Huge Transformations

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with Lev Golosov, founder of Garage Floor Masters, to talk about what it really takes to build a successful home service business from nothing. Lev immigrated from Russia, started in pressure washing with no experience, and eventually grew into multiple service lines, multiple locations, and a more systemized business built around people, persistence, and constant improvement.
This conversation is especially valuable for home service owners who are still in the messy middle of growth. Lev shares lessons from losing $30,000 worth of equipment before Garage Floor Masters ever really got off the ground, why he believes taking care of employees comes before taking care of customers, and how referral systems, reviews, Google, yard signs, and multiple marketing touches all work together. Sid and Lev also talk about AI, entrepreneurship, immigrant mindset, financial discipline, and why the people who win in business are usually the ones who refuse to quit.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider Newsletter Signup
The Huge Insider Podcast Action Guide
The Huge Mastermind Info Page
Facebook Group
The Huge Convention
Garage Floor Masters
Garage Floor Masters Facebook
The Dream Manager by Matthew Kelly
 
Transcript:
 
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in. The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders. And every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am really glad to see you here. Today's gonna be fun, whereas they all are, but this is really cool because we get to interview a good friend of mine. His name is Lev Golo. Lev in Russian means lion. So you're gonna meet my friend, Lev the Lion. We've known each other for about six years, and currently we're in the same. Mastermind together, the huge Mastermind, which is a mastermind that is, that is ideally situated for home service business owners that are at or above that $1 million threshold in annual revenue and want to five x 10 x their business in the next few years. And it's a very. Deliberate Mastermind. It's not just a bunch of guys sharing ideas, but there's a curriculum. We've got leaders and uh, co-host or owners that have grown businesses to. 2 million, 5 million, 40 million. And if you are on a growth trajectory or you want to grow and you feel stuck, you gotta check out the huge mastermind because getting in the room with like-minded business builders that are all at seven figures, eight figures and above, like if you wanna grow to that point, that's the room you need to be in. So with that, let's talk about Lev. Lev and I have known each other for six years. He immigrated from Russia. Over a decade ago and started a home service business with no experience, no money, and no connections. It now operates a almost completely automated multi seven figure business in Knoxville, Tennessee, also Atlanta, Georgia, and they're soon to open a third location. I don't think it's public yet, so I won't say it. You know, love is quiet, spoken, and very modest. But if you listen carefully, you're gonna get nuggets and takeaways and wisdom that could shave years off your learning curve as a small business owner. With that, everything that we talk about, if there all the resources that we mention, um, as well as the huge mastermind, all of that's gonna be in the show notes. You can just poke and click and hit the resource page so you can get all the links. And we made it easy for you. There's a tunnel learning here. Enjoy the conversation with my friend Lev, Lev the Lion. Hey everyone, it's Sid with the Huge Transformation Podcast, and I have my good friend Lev Golo on as a guest today for, to interview. And I'm really excited because Lev, um, we were chatting about something recently by text, and you sent me a photo from six years ago. It was at Responsive Con in Arizona in February of 2000, and I always refer to that event as the day before the world changed. It was the last live event that I was at before COVID hit and everything shut down. Yeah, so it was kind of a momentous. Time and I was really glad you reminded me. Lev has, uh, you, he's got a couple businesses. He's got garage floor masters we're gonna talk about a lot, and also a power washing business out of Knoxville, Tennessee with a partner. And you've been at it for a good while. Everybody, welcome. Lev. Lev, thank you for being here. How are you this afternoon? Hey Syd. Thank you so much. I am honored to be on your podcast. Thank you for inviting me. I'm doing good. Appreciate. Yeah. Everything you said is correct. We met first time, 2020 of, uh, February in Phoenix, Arizona. It was, it was a beautiful, beautiful time, beautiful day. I met a lot of good people, including you. Yeah. Thank you. And that was, it was a ton of fun, um, in a good event. But here, here's what I would like to ask you is like, at that time, put yourself back six years ago where at that conference you have. I don't know how long you'd been in business at the time, but Right. Then you had the power wash business and that was all correct. Yes. Kind of describe it to me, like where were you in business six years ago? What were your, your biggest challenges? How big was your business? Um, what things were you working on? Just kind of paint a picture for everybody. Yes. Um, I actually, me and my partner Eugene, we just started, uh, year prior. 2019 officially we opened in September of 2019. When we start our pressure washing business, we had zero knowledge. Um, I didn't even know that that kind of service exists at this kind of business. So we started doing, you know, old school, grabbing the wand and blasting the all that PSI on a siding and, um. After the first job, which was awful, right? I, I, I start thinking like, this is not correct. Like, how will people make money if we spend two of us with ladder and one pressure washer? It took us like, I don't know, uh, three hours to do one side of the house and how people make that money, you know? And client was asking very cheap, like $150 or something. So then we start. From get go. That was a good experience. It's actually turning point for me. I would say that, uh, I realized that running business is not just, you know, physically running around, um, doing things with your hands. It's about gaining knowledge and, um, you know, becoming better and improve yourself. So that's why same year, 2019, we decided to go to, um, there was another training. At Nashville. Uh, pressure washing training was absolutely free, but back then we could not afford anything else. Mm-hmm. And it was amazing and we were amazed how, uh, what people were talking, uh, about pressure washing and, uh, you know, they make so much money. Back then, it was like a lot of money for us. First time we met, uh, Rob Anderson, he was a speaker there and, uh, also Pat Clark was there. So, and that's where we. You know, took a journey of learning, um, not working on business, but, uh, not working in the business, but working on it. So, and, uh, soon as I learned there's other places that you can go out and, uh, learned from experienced guys. Um, I, you know, jumped on it, and that's where I first time I met you in February, that following year in, uh, Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah. So when, when, uh, you and your partner Eugene first started, what was your, what was your biggest goal? Like when you just, you, you guys spent, you know, three hours on one side of the house. What was your biggest goal at that time? So at that time, it was no goal. Uh, we would just, okay, let's try, let's start. Uh, that was the, the whole, the, the biggest goal was to start it and then, uh, when. We went to Nashville training when people were talking that, oh, they do a million in revenue per year. And that's where our, you know, reality shattered basically saying, oh, by doing pressure washing you can do that much so, and um, that's was our first financial goal is, uh, million dollars in revenue. Yeah. Okay, good. And you answered my next question was like, after you met Rob and, and Pat Clark and listened to, you know, met somebody who is further just, they're not smarter, they're just further down the road and you go, oh, here's an opportunity that you didn't see. So at that point then you started you getting hungry and looking for more education to, to shorten your learning curve, right? Yeah. Then, um, did, did you guys get to that seven figure mark in that business? I know you, you added another business and shifted a few years down the road. Yes. Uh, not in pressure washing, but because as soon as we, you know, start growing learning, we start adding new services and, and the same year we just added, uh, Christmas slides. Okay. And, um. Because the winter time here for us in Knoxville is not the best for pressure washing. So that's why we, you know, instead of staying at home, you know, for Christmas season, we're like, okay, we need to do something else and, uh, let's figure out what we can do. And then we learn about Christmas lights and that's when we took another training, went to Atlanta, and, um, with, uh. Well, I forgot the name of the Chris Christmas industry training. Um, but anyways, we've got that training from them and that was another eye-opening that for that short period of time, people make as much as. People do throughout the year, right? Yeah. And, and we're like, okay, that's different numbers. There's different interesting goals. And that's how we jumped on it. And we slowly combining multiple services basically. Yeah. We, we hit our, our, our goal That's, yeah, to answer that question, but not in necessarily just brush washing industry here. Sure. And then when did you start the garage floor coating business? The epoxy polys. Bardic. You have garage floor masters? Yeah. Our garage floor masters business. We started in, uh, 2022. No, actually we started 2021, but we had very rough start. I will, I'll tell you about that. Uh, so I, I wanna, I remember the story. I want to hear it again. Yes. We'll make a big point here. Yeah, uh, there's a lot of good learning points in that story, but anyways, soon as uh, we started, we decided to do, uh, our new journey, uh, in garage floor coding business. Uh, we opened up company garage floor, masters, and first thing we did a thing that was a not very smart move. Um, we bought a lot of equipment. From the get go. So we bought equipment, grinder, tra uh, trailer. We've got all the vacuums and all the necessary tools and, and as soon as we bought it, all our trailer was stolen with all the equipment in it. So we were like negative 30,000 right away from the, from the get go. Yeah. And because of that we had to pause it, this business for a year. We did few jobs because we already sold them. Uh, we had to deal with the rental equipment, which is actually a smart thing to do, uh, in the beginning because the equipment's pretty expensive. Yeah. And especially now in the then year after we went full blast, you know, we bought more equipment. We already had more sales on, on our books, so. That was a rough start, but, um, a lot of things, uh, you learn on the way. Yeah. So a lot of people with a setback like that, it's like, we haven't made any money yet. We haven't done a job. We've invested