really a lot of what we talk about today. We talk a lot about building the playbook, building the systems that are required, along with leadership, to be able to grow and scale your company.
I really enjoyed this. Gabe is a friendly competitor of mine. He’s in my market. We’ve known each other for a long time, and it’s just super fun to be able to sit down and have such an engaging and relatable conversation with somebody that you know so well, and you know their company through firsthand experience.
This is a great, great episode. I know that listeners will gain so much from it. He just has a certain style that I think you’ll appreciate. I can’t wait for you to listen to this, and thank you so much for joining us today.
Sheila Smeltzer: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Huge Transformations Podcast. I am your host and contributor, Sheila Smeltzer out of North Carolina, and I have another North Carolinian on the show today, Gabe Salinas with Window Ninjas. Hello, Gabe.
Gabe Salinas: Hey, Sheila. How are you today?
Sheila Smeltzer: I’m doing awesome, as always.
Gabe Salinas: Good. It’s good to be here with you.
Sheila Smeltzer: Yeah. No, I love that you have joined us on the show because you are 100%—you’ve been in the industry longer than I have, and you’ve actually scaled your company into a franchise, and you’re a local competitor of mine, and you are not in the Huge Mastermind. So this is super cool. I love this.
We’ve got so much to talk about today, but why don’t you tell our audience about you, how you got started? You’ve been in the business for 34 years.
Gabe Salinas: Yeah, I mean, you wake up one day and you’re like, “Wow, 34 years.”
Sheila Smeltzer: Yeah.
Gabe Salinas: It’s a long time. Over three decades. But I started when I was 17. It was a summer job before going to college when I got out of high school. I graduated when I was 17, and I have a late birthday in the year.
I went to college after cleaning windows for a summer, and college wasn’t for me. I just knew it wasn’t. I knew it going into it. So about half a semester in, I just came back. Then I got my job back, picked up my squeegee, and I just never stopped after that.
Sheila Smeltzer: Okay, so this all started in Wilmington, or where are you originally from?
Gabe Salinas: No, I grew up in Fayetteville, North Carolina. My dad was in the military, so I basically grew up in a military household. I was around all those elite fighter guys.
My older sister had gone on to school at NC State. She’s about seven years older than me. When I graduated high school, she called me and said, “Hey, you’re not going to sit on your butt all summer and do nothing before you go to school. You’re going to come to Raleigh and live with me for the summer so you can basically make some money, because you’re not going to be able to make money when you go to college.”
And I was like, “Okay. Cool. Sign me up.” I’m very good at listening to my elders, so I was like, “Gina called me. I gotta go.”
She introduced me to a guy that she had been cleaning windows for over the summers while she was at NC State. We jumped in a van the first day, cleaning windows somewhere on Hillsborough Street in downtown Raleigh.
Sheila Smeltzer: Love that.
Gabe Salinas: Yeah, it was easy. It was a little weird and easy, too. You look back at things and you’re like, “Okay, we’re four dudes jumping in a van, jumping out of a van, washing some windows. They’re giving me these orders of what to do. ‘Hey, grab that bucket. Pick up that pole. Hey, dum-dum, don’t pick up that squeegee. You want the other one.’”
That was all in the first hour. I didn’t realize it then, and most of us don’t, the first time you pick up a squeegee and you’re doing your first job, you’re just like, “Okay, this is how it is.”
But what’s unique, Sheila, is probably about a month ago I was thinking of that. We had a new batch of window cleaners that we recently hired. I don’t really get to interact with those guys very often, but I was in the back one morning and one of the new guys came in. We got to chit-chatting and it made me think, “You know, these guys really get trained well.”
Our managers really show them everything from, “Here’s your bucket. These are the tools. This is the proper way to utilize them.” They go through this systematic way of training. I was like, “Dang, I didn’t get any of that back in the day.”
Somebody was throwing a T-bar at you and saying, “Pick that up and start scrubbing the glass.” No formal training, no training manual, none of that mess. Those were the early days. We just kind of learned how to do it by winging it.
Sheila Smeltzer: Well, I mean, here’s the thing. I’m sure a lot of people listening, this is still what it looks like. Either they’re out there figuring it out, they’re watching YouTube videos, they’re in groups online or social, they’re watching people do stuff. They’re going out, trying it on their own. It’s trial by error and figuring out, “Okay, that didn’t work. I gotta go back and watch some more YouTube videos.”
Or I promise there’s many companies listening right now that don’t have any formal training in place, that are hiring people, maybe the first one or two people that come in that respond to the ad, they’re throwing them out there in the truck on day one. And they’re complaining after day one that that guy sucks.
Gabe Salinas: Right. You’re so right, Sheila. There’s probably a lot of people out there that are doing it. It does cost a lot of money to bring somebody in and train them and teach them. It’s time-consuming and it is costly.
Sheila Smeltzer: It is costly, and thanks for saying that. I remember Jim Willingham, the late, great window cleaning icon who was one of the founders of IWCA. I was lucky enough, at one of my first conventions, to see him speak. He did a session called “Hire Slow, Fire Fast,” and that really stuck with me because it’s true.
If you bring people on the right way, if you have a hiring process, training process, and you invest in the right way, if they don’t do the thing, they’re out. Because you did all that to support their success, right? The ones that you do that with stick around, and they will actually turn out to be really good employees.
Gabe Salinas: Yeah, they do. Over 34 years, you start to learn things. The first company I was with, it was just like what we’re talking about. It was just like, “You’ll figure it out. Just do this.” It was like that every single day.
What’s funny is, I’ve basically been with two companies over my 30-year career. I was part of a franchise company that wasn’t a franchise when I started with them, but decided to franchise out. They were that company that was just all wing it. You can figure it out. There were no real systems.
My oldest son is 31. He just had his 31st birthday. He’s grown up in the window cleaning industry. We put him out there when he was 15 years old cleaning windows in the summer.
When we left that other company and started Window Ninjas about eight years ago, within the first month he called me and said, “Hey, you know what we’re not doing now?”
I was like, “Oh boy. What customer did we just lose?”
He goes, “We’re not running around with our hair on fire.”
Every single day with that other company, we were running around with our hair on fire. There were no systems, no processes. It was, “You’ll figure it out. Oh, we do it this way. You should try that.”
We didn’t realize that our whole life with that company was that way until we finally broke free and said, “Man, we are done with this.” We didn’t really realize what we were frustrated with until we left.
Then we realized it when he called me and said, “Man, every day is great now. We wake up, we have systems, we have this process. Our teams come in. Whenever we’re training somebody, we’re teaching them. We bring them in and show them, ‘These are your tools. This is how we use your tools.’”
We isolate them for a day and start showing them the ropes without being bombarded by deadlines. We’re not at somebody’s house where we can only be there for two hours because we have the next job in two hours. You can’t really train somebody well by putting them in a life-or-death situation.
Sheila Smeltzer: Can I ask you a question?
Gabe Salinas: Go ahead.
Sheila Smeltzer: Reese, what role does he play in Window Ninjas today?
Gabe Salinas: Technically, I call him my operations officer. All of our franchisees call him. They don’t call me. When it comes to needing help with a service or understanding a tricky job, they call him. We’ve all got those tricky jobs where you get out there and you’re like, “How the heck are we going to do this?”
They don’t call me. They call him. I’m the one with more experience, but Reese has grown up in the industry. We put him on a truck when he was 15. He’s 31 now. He’s got 15 years of experience under his belt. He’s a guy’s guy, so everybody loves him.
He handles all the operations side. If franchisees or our corporate store managers have questions, they go straight to him. They don’t even bother me anymore.
Sheila Smeltzer: I love that. How many Window Ninjas franchises are there, Gabe? Where are you at?
Gabe Salinas: We’re in 12 locations between North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, and Georgia.
Sheila Smeltzer: Okay, so Southeast region. Good for you. And Reese oversees basically all of your franchise locations?
Gabe Salinas: He oversees our corporate stores. We have four corporate stores: Wilmington, Charleston, Columbia, South Carolina, and Myrtle Beach. Reese lives in Charleston, and he oversees operations there directly with his manager, who has been with us since he was 15.
Sheila Smeltzer: Wow.
Gabe Salinas: Yeah. Those two guys pretty much grew up together. They’re best buds, and both of them are great guys.
Sheila Smeltzer: So Connor is your other son, I presume?
Gabe Salinas: No, Connor was an acquaintance. He was a friend of Reese in high school. He needed a summer job one summer, and I said, “Come on over in the afternoons and start washing the trucks. Help me around the shop.”
Next thing you know, me and Reese are out cleaning windows, and now they’re down in the South running corporate stores. They’re doing a great job. They really are.
Sheila Smeltzer: I love that. So now we’re talking second generation. When did you start to franchise? It hasn’t been that long, correct?
Gabe Salinas: We got all of our documentation and everything finished last year. So right around the first of 2025, we were able to get all of our locations signed as franchisees. Then we brought another one on later last year.
Now we’re looking to grow some more. My role has changed a little bit. I’m heading up the franchise sales division and trying to find good qualified buyers for new locations so they can be successful in the location they want to be in, and Window Ninjas can continue to build its brand and grow through franchising.
Sheila Smeltzer: When you go into a new location, are you doing any acquisitions, or are you starting new and building from the model?
Gabe Salinas: We don’t acquire. We don’t go knocking on doors asking window cleaning companies if they’d like to buy into Window Ninjas. We find people who are looking for time freedom and financial freedom. They typically come from the corporate world or the blue-collar world, and they want an opportunity to create some sort of time and financial freedom for themselves.
It seems like the time freedom aspect supersedes the financial freedom aspect these days. I’m looking for people who want an opportunity. They don’t want to reinvent the wheel. They want experience backing the company, and we offer that.
We have a great system, and we’ve developed a really great team. We just had our service manager, Lewis, who managed our Wilmington corporate store for the last four years. He took advantage of our scholarship program and is now over in Charlotte. He opened up that market for us, and now he’s a franchisee.
We give our employees an opportunity to continue to grow with us. For every year you’re here, we’re going to give you X amount of dollars toward a franchise fee. The franchise fee is $59,500. Lewis had almost $60,000 worth of equity built up just because he joined our team, was a solid employee, treated the Wilmington service location like it was his own, helped grow it, and helped train employees.
When he came to me and said, “My wife got a great job offer in Charlotte, and I want to take my opportunity,” I said, “Awesome.” Instead of having an employee leave you, he earned his own franchise. He’s happy he gets to stay in the system, and he’s building that time and financial freedom I talk about.
Sheila Smeltzer: There are so many things I want to talk to you about. You are 100% right. A lot of the people I interview on this podcast, whether they’re involved in the mastermind or new startups, are people who came from corporate and want time freedom. They want to love what they do. Financial freedom is a big one, too.
But then they dive in and realize, “Wow, there’s a lot more to this.” It’s a pretty simple business model, but there are a lot of ins and outs.
I’m curious, Gabe, how did you build your franchise model? I’ve been writing my playbook for about three years now, and I feel like it’s ever-changing. How do you get to a model that you can scale into all these different markets?
Gabe Salinas: That’s a great question. I hear a lot of talk these days about playbooks, and playbooks are important.
When I left the franchise company I was with and opened Window Ninjas, our first year kind of sucked. People knew me and knew who I was, and we had relationships, so we were able to generate leads and jobs to keep our locations going. But after that first year, I was like, “Something is not right. There’s a reason we’re not scaling.”
I’m impatient, so I like to scale fast. I found a business coach. One of our franchisees had reached out to me before he was even a franchisee and said, “I’ve got this guy you need to listen to. He’s on a podcast, and I think he could help you.”
I started listening to the podcast, and I was like, “Dang, Pat, that’s a good one. I’m going to call that guy.” So I did. He started coaching me. You’re spending $2,000 a month to get coached, and you’re like, “Wow, that’s a lot of money.” But I knew if I didn’t do something like that, we weren’t going to be able to grow and scale as fast as I wanted.
I knew how to clean windows. I knew how to build relationships. I knew how to hire great people and have them do tasks. But I didn’t know how to organize everything, build a playbook, build systems, and build processes.
When I got a hold of this coach, they started asking, “What does this look like? How do you answer the phone? How many Google reviews do you have? What’s your SEO score?” All these questions. And you’re like, “I don’t know.” They showed me some stuff, and we started moving in that direction.
Then they told me, “Now that you have these basic things done, start writing out the process for every single thing that goes on in the business.”
Sheila Smeltzer: The SOPs, baby.
Gabe Salinas: Oh my God. Everybody says, “Man, really? It’s up here in the brain.”
Sheila Smeltzer: It’s unleashing it and putting it into a document.
Gabe Salinas: Exactly. You’re like, “But they know how to answer the phone. Just pick it up and say your company name.” They’re like, “No. It doesn’t work that way, Gabe.”
Those guys basically told me, “You’re going to lock yourself in a room, shut the windows, close the blinds, nobody is going to bother you, and you’re going to start writing everything out from start to finish.”
They gave me a guide. It was a big, long sheet with all these different things written on it. They said, “Take one at a time. Write out the process for this, and once you get that one done, we’ll review it.”
It took me about a year to get it where it needed to be, but it’s never done because something always comes up. There’s new technology, different phone systems, social media, new equipment, safety manuals, how to answer the phone. Every time you introduce something new, version one becomes version two, version two becomes version three, and something else becomes obsolete.
Sheila Smeltzer: So who’s in charge of that now? With the constant evolving of the company, who’s in charge of changes?
Gabe Salinas: That’s a great question. We’re talking about window cleaning, right? Most window cleaning companies in America are one- to two-man teams. Then you start having companies like my size, your size, where you have three to seven trucks, crew leaders, employees, and all that stuff.
That’s where leadership development comes in. For some reason, I’ve been very good at being able to develop leadership teams. I coach all of our franchisees on developing their own leadership teams within their backyard.
My major leadership team is me, Reese, and my wife, Melissa. I’m the CEO, Reese is the COO, and Melissa is the CFO. Melissa has always had an accounting brain. From the moment I met her, she understood finances.
All of our franchisees go straight to her when they have issues with QuickBooks, balancing checkbooks, audits, or taxes. She has an assistant that helps her, so she’s built out her entire system on that side.
When it comes to franchising, we had these departments built. Franchisees can get accounting education from Melissa and her team. If a franchisee has a problem with a water-fed pole or a weird product they’ve never seen before, they go straight to Reese.
They have their playbook, but they still want that conversation. They want somebody to hold their hand. Reese is happy to say, “Hey, man, let me show you how to do this.” Melissa is happy to say, “Let me look at your stuff with you.”
Those are leaders. Leaders aren’t people who just bark orders and say, “Go do this” or “Go figure it out.” Leaders love their people, hold their people accountable, and train their people how to do things the right way.
When you have people like that, problems come up, but those problems get solved and go away. A lot of times, I don’t even see or stress about many of the problems in the day-to-day operations.
Sheila Smeltzer: This is really special because what I’m hearing is that you’ve developed a culture in Window Ninjas by developing your leadership team through consistent growth in relationships with the people working with you. They’ve found opportunities to escalate through the company, and now they’re your new leaders.
You’re super fortunate to have your wife in the finance seat, your son who knows operations really well and is very likable, and yourself with your business experience. Then you’re carrying that on and passing it through. A lot of the support in how you’re managing these franchises is through relationships.
Gabe Salinas: Yeah, it comes back to relationships. It really does.
Sheila Smeltzer: That’s extraordinary because business can become very transactional. Even with a franchise model, a lot of feedback I get from franchise competitors—not Window Ninjas, but other franchise competitors—is that it can be a very transactional experience with the customer.
Customers want to do business with a company they know, like, and trust. I applaud you for making relationships part of your culture and maintaining that as you grow and scale.
Gabe Salinas: I appreciate that. There are a lot of companies out there that are not like that. Every day, when I come into my call center and talk to my manager and the CSRs, I remind them that our customers are what make us.
If we treat customers with respect, treat them fairly, and they like us, they’re going to buy more of our services and we’ll keep those customers.
This is a service business. A lot of people lose focus of that. You’re providing a service. It’s like when you go through the Chick-fil-A line. It’s backed up 20 deep, but you’re happy to get that sandwich because not only does it taste good, but they say, “Thank you.” They’re warm and welcoming.
If you treat your customers like that and treat your employees that way, good things happen.
Sheila Smeltzer: I want to shift gears a little bit. We’ve talked a lot about what’s good, but share some things that have been really difficult, or anything you would do differently. Maybe mistakes you made or things that were a terrible idea.
Gabe Salinas: I try not to dwell on things that are negative. If something doesn’t work, it just didn’t work, and we go find something that does work.
Sometimes it’s buying the wrong type of vehicle. We started with vans back in the day, and those weren’t quite the best system for us. Then we switched to trucks, and those trucks were great.
Going back to Reese, he figured out what worked. He called me one day and said, “These are the trucks we’re going to buy from here on out. This is how they’re going to be set up, how they’re going to be wrapped, and what equipment is going to go on them.”
He took that leadership role in operations and said, “I’m going to figure out the equipment and how we’re going to put all this together. All of our franchisees and corporate stores are going to run this model, and that’s going to solve us a whole lot of problems.”
I asked him how he figured that out, and he walked me through what he had been studying, reading, learning, and testing.
I learned early on that you typically do the things you like to do, and you avoid the things you don’t like to do. If you don’t like doing something, you better hire somebody to do it for you.
Sheila Smeltzer: Delegation. One of the five leadership abilities.
Gabe Salinas: Yep. That’s how you develop other leaders. You trust them and thank them for solving a problem.
Anybody can take an entry-level window cleaner who has never cleaned windows in their life, and if you mentor them, nurture them, and lead them, just like your parents did with you, you walk them through the steps.
A lot of guys think, “I need to do it all myself. If I don’t do it, it’s not going to get done right.” That’s a problem because you can’t scale yourself that way. You can never create time freedom that way, and you can never create financial freedom that way.
But if you write down the processes, systems, and the way you want things done for your customers and your business, you can give employees a playbook and train them. Once they’re trained, they gain confidence, do a great job, make customers happy, and eventually become great crew leaders.
Sheila Smeltzer: Where does accountability come in? How do you inject the accountability? That has probably been one of the biggest struggles for me.
Do you have a process where technicians know what they’re responsible for, there’s tracking of that, and you’re making sure they are performing to their role?
Gabe Salinas: That’s hard because most people don’t want to do that. It’s all the behind-the-scenes work nobody sees.
You have to keep a scorecard. Track their metrics. Maybe they had a great day cleaning windows, but they didn’t turn in their fuel receipt. If you have a scorecard, you can say, “Do I have my fuel receipt? How much chemical did you use?” Whatever matters to you, you need to measure it.
If you measure those things, then you can talk to your employees about them. “Great job turning in all your receipts this week. I appreciate you getting all those add-on services. Thanks for checking the filters on the DI machines. Thanks for letting me know we were short on sodium hypochlorite.”
Whatever the metrics are, you have those conversations. If you don’t track the things that matter to you, you can’t give employees raises, pat them on the back, or reprimand them for driving without a seatbelt.
If they’re driving without a seatbelt and you never told them they had to use a seatbelt, why are you yelling at them? It doesn’t have to be a bad conversation. It needs to be a quality conversation so you can hold your team accountable in a professional and loving way.
Hard conversations are called hard conversations for a reason. If you’re going to lead a team, you have to lead the team through the good, the bad, and the ugly.
God forbid one of your team members has an accident or gets hurt. Holding them accountable could potentially save their life.
Sheila Smeltzer: There is that whole mid-management training. Teaching people how to hold critical conversations, what works, and what doesn’t work.
I was fortunate to have Amanda Powell on the podcast. She does mid-management training, and I’ve brought her in. What she taught me about developing and training that level was gold.
It’s one thing to train a tech, but it’s another thing to train people how to manage. Not everybody is good at it. I hate managing people. I want to be friends with everybody. I had to bring somebody in who was good at accountability.
Do you run any type of system? We started implementing EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System, about three years ago. I know a lot of our listeners through the Huge Mastermind use FOS, Freedom Operating System. Do you use anything like that?
Gabe Salinas: I kind of use a hodgepodge of all of it. EOS was a book I read quite a while ago. Reese called me last winter and said, “I started reading EOS. We gotta do some of these things.”
I said, “Cool. Awesome. I read it too. Go for it, Reese.” EOS works really well. I’ve noticed companies that utilize EOS typically can scale faster and grow faster.
But EOS comes with a price tag, and that price tag is accountability. You have to be able to hold people accountable.
If there’s something you don’t like to do, hire somebody to do it. That’s how you buy your time and financial freedom. You go from cleaning windows to hiring a service technician. Then you train that technician to become a truck leader. Give them an opportunity to make more money and grow their skills.
When you start putting yourself out of a job, if there’s something you don’t like to do, you hire somebody to do it because otherwise you’re going to procrastinate, not do it well, and affect a lot of people in your organization.
I look at people like, “How can they help me, and how can I help them?” If we give them the skills and knowledge they need to do the things we’re happy to pay them for, they’re going to be successful, have a great career, and I won’t have to take out the trash.
Sheila Smeltzer: One of my earliest coaches gave me one of the most impactful exercises I ever did. He said, “Write down everything you do for a week. Your tasks, your responsibilities, everything.”
After that week, we sat down with the list and started to say, “What are the things only you have to do, and what are the things other people can do for you?” That helped me develop the roles I needed in the company.
The first thing was hiring a salesperson, and I love sales. I didn’t want to hire a salesperson. But that was the one thing that would free up the most time for me to focus on the business.
From there, it was a CSR. Then a bookkeeper. That helped me start to develop the roles. From an audit standpoint, asking current roles to write down what they’re doing day-to-day shows you where there’s crossover.
You might have a CSR doing operations stuff, operations people doing sales stuff, and so on. That can be supportive teamwork, but it can also create tension between departments and roles.
Gabe Salinas: I think most companies, when they get around that three- to five-person range, start experiencing those kinds of things. That’s where a lot of companies either stop growing because the owner doesn’t want to learn a new skill, and that’s okay.
I always ask people, especially franchisees or potential franchisees, “What are you looking for? What do you want your life to look like? How many people do you want to lead? Are you capable of leading? If I gave you 10 people to lead today, is that really what you want to do?”
It comes back to finding out what you like to do and finding people to do the things you don’t like doing. If you don’t like holding somebody accountable, you better find a very good manager. You’re still going to have to hold that manager accountable, but sometimes it’s better to work one-on-one with somebody than to work with 10 different people.
That’s where managers really make their money: holding people accountable, doing the things you don’t want to do because they’ve got so many different people to manage. If they do a great job, that creates efficiency, and you can afford to pay them well.
Sheila Smeltzer: I’m wildly curious. What is your 10-year plan?
Gabe Salinas: It always changes. I’d like to see us grow to 30 locations. If Reese could then take over and start trying to grow it to 60 or something, I don’t know what he’s looking for. But I’d like to get us to 30.
Me and Melissa would eventually like to step back and put the reins in somebody else’s hands and go enjoy life after 60. I’m 51. She’s getting ready to turn 50.
In 10 years, we want to hang out with our grandkids. Reese has two kids. Our youngest son, Baden, is at Syracuse University, so he’s in college. He has another year and a half or two, and he’ll be out in the world doing his thing.
We want to do what grandparents do. We want to go spend time with our grandkids. We’re going to see Brock play T-ball this weekend. Those things start to supersede business. You only have one life, so you have to live it.
You’ll always hear me come back to the same thing: I’m going to do what I like to do. If that means I have to hire somebody to do the things I don’t have the time or energy to do, then I’m going to create another job so I can do the things I like and want to do.
Sheila Smeltzer: I’m in pretty much the exact same timeframe as you. I’m turning 51, and I’ve been in this for 26 years. We start to plan out what succession looks like, what our end game looks like, what life looks like.
Being so involved in my company, I wonder what I would do if I wasn’t in the day-to-day. I’m a very hands-on business owner, and I love it. But I think about what my next thing is.
This is ultimately the entrepreneurial dream, right? You create the life you want to live.
Gabe Salinas: That’s it. That’s the cool thing about being an entrepreneur and a business owner. You can create the life you want to live.
If we decided today that we don’t want to work on Fridays, we’re not working on Fridays. I made that rule last year, and I’ve pretty much stuck to it. Fridays, I don’t really come into the office.
Me and you, Sheila, we’re elders. We’ve got a young batch of newcomers coming into the scene. They’re starting their window cleaning companies. They’re excited. They have that youth exuberance we had 30 years ago. They’re going to own the world, and they should.
When they hit 50, they’re going to say either, “I’m still cleaning windows,” or, “I’ve got a team of people who clean windows for me, and they do a great job. I’m happy I organized my business so they can make money for themselves and their families, and I can step back and enjoy my life.”
We work so hard for 30-some years that eventually you want to say, “We can keep this thing moving, but I need to hand the reins over to the right person to lead.”
I keep coming back to leadership. You can look at playbooks, SOPs, and documentation, but it still comes down to leadership. If you’re not hiring the right people and training them to be the best they can be, you’re never going to have leaders who can take your business and operate it without you.
As entrepreneurs, that’s really what we’re chasing: time freedom. We want to go hang out on the beach in Tahiti for six weeks. We want to go surfing in South America for the winter. We want to go to Spain in the summer. You can live those dreams, but you have to create the system for that to happen.
Sheila Smeltzer: In EOS, with different seats and roles, we call it GWC. They have to get it, want it, and have the capacity to do it. It’s all about right person, right seat.
Developing your leadership team means having the ability to identify people’s talents and know if they’re suited for that role. That’s a strong ability for growth.
Gabe Salinas: It’s tough. Somebody can come into an interview and be Mr. Wonderful.
Sheila Smeltzer: I’m bad for that. I don’t honestly do the hiring anymore because I’m like, “They were great. Let’s hire them.”
Gabe Salinas: I’m with you. I try to stay away from it, but I do get involved on the back side.
It’s hard finding the right people, but you need to utilize tools like assessment tests. We have a hiring process that is a little long. Most window cleaning companies listening are probably saying, “I need guys today. I don’t have a month to wait.”
But if you’re not always looking for people, you’re going to be behind the eight ball when that person you depended on leaves. Then you’re right back where you started, lacking time freedom, because you’re out there on the truck cleaning Jenny’s house because Jenny is your best customer.
You can develop a leadership team. It’s hard, but I highly recommend it. Get leaders to do the things your leaders need to do. They’re your barrier. They’re protection for you and your time.
Every company has issues, and we do too at Window Ninjas, but I don’t see most of those issues. Somebody backed into a car, someone left the DI pole at somebody’s house, somebody fell off a ladder, whatever it is. I’m not involved in that day-to-day because I’ve developed my leadership team and taught them how to handle those situations.
If a storm window breaks, it’s no big deal to us because we’ve lived it. But it’s a big deal to the service technician who was never trained on it. If you’re not training your guy, you’re putting his life at risk. A storm window could take somebody’s arm off.
Write out your systems. Teach by your systems. Teach by your processes. You’ll be able to scale, and you’ll sleep better at night, too.
Sheila Smeltzer: Gabe, I’ve learned a lot about you today. Much more than ever sitting down and having lunch together could have done. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast so I could get to know you better and so we could share your story with all the listeners who are trying to do exactly what you’re accomplishing.
The overwhelming message in this podcast is that developing your leadership team is a major key to success, growth, and scale. You’re 100% right, and it’s great for all of us to hear. Thank you for taking us through that.
Gabe Salinas: You’re welcome. I appreciate you having me on. I like talking about what we do. Anybody out there who has 10 years, 20 years under their belt should like to talk about what they do and what their experiences are. That’s how we pass that information on to the next generation.
Sheila Smeltzer: And to know that we’re not alone. You and I are dealing with a lot of the same things. That’s the other part that’s so great about having communities in the industry. We can all lean on each other.
My big thing is, let’s be professional. Let’s increase the professionalism of what we’re doing so we have a strong playing field and can charge what we need to charge. Bringing somebody in and delegating responsibilities comes at a financial cost, and we have to make the money to be able to do this.
Gabe Salinas: Oh yeah. You can burn through some money if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Sheila Smeltzer: Maybe we can come back to that and do another show.
Gabe Salinas: For sure.
Sheila Smeltzer: Cool. Well, thanks, Gabe. I really appreciate you joining us today. This has been an amazing conversation, and I know all of our listeners gained a lot from hearing your story.
Gabe Salinas: I appreciate you having me. Anytime you want some more information, just give me a ring.
Sid Graef: Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today’s episode. I hope you got some value from it.
Anything that was covered, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it’s easy for you to find and check it out.
I also want to let you know, the mission for The Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help blue-collar business owners like you and I gain financial and time freedom through running a better business, and we do that in four ways.
Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It’s called The Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise, and this one’s free.
Next is the Huge Foundations education platform. We’ve got over 120 hours of industry-specific education and resources for you. Every month we do a topical webinar, and we do question and answer with seven- and eight-figure business owners, and it’s available to you for a $1 trial for seven days.
Next, of course, is The Huge Convention. If you haven’t been, you have to check it out. It’s every August. This year it’s in Nashville, Tennessee. That’s August 20th through 22nd in 2025, and it is the largest and number-one-rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We’ve got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools, meet the vendors, and check out the software to run your business. We’ve got world-class education, educators, and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. It’s the best networking opportunity you can have within the home service business.
Lastly, if you want to pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind. Now, it’s not for everyone. You’ve got to be at over $750,000 of revenue and building toward $1 million, $5 million, or $10 million in the next five years. It is a network, mentorship, and mastermind of your peers. We help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System.
You can get all the information on all four of these programs and how they’ll help you advance your business quickly by going to thehugeconvention.com and scrolling down to click on the Freedom Path, or of course, you can find the links here in the show notes.
Sorry, I feel like I’m getting a little wordy, but I just want to let you know about the resources available to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful small business.
Keep on growing. Keep on learning. Keep advancing. And if you like the show, if you would take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, it would really mean the world to us. It would help other people as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me.
Thanks again for listening. We’ll see you on the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with Lev Golosov, founder of Garage Floor Masters, to talk about what it really takes to build a successful home service business from nothing. Lev immigrated from Russia, started in pressure washing with no experience, and eventually grew into multiple service lines, multiple locations, and a more systemized business built around people, persistence, and constant improvement.
This conversation is especially valuable for home service owners who are still in the messy middle of growth. Lev shares lessons from losing $30,000 worth of equipment before Garage Floor Masters ever really got off the ground, why he believes taking care of employees comes before taking care of customers, and how referral systems, reviews, Google, yard signs, and multiple marketing touches all work together. Sid and Lev also talk about AI, entrepreneurship, immigrant mindset, financial discipline, and why the people who win in business are usually the ones who refuse to quit.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider Newsletter Signup
The Huge Insider Podcast Action Guide
The Huge Mastermind Info Page
Facebook Group
The Huge Convention
Garage Floor Masters
Garage Floor Masters Facebook
The Dream Manager by Matthew Kelly
 