heavily 30, 40 grand and then. It stolen. People would just go, forget it. I'm gonna get a job at Costco. I quit. Yeah. What, I mean, you said you waited a year, but what were, how was it that you and your partner were so determined? You go like, I, we are not gonna quit this thing? I don't think there is, uh, one answer to it. And overall, I think it all comes to, um. Entrepreneurship and the path that you choose. I, the p uh, people who've been in business, uh, as an entrepreneurs for, uh, many years, they'll, they'll probably tell you the same thing, that if tomorrow I'll lose everything, uh, you know, it's not gonna take me long to come back to where I am right now because it just, you, you learn a lot. So I'm, I'm very grateful. Uh, to be, uh, on this journey, not just for the sake of money, but there's so much knowledge you gain as a human as well, you know, as a human being, how to be in society, you know, how be, um, focused and persuasive and all other good stuff. And, um, I guess that's the, that's the reason why we just, you know, continued because we already took that journey and there's no way back, you know? Yeah, you can always, you, you can always work for someone. There's a plenty of jobs. True. And even when people said there is no jobs, you know, that's a lie. It's, there's no jobs that you want to do. But there is a lot of jobs. Let me ask you this as a sidebar, like Yeah, because I, I've heard it often and, uh, without dipping into like the age of AI and robots, but like the world we live in now, in the past few years, people are like, there's no jobs. There's no work. I can't drive from our warehouse to my house without seeing opportunity. Yeah. I'm like that building needs to be painted. The hospital here needs to be painted so bad, like, oh, for sure. They have to get it done. Who's gonna do it? I mean. Things in people's yards. A broken mailbox. They're somebody, one of our neighbors, we had a big windstorm two months ago. Bunch of trees got blown over, uh, the big, um, pine trees here. They don't come uprooted. They break like halfway up and then you've got a big chunk. I'm like, I see these lying around in people's yards. I'm like, there's an opportunity. Rent a chainsaw, knock on a door or do it the other way. Sell it, then get the equipment and, uh. Just make it happen. So do you see the world that way now, like eyes of opportunity? Absolutely. Yes. Uh, I think my partners don't like me very much for that because I, I'm a dreamer in a, in a lot of ways and always something new comes to me and like. Throwing those ideas and they were like just rolling their eyes saying like, okay, here we go again. New business reopening. Yeah. So, no. Yes, I, I definitely do see opportunity everywhere. And with that, when, when you mentioned about ai, new technology, uh, this is, I look at it as a, um. Having, uh, additional challenge for you so you can adjust to it. It's like, um, when you have in your market a competition, right? You only become better when you have a competition, when you compete against someone. And if you only want in a market, there's no new waste for you. Everything's smooth. Everyone know. Know about you. There's no one else. Uh, but when the competition comes in, you start thinking about new ideas, new approaches, so you become better. Mm-hmm. So good, healthy, you know, um, competition's always good and that's what I look at. AI and new technology. Okay, there's a new thing comes out, what are you gonna do? You're gonna complain about it or you're gonna try to adjust and be part of it or benefit out of it, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what are some of the ways that, and I'm stepping ahead, but what are some of the areas that you guys have started to implement and utilize AI or ways that you want to use AI in your, is it yours? Like yours is a hands on physical business. Yeah. You sell a job, you've gotta get in there, grind a floor, put down the coating. Somebody's gotta get their hands really dirty, but there's a lot of room for ai. So how do you use it now? Um, um, honestly, we using on a minimal level, but, uh, it does help a lot because even though this is, you know, it's called blue, blue color type of business that, uh, you, you know, go do hands-on type of stuff, um, the business still business, you know, you still have to build your systems. You still have to, uh, uh, create a smooth work environment and, um. To improve yourself again in your company. So that's where the help of AI comes in, you know, um, checklists and, and, uh, protocols and stuff like that. It just, you don't, you don't rely on it completely. You just use your knowledge to, um, to help with putting it together basically. Yeah. So, um, basic stuff we use, you know, chat, GPT and, uh, Claude. Um. Uh, some other gener, uh, picture generating stuff that, you know, helps, um, with booklets and, and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. So we use, um, I use a. I just, I fondly call it the ten eighty ten process. Okay. Like that, where I use an LLM to, if I've got an idea or a task or project that needs to be done, I'll spend 10% of the energy, or like the first 10% is me defining it and defining a prompt, and really getting it as crystal clear as I can. Then the next 80% is ai, like putting out a, you know, a result Then. The last 10% is I review it, maybe reprompt it, or just, you know, take it all and then edit it, you know, re rewrite, make sure it's accurate. But it enabled me to, you know, to get projects complete that I've had for years. Like a lot of it's SOPs Yeah. Or checklists that I just, I get bogged down in the details. I'm, I'm a visionary guy like you. I don't like to do all the details. I'm like, make this happen. Yeah. But somebody has to make it happen now. It's my buddy Chad. Chad. Yes, that's true. Uh, it's, it's actually a lot of helpful Yeah. Uh, helpful stuff, man. I know a lot of people against all AI things, you know, but you take best out of it. That's, that's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Alright, so let's, I'm gonna go way back in time, then we're gonna come back to the present. So, back in. So you immigrated from Russia and the Village was the name of the town you're from? Uh, Yosh, Ola City, Yosh, Ola. But my parents, they're from Village. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's a very small town, uh, Republic and Small Town city. Uh, Yosh, Ola, size of Knoxville. Uh, a population probably, um, 300. Thousand. No more than that. Maybe more right now, but it's very small town. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, when you first told me that, I was like, I'm gonna look this, I looked on, on Google Maps to find, 'cause I, I was like, that's gotta be central Russia somewhere. And it's like, is it 600, 800 miles east of Moscow? It's a ways, it's 600, 600 miles from Moscow. Yeah. East. Yeah. But it's still Western Russia. It's not even in the center. Exactly. That's what I was reminded. Russia is like, is it 2200 miles east to west or something? God, it's a giant country. It is, yes. Uh, well, if you look at the whole map, yes, we are, um, very close to two big cities, the capital, um, but it's still 600 miles away, you know, from my, from the capital. Yeah. So, um, one of the first times we had a real conversation, we were having a cigar at the standard in Nashville, Tennessee, and we're talking about when you came here and, and you made a statement that it didn't surprise me, but it wasn't something that I think about because race here in the States, you know, capitalism is part of the whole drill. And you mentioned that you're the only crazy person in your family. You didn't say it like this, but that you. Believed in you. You like, you were optimistic and wanted to be an entrepreneur, and literally there was no one in your family, your background or even that you knew from your, your home, uh, city that thought that way. They were like, basically if you put it here in America, they would go get a job at the post office. Just get a good job and, and don't be crazy, and you responded. That's the same, same thing, yes. Uh, well, I would not say the whole city like this, but, uh, my surrounding for sure, the family, uh, my family, they, they, there's no entrepreneurs in my family. I would say I'm a first one. And, um, that's very standard mentality, especially from post-Soviet, uh, union countries where you study well, um. Be a good person and get a job, create a family, you know, die happily. So, uh, the, that because they relied on the government, you know, the system was built that way. And, um, when. I was born in Russia, I was not born in Soviet Union. And there's a lot of gates were open of, you know, opportunities and, uh, mentality still stayed the same for the previous generation, but the new generation of, um, us, me, uh, we had opportunity to take. So, um, I guess it's the fact that I had this, you know, dreamer mentality that helped me to actually. Uh, you know, be different, break out. And I'm the only one from my, uh, graduation year who moved to Moscow, the biggest city by myself. Mm-hmm. Um, to study. I went to university, I graduated and then, uh, I saw the opportunity to, um, chase American Dream, and that's how I came here. Yeah. Yeah. And did, um, hold on. I have to make a change. Look at that. My screen froze. Okay. I'm back. Um, coming to the United States and you ended up in Tennessee, in eastern Tennessee, in Knoxville, in that area, as being a, a Russian immigrant, what were the advantages? What were the disadvantages in, you know, sort of the, the American South starting a business? Advantages, I would say that I had something to compare to. Um, when you live, you, when you are in the same pond, you grew up and all you know is your surrounding your reality. But when you coming from different reality and you see, um, what opportunities you didn't have back there. And, and you do have it in here, you just, uh, see the world differently. Uh, you, you just start starting asking questions, why people don't take that opportunity, why people don't do this. And I think that is the advantage. So I, that I could compare. Disadvantage is obviously knowing the language and um, adjusting to culture. Well, communication side of it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like from, like from a sales or business perspective, it helped you to stand out in the marketplace? I mean, it'd be easy for a customer to go, you know, that Russian guy rather than just maybe Yeah, maybe, yeah. In some places, yeah. Because people were, um, interested in the people in South, uh, where, where I'm at in Knoxville, Tennessee, um, very. Uh, they, they're very interested in other people. So, and, um, that gave them opportunity, um, to learn something from about Russia too through, through me. And, uh, so that was one of the points. Maybe the, they helped me to win the job as a salesperson. Yeah. Yeah. All right, we'll come back to present day. This, um, so garage floor masters, you guys, you have, you operate in two locations, right? Yes. Okay. So what are I want to ask you about, what were some of the, in your, your growth in your journey from zero to solid seven figures, multiple, uh, services. Like what were some of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome to as you grew your business? Um, it's, uh, it's learning the importance of, uh, delivering the service that, uh. You, you don't just do a good job. So, because that should be your core thing that you do. If you do something, you do it good, right? Otherwise don't do it at all. But the challenge was to what other values that we can deliver to our clients, what is the matter to them? Um, so they will choose us or, or someone else. And that part, it was challenging to learn. And, um, systemize it. Yeah. Did you, like, was it a challenge to learn or understand that maybe you are not, your customers like to see it through the customer's eyes that Yes. Rather than through your own eyes? That's true. And, um, I tell my guys all the time, uh, you know, even, even I am not my own customer, the, the services that we offer, I cannot afford myself so. Yeah. And, and that's why it was also, you know, a challenge for us to shift that mindset about, oh, in the beginning you're trying to give an answer for your customer, saying like, oh, he probably doesn't need that. Oh, he pro it is gonna be, probably gonna be too expensive for him. But when you shift from that mindset where you, like, like you mentioned, you're not your own customer, then it's clear. Yes. What was, uh, it's gotta be challenging to operate two locations. What's, what's one of the key factors or challenges that you had to overcome to operate in two places? It's, uh, people, we're still in the home service industry. Well, in the service industry, in the trade business, uh, all, everything comes down to people. So you do have to have good, um, relationships and, uh, good approach. To make sure, take care of your people, uh, your employees, your management, uh, make sure they in, they have all the tools that they need in order to deliver that service. And you are always there to support. So our biggest thing is, was to, and still is to learn it. How to be better in, uh, supporting. Yeah. Have you, um. Red or do you guys use the concepts from the book? Um, dream Manager, are you familiar with that? Uh, no. I didn't get to that book yet. Okay. I did not. It's funny, someone gave me a copy. It sat on my bookcase for two years. I never opened it. I was like, oh, that sounds like gr great book. It's this, it's tiny. I mean it's thin. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, one day I was on a flight to Arizona. I'm like, I'm gonna take that book. I bet I can read it on one flight. I did. And it, I was like, oh my God, if I had read this two years ago, and it was, but it, it, in summary, it was what you were saying, it's like, how can I support my employees? How can I do more for them and take care of them? Because if you take care of them, they'll want to perform better, but also they stay longer and it builds, you know, a depth of culture. Um. And you know, in a lot of home service businesses, like we are in window cleaning, you've been in power washing and still are. And it's like, I worked so hard for so long with the idea that I was gonna find the right employees that would stay with me forever or 10 years, you know? And the dream manager, the company that they're using it as example is janitorial. And they said, if you can get people to stay on average three years, you can build a company. And I was like, oh. I, I was trying for, you know, to knock every ball over the fence instead of just hitting a single. Mm-hmm. And that shift in perspective end up now we have, we have retention that we've never experienced, but for four years we haven't lost a, an employee. That's, that's amazing. Uh, what I wanted to say that, um, from the beginning we, um. I placed our three focuses in a certain order, and I always tell, always tell my employees about it. So the first. Uh, it's our employees. It's you guys that we wanna make sure you're happy, you know, you have all the necessary tools to do the job that we do. Second is our customers, you know, because that's who gives us money and, um, we wanna make sure they happy as well. And the third place is money because if we reach the first two steps properly, uh, then money will come. Yeah, so, and that's why, you know, the first place our employees, because customers come and go. Uh, you know, but you keep your employees in the house close to you. So that's why they are focused, number one, for sure. So, um, I don't know if you spent, like, I think most people spend too much time on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. I, myself included, but I see a lot of young guys, excuse me. See a lot of young, young men particularly that have started a power wash business or they started a window cleaning business and they're talking about door knocking, or they're like, I've gotta, you know, earn my first $5,000, and they're just young and hustling. And trying to make it happen, but really don't have any experience. But they're video documenting the whole thing and broadcasting it, which is kinda interesting. What would your advice be to, you got a couple young guys, two guys, they're in college and they're like, dude, are we gonna work at Jimmy John's again this summer? And the one's like, I saw this video about starting power washing business. Let's do that. What's your advice for the young guys that start up that actually say, this is a viable, like this could be a business. What are you gonna tell 'em? 'cause now you're the wise man. You've got the experience wise, man, it's a big stretch, but have some experience for sure. But, but biggest thing, well, I just wanted to say that I, yes I do, um, watch some social media videos, shorts, um, and I see those guys as well and actually makes me. You know, exciting and, and happy because I, I still remember that drive because when you grow, you get to the point where you don't have that, uh, excitement. I would say that to, you know, selling the job the first job, or, you know, finishing it to, to pleasing, uh, level of your customer, right. And, um. And it's so exciting to watch when they're like so happy that, oh, I did 5,000, I did 10,000. It's great. And, um, well, the, I guess the. What I would say that clo uh, look close to your finances. That's the number one. Whatever you sell, this is not go, it does not go to your pocket. There's Uncle Sam. There is, uh, other expenses that you have that you wanna make sure you lay them out properly. That's the number one rule I would say your finances. Which I, I still, we still struggle with that because, you know, it's not easy thing to do. Um, second I, and the biggest thing I would say, don't give up. That's the, that's what I would say. Because like you mentioned earlier, you know, uh, when we, we, we, when we had our rough start with our pressure, uh, our garage floor coating business, um, we could have just said, okay, that's it. It's not gonna work out. Um, but if you have that drive, keep it lit and, um, keep grinding, keep going because it doesn't matter who's on top right now. Um, person who wins, it's the last man, the last person standing that who wins. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, and you, you touched on this as you, um, as you grow and you become more successful, it's easy to get comfortable. Yeah, not, not have that fire anymore. What do you do to stay excited about your business? Oh, I, I don't need anything because like I, I said earlier, I have a lot of ideas that come in my head where throughout the journey, we, we made so many changes and I, I taught myself like, if nothing changes, so that. Uh, that means we are losing. So we always have to, we also, we always have to do something in some improvement in all the levels. You know, there's, you always look over the systems that you have, you try to improve them. Um, if everything works, that means something's not working. That's interesting. Yeah. You need to look a little deeper. What are some of the, um. Let, let me ask you for some practical tools or strategies that you use in business that's helped you succeed, that you can share with other people. Start with, with marketing. What are some of the tools or strategies you guys use to market and sell your services that have been effective or like have a really good ROI? Well, marketing's, um. It's very complicated subject. I would say I'm not an expert in marketing. I did not study for it. Just disclaimer, you know, uh, what I, what I'm saying is just my personal experience and thoughts. Don't take it as a, as a rule, but, um, what I think it's, it's very deep, uh, strategies that you have to have for each business that you have. If so, first of all, you have to look at what kind of business you have. What kind of services you offer, and this is how you're gonna determine who would be your ideal customer. Mm-hmm. Uh, then you're gonna search for that ideal customer. So the person who will willingly give you money for the service that you offer, and you build your marketing around that avatar. And, um, depending on the business in service, there's different. In my opinion, different approaches to marketing. So I'll give you an example with pressure washing for, uh, it's very low, small ticket type of service, right? Usually around 500 to a thousand dollars, uh, average ticket. Yeah. Uh, depending where you are, of course. And, uh, so we have to see who is your avatar. The people who can afford that. And for that price, uh, you are obviously gonna look for people who own the house. They don't rent it. Yeah. And then you're gonna look on the income, and income is in this type level of business. It doesn't have to be big because ticket is not, is is large. So, and, uh. In the, on the marketing side, like on social media for example, that's probably good approach in a, a get go. So we use the social media like Facebook, Instagram, where people can see and visualize act of, uh, service that you offer. You know, they see before and after dirty house, clean house, and, um. That is pleasing for them and they also know why you're doing it. They know the reason why it needs to be done. So, uh, that would be your probably ideal customer over there. But, uh, the biggest thing about marketing there, there is no, um, one technique or structure of marketing exists. So the marketing works when you try all of it. If you do only one thing, uh, it doesn't mean, uh, it's gonna, you're gonna be the, uh, it doesn't mean it's gonna take your business to the next level. Marketing works only when you use multiple touches. Yeah. But some of them, some directions, you know, some streams are way better than others, depending on the business. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We, how do you track your. Your marketing, do you use a, a tool for that, whether it's responsib bit or something else? Uh, we used to work with Responsib bit for our pressure washing business, but now, right now we, we work with agency. Okay. Okay. And currently what marketing channel has the, has the best ROI for your, for garage floor Masters? For garage floor Masters right now, or Google. Google works the best. Google. PPC. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Um, we have a team meeting for our company every Monday and Wednesday. Monday is all review last week. What are your wins? Let's look ahead for this week, how are we gonna succeed? And then Wednesday is a little more granular and we'll, we'll, uh, we'll do role play practice, so like how to ask for upsell, things like that. And we, uh, put um. Responsible bid the pie chart on the big screen and just showed 'em, like for our residential customers over the last 30 days, this is where they came from. It was Google search, existing customers, referrals, that, that, that all the way around and was surprised to see that dollar for dollar our best. It wasn't our biggest performing, um, channel, but our best performing channel as far as cost to acquire and ticket size. Was lawn signs. Mm-hmm. Everything we do with people that see a lawn sign, spend more money and have a higher closing rate than almost anything we do. Anything but a referral. It's the only one that was better. Yeah. And I was, I was like, well, I can't believe that. I just, I I was gonna stop putting out lawn signs. 'cause they're a headache. Yes. They're a, they're a valuable headache. I was like, hell yeah. We're gonna double down on this. Yeah. Uh, what, uh, we found that multiple touch marketing, uh, always works the best when you don't just focus on one thing. Again, like I said, uh, you, you do online, Google. Social media, that's what everyone do. There's a lot of agencies to, to work with. Mm-hmm. Um, but it does not mean if you pay someone, that means you can sit back and relax and wait for all those leads coming in. So at the same time, you do other stuff like loan signs or yard signs, uh, you do flyers. Um, you, you ask for a referral. You have to have a referral system because that's. The cheapest and, uh, op cheapest marketing. Yeah. When you did a good job, they can offer, uh, they can recommend you to their friend or family. Um, and you don't pay for it, you know? You already did. And this client basically pays for your future customer marketing. Yeah. Yeah. What's, can you describe your, uh, referral marketing program? Like, do you have a system for it? For, yes. Um, we do offer dollar amount for every client that we book from this person. Yeah. So it's pretty simple. Um, but it's effective. It works. People, people like it. And, um. And we also, uh, have some neighborhood, um, packages, you know, when multiple people do at the same time. Uh, but in the referral side, it's, it's pretty simple as dollar amount straightforward. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you, um, only ask for referral after the work is done or before? I mean, do you have that multiple ask stages and things like that set up? Uh, we have, yeah, we ask probably about. Six, five or six time. Yeah. Um, we do you, do you want me tell you all the steps that we take? Yeah. I think it'd be helpful for, for a lot of people listening. Yep. So referral and review. This is, uh, one package that what we ask of our customers, because reviews, it's part of the marketing as well, that helps your, um, Google positioning go up. That Google sees your company very active, uh, when you have, when you actively collect those reviews. And, uh, it's very interesting that I found out about it, that, uh, if you put like, uh. A hundred review, you, you work hard and you did like a hundred reviews. Mm-hmm. And then you, you think, okay, that's it. Let's, let's stop. Um, but the truth is that you'll constantly have to get those reviews. So the Google sees that your account is active. Active, and, uh. The people interested in it. So that's why, uh, Google will start, continue pushing you up. So, um, but what you see sometimes when there's big companies that they gain their a thousand reviews and they don't worry about it no more because they're the biggest, they're the, you know, best on the market. That's what, uh, how they present themselves and yes. That part also helps, but constant, uh, gaining those reviews is very important for your positioning. And, um, and it's not me talking as a experts. Uh, so coming back to referral and review package, um, when customer calls, when we book the job, we. Tell them that what is our goal? Our goal is to perform well. So they will be so happy that they can easily recommend us to their friends, families, or uh, coworkers. Yeah. So that is already the first mentioning that gets in their brain and, um. Helps them to actually do something about later on. Uh, the second time when our, um, technicians come out to a job site before they actually start work, they talk about referral and review, um, as well. Same script, nothing, nothing complicated. They would say, well, today my job is to perform my best, so you'll be so happy that you can recommend this to someone else. And leave as a five star review and, um, at the end they do ask it again. So it's when they happy they saw the result, that's the best time. It's a hot client of yours who's ready to do anything to make you happy. Yeah, because they're so happy. And, uh, you ask for a referral review. And we do have, uh, multiple systems for that. Either automatically sends the link after the job is completed through our CRM system or, um. We also have, uh, hands on flyers with the QR code where they can scan right away in front of you. Okay? Uh, there is a aggressive approaches that we have, uh, when we make them do it in front of you. Uh, okay. This is not for everyone, and I'm not saying that's the what you have to do, but that's when you. Can read people and how they act with you, that's when you can be that way as well. So it's, it's, um, you know, mirroring, uh, psych psychological approach as well. So, and yeah, that's why we have the, uh, little cards with QR code on it so they can scan it and give you your review right away. Yeah. And, uh. After we finished, and if you still didn't get the review or referral, we have same using the, uh, follow-up system where, um, either through your CRM or there's other software that you can use, that they will send message, text message, or an email asking for referral and review. Uh, three more times. Throughout the life, customer life. So, and that's what helps us to gain reviews. Plus we give some bonuses, cash bonuses for our technicians for getting five star review. Yeah, them do, doing good job. And um, so that motivates them as well. And for clients. We also obviously mentioned that if one of your friends will, uh, book a job with us, um, then. You'll get the cash bonus as well. Yeah, no, that's good. It's good to, I mean, you've, you've got to have anything that you want to succeed. You can't just rely on luck and what you just described as a system that when you do it, when your team does it, when your techs do it results in longevity more, work better for the business, better for your technician, better for more customers. I, I really love that. So while we wrap up, um. You've already given some really great advice. Number one was know your finances because that no matter how good of a salesperson or technician or anything else you are, if you don't do your money right, you, it's hard to succeed. And you talked about how. Focus you are on taking care of your employees so that they're happy. Um, what's another piece of advice? What's the advice you would give young love starting out? Because now you know how it can turn out and like to, I dunno, what's, what's the advice you'd give to your younger self or to the, the younger guys? They've got a couple of employees. Maybe they're, you know, you know that zone where it just, it feels like you should be succeeding. You hired people, but it only feels like there's more work. Um, put, uh, give yourself, um, higher goals, I would say. So you have to have that aim to, you know, to become better and stronger. Uh, because the building business, a lot of times, uh, people see it just, uh, um. It's, uh, people see it about money, right? I mean, we all do it for money at the end, for sure. But you wanna make sure that you don't become slave of your business and, um, you, you build a business. So you can easily either sell it or give it in the hands of management. And it will still work for you, right? So I would say focus on the systemizing everything and don't perfect it. Just start, you know, start making it. Just use it. Whatever you have already is a system, but put it on a paper and make sure you follow it. I would say that that's it. There's a lot of advices, you know, we can talk about and different levels, but. That one. I would say the what? I see the major stuff. Yeah. Alright, good, good. And that. The last thing, I know a lot of, I've experienced it, I'm sure you have, but I want to ask. A lot of times when someone says, I'm gonna go in business for myself, they're friends or family is like, you are crazy. Just get a job. But a few years down the road when you start seeing success, they turn around and go, oh, you're so lucky. You're so lucky without seeing the blood, sweat, and tears. Have you experienced that? Um, not in a direct way like you pictured it, but every I think everyone experienced that, but, uh, a lot of times people, you know, the biggest, uh, nonbelievers, it's your close people that your family. Right. You probably heard that too. That Yeah. And they don't do it because of out of hate. They do it because, uh, they worry about you that you're gonna fail. You know, like a parent doesn't want your child to fail. And, uh, that's why they say just, just don't do it. You know, it's gonna be a lot of headache. Yeah. Yeah. We did experience that. Yes. Okay. They go play it safe, play it safe. It's hard to, um, when I talk to our people here, I go, you cannot coast up a mountain. If you want to get to the peak, it's gonna be hard. That's true. You gotta work for it. I like, and it takes a little crazy, but Oh, a lot. Yeah. So. Well, I tell you what I am, I am grateful to have you as my crazy Russian friend. Um. I'm really glad that we've had a chance to share the journey as well and be a part of, now we're a part of the same mastermind. It's a lot of fun and it's, it's a privilege to be your friend and watch you grow. Thank you for spending some time with us. Love. Thank you. Same goes to you. I'm thankful for people around me and I'm so grateful to that. I found you guys. That's, uh. I just wanna say the Mastermind and went through multiple names, but, uh, the idea stays the same, and it's very, very important to have, uh, people like that who can support you, who been through same stuff that you have, maybe even more, well, probably more. And they, they don't think that you're crazy, right? They think that you're not crazy enough. And that's great. That's right. Yeah. That that really is one of the hidden benefits is a community that understands you, that you can grow with. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you guys. Thank yous. Yeah, you as well. Alright. Until next time. I believe we'll actually see each other about 32 days from today in Nashville, Tennessee. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Lev. You too. Till next. Cigar and whiskey. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for this. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners. And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Daniel Dixon, CEO of SendJim, for a high-level but highly practical conversation about modern marketing, targeting, and the real drivers of growth in home service businesses.
 