Transcript:
 
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in. The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders. And every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am really glad to see you here. Today's gonna be fun, whereas they all are, but this is really cool because we get to interview a good friend of mine. His name is Lev Golo. Lev in Russian means lion. So you're gonna meet my friend, Lev the Lion. We've known each other for about six years, and currently we're in the same. Mastermind together, the huge Mastermind, which is a mastermind that is, that is ideally situated for home service business owners that are at or above that $1 million threshold in annual revenue and want to five x 10 x their business in the next few years. And it's a very. Deliberate Mastermind. It's not just a bunch of guys sharing ideas, but there's a curriculum. We've got leaders and uh, co-host or owners that have grown businesses to. 2 million, 5 million, 40 million. And if you are on a growth trajectory or you want to grow and you feel stuck, you gotta check out the huge mastermind because getting in the room with like-minded business builders that are all at seven figures, eight figures and above, like if you wanna grow to that point, that's the room you need to be in. So with that, let's talk about Lev. Lev and I have known each other for six years. He immigrated from Russia. Over a decade ago and started a home service business with no experience, no money, and no connections. It now operates a almost completely automated multi seven figure business in Knoxville, Tennessee, also Atlanta, Georgia, and they're soon to open a third location. I don't think it's public yet, so I won't say it. You know, love is quiet, spoken, and very modest. But if you listen carefully, you're gonna get nuggets and takeaways and wisdom that could shave years off your learning curve as a small business owner. With that, everything that we talk about, if there all the resources that we mention, um, as well as the huge mastermind, all of that's gonna be in the show notes. You can just poke and click and hit the resource page so you can get all the links. And we made it easy for you. There's a tunnel learning here. Enjoy the conversation with my friend Lev, Lev the Lion. Hey everyone, it's Sid with the Huge Transformation Podcast, and I have my good friend Lev Golo on as a guest today for, to interview. And I'm really excited because Lev, um, we were chatting about something recently by text, and you sent me a photo from six years ago. It was at Responsive Con in Arizona in February of 2000, and I always refer to that event as the day before the world changed. It was the last live event that I was at before COVID hit and everything shut down. Yeah, so it was kind of a momentous. Time and I was really glad you reminded me. Lev has, uh, you, he's got a couple businesses. He's got garage floor masters we're gonna talk about a lot, and also a power washing business out of Knoxville, Tennessee with a partner. And you've been at it for a good while. Everybody, welcome. Lev. Lev, thank you for being here. How are you this afternoon? Hey Syd. Thank you so much. I am honored to be on your podcast. Thank you for inviting me. I'm doing good. Appreciate. Yeah. Everything you said is correct. We met first time, 2020 of, uh, February in Phoenix, Arizona. It was, it was a beautiful, beautiful time, beautiful day. I met a lot of good people, including you. Yeah. Thank you. And that was, it was a ton of fun, um, in a good event. But here, here's what I would like to ask you is like, at that time, put yourself back six years ago where at that conference you have. I don't know how long you'd been in business at the time, but Right. Then you had the power wash business and that was all correct. Yes. Kind of describe it to me, like where were you in business six years ago? What were your, your biggest challenges? How big was your business? Um, what things were you working on? Just kind of paint a picture for everybody. Yes. Um, I actually, me and my partner Eugene, we just started, uh, year prior. 2019 officially we opened in September of 2019. When we start our pressure washing business, we had zero knowledge. Um, I didn't even know that that kind of service exists at this kind of business. So we started doing, you know, old school, grabbing the wand and blasting the all that PSI on a siding and, um. After the first job, which was awful, right? I, I, I start thinking like, this is not correct. Like, how will people make money if we spend two of us with ladder and one pressure washer? It took us like, I don't know, uh, three hours to do one side of the house and how people make that money, you know? And client was asking very cheap, like $150 or something. So then we start. From get go. That was a good experience. It's actually turning point for me. I would say that, uh, I realized that running business is not just, you know, physically running around, um, doing things with your hands. It's about gaining knowledge and, um, you know, becoming better and improve yourself. So that's why same year, 2019, we decided to go to, um, there was another training. At Nashville. Uh, pressure washing training was absolutely free, but back then we could not afford anything else. Mm-hmm. And it was amazing and we were amazed how, uh, what people were talking, uh, about pressure washing and, uh, you know, they make so much money. Back then, it was like a lot of money for us. First time we met, uh, Rob Anderson, he was a speaker there and, uh, also Pat Clark was there. So, and that's where we. You know, took a journey of learning, um, not working on business, but, uh, not working in the business, but working on it. So, and, uh, soon as I learned there's other places that you can go out and, uh, learned from experienced guys. Um, I, you know, jumped on it, and that's where I first time I met you in February, that following year in, uh, Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah. So when, when, uh, you and your partner Eugene first started, what was your, what was your biggest goal? Like when you just, you, you guys spent, you know, three hours on one side of the house. What was your biggest goal at that time? So at that time, it was no goal. Uh, we would just, okay, let's try, let's start. Uh, that was the, the whole, the, the biggest goal was to start it and then, uh, when. We went to Nashville training when people were talking that, oh, they do a million in revenue per year. And that's where our, you know, reality shattered basically saying, oh, by doing pressure washing you can do that much so, and um, that's was our first financial goal is, uh, million dollars in revenue. Yeah. Okay, good. And you answered my next question was like, after you met Rob and, and Pat Clark and listened to, you know, met somebody who is further just, they're not smarter, they're just further down the road and you go, oh, here's an opportunity that you didn't see. So at that point then you started you getting hungry and looking for more education to, to shorten your learning curve, right? Yeah. Then, um, did, did you guys get to that seven figure mark in that business? I know you, you added another business and shifted a few years down the road. Yes. Uh, not in pressure washing, but because as soon as we, you know, start growing learning, we start adding new services and, and the same year we just added, uh, Christmas slides. Okay. And, um. Because the winter time here for us in Knoxville is not the best for pressure washing. So that's why we, you know, instead of staying at home, you know, for Christmas season, we're like, okay, we need to do something else and, uh, let's figure out what we can do. And then we learn about Christmas lights and that's when we took another training, went to Atlanta, and, um, with, uh. Well, I forgot the name of the Chris Christmas industry training. Um, but anyways, we've got that training from them and that was another eye-opening that for that short period of time, people make as much as. People do throughout the year, right? Yeah. And, and we're like, okay, that's different numbers. There's different interesting goals. And that's how we jumped on it. And we slowly combining multiple services basically. Yeah. We, we hit our, our, our goal That's, yeah, to answer that question, but not in necessarily just brush washing industry here. Sure. And then when did you start the garage floor coating business? The epoxy polys. Bardic. You have garage floor masters? Yeah. Our garage floor masters business. We started in, uh, 2022. No, actually we started 2021, but we had very rough start. I will, I'll tell you about that. Uh, so I, I wanna, I remember the story. I want to hear it again. Yes. We'll make a big point here. Yeah, uh, there's a lot of good learning points in that story, but anyways, soon as uh, we started, we decided to do, uh, our new journey, uh, in garage floor coding business. Uh, we opened up company garage floor, masters, and first thing we did a thing that was a not very smart move. Um, we bought a lot of equipment. From the get go. So we bought equipment, grinder, tra uh, trailer. We've got all the vacuums and all the necessary tools and, and as soon as we bought it, all our trailer was stolen with all the equipment in it. So we were like negative 30,000 right away from the, from the get go. Yeah. And because of that we had to pause it, this business for a year. We did few jobs because we already sold them. Uh, we had to deal with the rental equipment, which is actually a smart thing to do, uh, in the beginning because the equipment's pretty expensive. Yeah. And especially now in the then year after we went full blast, you know, we bought more equipment. We already had more sales on, on our books, so. That was a rough start, but, um, a lot of things, uh, you learn on the way. Yeah. So a lot of people with a setback like that, it's like, we haven't made any money yet. We haven't done a job. We've invested heavily 30, 40 grand and then. It stolen. People would just go, forget it. I'm gonna get a job at Costco. I quit. Yeah. What, I mean, you said you waited a year, but what were, how was it that you and your partner were so determined? You go like, I, we are not gonna quit this thing? I don't think there is, uh, one answer to it. And overall, I think it all comes to, um. Entrepreneurship and the path that you choose. I, the p uh, people who've been in business, uh, as an entrepreneurs for, uh, many years, they'll, they'll probably tell you the same thing, that if tomorrow I'll lose everything, uh, you know, it's not gonna take me long to come back to where I am right now because it just, you, you learn a lot. So I'm, I'm very grateful. Uh, to be, uh, on this journey, not just for the sake of money, but there's so much knowledge you gain as a human as well, you know, as a human being, how to be in society, you know, how be, um, focused and persuasive and all other good stuff. And, um, I guess that's the, that's the reason why we just, you know, continued because we already took that journey and there's no way back, you know? Yeah, you can always, you, you can always work for someone. There's a plenty of jobs. True. And even when people said there is no jobs, you know, that's a lie. It's, there's no jobs that you want to do. But there is a lot of jobs. Let me ask you this as a sidebar, like Yeah, because I, I've heard it often and, uh, without dipping into like the age of AI and robots, but like the world we live in now, in the past few years, people are like, there's no jobs. There's no work. I can't drive from our warehouse to my house without seeing opportunity. Yeah. I'm like that building needs to be painted. The hospital here needs to be painted so bad, like, oh, for sure. They have to get it done. Who's gonna do it? I mean. Things in people's yards. A broken mailbox. They're somebody, one of our neighbors, we had a big windstorm two months ago. Bunch of trees got blown over, uh, the big, um, pine trees here. They don't come uprooted. They break like halfway up and then you've got a big chunk. I'm like, I see these lying around in people's yards. I'm like, there's an opportunity. Rent a chainsaw, knock on a door or do it the other way. Sell it, then get the equipment and, uh. Just make it happen. So do you see the world that way now, like eyes of opportunity? Absolutely. Yes. Uh, I think my partners don't like me very much for that because I, I'm a dreamer in a, in a lot of ways and always something new comes to me and like. Throwing those ideas and they were like just rolling their eyes saying like, okay, here we go again. New business reopening. Yeah. So, no. Yes, I, I definitely do see opportunity everywhere. And with that, when, when you mentioned about ai, new technology, uh, this is, I look at it as a, um. Having, uh, additional challenge for you so you can adjust to it. It's like, um, when you have in your market a competition, right? You only become better when you have a competition, when you compete against someone. And if you only want in a market, there's no new waste for you. Everything's smooth. Everyone know. Know about you. There's no one else. Uh, but when the competition comes in, you start thinking about new ideas, new approaches, so you become better. Mm-hmm. So good, healthy, you know, um, competition's always good and that's what I look at. AI and new technology. Okay, there's a new thing comes out, what are you gonna do? You're gonna complain about it or you're gonna try to adjust and be part of it or benefit out of it, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what are some of the ways that, and I'm stepping ahead, but what are some of the areas that you guys have started to implement and utilize AI or ways that you want to use AI in your, is it yours? Like yours is a hands on physical business. Yeah. You sell a job, you've gotta get in there, grind a floor, put down the coating. Somebody's gotta get their hands really dirty, but there's a lot of room for ai. So how do you use it now? Um, um, honestly, we using on a minimal level, but, uh, it does help a lot because even though this is, you know, it's called blue, blue color type of business that, uh, you, you know, go do hands-on type of stuff, um, the business still business, you know, you still have to build your systems. You still have to, uh, uh, create a smooth work environment and, um. To improve yourself again in your company. So that's where the help of AI comes in, you know, um, checklists and, and, uh, protocols and stuff like that. It just, you don't, you don't rely on it completely. You just use your knowledge to, um, to help with putting it together basically. Yeah. So, um, basic stuff we use, you know, chat, GPT and, uh, Claude. Um. Uh, some other gener, uh, picture generating stuff that, you know, helps, um, with booklets and, and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. So we use, um, I use a. I just, I fondly call it the ten eighty ten process. Okay. Like that, where I use an LLM to, if I've got an idea or a task or project that needs to be done, I'll spend 10% of the energy, or like the first 10% is me defining it and defining a prompt, and really getting it as crystal clear as I can. Then the next 80% is ai, like putting out a, you know, a result Then. The last 10% is I review it, maybe reprompt it, or just, you know, take it all and then edit it, you know, re rewrite, make sure it's accurate. But it enabled me to, you know, to get projects complete that I've had for years. Like a lot of it's SOPs Yeah. Or checklists that I just, I get bogged down in the details. I'm, I'm a visionary guy like you. I don't like to do all the details. I'm like, make this happen. Yeah. But somebody has to make it happen now. It's my buddy Chad. Chad. Yes, that's true. Uh, it's, it's actually a lot of helpful Yeah. Uh, helpful stuff, man. I know a lot of people against all AI things, you know, but you take best out of it. That's, that's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Alright, so let's, I'm gonna go way back in time, then we're gonna come back to the present. So, back in. So you immigrated from Russia and the Village was the name of the town you're from? Uh, Yosh, Ola City, Yosh, Ola. But my parents, they're from Village. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's a very small town, uh, Republic and Small Town city. Uh, Yosh, Ola, size of Knoxville. Uh, a population probably, um, 300. Thousand. No more than that. Maybe more right now, but it's very small town. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, when you first told me that, I was like, I'm gonna look this, I looked on, on Google Maps to find, 'cause I, I was like, that's gotta be central Russia somewhere. And it's like, is it 600, 800 miles east of Moscow? It's a ways, it's 600, 600 miles from Moscow. Yeah. East. Yeah. But it's still Western Russia. It's not even in the center. Exactly. That's what I was reminded. Russia is like, is it 2200 miles east to west or something? God, it's a giant country. It is, yes. Uh, well, if you look at the whole map, yes, we are, um, very close to two big cities, the capital, um, but it's still 600 miles away, you know, from my, from the capital. Yeah. So, um, one of the first times we had a real conversation, we were having a cigar at the standard in Nashville, Tennessee, and we're talking about when you came here and, and you made a statement that it didn't surprise me, but it wasn't something that I think about because race here in the States, you know, capitalism is part of the whole drill. And you mentioned that you're the only crazy person in your family. You didn't say it like this, but that you. Believed in you. You like, you were optimistic and wanted to be an entrepreneur, and literally there was no one in your family, your background or even that you knew from your, your home, uh, city that thought that way. They were like, basically if you put it here in America, they would go get a job at the post office. Just get a good job and, and don't be crazy, and you responded. That's the same, same thing, yes. Uh, well, I would not say the whole city like this, but, uh, my surrounding for sure, the family, uh, my family, they, they, there's no entrepreneurs in my family. I would say I'm a first one. And, um, that's very standard mentality, especially from post-Soviet, uh, union countries where you study well, um. Be a good person and get a job, create a family, you know, die happily. So, uh, the, that because they relied on the government, you know, the system was built that way. And, um, when. I was born in Russia, I was not born in Soviet Union. And there's a lot of gates were open of, you know, opportunities and, uh, mentality still stayed the same for the previous generation, but the new generation of, um, us, me, uh, we had opportunity to take. So, um, I guess it's the fact that I had this, you know, dreamer mentality that helped me to actually. Uh, you know, be different, break out. And I'm the only one from my, uh, graduation year who moved to Moscow, the biggest city by myself. Mm-hmm. Um, to study. I went to university, I graduated and then, uh, I saw the opportunity to, um, chase American Dream, and that's how I came here. Yeah. Yeah. And did, um, hold on. I have to make a change. Look at that. My screen froze. Okay. I'm back. Um, coming to the United States and you ended up in Tennessee, in eastern Tennessee, in Knoxville, in that area, as being a, a Russian immigrant, what were the advantages? What were the disadvantages in, you know, sort of the, the American South starting a business? Advantages, I would say that I had something to compare to. Um, when you live, you, when you are in the same pond, you grew up and all you know is your surrounding your reality. But when you coming from different reality and you see, um, what opportunities you didn't have back there. And, and you do have it in here, you just, uh, see the world differently. Uh, you, you just start starting asking questions, why people don't take that opportunity, why people don't do this. And I think that is the advantage. So I, that I could compare. Disadvantage is obviously knowing the language and um, adjusting to culture. Well, communication side of it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like from, like from a sales or business perspective, it helped you to stand out in the marketplace? I mean, it'd be easy for a customer to go, you know, that Russian guy rather than just maybe Yeah, maybe, yeah. In some places, yeah. Because people were, um, interested in the people in South, uh, where, where I'm at in Knoxville, Tennessee, um, very. Uh, they, they're very interested in other people. So, and, um, that gave them opportunity, um, to learn something from about Russia too through, through me. And, uh, so that was one of the points. Maybe the, they helped me to win the job as a salesperson. Yeah. Yeah. All right, we'll come back to present day. This, um, so garage floor masters, you guys, you have, you operate in two locations, right? Yes. Okay. So what are I want to ask you about, what were some of the, in your, your growth in your journey from zero to solid seven figures, multiple, uh, services. Like what were some of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome to as you grew your business? Um, it's, uh, it's learning the importance of, uh, delivering the service that, uh. You, you don't just do a good job. So, because that should be your core thing that you do. If you do something, you do it good, right? Otherwise don't do it at all. But the challenge was to what other values that we can deliver to our clients, what is the matter to them? Um, so they will choose us or, or someone else. And that part, it was challenging to learn. And, um, systemize it. Yeah. Did you, like, was it a challenge to learn or understand that maybe you are not, your customers like to see it through the customer's eyes that Yes. Rather than through your own eyes? That's true. And, um, I tell my guys all the time, uh, you know, even, even I am not my own customer, the, the services that we offer, I cannot afford myself so. Yeah. And, and that's why it was also, you know, a challenge for us to shift that mindset about, oh, in the beginning you're trying to give an answer for your customer, saying like, oh, he probably doesn't need that. Oh, he pro it is gonna be, probably gonna be too expensive for him. But when you shift from that mindset where you, like, like you mentioned, you're not your own customer, then it's clear. Yes. What was, uh, it's gotta be challenging to operate two locations. What's, what's one of the key factors or challenges that you had to overcome to operate in two places? It's, uh, people, we're still in the home service industry. Well, in the service industry, in the trade business, uh, all, everything comes down to people. So you do have to have good, um, relationships and, uh, good approach. To make sure, take care of your people, uh, your employees, your management, uh, make sure they in, they have all the tools that they need in order to deliver that service. And you are always there to support. So our biggest thing is, was to, and still is to learn it. How to be better in, uh, supporting. Yeah. Have you, um. Red or do you guys use the concepts from the book? Um, dream Manager, are you familiar with that? Uh, no. I didn't get to that book yet. Okay. I did not. It's funny, someone gave me a copy. It sat on my bookcase for two years. I never opened it. I was like, oh, that sounds like gr great book. It's this, it's tiny. I mean it's thin. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, one day I was on a flight to Arizona. I'm like, I'm gonna take that book. I bet I can read it on one flight. I did. And it, I was like, oh my God, if I had read this two years ago, and it was, but it, it, in summary, it was what you were saying, it's like, how can I support my employees? How can I do more for them and take care of them? Because if you take care of them, they'll want to perform better, but also they stay longer and it builds, you know, a depth of culture. Um. And you know, in a lot of home service businesses, like we are in window cleaning, you've been in power washing and still are. And it's like, I worked so hard for so long with the idea that I was gonna find the right employees that would stay with me forever or 10 years, you know? And the dream manager, the company that they're using it as example is janitorial. And they said, if you can get people to stay on average three years, you can build a company. And I was like, oh. I, I was trying for, you know, to knock every ball over the fence instead of just hitting a single. Mm-hmm. And that shift in perspective end up now we have, we have retention that we've never experienced, but for four years we haven't lost a, an employee. That's, that's amazing. Uh, what I wanted to say that, um, from the beginning we, um. I placed our three focuses in a certain order, and I always tell, always tell my employees about it. So the first. Uh, it's our employees. It's you guys that we wanna make sure you're happy, you know, you have all the necessary tools to do the job that we do. Second is our customers, you know, because that's who gives us money and, um, we wanna make sure they happy as well. And the third place is money because if we reach the first two steps properly, uh, then money will come. Yeah, so, and that's why, you know, the first place our employees, because customers come and go. Uh, you know, but you keep your employees in the house close to you. So that's why they are focused, number one, for sure. So, um, I don't know if you spent, like, I think most people spend too much time on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. I, myself included, but I see a lot of young guys, excuse me. See a lot of young, young men particularly that have started a power wash business or they started a window cleaning business and they're talking about door knocking, or they're like, I've gotta, you know, earn my first $5,000, and they're just young and hustling. And trying to make it happen, but really don't have any experience. But they're video documenting the whole thing and broadcasting it, which is kinda interesting. What would your advice be to, you got a couple young guys, two guys, they're in college and they're like, dude, are we gonna work at Jimmy John's again this summer? And the one's like, I saw this video about starting power washing business. Let's do that. What's your advice for the young guys that start up that actually say, this is a viable, like this could be a business. What are you gonna tell 'em? 'cause now you're the wise man. You've got the experience wise, man, it's a big stretch, but have some experience for sure. But, but biggest thing, well, I just wanted to say that I, yes I do, um, watch some social media videos, shorts, um, and I see those guys as well and actually makes me. You know, exciting and, and happy because I, I still remember that drive because when you grow, you get to the point where you don't have that, uh, excitement. I would say that to, you know, selling the job the first job, or, you know, finishing it to, to pleasing, uh, level of your customer, right. And, um. And it's so exciting to watch when they're like so happy that, oh, I did 5,000, I did 10,000. It's great. And, um, well, the, I guess the. What I would say that clo uh, look close to your finances. That's the number one. Whatever you sell, this is not go, it does not go to your pocket. There's Uncle Sam. There is, uh, other expenses that you have that you wanna make sure you lay them out properly. That's the number one rule I would say your finances. Which I, I still, we still struggle with that because, you know, it's not easy thing to do. Um, second I, and the biggest thing I would say, don't give up. That's the, that's what I would say. Because like you mentioned earlier, you know, uh, when we, we, we, when we had our rough start with our pressure, uh, our garage floor coating business, um, we could have just said, okay, that's it. It's not gonna work out. Um, but if you have that drive, keep it lit and, um, keep grinding, keep going because it doesn't matter who's on top right now. Um, person who wins, it's the last man, the last person standing that who wins. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, and you, you touched on this as you, um, as you grow and you become more successful, it's easy to get comfortable. Yeah, not, not have that fire anymore. What do you do to stay excited about your business? Oh, I, I don't need anything because like I, I said earlier, I have a lot of ideas that come in my head where throughout the journey, we, we made so many changes and I, I taught myself like, if nothing changes, so that. Uh, that means we are losing. So we always have to, we also, we always have to do something in some improvement in all the levels. You know, there's, you always look over the systems that you have, you try to improve them. Um, if everything works, that means something's not working. That's interesting. Yeah. You need to look a little deeper. What are some of the, um. Let, let me ask you for some practical tools or strategies that you use in business that's helped you succeed, that you can share with other people. Start with, with marketing. What are some of the tools or strategies you guys use to market and sell your services that have been effective or like have a really good ROI? Well, marketing's, um. It's very complicated subject. I would say I'm not an expert in marketing. I did not study for it. Just disclaimer, you know, uh, what I, what I'm saying is just my personal experience and thoughts. Don't take it as a, as a rule, but, um, what I think it's, it's very deep, uh, strategies that you have to have for each business that you have. If so, first of all, you have to look at what kind of business you have. What kind of services you offer, and this is how you're gonna determine who would be your ideal customer. Mm-hmm. Uh, then you're gonna search for that ideal customer. So the person who will willingly give you money for the service that you offer, and you build your marketing around that avatar. And, um, depending on the business in service, there's different. In my opinion, different approaches to marketing. So I'll give you an example with pressure washing for, uh, it's very low, small ticket type of service, right? Usually around 500 to a thousand dollars, uh, average ticket. Yeah. Uh, depending where you are, of course. And, uh, so we have to see who is your avatar. The people who can afford that. And for that price, uh, you are obviously gonna look for people who own the house. They don't rent it. Yeah. And then you're gonna look on the income, and income is in this type level of business. It doesn't have to be big because ticket is not, is is large. So, and, uh. In the, on the marketing side, like on social media for example, that's probably good approach in a, a get go. So we use the social media like Facebook, Instagram, where people can see and visualize act of, uh, service that you offer. You know, they see before and after dirty house, clean house, and, um. That is pleasing for them and they also know why you're doing it. They know the reason why it needs to be done. So, uh, that would be your probably ideal customer over there. But, uh, the biggest thing about marketing there, there is no, um, one technique or structure of marketing exists. So the marketing works when you try all of it. If you do only one thing, uh, it doesn't mean, uh, it's gonna, you're gonna be the, uh, it doesn't mean it's gonna take your business to the next level. Marketing works only when you use multiple touches. Yeah. But some of them, some directions, you know, some streams are way better than others, depending on the business. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We, how do you track your. Your marketing, do you use a, a tool for that, whether it's responsib bit or something else? Uh, we used to work with Responsib bit for our pressure washing business, but now, right now we, we work with agency. Okay. Okay. And currently what marketing channel has the, has the best ROI for your, for garage floor Masters? For garage floor Masters right now, or Google. Google works the best. Google. PPC. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Um, we have a team meeting for our company every Monday and Wednesday. Monday is all review last week. What are your wins? Let's look ahead for this week, how are we gonna succeed? And then Wednesday is a little more granular and we'll, we'll, uh, we'll do role play practice, so like how to ask for upsell, things like that. And we, uh, put um. Responsible bid the pie chart on the big screen and just showed 'em, like for our residential customers over the last 30 days, this is where they came from. It was Google search, existing customers, referrals, that, that, that all the way around and was surprised to see that dollar for dollar our best. It wasn't our biggest performing, um, channel, but our best performing channel as far as cost to acquire and ticket size. Was lawn signs. Mm-hmm. Everything we do with people that see a lawn sign, spend more money and have a higher closing rate than almost anything we do. Anything but a referral. It's the only one that was better. Yeah. And I was, I was like, well, I can't believe that. I just, I I was gonna stop putting out lawn signs. 'cause they're a headache. Yes. They're a, they're a valuable headache. I was like, hell yeah. We're gonna double down on this. Yeah. Uh, what, uh, we found that multiple touch marketing, uh, always works the best when you don't just focus on one thing. Again, like I said, uh, you, you do online, Google. Social media, that's what everyone do. There's a lot of agencies to, to work with. Mm-hmm. Um, but it does not mean if you pay someone, that means you can sit back and relax and wait for all those leads coming in. So at the same time, you do other stuff like loan signs or yard signs, uh, you do flyers. Um, you, you ask for a referral. You have to have a referral system because that's. The cheapest and, uh, op cheapest marketing. Yeah. When you did a good job, they can offer, uh, they can recommend you to their friend or family. Um, and you don't pay for it, you know? You already did. And this client basically pays for your future customer marketing. Yeah. Yeah. What's, can you describe your, uh, referral marketing program? Like, do you have a system for it? For, yes. Um, we do offer dollar amount for every client that we book from this person. Yeah. So it's pretty simple. Um, but it's effective. It works. People, people like it. And, um. And we also, uh, have some neighborhood, um, packages, you know, when multiple people do at the same time. Uh, but in the referral side, it's, it's pretty simple as dollar amount straightforward. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you, um, only ask for referral after the work is done or before? I mean, do you have that multiple ask stages and things like that set up? Uh, we have, yeah, we ask probably about. Six, five or six time. Yeah. Um, we do you, do you want me tell you all the steps that we take? Yeah. I think it'd be helpful for, for a lot of people listening. Yep. So referral and review. This is, uh, one package that what we ask of our customers, because reviews, it's part of the marketing as well, that helps your, um, Google positioning go up. That Google sees your company very active, uh, when you have, when you actively collect those reviews. And, uh, it's very interesting that I found out about it, that, uh, if you put like, uh. A hundred review, you, you work hard and you did like a hundred reviews. Mm-hmm. And then you, you think, okay, that's it. Let's, let's stop. Um, but the truth is that you'll constantly have to get those reviews. So the Google sees that your account is active. Active, and, uh. The people interested in it. So that's why, uh, Google will start, continue pushing you up. So, um, but what you see sometimes when there's big companies that they gain their a thousand reviews and they don't worry about it no more because they're the biggest, they're the, you know, best on the market. That's what, uh, how they present themselves and yes. That part also helps, but constant, uh, gaining those reviews is very important for your positioning. And, um, and it's not me talking as a experts. Uh, so coming back to referral and review package, um, when customer calls, when we book the job, we. Tell them that what is our goal? Our goal is to perform well. So they will be so happy that they can easily recommend us to their friends, families, or uh, coworkers. Yeah. So that is already the first mentioning that gets in their brain and, um. Helps them to actually do something about later on. Uh, the second time when our, um, technicians come out to a job site before they actually start work, they talk about referral and review, um, as well. Same script, nothing, nothing complicated. They would say, well, today my job is to perform my best, so you'll be so happy that you can recommend this to someone else. And leave as a five star review and, um, at the end they do ask it again. So it's when they happy they saw the result, that's the best time. It's a hot client of yours who's ready to do anything to make you happy. Yeah, because they're so happy. And, uh, you ask for a referral review. And we do have, uh, multiple systems for that. Either automatically sends the link after the job is completed through our CRM system or, um. We also have, uh, hands on flyers with the QR code where they can scan right away in front of you. Okay? Uh, there is a aggressive approaches that we have, uh, when we make them do it in front of you. Uh, okay. This is not for everyone, and I'm not saying that's the what you have to do, but that's when you. Can read people and how they act with you, that's when you can be that way as well. So it's, it's, um, you know, mirroring, uh, psych psychological approach as well. So, and yeah, that's why we have the, uh, little cards with QR code on it so they can scan it and give you your review right away. Yeah. And, uh. After we finished, and if you still didn't get the review or referral, we have same using the, uh, follow-up system where, um, either through your CRM or there's other software that you can use, that they will send message, text message, or an email asking for referral and review. Uh, three more times. Throughout the life, customer life. So, and that's what helps us to gain reviews. Plus we give some bonuses, cash bonuses for our technicians for getting five star review. Yeah, them do, doing good job. And um, so that motivates them as well. And for clients. We also obviously mentioned that if one of your friends will, uh, book a job with us, um, then. You'll get the cash bonus as well. Yeah, no, that's good. It's good to, I mean, you've, you've got to have anything that you want to succeed. You can't just rely on luck and what you just described as a system that when you do it, when your team does it, when your techs do it results in longevity more, work better for the business, better for your technician, better for more customers. I, I really love that. So while we wrap up, um. You've already given some really great advice. Number one was know your finances because that no matter how good of a salesperson or technician or anything else you are, if you don't do your money right, you, it's hard to succeed. And you talked about how. Focus you are on taking care of your employees so that they're happy. Um, what's another piece of advice? What's the advice you would give young love starting out? Because now you know how it can turn out and like to, I dunno, what's, what's the advice you'd give to your younger self or to the, the younger guys? They've got a couple of employees. Maybe they're, you know, you know that zone where it just, it feels like you should be succeeding. You hired people, but it only feels like there's more work. Um, put, uh, give yourself, um, higher goals, I would say. So you have to have that aim to, you know, to become better and stronger. Uh, because the building business, a lot of times, uh, people see it just, uh, um. It's, uh, people see it about money, right? I mean, we all do it for money at the end, for sure. But you wanna make sure that you don't become slave of your business and, um, you, you build a business. So you can easily either sell it or give it in the hands of management. And it will still work for you, right? So I would say focus on the systemizing everything and don't perfect it. Just start, you know, start making it. Just use it. Whatever you have already is a system, but put it on a paper and make sure you follow it. I would say that that's it. There's a lot of advices, you know, we can talk about and different levels, but. That one. I would say the what? I see the major stuff. Yeah. Alright, good, good. And that. The last thing, I know a lot of, I've experienced it, I'm sure you have, but I want to ask. A lot of times when someone says, I'm gonna go in business for myself, they're friends or family is like, you are crazy. Just get a job. But a few years down the road when you start seeing success, they turn around and go, oh, you're so lucky. You're so lucky without seeing the blood, sweat, and tears. Have you experienced that? Um, not in a direct way like you pictured it, but every I think everyone experienced that, but, uh, a lot of times people, you know, the biggest, uh, nonbelievers, it's your close people that your family. Right. You probably heard that too. That Yeah. And they don't do it because of out of hate. They do it because, uh, they worry about you that you're gonna fail. You know, like a parent doesn't want your child to fail. And, uh, that's why they say just, just don't do it. You know, it's gonna be a lot of headache. Yeah. Yeah. We did experience that. Yes. Okay. They go play it safe, play it safe. It's hard to, um, when I talk to our people here, I go, you cannot coast up a mountain. If you want to get to the peak, it's gonna be hard. That's true. You gotta work for it. I like, and it takes a little crazy, but Oh, a lot. Yeah. So. Well, I tell you what I am, I am grateful to have you as my crazy Russian friend. Um. I'm really glad that we've had a chance to share the journey as well and be a part of, now we're a part of the same mastermind. It's a lot of fun and it's, it's a privilege to be your friend and watch you grow. Thank you for spending some time with us. Love. Thank you. Same goes to you. I'm thankful for people around me and I'm so grateful to that. I found you guys. That's, uh. I just wanna say the Mastermind and went through multiple names, but, uh, the idea stays the same, and it's very, very important to have, uh, people like that who can support you, who been through same stuff that you have, maybe even more, well, probably more. And they, they don't think that you're crazy, right? They think that you're not crazy enough. And that's great. That's right. Yeah. That that really is one of the hidden benefits is a community that understands you, that you can grow with. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you guys. Thank yous. Yeah, you as well. Alright. Until next time. I believe we'll actually see each other about 32 days from today in Nashville, Tennessee. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Lev. You too. Till next. Cigar and whiskey. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for this. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners. And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Daniel Dixon, CEO of SendJim, for a high-level but highly practical conversation about modern marketing, targeting, and the real drivers of growth in home service businesses.
 