What makes this episode stand out is how it reframes marketing from “getting more leads” to building a system that consistently generates the right leads—and converts them. Daniel breaks down the concept of being a “big fish in a small pond,” explaining why most companies waste money by marketing too broadly instead of dialing in on their ideal customer avatar. He introduces predictive targeting as a game-changing approach that uses data to identify the small percentage of homeowners most likely to buy, dramatically increasing efficiency and ROI.
 
Beyond lead generation, the conversation dives into the full lifecycle of a job: generating leads, converting them, and delivering the service. Daniel and Sheila explore the often-overlooked tension between sales/marketing and operations, and why growth requires both sides to stay balanced. They also emphasize that the most overlooked opportunity for growth is a company’s existing customer list—where trust is already built and conversion is significantly easier.
 
This episode is especially valuable for newer business owners because it simplifies what can feel overwhelming. Instead of chasing every marketing trend, the focus is on fundamentals: know your market, stay in front of your customers consistently, use multiple channels, and build systems that follow up long after your sales team stops. It’s a strategic, no-BS conversation that helps business owners think smarter about how they spend their marketing dollars and how they scale sustainably.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Convention
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
SendJim (marketing automation platform)
Automate Motivate (employee engagement / gamification platform)
Daniel Dixon — CEO of SendJim
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
 
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship.
 
Let's dive in.
 
Hello listeners. I'm your host, Sheila Smeltzer and contributor to the Huge Transformations podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I have a kick butt interview with Daniel Dixon. Daniel is the CEO of Send. Jim, if you don't know what Send Jim is, send, Jim is a. Marketing product that can absolutely help you be a big fish in a small pond.
 
This is targeting market targeted marketing folks, and Daniel and I, you know, Daniel's got a huge passion for small business. He came out of the corporate world. Uh, we don't even really talk a lot about that, but he came out of the corporate world and his passion is helping small businesses grow. Um, he actually grew up in a family.
 
His mom and dad owned a carpet cleaning company, so you see why he's passionate about home services and small business. But, um, we are gonna talk a lot about marketing today and this stuff is gold. You guys, I learned so much. That I am so excited to share this information with you. Um, we talk about how to really dial into your target market and how to market and spend your marketing dollars to that target of who is your ideal customer avatar.
 
Um, we talk about how to convert. We talk about the lead gen. The conversion. And then we even talk about, yeah, now we have to go deliver the service. And that natural tension between sales and marketing and operations. Um, there's so much that we cover today in just 40, 43 minutes. Um, you are gonna wanna listen to this.
 
So thank you so much for joining us. My wish today is that you'll be an active listener because we are excited each and every interview to help you grow. Enjoy the show. Hello. Hello everyone. This is Sheila Smeltzer, huge, huge podcast contributor, and today we are here with Daniel Dixon. Hey Daniel. Hey, thanks for having me 100%.
 
I am very excited. We were chatting a little bit and I know that we've known each other in the home service space and through the huge convention and other for a long time, but I've never really gotten to know you. And I love a platform on a podcast that we can get to know each other and share some good insights with our listeners today.
 
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to, uh, to dive in also. So, Daniel, tell the audience, just everybody who's listening, let 'em know who you are. Yeah. So Daniel Dixon, I'm currently, uh, I would say an entrepreneur. I, uh, I'm currently the CEO at Syn j. Um, and I own and operate a, uh, garage floor coating company.
 
I live in Nashville, Tennessee. I've got, uh, a beautiful wife and two children that are in elementary and middle school. And, uh, life couldn't be any better. It's, it's, uh, I'm super lucky. I love that you're grateful. I can tell. I am very grateful. I love it. Um, so I, I definitely wanna talk about Send Jim, 'cause uh, I know that this is a fantastic, uh, marketing product and um, definitely can help small businesses of all kinds.
 