What makes this episode stand out is how it reframes marketing from “getting more leads” to building a system that consistently generates the right leads—and converts them. Daniel breaks down the concept of being a “big fish in a small pond,” explaining why most companies waste money by marketing too broadly instead of dialing in on their ideal customer avatar. He introduces predictive targeting as a game-changing approach that uses data to identify the small percentage of homeowners most likely to buy, dramatically increasing efficiency and ROI.
 
Beyond lead generation, the conversation dives into the full lifecycle of a job: generating leads, converting them, and delivering the service. Daniel and Sheila explore the often-overlooked tension between sales/marketing and operations, and why growth requires both sides to stay balanced. They also emphasize that the most overlooked opportunity for growth is a company’s existing customer list—where trust is already built and conversion is significantly easier.
 
This episode is especially valuable for newer business owners because it simplifies what can feel overwhelming. Instead of chasing every marketing trend, the focus is on fundamentals: know your market, stay in front of your customers consistently, use multiple channels, and build systems that follow up long after your sales team stops. It’s a strategic, no-BS conversation that helps business owners think smarter about how they spend their marketing dollars and how they scale sustainably.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
SendJim (marketing automation platform)
Automate Motivate (employee engagement / gamification platform)
Daniel Dixon — CEO of SendJim
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
 
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship.
 
Let's dive in.
 
Hello listeners. I'm your host, Sheila Smeltzer and contributor to the Huge Transformations podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I have a kick butt interview with Daniel Dixon. Daniel is the CEO of Send. Jim, if you don't know what Send Jim is, send, Jim is a. Marketing product that can absolutely help you be a big fish in a small pond.
 
This is targeting market targeted marketing folks, and Daniel and I, you know, Daniel's got a huge passion for small business. He came out of the corporate world. Uh, we don't even really talk a lot about that, but he came out of the corporate world and his passion is helping small businesses grow. Um, he actually grew up in a family.
 
His mom and dad owned a carpet cleaning company, so you see why he's passionate about home services and small business. But, um, we are gonna talk a lot about marketing today and this stuff is gold. You guys, I learned so much. That I am so excited to share this information with you. Um, we talk about how to really dial into your target market and how to market and spend your marketing dollars to that target of who is your ideal customer avatar.
 
Um, we talk about how to convert. We talk about the lead gen. The conversion. And then we even talk about, yeah, now we have to go deliver the service. And that natural tension between sales and marketing and operations. Um, there's so much that we cover today in just 40, 43 minutes. Um, you are gonna wanna listen to this.
 
So thank you so much for joining us. My wish today is that you'll be an active listener because we are excited each and every interview to help you grow. Enjoy the show. Hello. Hello everyone. This is Sheila Smeltzer, huge, huge podcast contributor, and today we are here with Daniel Dixon. Hey Daniel. Hey, thanks for having me 100%.
 
I am very excited. We were chatting a little bit and I know that we've known each other in the home service space and through the huge convention and other for a long time, but I've never really gotten to know you. And I love a platform on a podcast that we can get to know each other and share some good insights with our listeners today.
 
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to, uh, to dive in also. So, Daniel, tell the audience, just everybody who's listening, let 'em know who you are. Yeah. So Daniel Dixon, I'm currently, uh, I would say an entrepreneur. I, uh, I'm currently the CEO at Syn j. Um, and I own and operate a, uh, garage floor coating company.
 
I live in Nashville, Tennessee. I've got, uh, a beautiful wife and two children that are in elementary and middle school. And, uh, life couldn't be any better. It's, it's, uh, I'm super lucky. I love that you're grateful. I can tell. I am very grateful. I love it. Um, so I, I definitely wanna talk about Send Jim, 'cause uh, I know that this is a fantastic, uh, marketing product and um, definitely can help small businesses of all kinds.
 
And so I'd like to talk about that. Um, I really do wanna, I'm hoping that we can dive into some sales and marketing chat in general. Mm-hmm. Um. Because I know that I think some, a lot of companies are either really good at sales and marketing and other companies are just really good at operations. Um, it's very difficult to be good at both, I think.
 
Um, and one thing that I've really been thinking about, um, leading into and thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about today on the podcast is. One thing that I've noticed in my years in business is, you know, we have all of our different roles in the company from admin, sales and marketing operations, right?
 
Yes. And so there's that sales and operat, sales, marketing, and operations. There's just always this constant tension that's. It's supposed to be healthy, right? We want a healthy, like the ideal is that we have this healthy tension between the both. Meaning if sales and marketing is crushing it, then we need operations to meet that demand, right?
 
Yes, we've got all the leads coming in. Leads coming in, great. We gotta go out and we have to fulfill the services that that, that the leads. Need. Right, right. And then vice versa, operations. We can build up operations and have all the trucks, and have all the people and the equipment and all the stuff. But if we sales is lagging, then you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose those employees.
 
'cause they're like, I can't make any money here. Right. Yes. So I'd really like to talk about that today, but tell me, just to get started, I wanna know more about what you do in the marketing space with Send Gym and Automate Motivate. Yeah. So, uh, syn Gem is a marketing automation platform. Um, what we do, we've kind of flipped, uh, old school marketing on its head, and, uh, we've got very, we've brought like technology to old school marketing.
 
What I mean by that are things like. Making sure we convert every single lead, um, and making sure the neighbors of our customers know about us, uh, as a home service company and marketing to those people. Um, and making sure that, uh, we understand who in the market is buying home services and. An only market to those people.
 
So a lot of that we do through postcards, um, handwritten cards, um, we do some text messaging, but it's a lot of physical goods. Mm-hmm. And instead of like the, the old school spray and pray method, where it's like the more cards you get out, the better, let's try to get out a hundred thousand postcards. Um, we've said, Hey, what if we could only send a thousand postcards, but they're 10 times more effective.
 
Right. So how do we reduce the cost, uh, of your marketing? Um, and get the same or better, uh, result or revenue generated from that. So that's the product. Go ahead. So this is, is this what we call predictive targeting? Predictive targeting. I'm surprised you heard about that. So when the podcast goes live, it'll probably be out in the universe.
 
Um, but right now we have a beta group called Predictive Targeting. Um, I'd love to get into that. If I could explain a little bit about that. I would love to talk to you about that. Um, but I don't want to take up all your show. No, I'm, I'm very interested, um, because I really wanna, I really wanna stay on this topic, so I, I've always been a, a very.
 
Big support like I have found. So I think it depends. I think first of all, we're all in different markets, right? Yes. And for example, my market is lots and lots and lots of retirees. Mm-hmm. Homes valued 600,000 and above. So as we learn at the huge and in the Mastermind, we wanna be big fish in a small pond, right?
 
Yes. We wanna really target into the that target market. Who is it that we really generate our highest ticket from? Yes. And we want to, we want to find them. So if I send out a postcard to thousands and thousands of houses, we know that if we go into, um, you know, if we go to the post office and do postal routes, we're gonna send a lot of postcards that are going to houses that are not in our target.
 
That's not our target. Yes. Correct. Yeah. So I'm assuming predictive marketing is somehow allowing us to find that very small percentage. Of, of people and being able to only market directly to them and not all of the wasteful stuff, because the wasteful postcards are what have given postcards a bad name.
 
Yes. But I also know, just to finish what I'm gonna say here is that like my client, my client demographic of predominantly retirees and that 600,000 and above, they love a handwritten card. Mm-hmm. This, this is meaningful to them. Yes. So we get a referral from them. We send them a handwritten card. Thank you so much for your referral.
 
We're not giving 'em money off, we're not giving 'em anything. The value of just saying sending, sending someone you care about to someone you trust means the world to us. Thank you so much. So tell me how you're doing this with marketing and automation. Yeah. So, um, everything you said, right mail is becoming way more effective than it ever has.
 
So mail used to be super effective way up here. Gotta find my camera way up here. Right? And then as email and digital ads came out, like mail started going like this. Mm-hmm. And like now as AI's coming out and we're inundated with digital ads and everything's digital, like mail's starting to go back like this because you can stand out in the, in the mailbox, there's not many people doing it.
 
Why? Because mail's expensive. It's really expensive if you try to mail every house, right? Mm-hmm. So we started saying like, okay, let's get smart. And we have the, the ability and the, the fortunate circumstance at Syngen to be working with thousands of home service contractors. And we asked, uh, some of our favorite contractors, Hey, would you mind us taking your.
 
Customer data and doing, uh, having our data science team, uh, analyze it and understand what about these people makes them buyers. And so what we took is, uh, you know, 50 to a hundred thousand, uh, maybe more customer records. And we said, okay. Sheila bought, uh, this service, whether it was, uh, let's call it soft washing, okay?
 
Mm-hmm. And so Sheila bought that. Now let's look at everything else we know about Sheila and we know we, we have this data to say that she drives this type of car. She doesn't have a car payment 'cause she owns it, her mortgage, uh. Is this much compared to her home value. This is her personality type. And I'm listing like four things, five things, but we look across 250 data elements to say, what does Sheila look like?
 
Wow. And we do that for every single customer that we, that we got to analyze. So let's say 250 data elements across a hundred thousand people. And then what you do is you take that and you say, okay, where can I find more? Now that I understand what every one of these people looks like, let's look for commonalities.
 
Okay. So one of the unique things we saw, which is crazy that you wouldn't ever be able to find this, uh, without doing this analysis, is that hey, people that use e-readers are way more likely to buy home services. Why? Mm-hmm. I have no idea. Right? Mm-hmm. But like before, it was, let's target everybody with this home value and everybody with, you know, that's owner occupied and that has a single family home.
 
And, you know, we can get, typically, like if you look at a market and we say a hundred percent of people are in your city that are gonna, you know, that live there and then you, if you use typical demographic filters. You can get that down to like 40%. We're gonna mail to 30 or 40% of the homes, and that used to be called targeted.
 
Uh, but what data analysis shows is that only about three to 5% of people in in a market at any given time are actually potential buyers for your service. So we're mailing to 40% using demographics, but only 3% are buyers. So we said, well, what could we do to find those 3%? And we use this to build a data model that says, Hey, I can find other people that use e-readers that drive the same type of car, that have this personality type, that have bought home services in the past that subscribe to magazines that do all these things.
 
And then I can go to your market and said, show me all the people that look like Sheila, and then we can only mail to those people. And what that says is, instead of mailing to 40% of people, you could mail to five or 6% of people. Wow. So I participated in that study that you guys did, by the way. Mm-hmm.
 
Yeah. Thank you. So, yeah, so I'm very curious, um, about that and you know, that sounds like a lot of work. Like how much time did it take you? To do that? Well, it was years of experience, right? Like people had to figure out how to do this and then, um, yeah, it was a long time in the planning and then making sure that we had the right people participating like yourself.
 
Um, that had good customer lists and understood the industry, and then it was all the data analysis, and then it was to actually build a tool around it, right? We had this really cool report and then we're like, now what do we do with it? So it was a, you know, we were thinking about this a long time ago, but it's, you know, now that it's finally here and it's, it's really incredible.
 
Love that. Okay. So, and then this is Send Jim. Yes. Syn Jim. So, so tell me about automate Motivate, because that's automate motivate, totally different part product, right? Totally different product. Um, our founder, Josh Latimer, may have heard of him. Uh, he was very big in the cleaning industry. Um, massive Ander action.
 
Yeah, he, uh, but he, he's a very smart guy and he talked to a lot of home service companies. He founded. Uh, sin Jim, and he said, Hey, what are the two biggest things people have trouble with? Which you kind of alluded to at the beginning of the podcast was, was sales and marketing. That's one. And then mm-hmm.
 
People, right? Mm-hmm. That's the second one. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And employees. And how do we manage the sales people versus the ops people and the tension there. And, and so he developed an app that, uh, gamified the workplace. Um, that said, here's the behaviors we wanna incentivize, and how can people, um, how can business owners make sure their employees get rewarded for those behaviors, like using an actual system or software?
 
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And engagement is, and is such an important thing. You can just see your employees when they walk in the door. You can tell just by the way they walk and the look on their face if they're engaged with being there for the day. Yes. And I have seen it go like this and I've seen it go like this and thank God right now we're going like this.
 
Yeah. But um, but there's so much that goes into that and, um, yeah. Okay, so very cool. Now, what, what if, if I am, I am a plus PRO Services Incorporated and we signed up with Send Jim, what would that process look like? Yeah, so the first thing would be getting on a demo, right? And understanding about your business.
 
Not every business is the same. Um, well, understanding your home service business and then getting a plan set up to say, Hey, it makes sense to follow up with every single quote even after my salesperson's done. Mm-hmm. It makes sense to market to the neighbors and my customers automatically over a six month period.
 
It makes sense to, uh, send some mailings to these people that we believe are home service buyers based on our data model. Right. We'll put together a plan for you and then you'll sign up. And, uh, then we have like a one-on-one onboarding. You'll be paired with a success manager and they, you know, if the words automation scare you or AI or like, you don't, you're not a tech person, right?
 
Like, I didn't go into home services 'cause I wanna be on the computer. Right? We'll set all that up for you. And, um, this is something that's kind of new for us. Uh, and I say this because you, again, you talked about the sales and ops, right? Like, we were really cool at building tools. If you're familiar with Syngen, you know, five years ago.
 
Three years ago, even one year ago, great at selling. We built a really good product, but like we lacked the support to get people set up and to get them truly understanding to how to implement the strategy. And, um, and so our operations is caught up to that now. And so we do a really good job. We have a dedicated onboarding team to make sure that you're gonna get the return on investment.
 
And then we're going to, we're gonna set it and in three months we're gonna come back and say, okay, let's look at. Uh, the results from these, uh, campaigns and automations in your business. So I heard you say that you have the ability to convert every lead. Did you say that? To help you convert every lead, that's the goal, right?
 
Yeah. That is the goal. So, um. I mean, there's so much into that too. Yeah. It's like when it's one thing to get the lead, it's the other part to convert it. Yes. And then it's, the third part is delivering it, right? Yes. But that conversion, how does, because like I understand getting the lead, and I understand how Send Jim can help get the lead, but how does Send Jim help convert the.
 
Yeah. So here's a, here's a perfect example. And I use syn gym in my garage floor business. So I'm just gonna use, use real world numbers, um, because I've, I, I live and breathe this stuff and I actually eat my own dog food. Like, I use syn gym. I pay for the usage, I pay for the subscription. Um, so cool. And so like every single quote that we go on that's over $2,000, we send them a handwritten card, immediate, right?
 
Like we're connected to jobber, our CRM, but we Connect Syndrome connects with tons of home service CRMs, but every single quote that goes out over that amount, we're automatically sending a handwritten card that just says, Hey, thanks for the opportunity to give us. Uh, to let us quote your project. Right?
 
And then it kind of gives a value proposition to them of like, who we are, what we stand for, and people, what, what we know is people buy, especially if your service is non-transactional, um, like if you're in their home or, um, it's a high value service. Like a high dollar service. People buy from people they, they know, they like and they trust.
 
Right? And no one's sending handwritten cards. You, you mentioned that earlier at the value of that. And so. We know there's a ton of competition in the market. For the most part. Everyone can do what we do technically, right? Like we're not special in any way. Anyone can wash windows, anyone can do the garage floor.
 
And so why do they choose? Who do they choose? Well, is it the lowest price or is it because someone stood out? You know, I don't think they're gonna choose somebody that's $50 less when you're buying something that's $4,000. Um. If the person that is of $50 more is like building you this, this relationship with you.
 
So that's the first thing we do, right? Every single time. And then the, our sales person's really good at following up. So he has a three, you know, personal touch follow up process, and then. Um, they either have said, Hey, contact me, hit at this time, and they'll keep following up. Or at some point they've become nonresponsive or they, uh, say no.
 
Okay. Mm-hmm. So those people that have not responded or said no, typically this is like a, you know, two months process. So the sales person following up through their system. So we then enter them. They go into this automation that says, Hey, send them a text message, send them a postcard, send them a voicemail.
 
And so every quarter we're following up with something super simple. The text message might be, Hey, this is Daniel with my garage floor. Guys, I saw you had a quote in our system. Uh, are you still interested in doing this work? Having the work done? And then it's just a response, right? It's just yes or no.
 
There's no offer, there's nothing salesy about it. And they, you know, people say, yes, great. You know what, you know what, what can we do as the next step type of thing. Or it's no, and say, thanks for responding. So anyways, we market to people that have said no or basically have gone cold and every single quarter.
 
We convert like a hundred thousand dollars of work from people that said no to us. Wow. Because we just stay in front of 'em. Right. And in sales, I like to say it's, it's not a, it's not no forever typically it's, no, it's, no, it's like not right now. Mm-hmm. Right. And what I mean by that is, um, you're busy, you're running your own business.
 
I'm busy. Like people that make enough money to buy our services are really busy. Their kid, you know, gets sick. They have a work trip, they. Uh, something happens at their house. They have an, uh, in-law they have to take care of. They go on vacation, like they're just too busy to do the thing now, but it doesn't mean they're saying no.
 
And so there's a subset of those, those people that you've already paid for the lead. These are expensive. And you're just not staying in front of them long enough or building that relationship. And so we do that all automatically, right? Like, I don't expect my salesperson to follow up for two years, but syn gym can follow up for two years in ways that feel authentic.
 
And it's not a text blast, right? It's not. It's very authentic messaging and, uh, doing those things is just giving, it is free money basically, because you've already bought the lead. So why not sell them work for like a, you know, very, very small marketing expense. Right. And in the garage floor space, I mean, these are really one-off tickets, right?
 
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one-off tickets, but in the cleaning space, exterior cleaning space, like these are recurring tickets. So Sure they, so in your case at for the garage floor company, which is by the way, my garage floor guys. And so at my garage floor, guys, they may have said no, but it's like you said, life got in the way.
 
They got busy. They still haven't had their garage floor coded. And our case, a lot of times it's, yeah, we've already chosen somebody else. But so now that's a complete completely different campaign, but it's still that follow up, like, yes. Great. What was your experience like with them? What could you have seen that would've been better?
 
Yeah. How can we create that for you? Right? Yeah. Like if they said, oh, we someone else, I'd be like. Hey, no problem. I hope you had a great experience. You know, would you mind if I reached out a year from now? Um, and you know, would you be open to me reaching out a year from now when you're ready to have the work done again?
 
Right, right. Something like that. Or just reaching out to them a year from now. Like if they say no, let's put them into a campaign that we know they're gonna buy this service in 12 to 18 months from now. Let's start talking to them again in 12 to 18 months. Let's automate that in, in such a way, um, that feels authentic and that.
 
We don't have to worry about, uh, a salesperson spending their time doing. Yeah. I love that. Um, I'm really, and you can, so as far as the content that's going out mm-hmm. That's all customizable, I'm assuming? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because, um, you know, I'm, you know, we're, we're always talking about how we can differentiate from our competition and, and whatnot.
 
The amount of experience that my company has in my market 26 years, by the way, like I know so much about how to protect my client's home. Yes. How to protect their investment from environmental threats like we live in a southern climate. There's so many environmental threats that cost them thousands of dollars of repair and replacement, and I know that our service can mitigate that.
 
So like. I think too, like just to think outside the box, like how can we use a product like yours because it's creating. That automation, but it's creating the, also the personal touches because I'm, I'm in a place where I just wanna educate my clients. Yeah. I feel like if I educate them about what they need to know, because I have the experience, I've been doing it in this market for so long, and I've seen my clients that have benefited from regular routine cleaning and maintenance.
 
I've seen the benefit from it. I have testimonials, I have case studies, I've got all this stuff. It's like I'm trying to figure out. How are we getting that? How am I trying to, and that's really what I'm building all my marketing on at this point. Yeah. Is how to do that. So all these tools and like Send Gym, this just becomes a way that we can, it gives, it's like the catalyst to help us do whatever that messaging is.
 
Yeah, yeah. Whatever that message is, we can help automate it and get it out. And it's important that it's the right time, right? Like the old way of doing things was, well, every spring I send out this every, but it's like, well, you know, you might have served 10% of your customers within the last three months.
 
So are they getting that too? That's 10% wasted and or 10% of people are annoyed, right? Like, so how do we, how do we hit them at the right, the right people, at the right time with the right message? Um, now that we have all this interconnectivity with, you know, CRMs and tools like syngen, you can be much more targeted with, you know, who gets the message and when they get it and that it's at the right time.
 
And there's sophisticated tools out there, like I know home service companies are using go high level. A lot of marketing agencies are doing that, but, um, that is, you know, it's. It's much more difficult because they don't, they're not home service specific. And so you're out there trying to figure out exactly what you wanna build and starting from scratch.
 
It's like buying, you know, a thousand Legos and saying, build me, you know, uh, a. Build me a a car, like a Formula One car, right? Like build a model of this, right? Or you can buy something like Syn Gym that all we work with is home service companies and we have the recipes or the directions to the Lego set and it's like, Hey, we're giving you all the pieces.
 
Mm-hmm. Which is something we didn't do well before, by the way. And now it's like, Hey, here's what you're buying, you're buying. Uh, formula One car replica and here's step by step how we're gonna do it with you. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's just a lot more simple and, and, you know, easy for people in our space to use.
 
Yeah, I love that. Well, that's what we're all looking for, by the way, Daniel. I hope so. I hope so. That's hope add ast, come and change all of it, right? Yeah, I, I love it. Um. Okay, well big fish, small pond, right? Yes. Big fish, small pond and, and how we do that. So, um. I wanna kind of go back to like, in regard to sales and generating leads.
 
'cause we've talked about, you know, conversion of leads. So I guess let's just go backwards, um, and talk about the actual lead generation. And again, this is not my space, so yeah, enlighten me. We know that we want, we know that we need to determine who our target market is. Um, and then what are the other ways, like what are the top ways that companies can generate the right leads?
 
So send Jim as a product that you have that can do that. What are other ways that small businesses, 'cause a lot of our listeners, Daniel, are really new. Into the industry. Yeah. Probably, you know, five years or younger, I would say a ma for majority of our listeners. So they're all probably in that stage.
 
Like they've got the cool trucks, they've got the right stuff, they know how to do the thing. Um, but they need, they need the business so that they can grow. Yeah. So talk, talk me through it. Yeah. So the first thing I wanna say is we, when I teach about marketing in the home service space is that, um, the best return on investment is always gonna be marketing to your customer list because they already know, like, and trust you.
 
And like I said, people buy from people they know, like, and trust. If you did a good job, there's no reason they're not gonna buy from you again. But we can't assume they remember us or that somebody else doesn't send them a flyer and they're like, oh, $400 off, I'm gonna do that. Instead, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so when we start our businesses, we don't have a customer list to market to, right?
 
Mm-hmm. And so we build this muscle. We, we, by necessity, we build the muscle of I need to find the next lead. And we become good at that. Like if you're a sales organization, you become really good at finding the next lead, finding the next customer. But it's like going to the gym and only working your biceps, right?
 
Like you get huge biceps, but like your body's out of balance. And it's required to start your business. But what you don't realize is that in five or 10 years, let's say, like if I was to buy Sheila's business, the majority of what I'm buying is not Sheila's equipment. It's not her employees. It's, it's none of that.
 
It's not the branding or the website despite, you know. As entrepreneurs, we always feel like, oh, my brand's amazing. My, we have the best website. Like the reality is not from an investor standpoint, it's not, it doesn't have hardly any value. What they're buying is they're buying that customer list because they know they can sell to those people and they can generate jobs.
 
Really, when people come to me and say, I need more leads, I've said, do you need more leads or do you need more jobs? Right. And so the easiest way to generate jobs is to sell to your existing customer list. So at some point in your journey, you have to realize like. If I have 500 customers, like what am I doing to market to them?
 
Because when I had 10, I didn't market to them, I just sold to them. Right? I need the next 10 and the next 10. But you need to be aware in your business as we progress and mature, that we need to transition some marketing budget back to marketing, to our customer list. So that's the first thing. If you have a list out there, you should be doing that.
 
Mm-hmm. The second thing to your point is, um, we need to capture people that are already looking for the service. Right. So we, we know that people searching on Google, uh, for my service, like they're actively ready to buy, and they're ready to choose who they, you know, who they're gonna buy from. So local service ads, uh, you know, being on Google AdWords, uh, having your GMB up right and showing up on the maps, like those types of things are super important because people that find that are ready to buy.
 
Right. And then as you capture all of that, right, or you're doing that, it's like, okay, well that's only enough to get my business to here. Like how do I go to the next level? Um, and then it's like, well, maybe I need to be on meta and maybe I need to create my, and then at some point, like all the way, at the other side of the spectrum is I need to create my own demand, right?
 
I need to sell. I'm done selling to people that know they need the service and they're searching for it. I'm done selling to people that are aware of the service, but they're not sure if they need it. Uh, and now I'm gonna sell to people that have no idea about the service or that they need it. Mm-hmm.
 
Mm-hmm. There's the progression and you wanna start at the left, right? I wanna sell to my customers first. I wanna sell to people that I know, uh, are looking for. I wanna sell to people that need it, but they don't, you know, know about it. Let's, right, let's work that progression. But what I find a lot is we, we become addicted to this, to the next lead, the next lead, the next lead.
 
And we don't really understand that we're sitting on a gold mine with our own customers. So I really want to emphasize if you have a customer list. You know, you've been in business two plus years, like you should be marketing to your customers. If you're not, you're missing out on tons of money. Um, the other strategy, can we talk, can we talk about that for a second?
 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I about this. No, I love this. So, um, let's just hang on. Marketing to our existing client database. Yeah. So I know that in the huge, um, mastermind, we talk about all the different channels. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about different marketing channels. Yes. Sorry. Hang on. A call is, that's all right.
 
Um, so what are those different marketing channels? Yeah, so we, what we teach is we wanna do five to seven touches in the five to seven channels, right? So how do we get in front of people so many times that they can't miss us? So, um, you know, a channel can really be anything from your website, your Google ad.
 
Your text messaging to them, your yard sign, your truck that's wrapped your, uh, door hangers, your neighbor mailings, postcards, or your Facebook ads, right? Like, we want to at least choose five and you can't start this day one, but you wanna work up to having five different ways that you're getting in front of the customer.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, and you want to choose the five most effective and then. The other big mistake I see as cust as uh, companies get bigger is they start trying to attribute leads. And I know everyone's gonna say, you gotta know your numbers. You gotta know your numbers. Yes, you gotta understand customer acquisition costs and your, you know, the cost that it costs you to get a job and to deliver a job.
 
Um, all those things. But you start trying to attribute like, well, you know, for example, if you're running TV ads, uh, I, I work with somebody that's a really successful in the gutter space, the gutter cleaning, gutter repair, and he runs TV ads and he said, everyone says TV doesn't work because they try to say, you know, well.
 
I ran a TV ad, but no one said they saw me on tv. Right? But what it does, what he does see is like his website, traffic goes up, his Facebook ads get more effective, right? He gets, and so it's a system of things all working together. To say, Hey, this delivers a really good customer acquisition cost, and this is working.
 
It's not, Hey, uh, it's kind of like a team, right? You can't just have just the sales person. It's like, well, the sales person delivers all the revenue. I don't need anyone else, right? No. It's like, no, you need the, you need the ops manager, and you need the technician, and you need the office person. The whole team.
 
And it's really difficult to break it up and say, well, my office manager only delivers this value, so like, I, I should get rid of her. Mm-hmm. Like, that's silly. And it's the same thing in marketing. Right? I love that. Okay, so now we know. So we've got our target market. We know who we wanna sell to. We know that we need to, we need to touch on them five to seven times.
 
Is that in a year? Like in the course of a year, when you say five to seven touches, what does that mean In a year? Yeah. Um, so like the, the, the studies basically say they need to know about your brand seven times before they buy. Um, got it. On average. And so anybody, like, you're trying to get a new customer, you want to see them, you know, seven times, and if they see you seven times in their buying season, right.
 
That might be in. A month, that would be fantastic. Um, is it seven times over two or three years maybe? Uh, it just, we don't know when they're gonna buy, so we wanna stay in front of them, is the concept. Got it. Okay. So it doesn't really matter what the timeframe is, but that seventh time, they're most likely gonna become a lead or they at least recognize with you.
 
And if they want to do it, then they're gonna probably call you. Yeah, the key is to stay in front. Like we know that Sheila's gonna buy soft washing at some point, right? So how do I stay in front of her long enough to know that when she's ready, she chooses me. Instead of saying like, you know, I'm gonna run Google ads for a month and see how it does, or I'm gonna send one round of postcards and see how it does.
 
It's like, well, the chance you might have hit Sheila, and we know Sheila's gonna buy soft washing, but there's 365 days a year, and she got your postcard on one day and that wasn't the day she was ready to buy. So right. It, it was wasted. Right. Like it doesn't make any sense. Right, right. Okay, so, so we've got our five to seven touches, and then we've got our, so an over five to seven different channels, which could be a number of different touches, right.
 
Whatever that may be. Whatever, whatever, whatever avenue we're choosing to get in front of them. Yes. So now we have all that. Great. How does that help us determine. How much market penetration we can actually acquire in our current market? Yeah, that's a good question. So the tools like predictive targeting are helpful to understand how many people are actually buyers in your market, right?
 
So you can't say, well, there's a hundred thousand people in my city and I service 5,000 of 'em. So a 5% market penetration. You might be serving the only 5,000 that buy that in the whole city, right? Yeah. So you might have a hundred percent market penetration. You know, using a tool like Synge, you can go on, you can enter, I wanna look 15 miles from my shop, right?
 
Or whatever the radius is that you wanna serve and say like, how many people? And it'll break it down for you of like four tiers is what it does. And it'll say, here's the top tier buyers, there's 30,000 people. Okay, well like how many of those am I serving? Now we can start understanding a little bit better of like.
 
Do I have a lot more opportunity here? Do I not, you know, a hundred percent's always, you know, gonna be impossible, I would say. Mm-hmm. But what's realistic? Is there another really big competitor? Can I get 30%, you know, 20%? So that's how I would start thinking about it. But unless you understand how many people in a market are actually buyers, like market penetration is, is kind of silly.
 
'cause you're just like, it is like me saying. Well, there's 260 million people in the country and like Syn Gym serves, uh, 5,000 of 'em. Like I'm, I'm this much penetrated, right. But it's like, no, like there's only so many businesses that would buy this. Yeah. I think that, um, I think I, I wanna don't wanna say it's a guess because it's definitely a calculated.
 
Um, thought yeah. To go, okay. In my market, I, if I, if I were to do some study and say, 'cause back to my $600,000 and above, right? And yeah, most of them are retires, but they don't have to be. Um, I will know that I want them to live within five miles of the beach, and I know that my market is, you know, so much, you know, so many miles up and down the beach.
 
Okay? So. To come up with like a realistic market penetration. For me, it was kind of simple because I've just gone back and looked at what type of penetration do I have in these different communities that we work in, that we have long time standing in. So I know that there is one community in my market that we are, we teeter anywhere between, we've tracked it for the last three years.
 
We teeter right between 20 and 23% saturation in that market. Wow. Just so you know, there's over 6,000 houses. In that one community. So like that's a really good penetration in that and we stay consistent with that. And I also have a sh ton of competitors, ton of competitors in that market too. So to me it's like, okay, this is probably realistic for me to say that we can have 20% market penetration.
 
Now how can I do that same thing in all these other communities that we're working in? Right. I wanna have that same. So I guess like for me it was a practice of going, okay, I've got my different beaches. Those all have X amount of houses kind of trying to figure out. And you can use different online sources for figuring out how many of those houses fall on that 600,000 and above, which most on the beach are well above that.
 
And then also in these communities, most of those houses are too, I mean, there's very few, if they're a townhouse or something like that, that would fall below that. So it's kind of like, it's been a really healthy exercise for me to just look at my current market and say, okay, if I were to get 20% in all of these in the study that I did, how now I have an average ticket of, let's say it's a thousand dollars and I, and I times it by all those houses and then say, okay, and there's just 20% of that is what I wanna grab.
 
Ultimately that's telling me what size company I can aspire to be. Like what is my, what is my total market saturation where I go, okay, super successful. Now I wanna stay here and maybe now I can take that model and I can do the same thing in other markets. Right? Yeah. That's the way it all works for me and this is a lot of what I've learned in, in the huge Mastermind.
 
So what do you think about that? I love it. Um, the, the important thing is that we have a, uh, that we have a method, right? And that we have a good understanding. I think your point is, is correct that like it's all an estimation, right? Even our data tools and estimation, but it's to have some type of thinking behind the how you.
 
How you're making your decisions, right? You're not just being like, well, I think I can do this because I don't know, I woke up on this side of the bed today, there's, there should be so much. I wanna be a $10 million company. Great. How are you gonna do that? Exactly. And like it might be all wrong, but if you understand the logic behind it that I wanna be $10 million, I don't have 10 customers that pay me a million dollars.
 
Okay, well. If I don't get there, is it because I can't get 10 customers to pay me a million dollars? Or I can get 10 customers, but they only pay me 900. Right. And then we start tweaking the assumptions based on our learnings. Mm-hmm. But you, you gotta have some methodology. So I love how you approached it and I think even most businesses are, are even thinking about that type of thing.
 
Well, guess what? I learned it in the huge mastermind, huge mastermind's. Great. Hey, uh, am I able to present my screen? I can show you our tool in your market real fast. Please. Let's do it. Um, hang on. You're gonna get me not, we could do it offline. Okay. You try. If you can do it, great. I don't know if I need to do something on my end, let me know.
 
Okay. Let me see if I can do this.
 
Okay. Can you see this? Um, hang on, I'm gonna add that to the stage. Hey, awesome. All right, so this is our new predictive targeting tool. And, and this is, I think where your office is, is that right? Um, nope. You have to go. So from Florida, I'm in the southeast of North Carolina, so Okay. Go to Right the where, oh wait, where are you?
 
Uh, sorry. Yeah, this is, uh, no, you were right. You were right. Yep. You were right. Sorry about that. Okay. And so how far down do you serve? Uh, probably go from the state line. Okay. So you could go from Myrtle Beach to Wilmington. That would be my territory. Okay. Oh, shoot. Let's do this. Let's just do this. Just, uh, we'll do it quick and easy, right?
 
And you can literally just hang on the coast. There you go. Let's do this and then we're just gonna say, window clean, exterior cleaning, and go. And this is the cool thing is it's looking, it's doing all that calculation in the background that we talked about with all the data and looking at, um, what we know about people buying exterior cleaning.
 
And then it's saying, Hey, 31,314 people are four times, these are the most likely people to buy your product. And they're four times more likely to buy than an average person using demographic filters. So this is like, this is four times better than saying I'm only gonna mail to homes or market to homes that are above 600,000 in are retired type of thing.
 
So there's 31,000 that are four times more likely. If there's another 28,000 that are two to three times more likely, and if you wanted to include just people 600,000 and above, this would be like those, like they're kind of, you know Right. Just using demographic filters. Okay. You know, you're looking at like maybe 115,000 people that are, you know, pretty good to market to.
 
I would say these would be, you know, your ideal customers. So does that help you, uh, understand that and what, what are your reactions to that? Well, I love that. So does it find the people for me? It does. It does. Yeah. So all you'd have to do is click send Mailing here and it'll generate those addresses, uh, that you select and then you can choose the, the thing you wanna send to 'em.
 
That is freaking awesome, Daniel. I love it. Yeah. Really cool. I love that. Okay, well I'm gonna make sure that we, um. I'm gonna make the request that this podcast can be shown in video form, um, which I really like to move to that anyway, so I'll see if we can do that. Otherwise, maybe we can take that snippet and put in the show notes so that people can actually watch the snippet to see what that looks like, but absolutely, that's super cool.
 
I love it. Okay, well is there anything you wanna finish off with today? 'cause we're about out of time, but this has been an amazing conversation. What do you finish? No, I just wanna say thanks for having me. The huge mastermind is, you know, was, is super helpful. I was part of it for, you know, over five years.
 
Um, the people you meet there, uh, almost any, almost some, there's someone there that's done what you're trying to do. And so just those relationships and finding the who and not, you know, using chat GPT to. You know, guide you is really helpful. So, um, if it's not that, just the emotional support of, you know, connecting with other entrepreneurs is, is really incredible.
 
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Um, the community. Is it's not, it's not about, you know, you go to conventions and things like that and everybody's, everybody's there kind of in show off mode, right? We're the biggest, we're the best, we're doing the coolest things. Like all of that. There's a totally different feeling in the huge mastermind, I have to say.
 
It's really a lot of giving to each other. Yeah, it's a lot of supporting each other, helping each other out. Um, and the whole model is set up really great for that. And you know, I think. We do talk about the Mastermind a lot on this podcast, and it's because I really want people to know that that community is out there and it exists and you know, it involves people like you, Daniel and everyone, like from people like you to people that are just starting out and people like me that have 26 year companies, um, it's all over the place.
 
So it's like no matter what you need, I guarantee there's somebody in there that can help you. And, you know, they've done a really good job of, of making sure that, again, back to that giving spirit. We're, we're always trying to just speak from experience. People that listen to this podcast, you'll never hear me say that this is what I think you should do.
 
Instead, I'm only gonna talk to you about what I have done. And most of the times those were huge, massive mistakes. Yeah, and if you can learn from me and the mistakes I've made in my 26 years, then I have brought value to you. To have access to somebody that has more than 20 years experience in doing what you want to do is just incredibly valuable.
 
Yep. Can't say it's all been right, but you know, I'm still learning and growing and you know, but yeah, it's, um, it's been a journey and I just love it. So, um, but thank you so much. There's so much gold that's come out of this conversation today. I love just learning from you about sales and marketing. Send gym sounds amazing.
 
Um, and can't wait to dive more and learn more about it. And you'll probably be hearing from us soon, Daniel. That sounds good. Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate your time. All right, you too. Thanks for being here. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode.
 
I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business.
 
And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you.
 
And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners. And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
 
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
 
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
 
And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
 
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
 
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Jonathon Henderson of Pressure Washing Marketing Pros for a practical conversation about what it really takes to grow a home service business from startup mode into a scalable operation.
Cutting through the usual marketing fluff, Jonathon explains why most companies between $0 and $500,000 do not actually have a lead problem. They usually have a sales process, admin, or follow-up problem. He breaks down the difference between referral leads and digital leads, why trust has to be built differently with each, and how reviews, CRM systems, boots-on-the-ground marketing, and better lead handling all play a major role in growth.
Sheila and Jonathon also dig into how AI is changing search behavior, why website content now needs to be more specific and useful instead of stuffed with keywords, and how companies can stand out in increasingly crowded markets. For exterior cleaning and other home service owners, this episode is a strong reminder that sustainable growth comes from mastering the fundamentals: knowing your market, building trust, creating repeat business, and tightening your internal systems before throwing more money at marketing.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
The Huge Convention
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros free strategy session
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros Facebook
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders.
 
And every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild.
 
Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
 
Hello. Hello, this is Sheila Smelter, your host and contributor for the Huge Transformations podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I have a great interview with Jonathan Henderson, pressure Washing marketing pros. He's a seven year digital marketing company and we dive into, really most of our discussion is talking about if we're a company that's trying to scale from zero to 500,000.
 
We do a lot of discussion around this and where we need to focus on marketing and how. He's able to help companies kind of get to the next level. The thing that I love about this conversation with Jonathan today is that it is so incredibly practical, and even though we're talking about marketing and digital marketing and AI and a marketing checklist and current marketing trends, and you know how to close a customer, we're talking about all these things in this, in this show today.
 
But you know, really, if you're a zero to 500 or if you're a. Million to 2 million to $3 million company. It's all the same stuff. It all applies. I learned so much from listening and talking to Jonathan today. Um, this is just really good conversation. He completely speaks our language in the ex exterior cleaning space, and I just, this is so gold.
 
I love it. I am so glad that you're here to join us today. I hope you'll be an active listener, and I thank you so much for listening to the show. Hey everybody. This is Sheila Smeltzer, your host and contributor for the Huge Transformations podcast. Today I have Jonathan Henderson with us. Hey, Jonathan.
 
How you doing, Sheila? I'm doing great, man. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us. We get to dive into marketing today, don't we? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Uh, tell our listeners who you are, what you do, and, and so we'll get started. Yeah. So my name is Jonathan Henderson, as Sheila alluded to pressure washing Marketing pros.
 
We're a digital marketing agency that exclusively works with exterior cleaning businesses, whether it's pressure washing, gutter cleaning, paper, ceiling, and even Christmas sign installation. So we have over 145 plus clients in the US, Canada. So we've seen, not all, but we've seen a lot of what goes on in the industry.
 
Very cool. So you're, you have a digital marketing company and it, it's not all digital, right? Is that incorrect to say that it's digital? Yeah. So SCA website design ads. Mm-hmm. Okay, great. And your, like your niche is an exterior cleaning? Yes. Cool. Exclusively exterior cleaning only. All right, well we've got the right guy on the show today then.
 
'cause we've got a lot of listeners that are in the exterior cleaning space. But really a lot of what we talk about would go into other verticals, right? With garage floor coatings or any, any type of home service business. Of course, of course. I have experience in the home service industry. I used to be a part owner of a junk removal company as well, so I kind of know how it is to run a home service business also.
 