And so I'd like to talk about that. Um, I really do wanna, I'm hoping that we can dive into some sales and marketing chat in general. Mm-hmm. Um. Because I know that I think some, a lot of companies are either really good at sales and marketing and other companies are just really good at operations. Um, it's very difficult to be good at both, I think.
 
Um, and one thing that I've really been thinking about, um, leading into and thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about today on the podcast is. One thing that I've noticed in my years in business is, you know, we have all of our different roles in the company from admin, sales and marketing operations, right?
 
Yes. And so there's that sales and operat, sales, marketing, and operations. There's just always this constant tension that's. It's supposed to be healthy, right? We want a healthy, like the ideal is that we have this healthy tension between the both. Meaning if sales and marketing is crushing it, then we need operations to meet that demand, right?
 
Yes, we've got all the leads coming in. Leads coming in, great. We gotta go out and we have to fulfill the services that that, that the leads. Need. Right, right. And then vice versa, operations. We can build up operations and have all the trucks, and have all the people and the equipment and all the stuff. But if we sales is lagging, then you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose those employees.
 
'cause they're like, I can't make any money here. Right. Yes. So I'd really like to talk about that today, but tell me, just to get started, I wanna know more about what you do in the marketing space with Send Gym and Automate Motivate. Yeah. So, uh, syn Gem is a marketing automation platform. Um, what we do, we've kind of flipped, uh, old school marketing on its head, and, uh, we've got very, we've brought like technology to old school marketing.
 
What I mean by that are things like. Making sure we convert every single lead, um, and making sure the neighbors of our customers know about us, uh, as a home service company and marketing to those people. Um, and making sure that, uh, we understand who in the market is buying home services and. An only market to those people.
 
So a lot of that we do through postcards, um, handwritten cards, um, we do some text messaging, but it's a lot of physical goods. Mm-hmm. And instead of like the, the old school spray and pray method, where it's like the more cards you get out, the better, let's try to get out a hundred thousand postcards. Um, we've said, Hey, what if we could only send a thousand postcards, but they're 10 times more effective.
 
Right. So how do we reduce the cost, uh, of your marketing? Um, and get the same or better, uh, result or revenue generated from that. So that's the product. Go ahead. So this is, is this what we call predictive targeting? Predictive targeting. I'm surprised you heard about that. So when the podcast goes live, it'll probably be out in the universe.
 
Um, but right now we have a beta group called Predictive Targeting. Um, I'd love to get into that. If I could explain a little bit about that. I would love to talk to you about that. Um, but I don't want to take up all your show. No, I'm, I'm very interested, um, because I really wanna, I really wanna stay on this topic, so I, I've always been a, a very.
 
Big support like I have found. So I think it depends. I think first of all, we're all in different markets, right? Yes. And for example, my market is lots and lots and lots of retirees. Mm-hmm. Homes valued 600,000 and above. So as we learn at the huge and in the Mastermind, we wanna be big fish in a small pond, right?
 
Yes. We wanna really target into the that target market. Who is it that we really generate our highest ticket from? Yes. And we want to, we want to find them. So if I send out a postcard to thousands and thousands of houses, we know that if we go into, um, you know, if we go to the post office and do postal routes, we're gonna send a lot of postcards that are going to houses that are not in our target.
 
That's not our target. Yes. Correct. Yeah. So I'm assuming predictive marketing is somehow allowing us to find that very small percentage. Of, of people and being able to only market directly to them and not all of the wasteful stuff, because the wasteful postcards are what have given postcards a bad name.
 
Yes. But I also know, just to finish what I'm gonna say here is that like my client, my client demographic of predominantly retirees and that 600,000 and above, they love a handwritten card. Mm-hmm. This, this is meaningful to them. Yes. So we get a referral from them. We send them a handwritten card. Thank you so much for your referral.
 
We're not giving 'em money off, we're not giving 'em anything. The value of just saying sending, sending someone you care about to someone you trust means the world to us. Thank you so much. So tell me how you're doing this with marketing and automation. Yeah. So, um, everything you said, right mail is becoming way more effective than it ever has.
 
So mail used to be super effective way up here. Gotta find my camera way up here. Right? And then as email and digital ads came out, like mail started going like this. Mm-hmm. And like now as AI's coming out and we're inundated with digital ads and everything's digital, like mail's starting to go back like this because you can stand out in the, in the mailbox, there's not many people doing it.
 
Why? Because mail's expensive. It's really expensive if you try to mail every house, right? Mm-hmm. So we started saying like, okay, let's get smart. And we have the, the ability and the, the fortunate circumstance at Syngen to be working with thousands of home service contractors. And we asked, uh, some of our favorite contractors, Hey, would you mind us taking your.
 
Customer data and doing, uh, having our data science team, uh, analyze it and understand what about these people makes them buyers. And so what we took is, uh, you know, 50 to a hundred thousand, uh, maybe more customer records. And we said, okay. Sheila bought, uh, this service, whether it was, uh, let's call it soft washing, okay?
 
Mm-hmm. And so Sheila bought that. Now let's look at everything else we know about Sheila and we know we, we have this data to say that she drives this type of car. She doesn't have a car payment 'cause she owns it, her mortgage, uh. Is this much compared to her home value. This is her personality type. And I'm listing like four things, five things, but we look across 250 data elements to say, what does Sheila look like?
 
Wow. And we do that for every single customer that we, that we got to analyze. So let's say 250 data elements across a hundred thousand people. And then what you do is you take that and you say, okay, where can I find more? Now that I understand what every one of these people looks like, let's look for commonalities.
 
Okay. So one of the unique things we saw, which is crazy that you wouldn't ever be able to find this, uh, without doing this analysis, is that hey, people that use e-readers are way more likely to buy home services. Why? Mm-hmm. I have no idea. Right? Mm-hmm. But like before, it was, let's target everybody with this home value and everybody with, you know, that's owner occupied and that has a single family home.
 
And, you know, we can get, typically, like if you look at a market and we say a hundred percent of people are in your city that are gonna, you know, that live there and then you, if you use typical demographic filters. You can get that down to like 40%. We're gonna mail to 30 or 40% of the homes, and that used to be called targeted.
 
Uh, but what data analysis shows is that only about three to 5% of people in in a market at any given time are actually potential buyers for your service. So we're mailing to 40% using demographics, but only 3% are buyers. So we said, well, what could we do to find those 3%? And we use this to build a data model that says, Hey, I can find other people that use e-readers that drive the same type of car, that have this personality type, that have bought home services in the past that subscribe to magazines that do all these things.
 
And then I can go to your market and said, show me all the people that look like Sheila, and then we can only mail to those people. And what that says is, instead of mailing to 40% of people, you could mail to five or 6% of people. Wow. So I participated in that study that you guys did, by the way. Mm-hmm.
 
Yeah. Thank you. So, yeah, so I'm very curious, um, about that and you know, that sounds like a lot of work. Like how much time did it take you? To do that? Well, it was years of experience, right? Like people had to figure out how to do this and then, um, yeah, it was a long time in the planning and then making sure that we had the right people participating like yourself.
 
Um, that had good customer lists and understood the industry, and then it was all the data analysis, and then it was to actually build a tool around it, right? We had this really cool report and then we're like, now what do we do with it? So it was a, you know, we were thinking about this a long time ago, but it's, you know, now that it's finally here and it's, it's really incredible.
 
Love that. Okay. So, and then this is Send Jim. Yes. Syn Jim. So, so tell me about automate Motivate, because that's automate motivate, totally different part product, right? Totally different product. Um, our founder, Josh Latimer, may have heard of him. Uh, he was very big in the cleaning industry. Um, massive Ander action.
 
Yeah, he, uh, but he, he's a very smart guy and he talked to a lot of home service companies. He founded. Uh, sin Jim, and he said, Hey, what are the two biggest things people have trouble with? Which you kind of alluded to at the beginning of the podcast was, was sales and marketing. That's one. And then mm-hmm.
 