Okay. Well, Jonathan, I just wanna start, how did you, how did you, how did you learn what you know, how did you become an expert in the space? Trial and error. Right? That's just probably how everybody is when they say YouTube University trial and error. I first started off. About seven, eight years ago, and I was in the military at the time and I wanted to find a way to supplement my income, kind of make more impact with what I was doing.
 
And so while I was deployed, I just wanted to pick up another skill. 'cause I had so much free time on my hand hand. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna learn how to run Facebook ads. And so I bought a course that I saw on Facebook and I dove into that, started implementing some of the strategies, cold calling businesses in my local area while I was, you know, deployed with that.
 
So it was like a 12 hour difference, like seven to 12 hour difference. So I'm cold calling those businesses, landing a couple of clients that were restaurants, and I started doing Facebook ads for them. Then after I did Facebook ads with them, I eventually, one, one of my best friends had a digital marketing agency that he was starting at the time, and he was doing more website design, SEO stuff.
 
So I was like, Hey man, can you teach me how to do that? So he taught me how to do that. I started implementing that for local clients. Once I got back from my deployment, I started implementing that for, I had about seven or eight people in my local area. Roofers, plumbers, floral shop. Right? One lawyer too.
 
So I was doing digital marketing for them, and I, a pressure washing guy. He's still a client of ours today. Jesse Meister. Shout out to you. Uh, propel Pressure Cleaning Warner Robins. Right. But, uh, he had hit me up and he said, Hey man, do you, have you ever done any, uh, marketing for pressure washing businesses?
 
I didn't, at the time. I didn't even know what it was. That was around 2000. End of 2018. Beginning of 2019. And I was like. I don't know what pressure washing is, but I know that I can definitely help you out. 'cause there's not as much competition now, you know, now we know eight years later there's way more competition.
 
Right. But, uh, at the time we got him ranked, we said, you know, we did really good for him. And I asked him if there was anybody else that was in his industry or there, if there was anybody else that was in this industry. And there was, and so. I just began, you know, cold calling. I began doing these video audits and uh, that's how I got like the first 15 to 20 clients.
 
And in 20, like in basically beginning of 2020, I just decided to take it full time and uh, start pressure washing marketing pros. So that's how I learned at first. I just bought a bunch of courses, executed it myself, and yeah. So, and I'm assuming, because you and I met in the huge mastermind group, so I'm assuming that when, what was your first huge convention?
 
My first huge convention. Funny enough, my first huge convention was in 2000, which, which one was the one that was in Atlanta? What year was that? Atlanta. That's going back a bit. Yeah. I think that was like 20, was that like 2019 Maybe I can tell you that was, that was, yeah, that was a minute ago. Um, I know that most of them have been, have been in Nashville.
 
There was Atlanta and there was Washington DC at one point too. Mm-hmm. Um, that's going back probably more like 20. 13, 15, something like that. But um, but yeah. So Atlanta was your first show? Atlanta was my first one. I think that was probably right before COVID. 'cause I think in 2021 it was in Nashville, I think in 2021.
 
It may, it may have been in Nashville, but I think my first one was like 2019 maybe. I didn't know anybody in industry just, and I already lived in Georgia, so it was just like a. It was literally just a drive up from there. So it was either 2020, the one in Atlanta? Yeah. 20 20, 20 19. One of those. Okay. That was my first huge convention.
 
Okay. And I've been going every single one, every year. That definitely gets you in the network of exterior cleaners. Yep, it does. Yeah, it definitely does. Okay. So yeah. So if a company came to you and they were, I don't know, exclusively a, I know garage floor coatings are very popular in this group too, but if they did that, would you have services to offer them?
 
I wouldn't necessarily have services to offer them, but just like how we're in the huge mastermind group where we get a lot of value from that. I also am in a different coaching group from my digital marketing agency, right. Exclusively, which we have other partners that are in that same one, like shout out to Drew Larson over, you know, he runs digital marketing agency.
 
That's also in the, in our group too. And so if somebody needed garage doors, I have, I have a good friend, good buddy. Whether it's garage doors, whether it's plumbers, whether it's junk removal, whether. Any home service business you think about, I have somebody that does the same exact thing that we do, but for that particular vertical and niche.
 
Love that. Okay. Awesome. That is great to know. Yeah. I have interviewed Drew Larson on this podcast, so you can go back in the previous episodes and find that. Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. So take me through, um, let's, I'm a company, I'm in pretty much startup mode. I'm between zero and 500,000. Um, what's a, what's a marketing, well, let me ask you this question first.
 
What are the most common struggles you find with the startups in regard to marketing? In regards to marketing. You know, I could probably take that even broader than just saying general, you know, but I will, I will. I will say marketing, but I think it ties to the generality piece too. I think that one of the biggest things is gonna be finding enough time to be able to close, and so.
 
What I find is that once guys hit that 250,000 mark, 300,002, between 250 to 350,000, it gets very difficult for them to scale any type of marketing that they're doing, even if they use our type of marketing. What ends up happening is they're so, they're on the truck a lot, and so they might treat. The referrals that they get, or people that are past customers, they treat those leads the same way that they would treat a Google Ads lead an SEO lead, or even like a cold lead.
 
Right? And so, mm-hmm. I always say the biggest mistake that I see guys make when they're between zero to 500,000 is that they treat every lead the same. And so they, they expect that, so they have the same sales process that they would take a person who's a referral through, or a person that was already a past customer, they, they also take that same sales process to somebody that may have clicked on their Google ad.
 
'cause that's when a lot of guys start getting comfortable, you know, investing in digital marketing. When they hit like that a hundred to 150,000 a year, they start getting a little bit comfortable. Like, Hey, I might run some Facebook ads and Google ads, but then they might say, these leads are lower quality.
 
You know, these guys aren't closing right now. And it's like, well, yes, because the clients that you're accustomed to were the ones that were referring. You were the ones that were already past customers. And so most of the time when I ask them, how are you getting most of your jobs, 90% of 'em will always say that are in that phase.
 
Like, oh, you know, word of mouth. Word of mouth. Existing client referral. Yeah. Uhhuh, bingo. Right? And so they don't know. So I think the biggest struggle right there is you have to be able to dial in someone of a sales process. And you, and not even a sales process so much, but you have to be able to just have somebody answer the phones and have a different kind of process that you take people that come from maybe a Google ad than somebody that, that found about, found out about you from word of mouth.
 
So kind of in short though, what, what's the overall difference between a existing client referral to mm-hmm. A Google ad in regard to lead and conversion? What, what, what are we doing different? Yeah, perfect question. So if I know if, if I know I'm a past customer, I already have that trust built with you, I have a different intention.
 
I might be looking for quality, I might be looking for trust. And so that's why if I'm a past, if I'm a referral or a past customer, that's why I go back to you. A person that's on a Google ad doesn't know you from anything. They just have a service. They just say, Hey. I need, you know, pressure washing done at my house.
 
And so at that point, what are they gonna do? They're gonna click the ad, they're gonna see you, you might have some good before and after photos, they're gonna give you a call. And if I just pick up that phone call and I quote them over the phone and I just say, well, yeah, it's gonna probably cost you $350.
 
You know we're gonna do X, Y, and z. That person's just not gonna close over the phone. I'm not saying like they could, right? But you're gonna be missing out a big sector of people, right? Maybe only 10% of people that call from a Google ad will one call close, right? But you're gonna miss out on like the 90% of people that you may have to follow up with that you may have to go out and give in-person estimates to that may not know about your brand.
 
Because even your branding and how long you've been in business plays a factor. And so some people might. I always call it omnipresence, but if you're always marketing in different kind of avenues. But I don't, you know, I don't want to go too long on a tangent like that with that stuff, but I would say that those factors play a role in that.
 
And so a lot of the time with Google Ads, just to put it simply, they don't, they don't trust you as much right now. So you have to go ahead and build more of that trust. And so that might be. You might have to have more follow ups, you might have to go ahead and do it in person. So those are different things that a lot of guys, I feel like they just hit that plateau.
 
And of course we know Sheila, you know this too, hiring, right? Yeah. In a service business, no matter what it is, whether it's pressure washing, digital marketing, a restaurant, you always will have the demand. A lot of the time you just don't have the people to execute it. You know? It's much harder to find.
 
So this is awesome. 'cause really what I just heard is the existing client referral. That's what I call it. That's what I, mm-hmm. That's my campaign name for it. My company. Existing client referral. You're right. When those, when those referrals come in, that is somebody sending someone they care about to someone they trust.
 
There's already that trust factor there. Mm-hmm. And that is a very, that is a much easier conversion. But what you're saying is that if they're coming off of a digital lead. Now you have to actually create that trust and you wanna now start to build the relationship. And it is a very personal relationship, especially in home services.
 
Now, don't get me wrong, we have clients that are, can be transactional. Like, Hey, here's my house, here's the door code. Just go in, do what you're gonna do, or whatever it may be. But, um, those, it's, it, 90% of the time it's gonna be somebody that you want to, is gonna greet you at their front door and be there for the service and get to know you while you're there.
 
So really, we wanna build that trust. There's, there's another layer of trust building from the digital lead. Bingo. Bingo. You're right about that. And I think that you said something important there, Sheila. I think the advantages that exterior cleaning businesses have. Then other industries that I was in, like junk removal is that people care about their homes.
 
Number one, people really care about their homes, so you're gonna find more people that aren't as transactional in the exterior cleaning industry because they're like, I want the right company to go ahead and clean my home so people pay a higher ticket price. Now, the industry that I was in with junk removal.
 
Know, when I've talked to my business partners about that stuff, I would always say in junk removal, people are only loyal to, to whoever had their attention, right? Mm-hmm. Because with junk removal, I could get any, it's, it's a low barrier entry, right? I can get anybody to remove the junk. I can have a 4,000 square foot home.
 
Right? Does that change the price of how much? If, if one, if a 1500 square foot home has this amount of junk, like the same amount of junk as a 4,000 square foot home, that's the same price. Right. Doesn't matter how rich that person is. Doesn't matter how big their home is at that point, it's gonna be who's ever loyal to their attention, right?
 
Or who's ever or gonna be loyal to whoever has their attention. So the thing I like about exterior cleaning is that a lot of people care about their home. If they have a 4,000 square foot home, then they're gonna be like, dude, I'm not gonna just have any company come to my property and clean it. Right, number one and number two, you can go out to that property multiple times, right?
 
I can go out there, clean their roof, I can go out there, clean their gutters. I can go out there, clean their driveway, their house, and that doesn't have to be all in one sitting. It can be in multiple sittings. I can do their house, their driveway, their roof in the springtime, and I can clean their gutters and hang their lights in the fall and wintertime.
 
So just hang in on Google for a second. I have so many questions to ask you, by the way, but just hanging on Google for a second. How much weight do Google Reviews play in this process? Because they're with Google reviews when, if they really take the time to go in and scope out your company and they're reading, you know, hundreds of five star Google reviews and customers saying all these very detailed things about their experience with your company, that is actually a way to automate this trust building from the get go, I would assume, right.
 
Yes, of course reviews are one of the most important ranking factors, not only on Google, but just building trust overall. And so I think you hit it on the head, Sheila, about, about building reviews and why that is very important, especially for a company that is brand new. I always say, and I know we'll talk about that here soon, about like AI and how and how like such behaviors are changing as time goes on.
 
But in those reviews, especially for newer companies, like I know for you, your guys' business has a lot of reviews, right? If I'm a new guy on the block and I'm trying to compete with you, Sheila, like it's gonna be very hard for me to do. I, I have to find a way to go ahead and accelerate that process of how I'm gonna be able to generate my reviews, right?
 
And so I believe it's only gonna get harder for newer businesses because just me, I don't know. I don't know if you shared the same sentiment, but I know when I first got in the exterior cleaning industry back in like 2019, 2020 timeframe. There wasn't as many exterior cleaning businesses like there just wasn't nearly as many as we have now.
 
And so now I see significantly more exterior cleaning businesses than I saw six, seven years ago. And so what does that mean? There's gonna be even five to six years from now, there's gonna be even more. And there's already companies that are established that have already been doing exterior cleaning for.
 
10 years already right now in 2026. So how is the business gonna be coming in in 2028? How they can accelerate that path? Like you said, they're gonna have to get reviews, they're gonna have to build that good foundation. You're speaking my language right there. So, I mean, my testimonial on this is that I'm a 26 year company in my market.
 
Yeah. And when over up until the last 10 years, I maybe had five real competitors. Yeah. And now it's probably 30 like yeah, I do competitive analysis. Like it is insane how much competition I have. It is, it is like when you get there, it's a whole nother bag of issues of how you stay on top, how you remain on top, and then how you differentiate how, like what is it that you can do to rise above?
 
'cause you know. I don't wanna fight for the, I don't wanna fight. I like, I've, I feel as though I've earned the authority to be able to be the thought leader in my space. Mm-hmm. And so I don't wanna be scrounging for these bottom ticket jobs. Like that is not who we are. Um, don't get me wrong. There's work out there for everybody.
 
And I think that's the beautiful part about it. Every market has work for, there's plenty of work around for everybody, you know? You're right about, and I like really, as competitors, we all need to be really supportive of each other and you know, creating the standard, like, I don't know, I'm sorry I could go off on this for a long time, but I have the standard in my own market and it's like, you know, my hope and dream is that the people coming in, the other companies coming in and starting up.
 
That they are able to actually benefit from kind of the market expectation, the pricing expectation and things like that, that I have created, you know, through a plus PRO services. So, you know, but that's not always the case. But we can, we can move on from this topic. It's just, it's a, it's a real, it's a real thing, a daily, daily conundrum.
 
Um, it is, no, I, I understand that 110%. Yep. So I guess the flip side of being the new guy trying to come in and compete with the established, there's also the established now having to compete with the new companies, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and a lot of it is price, but let's, um, I wanna ask you, staying in the range of a zero to 500,000 uhhuh, like what is the marketing checklist?
 
What, where do I need to be focusing? And then kind of order of importance. Kind of like top five. Okay. No, I, I love that question. So first the thing, the first thing before I go into the marketing checklist about that, so I can answer it the best way I can, is that I would look at the market that you're in.
 
Like there's gonna be different markets that, like if I'm in Joplin, Missouri, I have to look at my market and say, if I'm getting advice from a guy that's in Orlando, Florida about his marketing, those are two separate markets. Are they not? Yeah, one of them is a significantly lower household income.
 
Significantly lower population while Orlando has a significantly higher income, significantly higher population. So first thing that I would tackle if I'm doing any type of marketing, you know, and I have a checklist with that, is I'm tackling who is my customer avatar? What, what does my, and as we talk about in the mastermind, I won't go into it a lot, but like, you have to look at your total addressable market, right?
 
Like who, like how many people can I market to? You know, how many people are my customers? How many people can I go ahead and reasonably capture in this market? If there's only 50,000 households in the area that you're in, you're probably not gonna get off 50,000. Right? But what percentage of those people can you go ahead and actually reasonably attain in that market?
 
And so that's the first thing I think guys missing on is say, well, my friend said that I should be doing this from a marketing. It was like, well, your friends in. Orlando man, and you're, like I said, you're in the middle of nowhere. In, in Arkansas. You guys are gonna have two different ways that you're gonna be marketing.
 
So address that first, you're gonna wanna go ahead and address what your market is, the population, household income, all of that. Second thing that I'll go ahead and look at is I always say you need to have, you don't need to be doing every marketing thing under the sun, but you need to at least try enough.
 
So like the second thing I would say is that I would be trying as much like boots on the ground strategies as I can. And I would give it time to go ahead and test. And what I mean by that is this, is that a lot of guys will say, I sent out edms. And it's like, how many did you send out? Well, I sent out 500.
 
How many times did you do it in one month? I sent it one time. One month. Got no return on it, so I stopped doing it. And it's like you didn't have enough volume in order for you to see if it was actually gonna go ahead and work or not. 'cause for me, for example, when we had our business for junk removal stuff, I'd have to send out at least.
 
Like 5,000 for it to be profitable. If I only send out 500, I have the wrong story about it. So that's why you wanna have that foundation set, especially if you're a zero to 500,000. You wanna have marketing strategies that, that don't necessarily rely on digital per se, because you wanna build a good foundation.
 
'cause what if you're digital marketing agency can't? What if you just relied on a digital marketing agency like ourselves for your business and then all of a sudden. You're not getting the leads that you need, you're always gonna be at the mercy of that digital marketing agency. So that's why I always say you need to be building up your own lead source boots on the ground marketing.
 
So find ways you need to find all the ways that you need to market, but test out as many as you can possible while you're in that range right there to see what's gonna be most successful for you in your market. That'd be like the second thing I would talk about. Third thing that I'd talk about if you're gonna go digital, um.
 
It'd just be looking at your market in the sense of making sure that you have enough budget to spend. Because if I'm in that sort of 500,000, if I'm at the two 50 to 350,000 range, then I probably have a little excess cash to go ahead and market for Google ads, Facebook ads. I'd look at my market. If I'm at that 100,000, 150,000, I may not.
 
Right? So I think that you need to have a CRM in place as well, because I know Sheila, you're like, John, this is nothing about Google, nothing about, but it's just like. You can't be as successful with digital marketing if you don't have these things in place. Like I, like, I know guys out there that are at $200,000 a year in their pressure washing business, and they don't have a CRM yet.
 
I'm like, what are you? They're like, I'm using QuickBooks man. I'm using QuickBooks for all my, I'm like, you don't have a CRM. They're like, no, I don't have a CRM. And it's like, well, that's why you're losing money on the table because you know you're probably just getting these one time transactions. And so at that point, you wanna make sure that you have those basics down.
 
So I'd say three things, Sheila, right? You wanna make sure you look at your, you wanna make sure you look at your household's market or your market, right? Your demographics, so that you know, yeah, you wanna test out many marketing sources that aren't digital first, so that when you're in a pinch and you know that Sheila, you've been in business over 20 years, there's gonna be times when you, you're in a pinch.
 
I can't just be like, well, I need to just raise my budget on Google Ads or Facebook. Like sometimes you're in a pinch and you're like, I need to get jobs. Now, whether that's door knocking, whether that's yard signs, whether that's something that you put the demand in front of your customer's face. Right, right.
 
You don't, for them to come to you, you put the demand in their face. So that's why we test out strategies like that, which are usually boots on the ground, right? And then just make sure that you have a CRM and these different things in place so that when you do go ahead and you get leads, you're organized, you're not disorganized, and you're able to maximize the leads that you do get.
 
So that's what I would say for guys that are in that range, the things that I just see that they need to go ahead and do. I love that. Um, yeah. You know what, this is the playbook. It's the playbook. Yeah. It, it is the, it is the basics. And um, and you're right, it's very important to create that foundation before we move into the big spend items and things like that.
 
Mm-hmm. You know, I love to, um, like in regards to not digital. Yes. There's EDDM, so every door direct marketing, um, mail marketing, um, you know, don't underestimate the power of a really solid referral program. Bingo. Just like you said, like an existing client referral is free. It's free. Bingo. Exactly. And, and, and it's the most trusted lead you're gonna get.
 
And you're probably gonna have over 50, 50% conversion rate on that existing client referral. So how can you encourage more of those and incentivize your clients? And I had tell you one thing. Jonathan that we've, our referral program has been so simple over the years and existing client referral is our number one marketing campaign source, meaning it's, it's our top performing marketing campaign every time and is because people wanna refer us whenever they do.
 
All we're doing is we're sending them a little thank you card and it says, thank you so much for referring so and so sending someone you care about to someone you trust. It means the world to us. That's it. Yeah. And guess what? They wanna continue to refer just like that. Yeah. And I mean, you know, and we've done it where we give them discounts and things, but you know what, it doesn't feel as good as when they just get that handwritten card.
 
Mm-hmm. And I was talking to Daniel Dixon about this, um, who's, you know, son Jim and whatnot. I interviewed him on this podcast last week. Mm-hmm. And we were talking about like direct mail marketing. Um, which we are definitely getting off the digital right now, but direct mail marketing, how it was used so heavily that everybody was just throwing 'em away, but now we're in a trend that nobody's doing it anymore, so you'd actually be really darn effective by sending a, a mail marketing piece.
 
And if it's the right piece and if it has that personal touch. Um, and so there's so many things out there that we have that we can automate with even direct mail marketing now. And I just think it's so cool. Like I love to watch these, um, like I love to watch things come full circle, right? I mean, yeah.
 
It's really like the trends really do come full circle and it's really fascinating to me, especially over, you know, so many years. Yeah. I think it's timeless. So I love how you kind of laid out your first steps and the marketing checklist. So you talked a little bit about ai. Mm-hmm. Um, and this kind of goes along with like current marketing trends, but how is AI impacting what you do with your clients?
 
That's perfect. So for our clients, I, AI is impacting it because I think that as time goes on, just like you, just like you said earlier, Sheila, like how direct mail, it's all coming full circle, right? I believe that even with ai, it's all coming full circle because guess what the with JI and all of that, if I digitize right, if I digitize how I do edms and different things like that, to where I can say every time in my CRM.
 
I close this customer out. Right. It sends them every, you know, sends the people around them direct mail. Mm-hmm. And so for us, what I'm seeing is I, I'll take this question two ways, right? The first is, how, how does it affect the searcher? Well, it comes full circle. Back then, 25, 30 years ago, people used to look in yellow books.
 
You know what I mean? Like who had the biggest adding yellow books, right? Like they're on the front page. The first page right there, they had like the biggest one. Like you're laughing at that, but like the biggest one right there, right? I'm not that young, you know? I still know that. I still know that time print frame, right?
 
So you'll look at that and you'll be like, all right, then you see that. It's the same thing with Google now With Google. What ends up happening is people just saw, okay, these guys were at the top. That's what I'm seeing. And so with ai, the platform. It's just a recommendation platform at this point, and it's kind of like consultative.
 
So now instead of if I typing in, like give me, I can go to chat GPT, which a lot of our clients is ramping up, like we track our leads, people are using chai, GPT more like 90%, you know, like use chat, GT course perplexity. But like a lot of people using chat GPT to do their searches where they're just like, Hey, give me like, uh, you know, gimme the pricing for house washing in Charleston, South Carolina.
 
And they might have that, and then they, and then they might say, well, gimme companies that are in this price range. So. If you're gonna win with AI in terms of searches, in terms of being able to have customers find you, you have to provide the most context, right? Talk about the equipment that you're using, talk about your unique process of how you may clean a roof, how you clean a driveway, how you clean a house, what type of house siding are you cleaning, right?
 
What type of, are you mainly commercial? Like what kind of commercial jobs can you go ahead and you have a hot water unit? You have a reclamation unit, those are things that will differentiate you. That if you don't say that on your website, when AI platforms are crawling this, then I might say something like, as a customer, the old journey of how I used to go on Google would be pressure washing companies near me.
 
And I'm not saying Google's not going away anytime soon, but what I'm saying is that people would be like, I'm gonna see the reviews, click on it, you know, and I have it there, right? And I have to do my own research. I have to go look at their website, all of that. With ai, it consolidates that process, right?
 
People are all about what? Convenience. So now if I just say pressure washing companies in, you know, this, this area right now, it gives a, it gives a list of those companies. The, the search doesn't stop there. Now I can ask, try GBT. You know, do you know the pricing of these companies? It's gonna give you the pricing and if it, if you're not, if your pricing's not displayed, then you're not gonna get shown.
 
Or it might say, which of these companies could clean a an epay deck? Right? Because we know Epay is like a specialty wood, which one can clean an Epay deck? And if you can clean Epay decks, but you don't say that on your website and you don't say the factors. Any of that, you don't provide context. You're getting left out on that.
 
'cause now it's like this company mentioned it on their website, they clean EPA decks, right? Yeah. And then let's take it even step further to say like, well, which company would you choose between this one and this one? They might say, well, we would choose this company because they have this many reviews on their website.
 
They talk about how they use this treatment with their EPAY stuff. We didn't hear that from this other company that they do that. You might. And also this other company offers a three year warranty that they had that we saw on their website. We didn't know about these guys, clean epay, but we don't know if they offer a warranty.
 
So I think the safest choice for you would be this company because they have a warranty. This is their process, and they talk about how they specialize in Epay decks. And so the more context you give your customers, the better that you'll win in this new future of ai. 'cause now AI can grab this information at a fingertip.
 
For the customer and our customers. A more informed customer. Now they're not just a kind of customer where they're just like, they're gonna do the research. We're getting smarter and smarter customers now. Right? So that's, you have to go ahead and adjust for that time period. So, am I hearing on this, am I hearing that really the content that you have on your website, so I remember website content was all about keywords.
 
Keywords. Keywords. Keywords. There's like regurgitation of keywords on every single page. Every single page. Over and over and over and over again, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, but am I hearing that now with ai, because it is literally crawling all the information that you have on your website, that it is more important for us now to have websites that have really crafted, curated content.
 
That is specific, like, like using proper industry terms and like really using, like being very descriptive about how we are doing things. Is that what I'm hearing? That is what you're hearing. That is what you're hearing because you gotta think about it. Maybe 10 years ago Google's algorithm wasn't as smart.
 
It's just, it's just the truth, right? Yeah. Like so what they did in order for their algorithm to be able to gather context is what they had to go ahead and look at different keywords to be able, and like a different page should be like, okay, we're looking at these different keywords and we can summarize what this page is about.
 
Just like how this chat GPT, you don't think that Google's algorithm has this. Same type of technology that's used on perplexity, Claude, you know, all these different AI platforms that they're not using within their algorithm. And then also, you gotta think this is the dumbest the internet and AI will ever be.
 
So they're only going to gather more and more and more and more context. Mm. And so if you just have a page that has misinformation on there, if you have a page that doesn't talk about industry terms, whatever it is, then you will get left behind. And so that's why I say for a lot of our clients, when I look at their websites, like, dude, you like, you wanna rank in Atlanta, you got 20 reviews and you only got five pages on your website.
 
And it's like, well work off my website. I have right now. It's like, nah, man, I can't, right? Like you just, you don't have enough of the, you know, which we do for our own clients, right? Like we, we'll have like a two hour onboarding with them. I'm not trying to shield any of our service or anything, but I'm saying that like, what I do is that for our clients to get as much context, we'll have a two hour onboarding talk about every single process that they do.
 
Yeah. Roof cleaning. Driveway. Cleaning. House washing. We wanna know the type, we wanna know the process. We wanna know the pricing. We wanna know if you have any discounts, any bundles. We want to know the type of equipment you're using for it. We wanna know how many years you've been in business. We wanna know your unique mechanisms.
 
What makes you different than the other company next door? Right? Because once you differentiate yourself like that, then Google can look with their helpful content update and they say, okay, this actually, this content's better than this one. So do keywords matter as much? No, because Google is much smarter at gathering context.
 
Yeah. You know why I love this, what we're talking about right now, because, and it really does correlate back to the conversation we were having about the new startups and the experienced companies and things like that. Mm-hmm. Like the way that the algorithm is working now and you know, the content needing to be very more authentic and true and not just like that, that, that, that Right.
 
Yeah. To me, that does actually raise professionalism in the industry. Mm-hmm. Because if you wanna show up in the chat, GBT, you know, answer. Right? Yeah. You need to have these things and you need to know what to build and what to say, and you need to actually know your industry and know how you perform the services and how to describe them and, and all of the, you know, ins and outs, it's like, I love that.
 
Yeah, I do see that as a huge benefit of what we're talking about right now, so, mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I had never thought about that before and I'm really glad that you shared that with us because of course, it's got me thinking about things a lot differently. Yeah. So, okay. So I understand how AI is working as compared to like typical like older Google searches and things like that.
 
Mm-hmm. Um. What are the most successful ways that you have found, let's just stay in that zero to 500,000. Mm-hmm. What are the most successful ways that you have found to help your clients generate leads? The most successful way that I've helped them generate leads is going to, it just really depends, once against you on their market, right?
 
So lemme give you some scenario, lemme give you some scenarios. If I have a client, for example, that is like, Hey man, I'm at the 200, $250,000 range. And a lot of these guys I might say like, Hey man, I've been in business for even six years. You know, I've been in business for six years and I just, I've never done any digital marketing like that.
 
Or I've tried this company and I've used that and let's say they're in Orlando. I'm not gonna tell this guy website, SEO stuff, right? Because he needs leads. Now I'm gonna be like, dude, you need to go ahead and run some Google ads. You know what I mean? Or you need to go ahead and capture demand. You have, you have about a thousand to $2,000 that you can go ahead and spend.
 
And so from us, what we do is we, every client situation's gonna be unique. 'cause like if somebody that was like one of the big, like even for you, like you came to us and you were like, Hey, I'm trying to do this. I might look at your market and say. Well, maybe Google Ads is not the best route for you because you've been in business for 26 years.
 
So for you, you could probably Dom dominate more with your SEO and your online presence even more because you already have that momentum. You already have that domain age. So every client and every business is going to be different, and I think that's what guys have to take into account is that your chapter five is not, is not the same.
 
You know, your. Your chapter five is not somebody else's chapter 18, whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm. So the current place that you're at right now, you may not need to do what somebody else is doing. And so what I tell guys all the time is I just say, you need to once again look at your market and we help guys identify that, you know, like look at your market and we'll be best for you.
 
'cause if I'm in Drop in Missouri, as I mentioned earlier, before. I may be able to just do website, SEO if I'm at the 150,000 range, because there may only be 10 pressure washing businesses out there. And so I might have a way for me to go ahead and compete to where if I'm running Google Ads, there's only 150,000 people out in that area, Google Ads is not gonna do as well because I have to wait for the demand of people.
 
And so there's different ways that you have to go ahead and look at your market and say. All right, then. What's the best strategy for this client? Or what's the best strategy for my business? Which is why I always say number one thing is look at your demographic. Look at your population. Yeah. Look at your total addressable market, and that's how you're gonna determine what marketing you're gonna be able to go ahead and do for your business.
 
I love that. And, um, the total addressable market thing, did you, did you learn that from the Mastermind or is that something when Dalkey covered that, that you kind of, you already knew about? I kind of already knew about, but we'll say this, but I'll say this. He gave me a, a much better formula for how to calculate that.
 
Yeah. And then it also made us significantly better. Whenever we were, whenever we were going about doing it for our client, looking at their market, it, it made it significantly easier for me to go ahead and understand what we need to do. So, yes, I knew a little bit about it. 'cause I was like, you know, in digital marketing it's like, okay, how many clients can I have?
 
In the pressure washing industry. Right. But the way that he broke it down, I was like, okay, man, this actually, I love the method of how I can go ahead and do this not only for our, you know, business, but also for businesses that we, you know, execute these services for. That's why I think the Mastermind has been such killer for this, personally, me as a digital marketing company, because I get to kind of see what you guys are going through, right?
 
Like, as you know, in the industry. And also I get to learn about like. Different strategies about selling, you know, how to talk about selling, uh, you know, different methods of how you can buy other businesses, right? It doesn't have to just always mean outright buying other business. There's different means which they discuss there, which I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense.
 
So there's a lot of stuff that I've learned that's helped me, you know, enhance my knowledge and help our clients. Um, you know, when it comes to executing marketing or when they just ask us about advice anyway, right. For anything. Yeah, I know I, yes, 100%. And I can imagine that you hear it all if you are kind of interviewing your clients on the level that you described earlier, like you probably, you probably have such a good understanding of the industry above and beyond a lot of us.
 
'cause you're hearing it from so many different clients, right? Yeah. And if you're asking those questions, I mean, honestly, you could be a very integral. Part of, and, and I never really thought about that angle before that. Yeah. You, you, you probably hear it all. Mm-hmm. You know, you know what all of our struggles are.
 
So what, what are like the top struggles that gimme like some common threads? I'll give you the top three that already know right now. So like from zero to 500,000, there's only two main problems that guys have. Okay? Number one, their admin is messed up. And what I mean by their admin is messed up. They don't have somebody answering the phones.
 
They're the one sending out the invoices. So I always say you need to have that admin advantage when you go to the zero to 500,000. Like if you're gonna get to that, if you to have a million, you need to have the admin. Because you're not gonna be able to go ahead and like be on the trucks, send the invoices, and as much as you say, Hey man, I'd like to do the admin stuff and I'll have the text work, you're still gonna have to sell.
 
You know what I mean? Yeah. And like if you don't have that office admin, when the client complaints, my plans are, my plans died. Like that shouldn't be you as a one that should be addressing that with the, with the customer. That should be your, your lead tech or somebody else that's going on that property and talking with that customer and making things right.
 
But your office manager. Or the person that you have in the office is first taking that, addressing their concerns, scheduling the guys to go out there and do whatever they need to do, not you. Right. So that's the first thing is the admin advantage. Like usually guys do not have that. And that's the biggest struggle that I see that guys have with that number one.
 
Number two is just hiring, 'cause I talk about admin advantage is just hiring, like when it comes to hiring, being able to hire for help. Guys are like, oh, Jonathan, I just lost three of my guys. Like right now. You know? And they go in the busy season with that. They either, they overwork their guys, they don't train their guys enough, they're trying to fire them.
 
They say, I can do it myself. And they just find themselves in this perpetual loop of staying between 200 to $350,000. And they don't ever plateau from that. 'cause if you probably know this sheet, like if you're gonna ever cross 250,000 in yearly revenue, like you cannot, and pressure washing, at least you cannot.
 
I just have not seen a business, and maybe somebody will comment on this podcast and be like, that guy was wrong. But I've just never seen a business where they've done like 400 thou, 300 to 400,000 just themselves. Unless they have a super specialty business. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I'd say like 98 to 99% of guys are not gonna reach half a million just doing the work themselves.
 
Yep, 100%. There's only so much you can do, and you're right. You have to start to build the team out and it's funny that you say that. My very first hire outside, well, first were technicians. Mm-hmm. Hiring techs to start to get me off the truck. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, hiring techs. And then, um, and then my first admin position was just a general admin office manager.
 
She did everything. She did QuickBooks. She wrote the work orders for the day. She answered the phones. She deposited the checks, she paid the bills. She did everything. Um, I miss her dearly, by the way. But anyway, she, she, but she did everything. And then, then as the company started to grow, then that role was divided up into more roles, uhhuh, you know, and that's really how you're building the team out.
 
But also my second, it was text first, hiring technicians first, then it was the admin, and then it was sales. And that was the hardest position for me to let go of was sales. Sales. Yeah. I love, I loved it, but when I sat down and I wrote down how much time I was spending on it, and there's time that I had, I needed to be doing other things.
 
Mm-hmm. It was like a no brainer. The, the writing was on the paper. I needed to hire somebody to do sales. And that was, that was, um, that was a big game changer for me. And I could have never done it. I would've been. I mean, if I didn't have people doing sales for me now, I mean, there's no way we would lose so many leads.
 
I mean. You know, so anyway, um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of the, the kind of the way that I got into building the team out. But you are absolutely perfectly hundred percent right. I think I, I think you said a per, I I think, I think you said, 'cause that's what I was gonna say. The guys that get the 500,000 to a million is usually gonna be like the sales process.
 
Having a sales team in that, in that order, and not necessarily getting more leads. But doing more with the leads you already have, right? Yeah. Conversion. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Extracting more value from them because guys are at 500,000 to a million. The reason why they don't hit seven figures is because they're not extracting enough from their, and they're losing.
 
Not only are they losing leads, but they're also like, um, they're also not converting, you know, the. One time customer that they had into a customer three or four more times, right? So, yeah. Yeah. So, um, such good stuff, Jonathan. I could keep going and going, but I think we need to start to cut it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
 
I think there's just been a lot of gold here and you've taught me so much, and I love just having, because I, I'm not gonna lie to you, and I get on the phone and get involved in these marketing calls and I don't. I'm not really involved in this, in my company, but mm-hmm. I do try to pay attention, um, but they speak a language that I don't speak.
 
Mm-hmm. But everything that you and I have talked about today, I completely wanna under 100% understand what you're saying. Mm-hmm. And you've given me, given me a lot of ideas too, but I really appreciate that. Mm-hmm. I, I appreciate you speaking my language as the business owner. Um, of course. So I just wanna give you props for that.
 
I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And, and like I said, I've been in your guys' shoes before running a junk removal, like kind of business with that kind of stuff. So it was, uh, kind of getting it from the ground up and doing, kind of going through those phases. So yeah, I try to take a. What people try to make digital marketing too complex or just anything like too complex.
 
Like if I, if I tried to have you explain window cleaning or pressure washing, you probably do it very easy to me because you know what you're doing. Right, right. Because you can, I can explain it to you easy when somebody starts to sound complex and they're like, well you gotta do, they probably don't know what they're doing.
 
Right. So, yeah. I really appreciate that. Um, oh, and I have just one funny for you 'cause it came up of course. See my hat A plus Pro Services Inc. Yes. Yes. So we, the, the tagline is we are so experienced that our business name came from being first in the Yellow Pages. Oh, okay.
 
Oh, man. Actually, every time, Hey, it's a differentiator. Yeah. Yeah. None of my competitors can go in the room in a b and I group or whatever and say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh Lord. So anyway, I just thought I'd add that in because I think you called it actually, um, you called it something different. Yellow books.
 
Yellow books. Yellow books. I called it Yellow Books. They, I'm kind aging myself a little bit, you know, like, I, I love that. No, I think it's hilarious. Oh God. So, um, yellow Pages. Yeah. Yellow Pages. I said Yellow books. Yeah. Yellow Pages. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Mm-hmm. This was an awesome conversation.
 
I could keep talking to you. I hope to have you back on again soon. Yeah, of course. Um, and I look forward to seeing you the next mastermind and all the huge activities next month. Yeah. Next month may. You got it. Yeah. You got it. So, um, everybody, again, thanks to Jonathan Henderson, pressure washing marketing pros, and it's been awesome, Jonathan.
 
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Sheila. Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
 
And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
 
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period. Paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
 
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
 
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
 
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
 
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
 
And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
 
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
 
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with John Eastty of Perfect Angle Studios, a videographer and visual storyteller whose career started in high school when he took a video production class, got a business permit, and immediately began booking wedding videos. Over the past two decades, John has grown that early hustle into a professional video business serving clients in both the Northeast and South Florida, with work spanning weddings, conferences, expos, and commercial projects. 
 
What makes this episode especially useful for home service owners is that the conversation is not really about weddings or cameras. It is about marketing, trust, and showing up in a way that helps customers choose you faster. John and Sid dig into why video matters so much now, how even simple phone-shot content can outperform polished but empty marketing, and why owners should stop overthinking social media and start answering real customer questions on camera. They also talk about AI versus real content, how to think about authenticity, and why the best marketing comes from genuinely wanting to help the customer win. It is a practical episode for any business owner who wants to build trust, stand out online, and create better content without making it more complicated than it needs to be. 
 
Resources
Perfect Angle Studios
Light It Up Expo
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the Wild Journey of Entrepreneurship.
Let's dive in.
Hey, my friends, it's Sid with the huge Transformation Show. Thanks for taking your time to listen. This one's, this one's interesting and fun. I'm talking to somebody that's not in the home service industry at all. Matter of fact, they started their career as a wedding photographer, wedding videographer.
Now they have a professional video crew. But the way John thinks my guest is John Easty, the way he thinks and his bias for action and his very focused desire to serve his customer at a very high level is gonna be very insightful. To everybody and well, I'll tell you the rest on the episode. I hope you enjoy this conversation with John and learn a ton from it.
There's some great practical takeaways that'll help your business. With that, let's jump into our episode and conversation. Meet John Easty. Hey everybody, it's Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, and we've got another great episode today. I've got my friend John East Easty, Easty, I'm saying it right, right, Easty.
Exactly, yes. Okay. Cool. In my head, I'm, I'm slightly dyslexic and I always wanna say Etsy and I know that's not right 'cause it's not Etsy Easty. Um, but John's got a professional videography company. He is Perfect Angle Studios, and he's in the South Florida area. I know you go back and forth for the, you know, the northeast, um, to South Florida.
But I, before we go any further, I know one of you guys listening or you're thinking. Sid, this is a show about home service businesses and power washers and doing that stuff. Why do you have a wedding photographer on or a photography company? Guy and I, and I will tell you why in advance and then we're gonna get into the conversation is number one, uh, John has been to the huge convention a couple of times.
John has done video work for some of our industry leaders like Ryan Lee that does, uh, lighting secrets and. Also, John, you've got some really keen insight into visual storytelling that we can all use, and then mostly your mindset and your bias for action. And I take it from the very first conversation we had.
So that's where we're gonna start. If I recall correctly, we talked about a year, maybe a year and a half ago, we were looking at coming to the huge convention. We were talking about different videography needs, and I asked you how you got started and you're like, Hey, I took a videography class in high school.
And most people that would take a class like that would go, oh, this is a cool camera. I'm gonna go start shooting stuff. And you said, I went immediately and registered a business license so I could shoot wedding videography. And so that's where I want you to start. And tell me about like, why did you start a business right away?
Why were you thinking that and how did you even learn how to run a business in high school? Yeah, good questions. And uh, you have a fantastic memory for that. Uh, it, all of that is correct. So when I was 16, I took a video production class. Uh, wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life, uh, as far as my career.
Like most 16 year olds. 16, yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I always had an entrepreneurial. Mindset When I was a little kid, uh, I started writing business cards, printing business cards for neighbors, and I had it in my head that this was gonna be a great business. And, uh, I employed my grandfather, uh, my grandmother, my brother, and my babysitter.
Uh, that was when I was about seven or eight. And, uh, it, it didn't last that long. I had to fire my grandmother. Um, she had dementia and, uh, it just wasn't working out. And then my mom told me, look, you really can't fire your grandmother with dementia. Uh, so I learned a great business lesson right from there.
You gotta be kind to your employees. So I hired her back on, but the business didn't last too long. So years later, you know, at 16, uh, I just always wanted to work for myself. So I was working at typical high school. Job. I was a busboy in a restaurant and uh, the first day of this production class, the teacher told us, look, you guys can make a thousand dollars a pop filming people's wedding videos.
And I thought, man, you know, how many nights at the restaurant I'd have to grind to be able to make a thousand dollars? You know, at that age it sounds like an impractical number. Yeah. So I went to the town hall. I got a business permit, which I didn't really need. But, uh, I started advertising, wedding videography, uh, and that teacher was so kind.
He let me use the school's equipment even when we went home for the summer, use the school's equipment. Uh, and I had a hundred percent, uh, free, no overhead. The first two years, uh, all the school's equipment was mine to. Uh, I started contacting people whose engagement announcements were in newspapers back then.
That would be announced. Yeah. I'd write them letters. I'd send them a DVD. Uh, and that had a couple videos that I had filmed, uh, just as a practice, a teacher's wedding, a friend's wedding, a friend of my brother's. And so I had a portfolio told 'em, look. 250 bucks. I'll film your wedding. Uh, I'm working closely with a school advisor.
It'll help you. You're getting a cheap video. I'm working with an advisor, helps me, people wanna help out a kid. Uh, and so that's how I did my first view. And then after that, I just stopped telling people I was 16 and it helped that I looked older and. You know, my parents had to drop me off I think for my first wedding.
And then after that I got my license and I just, you know, it was actually kind of irritating to me how young I was because I wanted people, I always wanted to be older, Uhhuh. And so in April of this year, it'll be 20 years in business, 20 years since I started that business. No kidding. Okay. Great job.
That's cool. So I think, so there's so many things about that that are interesting to me. Not that you started business in high school, but that you actually. Looked for a, like a really good lead source. I mean, what's a better lead source than people putting their wedding announcement in the paper or wherever they post 'em now and just, and just calling them.
Did you, did anybody suggest this? Did you just come up with it? Like, I don't know, how do you find people getting married? No, I, I used to like to read the newspaper actually as a kid, which I think gives you some insight now into, uh, what a nerdy, uh, student I was reading the newspaper and going to apply for business permits.
Uh, I also liked to have fun, but, uh, I really was business minded. I, in fact, I convinced all the, all my friends in school, particularly in study hall, said, look, I've got a business you all are going to need. College business credit for working, you know, some type of job, an internship. Yeah. Why don't you work for me, uh, unpaid as interns and I need you to mass mail out all these envelopes.
You know, I'd start with the local paper and then it was like all, any newspaper I could get my hands on. Then the online editions, look up their addresses and have all these other kids stuff the envelopes for me and mail them out. Um, and I think it just came from happening to notice, look, people are engaged.
They're announcing it in the newspaper. I don't even know if they do that anymore, but 20 years ago they did. Yeah. Uh, and it kind of launched from there. Uh, but you know, the, the key in this I think was that I didn't just want to get to that, you know, charging a thousand dollars that was like that, uh, that pie in the sky idea.
I wanted to do a really good job so that people. Couldn't tell that I was 16, that I was 17. Uh, I wanted people to have a professional experience, a red carpet, white glove experience, and that made me feel really good when people commended me for that and when it was something that was gratifying. It's their wedding.
It's something that hopefully is going to happen once in their lives and it's really meaningful to them. Okay, well, well, um, take us on a, on a journey from, you got your first few weddings, you got a car and a license, so your folks didn't have to drop you off to shoot the weddings and you've turned it into a business.
And you just mentioned it's been 20 years, so bring us up to speed and hit a couple of the key points along the journey. Yeah, I'll just give you a brief bio and touch on a couple of the, uh, career, uh, a little bit of the career trajectory in that. So I, I was born in a small town in Massachusetts. Grew up there.
Uh, I did missionary work in South America, uh, for most of my twenties. I loved to travel. Uh, been to more than 50 countries, a lot of them with my wife. I got married, uh, six years ago, and, uh, right around that time, uh, because I had spent so much time in South America, I acclimated to the climate and really craved that tropical.
A lifestyle. So, uh, when we got married I told my wife, Natasha, look, I can't do it in the northeast full-time anymore. Anyway, really like skiing, we're avid skiers. Mm-hmm. But, uh, besides that, I just can't take the dark and the cold. So let's go down to Florida. Let's check it out. We'll keep the business here.
Um, she started nursing school here in South Florida, uh, and ended up being a great experience. We settled here, but I, I just couldn't. Change my entire business. It's all established in the northeast, uh, principally around Boston. And, uh, I, it was slow going at first reestablishing here in South Florida. So I transitioned around that time about six years ago into commercial videography.
So I still do weddings. Uh, it's a good bulk of what I do, but probably about, uh, 50% of it. Now approaching that is commercial videography. So what that entails, as you mentioned in the intro, is conferences, expos, uh, a lot of businesses within the home service industry. I'm the preeminent videographer for the landscape lighting industry.
Mm-hmm. And a few other businesses within the green space. Okay. Okay, cool. So with the, let's let's step into, uh, commercial videography and things and, and like, not, not that we have a sales pitch, but like one of the things in your bio online is you're a visual storyteller and, you know, I'm in the home services.
Most people listening are, and there's a, a, i lemme just ask you this. What sort of advice or strategy would you suggest if you were advising home service businesses, um, to do. In today's media age to make sure that they have a leading edge or a competitive advantage. We're talking about video. Talking about photography.
Yeah. One thing that's in our favor is we are in the, the world's largest economy, you know, by far wealthiest civilization in the history of the planet. Um. And the US has the second highest number of visual viewers globally, which is interesting because there are several countries that are ahead of us by a lot in terms of population, and yet Americans consume more media than any other culture.
So we're accustomed to that. What does that mean for business? Well, it means that. The translation is people expect to see video when they're going to almost any website, uh, anywhere from window cleaners to HVAC to, uh, e even of course, a videographer. But any type of industry you can imagine, professionalism builds trust and credibility.
So better engagement of retention and conversion results come from having. Video on your website and your social media being regular on there. Uh, in fact, I have a few, uh, statistics here that I had looked up before, that short term video rises year over year by 12%, but global spending on digital visual advertising has actually tripled since 2019.
Uh, so it really is expanding. Mm-hmm. And what's interesting, one thing I found interesting is there's a, a chart that shows the steep rise in short form video marketing. Uh, but it actually is expected to level off in the next few years. And the reason is, uh, the reason it's not as vertical is that competitors of a business that aren't doing video.
Well, they've already been doing this for four or 5, 6, 10 years. Uh, they don't need to invest in this anymore. Uh, they already have a long history of that. So if we don't have video already, uh, we're behind. If we're not utilizing it, it's obvious that our competitors are so it, it's time to make use of that if we haven't already.
So really is, is, uh, for small business owner using video? Is that. Just to establish, you know, no, like, and trust. Is that, is that the medium now that is gaining you recognition and trust in your marketplace the fastest or like compared to photos or, mm-hmm. What is that? The why is that so much better? Well, we know that on website and landing pages, adding video can boost conversion rates by up to 84%.
So that much, yeah. Yeah. Damn. Okay. Compared to pages without video, and in fact, in preparation for this podcast, I did an informal poll, uh, of the huge convention. Some of the sponsors on there. I chose five at random. Yeah. To find out outta curiosity, how many of these sponsors have video on their front page?
Okay. Well, only two out of. The five that I chose, that random did. And these are companies from all over the country? Yeah. Uh, one of them had video that was in the banner that auto played. Uh, the other one didn't. So you also wanna have audio or auto, uh, play autoplay enabled because people are lazy. They want to have that just starting now.
The two videos that were on there were great. One was a really informative and well produced, um, testimonial video. You know, I'll get to that. Uh, but your question was specifically about basically what does, what function does video serve? So if you are in the home service industry, uh, one, it establishes credibility.
Uh, two establishes and builds trust. Uh, and three, it's, uh, you're putting a face to the name. It's not just a, a nameless entity. Now, you may get a lot of your business from referrals. And you may find, well, people don't really access my website. That's not that important. But how are you doing with social media?
It is really important to be on there because people think they're not gonna check out their plumber, their electrician, their window washer, but. People are on social media for all sorts of things. Uh, we know how much time the average person spends in social media today. All of us are, you know, kind of addicted to it.
Uh, and for especially Gen Z and beyond, they're actually getting a lot of their recommendations from what's on social media. Uh, so this could be a few years ahead, but posting three to five times. Uh, a day across platforms is the gold standard. Yeah. Is every business capable of that? No. But just having a regular presence can show people that you care about what their customers see in you.
Um, you know, there was, uh, you had Marcus Sheridan, uh, on. Uh, a few weeks ago, or maybe it was a while back, but he had talked about the four pillars of known or trusted brand, and he mentioned show by video what others aren't willing to show. So really sets your brand apart. Yeah. Yeah. When you said cross posting, uh, three times a day on platforms, you mean like each platform?
Instagram, Facebook, yeah. Take like whatever, three posts daily on each. Yes, it's best, it's best to cover all of them. Yeah. Um, you know, Facebook targets a different generation mm-hmm. Than Instagram does. Uh, TikTok you know, I poo-pooed that at first for when it first came out, but, um, one statistic from a couple years ago indicated that, I don't actually remember the exact number, but a high percentage, like two thirds of.
Gen Z gets restaurant recommendations from TikTok. From TikTok Really? Instead of going on Google, you know, which maybe you and I would do Google Maps, you know, what's the best Mexican place around me? Yeah. They go to TikTok for it. Uh, so as a search engine, basically. As a search engine. No kidding. I, I actually have not heard that at all.
That's really interesting. Yeah. So it's good to have some experience doing that and already have the brand, uh, in that trajectory for utilizing whatever media we have, whether it's, uh, YouTube videos. I mean, there's some great window cleaners, pressure washers out there that have an amazing YouTube presence.
You can almost watch it as like reality tv. Yeah. And then for others in the home service industry. Now, uh, a large portion of what I do is conferences. So, you know, you take an organization like Huge, you want to attract as many different people as possible, which they've done a great job over the years. I mean, you have people for huge that recognize it's so important for networking that they're willing to sleep in their truck.
Overnight if they can't afford a hotel room, they're using the last marketing dollars they have to go there. Well, my goal when I'm doing conferences and expos is I wanna maximize the attendee and sponsor experience by not pestering people for interviews or testimonials. If the conferences doing it well, then.
All I have to do is ask people, Hey, how do you feel about being here at Huge, being here at X, Y, Z? Uh, yeah. And people rave about it, and that makes my job easier. So I, you know, with conference videos, I, I want people to recognize the value that they're going to get from their investment. And I also want to let sponsors know, Hey, you could be missing an investment opportunity if you are not here.
So how about some videos specifically for these sponsors to recognize what they're getting out of it? Yeah. Yeah. So I like the way you think, and I mentioned that earlier and it just, in this example, talking about when you go and you do a video for the conference, you are thinking about the results of the video or the impact of the video on the attendees or the future attendees to attract them and stuff like that.
So let's take that same thought process and put it on, you know, like Jeremy who has, you know, tri-state power washing. Uh, close to Chicago. And he, but he's like, he's like, dude, John, I'm way too busy to spend a lot of time on video. What's the, what's the low hanging fruit? What's the minimum that I, I need to do?
And what kind of content? Like, I know we do stuff all the time, but I don't have, you are like, what kind of content am I gonna film? I don't have ideas for that. Do I have to make a movie? Mm-hmm. Yeah, good question. So, uh, off the top of my head, you said, um, pressure washing, right? Sure. Okay, so pressure washing.
First thing that comes to mind is, uh, certain homeowners are wary of pressure washing because they wonder what damage could it do to my plants? What could it do to, um, you know, my roof, I have a specialty roof. Um. And pressure wants a pressure washer wants to get ahead of some of those frequently asked questions.
There's some content right there, and the good news is, and I'm gonna do a bit of a reveal here, you do not always need to hire a professional videographer. For every video that you make. In fact, it's not cost effective to have me come out and shoot some of this social media content. People do connect with authenticity.
So if you're in your truck and you're about to head out to a job, why don't you take. 30 seconds. Who cares what you look like, what time of day it is? Just do a quick video because something is better than nothing and say, Hey, we're heading out to this job today. It's, uh, in this part of town, and they've got some beautiful, I don't know, Spanish moss trees.
They've got these oak trees in the neighborhood. And one thing that always comes up is people ask, what about the plants? Well, here's what I do. I put a, a plastic coating, uh, over everything, over all the foliage and the vegetation before I even begin. I wanna make sure that those plants are protected. And in this part of town, people are very conscious of their topiary, of their lawn.
Uh, and so, you know, just a 32nd video on that. Now, I'll give you a few tips. You want it to be, uh, well lit. So it's worth investing in a, a small video light if you're gonna be shooting with your phone. Um, people can, by the way, I'll give you my email address after that, after this, and they can, uh, email me questions and I have no problem sending specific gear recommendations for a DIY starter kit, uh, because I found that with clients in the past when I've told them.
I may not be a good fit for you right now. Uh, they remember the education that I give them and they can come back to me in the future. Yeah. Uh, even if they don't, at least I'm trying to help somebody, uh, start off. So if you don't know what to post or how much something is better than nothing, just make it well lit.
Um, you really want to show who you are as a business owner, uh, and try to keep it con, um, uh, a little bit condensed. Uh, we don't wanna ramble on no ramble right now. No, we're not. Yeah. Okay, good, good. So I, you kinda combine two things. One, you combine the, the visual and how to, but you mentioned, um, Marcus Sheridan earlier.
And his first book, they ask you answer is all based on like, what are the, the most common questions you get for your business? And then just answer them clearly, honestly, transparently on your website. Now, when he wrote that he was doing on blog, but you could take that exact same strategy and you use an example.
It's like people ask you, what about my specialty roof? What about the plants? If you've got, you know, power washing, window clear, whatever type of company, you just go, what are the most common things people ask? And. Shoot a 32nd video about it. One minute maybe. Is that, is that where you're going? Exactly.
Think about it from as you would with any other aspect of your business. How would I wanna be treated? How would I feel? What is the customer going to think of, um, before and after transformations? With pressure washing, uh, short reveal videos of before and after an installation time lapse, uh, if you're installing something or, or just a time lapse of you working, um, customer testimonials.
Now that can be a little bit tricky as you're starting out. You may be a little bit more reticent to ask somebody to appear on video. Yeah. But what if it's someone that you've been servicing for a number of years and you've already established a relationship with them? Uh, so, you know, getting a quick ten second, uh, video testimonial of them compiling it into a 32nd reel where it's three, four or five of them together.
Um, you know, another thing that people use me for video for is training or internal documentation for their crews. They wanna ensure consistency in their quality. Um, and that's valuable for growing businesses with multiple crews. So video doesn't necessarily have to be on the consumer side as far as your clients goes.
It can also be internal. Yeah. Yeah. Um, question for you in, in video world or you know, what, for social media, for the business perspective, not what you do, but AI versus real. Gimme your take. Uh, as far as creating the video, yes. Okay. Or creating video images. Uh, what are, what are you seeing, what's in the marketplace?
I see a lot of people that are making, you know, they AI images and stuff and slap it on their social media. What sort of effect does that have on the customer, the potential customer and their trust level? I if you're only using ai, I mean AI as we've, you know, talked about probably ad ad nauseum at this point, most of us is an excellent tool.
It can, you know, my wife is in, um, nurse practitioner school right now, and it's helping her with the a PA format of her papers. Oh, wow. So it's a great tool for that, and the professors understand that and they recognize it's being used. Um, now for us, when we go to a website and it's very clearly all done by ai, what does that tell you about the person who's created the website?
It shows that there's a lack of a personal touch if you're utilizing ai. Uh, as I am as well, uh, in my editing process to speed it up to accomplish things that it might take you hours and hours to do, and now you can do it in a few seconds, well then that's great. You're using that tool properly if you're using it in place of your own mind, of your own consideration for, uh, the client.
Then people can tell that we're still at a point where people can tell AI generated images and videos over anything else. So it's as simple as if you're walking down the street and you see a truck with an amazing wrap on it and it's clean and you know, even the license plate doesn't have dirt on it, you think?
That is someone that cares about their business and if they care about their truck that much and their crew cares about the truck, then they're gonna care about my property. Well, similarly, it's that effect, seeing someone's social media, someone's website, if they care enough to have some personal content on there and about me, section for the owner of this, uh, pressure washing business.
A um, frequently asked questions from this window cleaner. Uh, then it shows me that they actually care enough to invest time in their business. Yeah, no, I agree for sure. And um, also like the, a, a lot of guys are hesitant to pull out the phone and video themselves and be on camera for their own business and, and it, but if you are the leader of a business, if you're the owner of the business, I think the benefit can't be overstated to show you and the authenticity.
And you know, just being present and speaking about your company or speaking to customer's needs. So what, I mean, what's your advice to somebody that just doesn't wanna be on camera or they don't like it? They're embarrassed. Uh, well, that's most of us. My, my first comment would be, okay, you're a normal, humble person.
Uh, because, uh, not too many, um, people without a big ego like to be filmed. None of us like the sound of our own voices. Uh, it's uncomfortable. Um, and you know, just as a side note, I have had times where. Uh, I, I'll be doing interviews of a CEO or a board member, um, for a corporation, and I've had some people at the outset tell me.
This is gonna be no problem. I speak in front of thousands of people. We're gonna get this done fast. And that's a red flag when someone says that to me. I know it's gonna be take after take after take, because their attitude is that they've done it all before, but as soon as the camera starts rolling and if there's a teleprompter, or if there isn't, the lights are on, people start to sweat.
So, you know, my goal is to make someone feel. Comfortable with that. Uh, but when I have somebody that's the opposite, they say, oh, I'm not good at this. This is not what I do best. I realize I've got someone that I can work with there, uh, because they've acknowledged it's unnatural. It's unnatural to talk to a camera.
Um, and if you care though about. Your customers and about your business that is going to come through. There is just absolutely no. Um, there's nothing that can replace something that's genuine. Um, I think you had a speaker at Huge last year or the year before that said, belief is transf. Preferable. Yes.
Um, and, and, you know, empowering others. But you can see that now if your first few videos, you don't like the way you look or the way you sound, it's not about that. It's about the authenticity. If you have content that's really aimed to help your, your, um, target market. Now if you are a, you know, guy just starting your own pressure washing business, if you're just starting off in the landscape lighting industry, that might be the homeowners.
If you are a board member operating this massive convention and you want to keep attracting. Uh, sponsors, it's the same thing. If you care about them, you're gonna show the value. So don't be afraid. The first view. Now, a couple years from now, you might go back and feel like you wanna delete that. Maybe keep it for posterity to laugh at yourself in the future, but something's better than nothing.
Uh, it it's just good to have consistency. Yeah. Have you seen, um, I think it was on the, the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, ed, ed Sheeran, and they're talking about, and you know, the, the comment was like, you're so good. You're so, like, you've, you do this amazing music. You do all this stuff. And he goes, you guys, like, I sucked at the beginning.
And he pulls out his phone and shows a video of him playing and singing his song, like when he started and it was gross. Like, it was, it was like, this is hard to listen to and you can't believe that it's. Someone like Sharon that's at the top of the game and he just goes, you're gonna sink when you start.
Just get started. Yeah. And you get better as you go along. Like if you care, you're gonna get better. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Well, let's, let's circle back around as we wrap up. So it, we've kinda embedded it throughout our conversation, but if you had, um. Someone, a home service, they come to you and they're like, Hey, I need help setting up video.
Like I, I'm on a thin budget. I probably can't afford you now, but I hope to in the future. But like, gimme a bullet point checklist of what can I do to get started and what do I need to post? How do I edit this shit? Like how do we, how do we roll? What are you gonna advise somebody to get? Just get started.
Okay, so the first thing, if you're not at the point where you can consider a professional videographer, uh, then lighting is the most important element that sets professional videos apart from amateur. Always use, utilize natural light. So have a window in front of you so you have light on yourself. Uh, use what's called neutral density filters on whatever lens you're using to compensate for bright daylight.
So a lot of our listeners will be outside. Presumably shooting video. So, uh, if you're in a sunny environment, you wanna use that nd neutral density filter to compensate for bright daylight. Make sure you have good quality audio as well. Always use a quality microphone. Don't just use your phone. Uh, they sell e even beginner kits that are actually pretty good now that you can get on Amazon.
Send me an email. You can run it by me. Ask, Hey, is this a good one or not? I'll just, I'll tell you yes or no. Um, now with AI Audio Enhancement, which is an excellent use of that tool, you can make cheaper microphones sound better, and that wasn't possible even a year ago. Uh, you can use your smartphone to record audio, clean it up with some software that takes a little bit of time.
I think it's better to just get the good quality gear ahead of time. Might cost you a few hundred bucks if that, and if you're on a much smaller budget. Start off a little bit lower and just kind of as you scale your business, scale what you're doing with your video output. Very cool. Speaking of that, when you talk about the, um, like get good audio, get a good microphone.
A couple years ago, somebody turned me onto the dj. I, um, lavalier the cordless laugh mics and I, I was so impressed and I keep it in my backpack all the time 'cause I record a lot of video and it's like this little thing. It's got two mics in there. Uh, but yesterday, so this weekend I'm, I'm flying to Nashville to go work on our mastermind and I always have this kit, so I do interviews and things at the same time.
My wife is going to Mexico and she's hosting and coordinating a Pilates retreat, and she said, Hey, can I take that microphone with me so I can, you know, record a couple of my classes for my people? I was like, no. You can't take my microphone, but I thought, well, I'll just go get her another one. And they're like 250 bucks.
Now, DJI has the mini version of this. It's 75 bucks. Mm-hmm. And it's high quality. So like you were, I was emphasizing your point, like it's not that it, you can start on a low, low budget and. Start doing some really good things. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, if you are at the point that you want to at least consider having a professional videographer, we would start off with a discovery call.
Um, if you just want me to show up and film something, my business isn't right for you. I take a personal interest in what my clients do. Um, I recently had a, uh, phone call from a prospective client who asked if I was available on a certain date. And I said, well, what's the project that changes the scope of my availability?
Yeah. Um, do I need other videographers? My team? Do I need to be there? And she was clearly annoyed and she's like, it's something about the launch of a, a brand of mushroom coffee. And I said, oh, well, you know, that's really interesting. I've heard about that. Uh, and I know mushrooms have a variety of health effects.
So, uh, what got you interested in starting the business? And she said, look, I just wanna know if you can film it and how much it's gonna be. And uh, I thought, you know what? After 19 years in business, I've got a sense of if I'm gonna accept someone as a client. Yeah. And this wasn't looking good. And I said, look, I know you're valuable.
Your, your time is valuable. Just a few more questions. Who's the target market? You know, she got exasperated and said, I don't know what this has to do with price. I just want to know your price. And I say that because. Uh, this isn't the the type of project I'm gonna take on. I have to care about my clients, who they're serving, uh, what they're doing.
It's not just about price. I want to know that as a creative, I can take on your project and I'm past that point in my business. I'm not taking on projects that aren't stimulating or that I know I. Can't help with, um, what's stimulating for me, it's helping someone grow their business or capture something meaningful.
Uh, and when it comes to corporate video, the reason I find it interesting is when I contribute something small to their visibility, their sales, whatever their objective is, I see that growth and that's really rewarding. I know video can do that. And it's honestly exciting to see what video can do as far as making a difference in someone's business.
Yeah. Okay. Well good. I think this is a good place to, to land the plane or land the drone. I didn't mention that you also are a drone pilot for your videography business, but, um, let's land it there because your, your. Mindset and your bias for action has led you into a great business. But a lot of this that I didn't realize when we started the conversation is your you Like you definitely have a keen desire to see your clients win, and I think that's a big part of your success, but it's also a good lesson for everybody that's listening.
Like if. If you, as a business owner and service provider, if your motivation is not just to get paid for cleaning something or get paid for doing a video, it's to see how you can impact the quality of life or business of your customer. That's gonna be a big win. And I love what you did with the mushroom coffee lady and just like, stick to your guns and go, Hey, let's, I have to ask you these questions because understanding if there's a, a, uh, client provider match is.
Almost as important or probably more important than just getting a client. So I really like that. I appreciate the time that you spent with me doing this and getting to know each other. And are you planning to be in Orlando at the huge convention this August? I am absolutely hoping to be there. Cool.
Okay. By the way, I know, uh, Ryan Lee, who you've done video work before, he's in Orlando in like two weeks or something. Yeah, March Lighting Secrets third, fourth, somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. Are you gonna be up there? I'll be there at the Light It Up expo. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Well, I appreciate it again and uh, until Orlando, thanks for being on the show.
Thank you, Sid. Have a great day. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes.
So it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter.
It's called A Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period. Paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
And scroll down and click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know. Of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
We'll see you on the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with James Riley of Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, a 13-year business owner in rural Tennessee who is pushing to break through the million-dollar mark. James shares one of the more honest and heartfelt growth stories in the series, explaining how he got into window cleaning almost by accident, bought a struggling route with barely any real customers, burned through his savings, and had to take a janitor job just to keep his family afloat while rebuilding the company from the ground up. What makes his story stand out is not just the grind, but the conviction behind it: James built the business with a long-term vision of creating one of the best places to work in his area and leaving behind something bigger than himself.
 