People, right? Mm-hmm. That's the second one. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And employees. And how do we manage the sales people versus the ops people and the tension there. And, and so he developed an app that, uh, gamified the workplace. Um, that said, here's the behaviors we wanna incentivize, and how can people, um, how can business owners make sure their employees get rewarded for those behaviors, like using an actual system or software?
 
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And engagement is, and is such an important thing. You can just see your employees when they walk in the door. You can tell just by the way they walk and the look on their face if they're engaged with being there for the day. Yes. And I have seen it go like this and I've seen it go like this and thank God right now we're going like this.
 
Yeah. But um, but there's so much that goes into that and, um, yeah. Okay, so very cool. Now, what, what if, if I am, I am a plus PRO Services Incorporated and we signed up with Send Jim, what would that process look like? Yeah, so the first thing would be getting on a demo, right? And understanding about your business.
 
Not every business is the same. Um, well, understanding your home service business and then getting a plan set up to say, Hey, it makes sense to follow up with every single quote even after my salesperson's done. Mm-hmm. It makes sense to market to the neighbors and my customers automatically over a six month period.
 
It makes sense to, uh, send some mailings to these people that we believe are home service buyers based on our data model. Right. We'll put together a plan for you and then you'll sign up. And, uh, then we have like a one-on-one onboarding. You'll be paired with a success manager and they, you know, if the words automation scare you or AI or like, you don't, you're not a tech person, right?
 
Like, I didn't go into home services 'cause I wanna be on the computer. Right? We'll set all that up for you. And, um, this is something that's kind of new for us. Uh, and I say this because you, again, you talked about the sales and ops, right? Like, we were really cool at building tools. If you're familiar with Syngen, you know, five years ago.
 
Three years ago, even one year ago, great at selling. We built a really good product, but like we lacked the support to get people set up and to get them truly understanding to how to implement the strategy. And, um, and so our operations is caught up to that now. And so we do a really good job. We have a dedicated onboarding team to make sure that you're gonna get the return on investment.
 
And then we're going to, we're gonna set it and in three months we're gonna come back and say, okay, let's look at. Uh, the results from these, uh, campaigns and automations in your business. So I heard you say that you have the ability to convert every lead. Did you say that? To help you convert every lead, that's the goal, right?
 
Yeah. That is the goal. So, um. I mean, there's so much into that too. Yeah. It's like when it's one thing to get the lead, it's the other part to convert it. Yes. And then it's, the third part is delivering it, right? Yes. But that conversion, how does, because like I understand getting the lead, and I understand how Send Jim can help get the lead, but how does Send Jim help convert the.
 
Yeah. So here's a, here's a perfect example. And I use syn gym in my garage floor business. So I'm just gonna use, use real world numbers, um, because I've, I, I live and breathe this stuff and I actually eat my own dog food. Like, I use syn gym. I pay for the usage, I pay for the subscription. Um, so cool. And so like every single quote that we go on that's over $2,000, we send them a handwritten card, immediate, right?
 
Like we're connected to jobber, our CRM, but we Connect Syndrome connects with tons of home service CRMs, but every single quote that goes out over that amount, we're automatically sending a handwritten card that just says, Hey, thanks for the opportunity to give us. Uh, to let us quote your project. Right?
 
And then it kind of gives a value proposition to them of like, who we are, what we stand for, and people, what, what we know is people buy, especially if your service is non-transactional, um, like if you're in their home or, um, it's a high value service. Like a high dollar service. People buy from people they, they know, they like and they trust.
 
Right? And no one's sending handwritten cards. You, you mentioned that earlier at the value of that. And so. We know there's a ton of competition in the market. For the most part. Everyone can do what we do technically, right? Like we're not special in any way. Anyone can wash windows, anyone can do the garage floor.
 
And so why do they choose? Who do they choose? Well, is it the lowest price or is it because someone stood out? You know, I don't think they're gonna choose somebody that's $50 less when you're buying something that's $4,000. Um. If the person that is of $50 more is like building you this, this relationship with you.
 
So that's the first thing we do, right? Every single time. And then the, our sales person's really good at following up. So he has a three, you know, personal touch follow up process, and then. Um, they either have said, Hey, contact me, hit at this time, and they'll keep following up. Or at some point they've become nonresponsive or they, uh, say no.
 
Okay. Mm-hmm. So those people that have not responded or said no, typically this is like a, you know, two months process. So the sales person following up through their system. So we then enter them. They go into this automation that says, Hey, send them a text message, send them a postcard, send them a voicemail.
 
And so every quarter we're following up with something super simple. The text message might be, Hey, this is Daniel with my garage floor. Guys, I saw you had a quote in our system. Uh, are you still interested in doing this work? Having the work done? And then it's just a response, right? It's just yes or no.
 
There's no offer, there's nothing salesy about it. And they, you know, people say, yes, great. You know what, you know what, what can we do as the next step type of thing. Or it's no, and say, thanks for responding. So anyways, we market to people that have said no or basically have gone cold and every single quarter.
 
We convert like a hundred thousand dollars of work from people that said no to us. Wow. Because we just stay in front of 'em. Right. And in sales, I like to say it's, it's not a, it's not no forever typically it's, no, it's, no, it's like not right now. Mm-hmm. Right. And what I mean by that is, um, you're busy, you're running your own business.
 
I'm busy. Like people that make enough money to buy our services are really busy. Their kid, you know, gets sick. They have a work trip, they. Uh, something happens at their house. They have an, uh, in-law they have to take care of. They go on vacation, like they're just too busy to do the thing now, but it doesn't mean they're saying no.
 
And so there's a subset of those, those people that you've already paid for the lead. These are expensive. And you're just not staying in front of them long enough or building that relationship. And so we do that all automatically, right? Like, I don't expect my salesperson to follow up for two years, but syn gym can follow up for two years in ways that feel authentic.
 
And it's not a text blast, right? It's not. It's very authentic messaging and, uh, doing those things is just giving, it is free money basically, because you've already bought the lead. So why not sell them work for like a, you know, very, very small marketing expense. Right. And in the garage floor space, I mean, these are really one-off tickets, right?
 
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one-off tickets, but in the cleaning space, exterior cleaning space, like these are recurring tickets. So Sure they, so in your case at for the garage floor company, which is by the way, my garage floor guys. And so at my garage floor, guys, they may have said no, but it's like you said, life got in the way.
 
They got busy. They still haven't had their garage floor coded. And our case, a lot of times it's, yeah, we've already chosen somebody else. But so now that's a complete completely different campaign, but it's still that follow up, like, yes. Great. What was your experience like with them? What could you have seen that would've been better?
 
Yeah. How can we create that for you? Right? Yeah. Like if they said, oh, we someone else, I'd be like. Hey, no problem. I hope you had a great experience. You know, would you mind if I reached out a year from now? Um, and you know, would you be open to me reaching out a year from now when you're ready to have the work done again?
 
Right, right. Something like that. Or just reaching out to them a year from now. Like if they say no, let's put them into a campaign that we know they're gonna buy this service in 12 to 18 months from now. Let's start talking to them again in 12 to 18 months. Let's automate that in, in such a way, um, that feels authentic and that.
 
We don't have to worry about, uh, a salesperson spending their time doing. Yeah. I love that. Um, I'm really, and you can, so as far as the content that's going out mm-hmm. That's all customizable, I'm assuming? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because, um, you know, I'm, you know, we're, we're always talking about how we can differentiate from our competition and, and whatnot.
 
The amount of experience that my company has in my market 26 years, by the way, like I know so much about how to protect my client's home. Yes. How to protect their investment from environmental threats like we live in a southern climate. There's so many environmental threats that cost them thousands of dollars of repair and replacement, and I know that our service can mitigate that.
 
So like. I think too, like just to think outside the box, like how can we use a product like yours because it's creating. That automation, but it's creating the, also the personal touches because I'm, I'm in a place where I just wanna educate my clients. Yeah. I feel like if I educate them about what they need to know, because I have the experience, I've been doing it in this market for so long, and I've seen my clients that have benefited from regular routine cleaning and maintenance.
 