James and Sheila talk through the realities of scaling in a smaller market, dealing with new competitors, improving systems, and making the shift from owner-operator to actual business leader. They also get into employee retention, company culture, transparency, performance pay, coaching, and the challenge of not letting the owner become the bottleneck. Throughout the conversation, James makes it clear that his business is driven by faith, family, and service to people, and that perspective shapes everything from leadership to hiring to how he defines success. It is a strong episode for owners trying to push past a revenue ceiling while building a company with real heart.
 
Resources
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning Facebook
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning Instagram
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
 
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the Wild Journey of Entrepreneurship.
 
Let's dive in.
 
Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer, your host and contributor. Today I'm interviewing James Riley. James Riley is from Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, and he is a 13 year company that is aiming to go to, aiming to hit a million dollars this year. So if you are in that space, if you are in that realm of size of business and you're looking to break through the ceiling of a million dollars, you wanna listen to this.
 
The cool part about this interview today is this is a little bit different. We talk about operations, we talk about sales, we talk about systems, but what you're gonna find from listening to this wonderful person, James Riley, is how much heart we should all aspire to have for our own companies. He 100% wants to just.
 
His goal is to just have the best place to work. He loves providing opportunities for people. And he loves people. Um, he's a very spiritual man. Um, and you'll see how that comes through to him, really crushing it in business. This is so cool. I love this stuff. You know, we all have our own individual and unique contributions and we can play that out however we want in our own companies, and I think it's really neat to, to experience the way that.
 
We're all doing it. So be an active listener. That is my, that is my wish for you today is to be an active listener. Listen to what we can learn from James Riley, and we are just here in every single interview to help you grow. Enjoy the show. Hey listeners, this is Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast.
 
Thank you for joining us today. Um, we're gonna have a nice conversation with James Riley out of Tennessee. Uh, James owns Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, and he's been in the business for about 13 years, and, uh, just by getting a little soft opening with him before the recording today. Um, I really wanna get into James, uh, life in his 13 years.
 
He's right at that breaking the ceiling from 800,000 to a million dollars. And we wanna dive deep and see what's good, what's difficult, and what he thinks that he could have done differently so that we can help all of our listeners, um, avoid any pitfalls and, and learn from the show. So, hey, welcome James.
 
Well thanks. Thanks for having me. You are quite welcome. I'm excited for this. So we've met each other in the Mastermind and um, but we've never really gotten to know each other, so this is a great opportunity. Yeah. What better than this? Let's share with a lot of people. Yeah, sure. So James, tell us about Upper Cumberland and how you got started in the window cleaning business.
 
Okay. And all the other services that you do too, please. Okay. Yeah, sure. Well, how we got started about 13 years ago, I had a job. And I had a friend that, uh, acquired other businesses and, and everything, um, that I went to church with. And, and he approached me about window cleaning. I mean, where I'm at. Like I said, and I'm, I'm in the sticks of Tennessee.
 
I mean, we have served seven counties just to make up for not being the metro area. And two of those counties are probably one of the poorest counties. Well, anyway, he approached me and I turned him down window cleaning. I have fun at that. And well, he's very persistent. He offered me a free lunch. You know, I'm not a free Will Baptist, but I am a free Meal Baptist, so, okay.
 
I took him up on that free lunch and uh, he kind of talked me, he said, just go out with me and see what you think and anything. You know what, just go out with us and see what you think about it. And so I did that. I met him on a Saturday. Saturday morning. Really, really early. So we met about, um, I'd be at his house probably at three 30 in the morning.
 
Wow. From the get go. Okay. So we met up with people who were selling it, you know, they wanted to get an early start and, um, we went out on a route with them and, and I felt like the word gimme a commercial storefront, commercial storefront route, it was storefront routes at that time. All. And so I felt like Noah, when the Lord gave Noah a blueprint on how to build the art, he's given me one on how to, um, on this business.
 
He gave me a vision of about this business and where it's going to go. Um, so we met with him. We accepted it. I didn't have enough money to get him in, so he, he vows for me. Um, he actually bought the whole thing, so I was in debt to him. I thought this was something I could do on the weekends with my girls.
 
Okay. You know, um, to build work ethic and everything. And then, and, um, it didn't work out that way. I went to call one customers. I mean, they had a lot of ghost customers. I mean, they had about 200 something customers on, on file. We was lucky to have a hundred of them. Ah, I went to call 'em. They, we fired.
 
They had a bad reputation. Didn't know anything about it. Um, like I said, I've never bought anything like this before and he says, I'm out. I'm out of this. And. He gave me his portion. I had to pay him back. So you all heard about sids, um, eat macaroni and cheese and everything like that? Yeah. I had no money.
 
I, my savings count was empty. Nothing coming in. So, excuse my bil analogy. I ate beans and taters for, for six months. We got tired of that. We ate taters and beans. I mean, it was, it was that bad. And, um, but anyway, um. My wife was worried. Um, we got two girls at home and, you know, losing our insurance and everything, it, it was just a big mess.
 
Um, so it all worked out. I mean, I had some background in some, um, when I used to work in the dealership industry of, of, I started a big parts connection in the area and, um, from Knoxville to Nashville. Um, it's called Middle Tennessee Parks Connection. And I, you know, so I was always good at PR and. With customers and, and building that way.
 
But, um, never had my own business. Okay. And again, I just went with the, the vision the Lord's given me. We're still going through and I always tell my competitors until God stops, gimme visions, that's when I'll worry. And, but he's still, you know, I got a DD so I'm not one of those can read a book and, and, and really understand it without having to read it 10 times.
 
You know what I mean? So it's, it kind of makes it a little bit more difficult for me in the, in the business industry, um, on that end. Um, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of failures. We done. I mean, a lot of, a lot of wins and some losses of getting to this point. 13 years. Not everything is best. The struggle's real, Sheila.
 
It's real. The struggle is real is real. So, you know, I could see why my language, James, you're speaking my language. Yeah. I don't, I don't now I don't understand why businesses do not make it in the first five years. Yeah. You know, um, if you, if you're going to open up business. You can't be a know-it-all.
 
That's why, you know, that's one of the biggest rules. You can't think you have all the answers. Mm-hmm. Always. There's a scripture in the Bible says, surround yourself by men of oath. For they know the way of judgment. It's because they've been there and done that. Surround yourself by the people who's been in those positions and that's one thing I like about the huge and the Mastermind.
 
Yeah. What you're going through now, someone's already crossed that bridge. Yep. And they give you all the glue for all the tools and everything to get over that bridge easier. So 100%. Yeah. So you, you bought this business, um, which was, sounds like it was a pretty loose transaction. There was supposed to be 200 storefronts.
 
There was really only a hundred. No. Um, and how old were your daughters that you were trying to get 'em out there and teach 'em the work ethic and everything? Oh, well my oldest one's, she just turned 21 in November and my, my youngest one's getting ready. Uh, 17. So, you know, they were little girls. Yeah. They were like, yeah, 10 and 13, something like that, or Yeah.
 
Yeah. They're little girls for sure. Yeah. That is so cool. Um, do they have any, any role in the company now? Today? They do not. I mean, when we go, we have Indeed and everything. My youngest ones likes to come in here and hit the reject button. Other than that, they don't have any roles. Um, my oldest one, I think she's got her life going on in a direction and, and, and very blessed on that one.
 
But my youngest one, she's at that age where she really don't know what she wants to do. So yeah. She's 17. Yeah. We'll give her some grace. Exactly. She'll figure it out. Yep. Got a good dad, I can tell. Yeah. Um, so, okay, so what did you do? So you got this business, you started doing the storefronts. You're like, okay, this isn't even what it was supposed to be.
 
Um, so. In that first, I'm assuming there was a truck somewhere in the mix. You had a truck or, yeah. I mean, I didn't know what to expect with it. I bought this business, I mean, it came with an, an antique under pole water pit pole. Okay. It had screw on. Yep. Another little screw on. And man, it was, it was, it was tough.
 
I still have it, you know, that's an antique that's gonna be worth maybe some money in the window cleaning someday. I'll auction that thing off to. Someone probably for some big bucks, who knows. Yeah. You need to put it in the, um, the IWCA has a, um, a silent auction every year at the banquet. At the annual banquet.
 
They do not have this one, I guarantee you. Yeah. Pay big money for that, James. Yeah, it came with that and it came with the, it came with the computer, um, and a couple mops in a bucket. Okay. So it was me and a, and a Chevrolet Tracker vehicle. Okay. So let's fast forward. I mean, when did you start to, because I'm assuming, are you doing commercial still?
 
Storefronts you're doing residential Yeah. Residentials. Um, yeah, the whole nine yards. We're doing, you know, doing and, and you're doing soft washing, power washing, and I heard you say lights too. Yes. All right, so in these 13 years, you've grown it up to offer now this full menu of services, really, um, they're all very, quite complimentary to each other, especially in the access and the, the, the equipment and all that sort of thing.
 
Um, so how many trucks you have running now? What's your staff look like today? 13 years later? Right now I got five trucks and a, and a sales car. Okay. All right. Good. That's a nice fleet. Yeah. And, um, what's your sales team look like? Our sales team, I got one inbound sales person's been with us for a few years and just hired two outbound sales.
 
Okay. And these are in-house? They're in the office. They, they're in the out the outbound sales? Not as much. They're out there getting. Got it. All right. So they're doing like door to door and stuff like that. Their offices are vehicles. Okay. All right. I love it. And are they focused primarily on the storefronts and the commercial or are they also doing that for residential?
 
All the above. Yeah. Residential, they're focused on, um, residential, commercial, um, HOAs, property managers, you know, um, going through all the trade shows they can go to and, and. Um, chambers and Cool. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Okay. So, um, and then in your current market, I'm assuming that there's been growth because you said that you were in kind of like poor, poor market.
 
Um, as far as Yeah. Uh, yeah. See I'm not livelihood and all that sort of thing, so I'm assuming that there's been some growth there has. Yeah. Like I said, it, it, when I first started, it didn't even pay for myself. It was pathetic. And, um, it's grown for the, over the years. Um, like I said, now our goal this year is to get to an eight to million dollars this year.
 
Um, so we're on track for that. Great. And we with, uh, a big thank you to the, the masterminds and, and everything of that, so Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, so how about finance, like building your budget and doing all your bookkeeping and your payroll? Are you doing that, James? I do not do that. I have an office manager who does that.
 
Great. I don't dip my hand in the cookie yard. That's one of the big role I, I have as an owner. I have a salary for myself that, you know, is paid and um, and I don't dip my hands or don't need to belong. Yeah. Yep. I agree. Um, it's, it's been tricky for me. I mean, there's times where I've, you know, leveraged some profit from the company to do some things for myself.
 
Yeah. But for the most part, I'm the same. I take a salary and I leave the rest in the company and reinvest those profits, reinvest and grow it. Yeah, that's right. I want Henry four on that aspect. You know, you don't have to know everything to surround yourself. People know what they're doing on their part, so.
 
Yeah, that's right. Um, right people, right seats and they've gotta get it, want it, have the capacity to do it. They have to. Yep, absolutely. So, um, what's your, what, so how did you learn the window cleaning? I mean, did this guy that you bought it from, did he teach it to you and like, same with the other things, like the lights and the soft wash.
 
How did you learn to actually do the work? Because you told me before we came on that you really are. Fairly recently still just coming off of the truck. Right. Uh, as you said, out of the warehouse when I didn't, when I first started this, I didn't know anything about window cleaning. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, when I was a teenager, I had a full service.
 
I worked at a full service gas station. Now I had a, that's the much, that's the only time I used the squeeze you in my life. Was you The windshields? Yeah. Windshields. Yeah. And to be honest with you, I hated it because it wasn't what I was used to. You know, everybody jumps in. Oh, I love it. I didn't, I mean, I had to have it come to Jesus, me moment where God had to show me the blessings of this.
 
Mm-hmm. Because I wanted to get back from what I was known for doing, you know, and it was a humble experience because I quit a good paying job. 'cause I was already so invested in this. I had to either, either sink or swim, swim or drown. And so I chose the swimming part. And I had a take. I mean, I had a good job.
 
I'm, you got 'em to keep mind. I'm in a small community as well where everybody knows everybody. Yeah. And, um, so I quit this job and I remember my father-in-law was saying this made the dumbest mistake ever made to quit the job of benefits to do something like this. Mm-hmm. And I had, within a month from doing this, I had to get on, um, on the local school where my daughters was going to elementary school, I became a janitor.
 
Mm. Imagine the humble experience. You, you see when you're talking to your friends out there, you know, and, and they respect you for what you're doing or they see you successful and the next week you're holding the moop in the school. Yeah. You know, it's very humble experience, but I knew the vision and I knew what God had me in the store for me to do, and he still, and I'm still following it through.
 
Yeah. And I noticed in, in, when you have a business, I mean, you'll lose a lot of friends. It is, it is different. You know, they don't see things way you see 'em, you know, you don't, you have wins. It's like we, we, we said in the mastermind, you know, you have no one to celebrate the wins with you. They don't unders they don't get it.
 
Yeah. And, um, so yeah, yeah, that was, I was told that several times this was stupid. Why go after something like window cleaning? Mm-hmm. And I knew, and when I'd started this, I said, I'm make this one of the biggest and best places in this area to work at. Everyone knows who upper camera window clean is. Who, who they are.
 
And we're a household name now Okay. In this area. So I think we succeeded that. I love it. And it sounds like, um, so and is that what it is now that really keeps you invested is, um, the people? It is the mostly employees. My, you know, it's why I get up my family. Um, and, and, and it's, the employees now serve family.
 
Um, my, my focus has changed. It's not about me and, and, um, it's not about creating, you know, James Riley's window cleaning. I, I'm focusing on a bit, you know, I want this to be something after I'm dead and gone. Yeah. Um, a legacy. A legacy. Yeah, a legacy if you, if you will. Um, so it's, it's about the employees that we have here, their families.
 
Like I said, they've been with us for years. Uh, we created something here. Like I said, I've jack of all trades, a master, none. I worked around a lot of places, done a lot of things, but I took what I liked at each of those places and I put that into where this atmosphere here, and most importantly, we are a faith-based business.
 
So we do start the week off in prayer. That's one time we get everybody together, and that's first and foremost. Um, so it's a ministry as well. You know Yeah. Plant a seed water, but always, always trust God. Give the increase, whatever it is. So it is helped a lot of people going through situations and don't mistake that with a charity case.
 
'cause we're not a charity case Right. As well. So, but it's a good place, great atmosphere to work. Um, and we created something that's, and that's my why, getting up every day, creating something better for, for the employees and their families and see what we can see, what win we can achieve today. So. I love that.
 
So do you think that having faith in the business, do you think that that helps you in recruiting, um, talent, or does that make it more difficult? Because maybe you're finding people that don't have God in their heart, and maybe you're finding people that do, but what does that look like whenever you're hiring?
 
I'm just curious. I mean, it's a little bit of both, but you gotta keep in mind where I'm at. I'm, I'm in the Bible belt area. Yeah. Of, of the country. So it, it is not as hard for me as it would be for others. You know? They know. And, and that's the reputation I had. I, you know, I'm a preacher. I went from preaching every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday, revivals, evangel to this being my pulpit.
 
Okay. And that took a hard lesson to learn, where I try to get away from it and go back and behind a pulpit, but God kept bringing me back. Now, this is your pulpit. Mm-hmm. This is where I want you. So, and it is this fine line trying to, you know, to do that. So it took a lot of learn. Um, a lot of failures came in my life out trying to make that move, you know, not understanding, you know, I'm one of those I wish God just smack me in the face, like, here it is.
 
But, um, but it is, uh, it's not really been that hard to find employees like that. Um, most. For the most part, they might start off a little ruggish. Mm-hmm. Uh, my supervisor, I mean, he didn't really believe, now he's requesting prayer every Monday morning, you know? Ah, so it, it's something special to see that.
 
So, you know, it's working, you know, you know, I'm not perfect. Don't look at me, but I, I serve one who is Yeah. And that, and that's where I'm on point you at, you know, don't look at me and my faults. I'm gonna show you I'm perfect. I am all day long. You know, it'll take five minutes to know my best. 15 minutes wasn't good enough to put it that way, or 15 seconds.
 
So I love it. So really, you've taken your business, you've, 'cause if you used to be a preacher and now you've taken it into, this is the platform by which you can still share the word. Yeah. And, and do it with your employees, which really does create a lot of unity and family and teamwork and, yeah. Yeah. I love it.
 
That's a very unique story, James, and I really appreciate you sharing that. Um, and there's just so much good in that. Um, so yeah. Um, well, I wanna, I wanna, so you pretty much self-taught yourself. Are you involved with any industries? I mean. Like, and then how did you come to the huge, like how did you learn all of that and like what happened?
 
Because I know you're right there in Tennessee, so they were close by, but tell me that story. Well, how I come to here kind of on Facebook. Okay. That'd be interesting because I needed to know more. I wanted to educate myself and, and become a professional in my trade here. You know, it's hard to sell a service, uh, when you're, when you don't know much about it.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, just like walk, sending a salesman out there trying to sell something they don't know nothing about because you know you are a salesperson, um, when you're out there. So, yeah, I got hooked up with a huge, um, I think my first one was in Atlanta. Um, that was a ways back. Yeah, that was ways back. And then, then Branson and then, you know, the last few here in Nashville.
 
So I think I, without, within 13 years, I missed maybe one, one. Huge prevention. And that's during growing pains where I couldn't take off. I was still in the truck and had a, yeah. Busy, busy schedule for, for one to three people then so. Well, you and I have been to a lot of shows together. We just never really met.
 
So this is cool. I love it. I always speak to myself, you know, I'm one of those shy guys and you know, just kind of okay resort a little bit until you get to know me and then I'm just chatty Cathy, I guess. No, this is cool. 'cause I mean, yeah, 'cause now you're kind of getting yourself out there and with the podcasts and people get to know you a little bit better, so I love it.
 
Um, so, um, you are, you're kind of at the stage in the company and, um, you know, 800 to a million is what you're trying to do this year. So do you find that that's kind of like, uh, you feel like you're kind of like trying to break, just lost him.
 
Okay. Little technical difficulty there, but we're back. Um, so James, what we were talking about is, um, you being really right at that, like in the phases of business and with growth, we get to this, to the, we get to the revenue. Um, kind of benchmarks where we're having a struggle breaking through and it can take two to three years, sometimes at a certain revenue to actually,
 
and, and again, we're talking about kind of breaking through the revenue ceiling. Um, where, what are you experiencing? What's really difficult about. Getting to that million dollars or have you had any stagnation in revenue where you're trying to push through? What's it look like the last couple years?
 
Well, it's, everything's going pretty smooth. And now, you know, you got AI kind of taking over some things and you got people coming out, you know, behind the computer, what they were doing, getting into the service industry. So now it is competition, you know, having to, you know, put that on your toes. And that's where, to me, the Mastermind and, and, and, um.
 
And finding a good business coach, um, to help you succeed and, and develop something that's going, you know, to, to put a dome around you, um, to protect your investment, you know? Mm-hmm. And employees and stuff like that. So it's, that's where this get my, got myself involved in something like that really helped, you know?
 
Yeah. Without that, I, I don't, you know, I'd still be way under what I wanted to be. The competition, you know, people said that it doesn't hurt you. I beg to differ, you know? It does to me it does. Um, especially when they're in that, you know, taking some of your customers away that you want to, that's been with you for a while, you know, that, that, that hurts.
 
So, you know, we're trying to combat that right now and hasn't hurt us too much, I think because of the mastermind and, and, and the great business coach. So good. Yeah. Do you find that, um, I mean, you've been in it a while, but do you find that, um, I don't know, window cleaning, soft washing, Christmas lights, it's all become like pretty sexy, right?
 
Like yeah. So much of it on social media now and you know, these, all this so satisfying videos and all of the thing that kind of started it. Um, so kind of like everybody's getting into it now, it's really saturated the market. Do you agree with that? I, I think so. I think they make it look so easy and you're, somebody's out there, Facebook and TikTok and all that stuff to make this industry look really easy until, you know, and I've seen a lot of business try to get started in this fail.
 
Yeah. Um, you know, they're not out there anymore, but there's always another one comes up, so, uh, yeah. Yeah. One thing that, um, I, I've, I've been in my market for 26 years and Oh, wow. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's like, I kind of feel like I built it right, like I built the expectation of what customers expected to pay for professional window cleaning service, for professional house wash, for professional janitorial service, like that sort of thing.
 
And what's most frustrating to me, and I'm just gonna say it is. You know, obviously I have a company with overhead, you know, fixed and variable expenses and lots of payroll and all of that sort of thing. So that has to be built into my rate. Yeah. And again, you know, that's what we're out there fighting for every day.
 
And then now you've got so many new guys coming in and they're owner operators and bl and bless 'em. Like they're, they're coming in, they're doing the same thing that you and I did. Yeah. Like no fault. I get it. And, and it's a great entry point for, for a business. So I understand that a hundred percent.
 
What I, what I have a really hard time with is that when I've built a price expectation in a market, why, why are they coming in and trying to destroy it? Because it's like they, I don't think they realize that down the line, if they wanna grow and they wanna succeed and turn it. A company, they're gonna have to charge those rates too, and they're really kind of themselves in the foot, right?
 
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, um, I don't know if you experienced the same thing, but it's a huge conundrum to me. It's like, man, I've worked so hard and. You know, like, I know there's you, you can't price fix, you can't get 'em all in a room. You'd be like, charge this way. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but I mean, it's, it's a real thing.
 
So anyway. But what does your competition look like? Is it, is it is. It's not bad. Have a lot of companies in your market? We, we do. We have several. Um, a lot of 'em are, are mostly bucket bob type competition, but there are a few, you know, two to three that's my size and maybe little less. We have good, um, we, we help each other out quite a bit.
 
So Good. That's healthy. That is healthy competition. We work good together and it works for all of us on that end, you know. That's great because I do, they don't things they do that I don't. So, um. We kind of help each other out. I'm glad to hear that. And I have, um, several companies in my market too that, yeah, we have lunch together.
 
We call each other on the phone, we chat about business, we chat about the market, we chat about our services, and we stay in good contact because, you know, really we do, we all wanna support each other and help each other out and maintain good relationships. And at the end of the day, what's most important is that we are, we are, um.
 
You know, we are raising that standard of professionalism in the industry. Right. That is really what matters. Yeah. Um, so anybody that is doing that, they are akay with me. Yeah. Yeah. They're still in line from Jim to Wall. Um, give that world class service. Right. So, um, James, you told me that you have really good retention and this is a tricky thing.
 
Um, I. This is a really tricky thing. I what is your secret? Is treat 'em like they're humans, you know, treat 'em. Um, of course you always get those ones every now and then. That's not, you know, that's not a great fit. Um, take care of best you can. Um. You know, do what, sorry. Are, are you paying, um, hourly commission?
 
Do you have any types of, like bonus programs or anything like that? Is there any We, we do, we pay hourly, which is fixing to change. We're fixing probably go over to the production model. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm probably one of the last ones that's a business my size that does pay hourly. Um, but we, you know, but we're getting ready to go into the production model for 'em, and, and the supervisor and employees, we talked about it, and that's nothing I, that, that helps to, the employees feel like it's part of theirs as well.
 
So it's not a decision I just make here it is, you know. Mm-hmm. Um, well, the upper manager will talk about it and then we'll get with employees. We'll take their concerns and, and everything. We'll, we'll, you know, we're all, um, adults in the room and, and we're hashing through everything. And, and see what works, showing the numbers and, um, they're usually on board with, with a lot of things.
 
And if they have concerns, we'll hash it out, you know, we'll just, we'll go from A to Z on it and see what, you know, what would be the issue. Mm-hmm. So we're making them feel like they have ownership in this as well. Yeah, that's one big keys too. So yeah, it's, it's a big move. Um, we switched to performance pay.
 
I think we're on our third year of performance pay. And it really changes a lot of the dynamic in the company. And I think that it sounds really good and I know it's very popular for companies in our industry to do it. Um, I honestly have. Some, like, now that I've been through it and, um, really trying to, um, I'm trying to hold to it, but it is, it has presented a lot of challenges in the company to be honest for me.
 
Okay. Um, and you know, I say like my biggest piece of advice and for anybody listening is you gotta make sure from a finance perspective that you're offering the correct percentage. Um, that allows them to be able to still earn equally or as good as they were hourly, and that it's not too much, that even though you're fixing that labor rate at a certain percentage, that you're thinking about all the other things.
 
Like are you, when you're hiring people, are they coming on hourly and then would they be earning overtime? There's other things that can contribute. To, um, that labor rate going too high. And so even though that you fixed it at a percentage, so there's, there's, you know, quite a bit there. Um, it also opens a ton of transparency, like you said in the company of, 'cause now everybody knows your prices and everybody knows, um, you know, really how to price the jobs and all that sort of thing.
 
Um, it does make everybody really focused on the dollar. That's something that I have found that's been a downside. Um, we're service companies and service companies, you know. We go out and we serve people, right? Like that's what we do. So, um, that, that's been something too that's been quite challenging.
 
'cause I've noticed that, you know, sure. Paying hourly, they go out and oh, they wanna do their best job for Mrs. Jones and maybe that's costing the company a lot of money because they're spending too much time or something like that. So it does create more of the hustle and the efficiency I think. But, um, it, to, to keep it focused on quality at the same time, I think is crucial.
 
Yeah. Really, really crucial. Um, so, but yeah, it's, um, it's quite interesting. And I'd say the other thing that I've learned is even though people are on commission now, I think it's extremely important that you're still keeping track of time. Because if you can, if they're still clocking in and clocking out at the end of the day.
 
Then essentially at the end of each year, you can look at their all their time sheets and a total, and you can look at the revenue or the what they've earned, their gross revenue that they've earned, and you can average out to see where they fall in that equivalent of an hourly rate. And to know if you're competitive in the job market, to know that you're paying them correctly and all that sort of thing.
 
So I think it's really important to still keep track. Yeah. Of the time. At the end of the day, we're selling labor, right? Yeah. We're, we're selling time. So, um, those are just some of my personal experiences, probably, probably listeners that are going like, ah, you know, you know, now it's been great and whatnot and that's good.
 
But, um, you know, that's just my perspective and how it's been in my company. We did, um, actually roll back our commissions a little bit this year. Um, that was kind of tough, but they were too high and that's really hard when you have to pull back. So that's why I say you wanna make sure that you've really analyzed your finances and make sure that you are offering the right commission amount so that, and waging it against that hourly so you know that they're still able to, you want them to make, add and exceed what they were able to before, create the efficiency and, you know.
 
Ideally you're doing more jobs. You know, you, you do get a lot of pushback of, um, like the price of the job wasn't right. You get a lot of pushback on sales. You will. And because they feel like it should have been priced higher. And at the end of the day, like, I get that. I understand why they're concerned, right?
 
Yeah. Because that, that's, that results in how much they make. So, um, that's the other part of it is making sure that the way that your pricing jobs is standardized. And all these houses and everything are so different. It's hard to do. Oh yeah. Yes, sure is. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so tell me about your business coach.
 
You said you have a business coach. What's that look like? It's going, uh, I started back in October, um, and it's, it's going well on that. So, you know, we're just, now, I feel still at the beginning stages of some things. Um. Because it was, it was very overwhelming of the material they had so, um, to go by.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, but now I think we're getting a handle on some things to, to help us. And, and it's been a big help. It's like being a business owner. Like I said at the beginning of this, you can't go in this knowing at all. Right. So at some point you're gonna need help. Yep. And, um. Okay. And I was one of those, I looked at it like this.
 
There's a lot of business coaches out there. I mean, everyone has their own opinion on who to use, who to get, and um, of course I like to eat. So I, when I go out and take my family out somewhere to a different town or something different place, vacation, I like to go where there's a big, a lot of people are on the parking lot, so empty parking lot, because that tells me the empty parking lot.
 
Food's probably not gonna be that good. And so I go to the, I go to the one who, where it's a lot of people in there. So we go eat and nine out 10 times we have a great experience. And that's how we looked at the coach that I, that I hired, um, that coaches a lot of people in our industry and stuff and, and everyone rated about about them.
 
So I, I chose them and it's, I'm, I'm glad I did. We help. Yes. So how often do you meet with your coach? Is it once a month? Uh, we meet several times a month, you know, on round table falls and stuff like that, on, on that. And it's, um, so it's, you know, it keeps you on your toes. Yeah. Yep. It's a, it's an accountability partner, right?
 
Yeah. And you're probably like. Building out your business plan, setting your budget with them, doing all that sort of thing, checking in doing your monthly financials and what went wrong and what do we need to do? What do we need to fix? It's, is it, does it look like that? It does, yeah. And the systems, what we thought we had in place was great, but some of the systems we had was holding us back.
 
Mm-hmm. So, you know, that's another thing as well, that was, we had. Re-look at our systems. It is like looking in the mirror and, and checking your faults, right. Time to time to change some things, you know? Yeah. What's the most challenging thing for you at this point? The most challenging thing for me at this point is getting over the overwhelmness of, of, of the new systems were put in place.
 
Um, it was, that was one of the biggest challenge for me. On, on that. Um. And get myself outta the way more. Mm-hmm. And that was, that's a big challenge. Um, because like I said, it's not about me anymore. You know, of course I'm the one who, who comes up with the ideal strategies and, and, and at the end of the day, sign off on stuff.
 
But the same time, you know, that's why I created in this business. 'cause when I worked at, when I worked at places, transparency was a big deal. They didn't care about me. They, you, you were just a number to 'em. And I didn't want my employees, I don't care if it was a guy out here just picking up, grab off the parking lot.
 
I want him to know he matters. Mm-hmm. So, um, I want transparency to be a big thing in our company. You know, bring everybody together, let them know they mean something to us. I don't care. We have a hundred employees. I still wanna create that family type team atmosphere. So, um, and. But getting myself outta the way to, to keep that going has been a big hurdle.
 
Yeah. Yeah. And empowering them to do the things right? Yes. Yeah. Yep. Um, you're right, it is. Well, I, I'm assuming James, that you have very good leadership capabilities with your preaching background and. And things like that. And, um, and you definitely come with a lot of heart, so I have a feeling it's probably you're, you're well poised to lead this organization into great things.
 
I appreciate that, Sheila. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, you are welcome. So what else do you wanna chat about? Think about the listeners out there and you know, like we can kind of make it fun. I mean, what's probably one of the dumbest things or things that you said, oh man, I should have totally done different. Can you think of anything?
 
Yeah. Uh, don't commit, don't commit yourself to too much right away. Okay. What about when I first start? I got a funny story. Yeah, let's hear it. When I first, when I first started this, I mean, we were with, you know, we started this in April of 2013, and that's when I took over the reigns of this business and, and went pretty much built it from the ground up to where it is.
 
But in the, from April through that September, they had a Paul home show, and this is where all your talk hall and people in the. Places go to, to, um, see the business out there. It's not as big as it used to be, but um, but anyway, I didn't have enough money for get to be really branded like we are now. So we went out and got one of those big, you know, white post, uh, postcard posters, things to draw on it.
 
Mm-hmm. And I worked, I had my little girls helping me and I, that's when I was working sun up to sun down. I mean, I was barely get two, three hours of sleep at night. 'cause hitting, you know, getting up. I mean, guys who are first starting out, they know about this and the women starting in the week business and, um, they're out there just describing.
 
And so we put this post or this poster car together with upper coming window cleaning together. Okay. And thought it looked good. Everything looked good, but, and we're, and, and, and they had this, this, the, the, um, school superintendent coming there at this show as well with their students. And my booth is right next to the stage.
 
Where she was gonna be at. Okay. Somehow we spelt, we, we, we mispelt cleaning. And we spoke cleaning in. So we put the ING on there twice on that. So that really, but at the same time it got us a lot of business. So go figure. You're definitely different post. I don't know, but it happened. Yeah. Everybody kept going to my booth.
 
We had a college, Tennessee Tech was out there and they kept coming by our booth. I thought they're just happy to see us. Yeah, they're looking at that, looking at that poster. So it was kind of comical. So, um. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, yeah. Yeah, that's why I, I used to my advantage. That's why you need to pay me to send me some education so I can still things better.
 
So Yeah. Yeah. Hire me. I love it. So what's the vision for the company? We know where you wanna get this year in 2026, but what's your vision? The vision is still there where I want this to be the, one of the best places in our area, if not the best places to work. You know, we are going to our first job fair, competing against factories and stuff like that next month.
 
So now we offer about everything they can offer, you know, so, um, I'm excited about that. I'm, I'm just wanting to, um, and keep getting those A players to help take us to the next level. Yeah. Um, and the boy, I go through my share just to get those bodies in here just to get, be, you know, I got a lot of stories on that too.
 
I'm sure. Sure you do too. So. Yep. Um, just hiring anybody. But, um, but yeah, that's the vision is, is, is to right now, I'm still, like I said, I went from a truck to a van that was possessed to an HHR that got struck by Lightning to um. A little van and now we got these other vans. I got a warehouse, a little warehouse behind where I live at, uh, a warehouse in town for the lights.
 
But my vision now is to get away, to get everything away from my house into town. So, um, closer to where everything's at. Yeah. That's my vision now. And create a great place of, of employment, you know, that's hard. I don't have to get rich doing this. I'm fine. Okay. I'm good. All Bill being paid food to eat on the table.
 
I mean, I'm one of those, Hey, my, it's okay to be successful. It's okay to get yours here, but at the end of the day, I can't take it with me. I always tell people, you never see a U-Haul behind a hearse. So I know I can't take that stuff. I just wanna build a legacy that's going to surpass me. Love that, that, that's my vision.
 
I love it. Um, very, it's very real. Um, you can 100% do exactly what you just said. I mean, that is, um, you're already really doing it, James, right? Yeah. Window cleaning. Really window cleaning, I mean. Wow. You know? Yeah. It's not what you do. It's amazing from, I hated doing to now this, I love doing this. It, it, it's a passion of mine and every day it's just, it's a new challenge, you know?
 
I'm one of those lucky challenge, so it's, it's a, it really fits great. So what changed? Because earlier you said you hated it and then now you love it. So what was it, do you know what happened where you went like, oh wow, I actually love doing this. Yeah. I, I don't have to worry about the fear of being, um, losing my job.
 
You know, someone stabbed me in the back trying to get my, you know, position. Um, or, um, if I wanted, you know, not had to worry about working so much hours, I had to work overtime or anything, I could spend more time with my family. Right. Even though I spent a lot of time and at work. I still spend a lot of time with my family at the same time.
 
'cause everything's right here. Yeah. And my wife now, she was a casual casualty from ai. She's been at her place for about 20 years. Had a great job, never could afford her. Mm. And I told her at the beginning, or beginning of the last year, well, middle of the summer last year, I told her, I said, A year from now I'm gonna steal you away from your job.
 
You can come work for me. Well, she just lost her job about three, you know? Right. Uh, it was the day, actually, the day we went to mastermind. Okay. You know, and I was traveling up there was on that, that Tuesday before the Wednesday we met Mastermind. She lost her job due to ai and so now she's coming in here to develop those systems, which I'm ex excited about because you know, she does good.
 
That's what she does. Mm-hmm. So love it. Opened up the window of opportunity for her too. Yeah. Wow. I love it. So what is her role in the company? I'm a her president. That's, that's her role. She's, right now, she's develop her man. I want her to, um, develop the system in a couple years. I want her to train somebody to take her place.
 
And that way we can, you know, by then our, you know, we can, I wanna be a, um, I'm a beach bum. I like mountain too, but I like, I love going to the beach. I, I mean, if it wasn't for this, I probably had the lone dreadlocks, um, barefoot it in the sand, living underneath a, a p somewhere. But yeah, that's. Yeah. Well, now we know what your vision for retirement looks like.
 
Yeah. Truth is, I'll probably have those high colored black socks on with a metal thick. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's great. So true family business. I mean, you've got, and like I know, understand all your employees aren't your family and your girls aren't working in the company, but your wife is, but you are really, you've created a family through your company.
 
Yeah. Um, and that, you know, they see that of course. Yeah, it, it really does. I think it's, it's really natural for us to put so much emphasis on our employees and care about them. You know, so many of these, uh, interviews that I do, and everybody kind of says the same thing. I mean, often we're, we're paying the other guys before we pay ourself.
 
Yeah, I mean, we really do sacrifice a lot and, um. And, you know, at the same time we have benefits of being business owners and whatnot, but, um, it's, it's a lot of risk. You are definitely putting yourself out there. Like you said, it's kind of lonely up there at the top. Yep. Yeah. Lose friends. Everybody wants to tell you what to do and how to do it.
 
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, um, it takes a lot of grit and everybody listening I'm sure, knows that already 'cause they're all going through the same stuff. But I think there's so much value in hearing people's, everybody's stories because we can all relate in some way. I mean, that's why I tell listeners out there is keep your head up.
 
You know, it may be bad today, but you may have one of the biggest wins waiting on you tomorrow. Oh my gosh. I find that every single day. Like I can have some of the worst days and then the next day is like, oh my gosh, this, like, there, there's a little, little, little saying in the Bible that says, this too shall pass.
 
This too shall pass. So, um, it, it will pass. I mean, so there's a, there's may 'cause I'm one of those where my feelings on my sleeve, I mean, you can read me like a book, you know, things ain't going well. You're gonna know that by looking at me. Right. But at the same time, this too shall pass. I mean, there's a better win waiting on you for the, you know, just moments away.
 
So just keep your head up. Don't, don't throw in the white flag. And, and, um, you know, that's one thing I also tell people in the Bible, there's never a white flag to be thrown in, you know, um, just keep for, um, perseverance and endurance and, and, and just keep stride ahead. And the mountains aren't easy to climb.
 
You know? Yeah. Storms ain't easy to go through, but you can get through 'em. Meaning giving up is not even an option. No, no. It's not even option. Don't quit. Yeah. Yeah. I got a family that, that, that, that relies on me, so it's not an option for me. Yep. You know, so this is, I got employees that rely on me. It's not an option at this point, so.
 
Yep. Well, hey, this has been very meaningful. I really appreciate the conversation. I, I, I love stuff like this and so I hope our, I hope our listeners do too. And, um, I wish you the best, James. I can't wait to see you in person now again. Alright. Yeah. I'm gonna track your, uh, your revenue goal for 2026 and I'm gonna see where you're at in fourth quarter and I hope that you're pushing a million.
 
I hope so too. Yeah, hope so too, Sheila. I look forward to seeing what that looks like for you. And again, thank you so much and thanks to all of our listeners today. All is well. We appreciate you taking the time and, and inviting me to this, to the huge, um, podcast here. I appreciate it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I enjoy every minute, so we have a great community here and we're just wanting to share.
 
We just wanna share, share each other's, each other's trials and tribulations and everything that we're learning along the way. 'cause we can help each other out. Yeah. We're all in this, I feel like even though we don't know each other personally, everything, but I feel like at the same time we're all in this together.
 
We are 100%. Yeah. Raising the standards. Right, exactly. I love it. All right, thanks James. Thanks listeners for joining us today. Signing off. Alright, take care. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
 
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