I've seen the benefit from it. I have testimonials, I have case studies, I've got all this stuff. It's like I'm trying to figure out. How are we getting that? How am I trying to, and that's really what I'm building all my marketing on at this point. Yeah. Is how to do that. So all these tools and like Send Gym, this just becomes a way that we can, it gives, it's like the catalyst to help us do whatever that messaging is.
 
Yeah, yeah. Whatever that message is, we can help automate it and get it out. And it's important that it's the right time, right? Like the old way of doing things was, well, every spring I send out this every, but it's like, well, you know, you might have served 10% of your customers within the last three months.
 
So are they getting that too? That's 10% wasted and or 10% of people are annoyed, right? Like, so how do we, how do we hit them at the right, the right people, at the right time with the right message? Um, now that we have all this interconnectivity with, you know, CRMs and tools like syngen, you can be much more targeted with, you know, who gets the message and when they get it and that it's at the right time.
 
And there's sophisticated tools out there, like I know home service companies are using go high level. A lot of marketing agencies are doing that, but, um, that is, you know, it's. It's much more difficult because they don't, they're not home service specific. And so you're out there trying to figure out exactly what you wanna build and starting from scratch.
 
It's like buying, you know, a thousand Legos and saying, build me, you know, uh, a. Build me a a car, like a Formula One car, right? Like build a model of this, right? Or you can buy something like Syn Gym that all we work with is home service companies and we have the recipes or the directions to the Lego set and it's like, Hey, we're giving you all the pieces.
 
Mm-hmm. Which is something we didn't do well before, by the way. And now it's like, Hey, here's what you're buying, you're buying. Uh, formula One car replica and here's step by step how we're gonna do it with you. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's just a lot more simple and, and, you know, easy for people in our space to use.
 
Yeah, I love that. Well, that's what we're all looking for, by the way, Daniel. I hope so. I hope so. That's hope add ast, come and change all of it, right? Yeah, I, I love it. Um. Okay, well big fish, small pond, right? Yes. Big fish, small pond and, and how we do that. So, um. I wanna kind of go back to like, in regard to sales and generating leads.
 
'cause we've talked about, you know, conversion of leads. So I guess let's just go backwards, um, and talk about the actual lead generation. And again, this is not my space, so yeah, enlighten me. We know that we want, we know that we need to determine who our target market is. Um, and then what are the other ways, like what are the top ways that companies can generate the right leads?
 
So send Jim as a product that you have that can do that. What are other ways that small businesses, 'cause a lot of our listeners, Daniel, are really new. Into the industry. Yeah. Probably, you know, five years or younger, I would say a ma for majority of our listeners. So they're all probably in that stage.
 
Like they've got the cool trucks, they've got the right stuff, they know how to do the thing. Um, but they need, they need the business so that they can grow. Yeah. So talk, talk me through it. Yeah. So the first thing I wanna say is we, when I teach about marketing in the home service space is that, um, the best return on investment is always gonna be marketing to your customer list because they already know, like, and trust you.
 
And like I said, people buy from people they know, like, and trust. If you did a good job, there's no reason they're not gonna buy from you again. But we can't assume they remember us or that somebody else doesn't send them a flyer and they're like, oh, $400 off, I'm gonna do that. Instead, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so when we start our businesses, we don't have a customer list to market to, right?
 
Mm-hmm. And so we build this muscle. We, we, by necessity, we build the muscle of I need to find the next lead. And we become good at that. Like if you're a sales organization, you become really good at finding the next lead, finding the next customer. But it's like going to the gym and only working your biceps, right?
 
Like you get huge biceps, but like your body's out of balance. And it's required to start your business. But what you don't realize is that in five or 10 years, let's say, like if I was to buy Sheila's business, the majority of what I'm buying is not Sheila's equipment. It's not her employees. It's, it's none of that.
 
It's not the branding or the website despite, you know. As entrepreneurs, we always feel like, oh, my brand's amazing. My, we have the best website. Like the reality is not from an investor standpoint, it's not, it doesn't have hardly any value. What they're buying is they're buying that customer list because they know they can sell to those people and they can generate jobs.
 
Really, when people come to me and say, I need more leads, I've said, do you need more leads or do you need more jobs? Right. And so the easiest way to generate jobs is to sell to your existing customer list. So at some point in your journey, you have to realize like. If I have 500 customers, like what am I doing to market to them?
 
Because when I had 10, I didn't market to them, I just sold to them. Right? I need the next 10 and the next 10. But you need to be aware in your business as we progress and mature, that we need to transition some marketing budget back to marketing, to our customer list. So that's the first thing. If you have a list out there, you should be doing that.
 
Mm-hmm. The second thing to your point is, um, we need to capture people that are already looking for the service. Right. So we, we know that people searching on Google, uh, for my service, like they're actively ready to buy, and they're ready to choose who they, you know, who they're gonna buy from. So local service ads, uh, you know, being on Google AdWords, uh, having your GMB up right and showing up on the maps, like those types of things are super important because people that find that are ready to buy.
 
Right. And then as you capture all of that, right, or you're doing that, it's like, okay, well that's only enough to get my business to here. Like how do I go to the next level? Um, and then it's like, well, maybe I need to be on meta and maybe I need to create my, and then at some point, like all the way, at the other side of the spectrum is I need to create my own demand, right?
 
I need to sell. I'm done selling to people that know they need the service and they're searching for it. I'm done selling to people that are aware of the service, but they're not sure if they need it. Uh, and now I'm gonna sell to people that have no idea about the service or that they need it. Mm-hmm.
 
Mm-hmm. There's the progression and you wanna start at the left, right? I wanna sell to my customers first. I wanna sell to people that I know, uh, are looking for. I wanna sell to people that need it, but they don't, you know, know about it. Let's, right, let's work that progression. But what I find a lot is we, we become addicted to this, to the next lead, the next lead, the next lead.
 
And we don't really understand that we're sitting on a gold mine with our own customers. So I really want to emphasize if you have a customer list. You know, you've been in business two plus years, like you should be marketing to your customers. If you're not, you're missing out on tons of money. Um, the other strategy, can we talk, can we talk about that for a second?
 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I about this. No, I love this. So, um, let's just hang on. Marketing to our existing client database. Yeah. So I know that in the huge, um, mastermind, we talk about all the different channels. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about different marketing channels. Yes. Sorry. Hang on. A call is, that's all right.
 
Um, so what are those different marketing channels? Yeah, so we, what we teach is we wanna do five to seven touches in the five to seven channels, right? So how do we get in front of people so many times that they can't miss us? So, um, you know, a channel can really be anything from your website, your Google ad.
 
Your text messaging to them, your yard sign, your truck that's wrapped your, uh, door hangers, your neighbor mailings, postcards, or your Facebook ads, right? Like, we want to at least choose five and you can't start this day one, but you wanna work up to having five different ways that you're getting in front of the customer.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, and you want to choose the five most effective and then. The other big mistake I see as cust as uh, companies get bigger is they start trying to attribute leads. And I know everyone's gonna say, you gotta know your numbers. You gotta know your numbers. Yes, you gotta understand customer acquisition costs and your, you know, the cost that it costs you to get a job and to deliver a job.
 
Um, all those things. But you start trying to attribute like, well, you know, for example, if you're running TV ads, uh, I, I work with somebody that's a really successful in the gutter space, the gutter cleaning, gutter repair, and he runs TV ads and he said, everyone says TV doesn't work because they try to say, you know, well.
 
I ran a TV ad, but no one said they saw me on tv. Right? But what it does, what he does see is like his website, traffic goes up, his Facebook ads get more effective, right? He gets, and so it's a system of things all working together. To say, Hey, this delivers a really good customer acquisition cost, and this is working.
 
It's not, Hey, uh, it's kind of like a team, right? You can't just have just the sales person. It's like, well, the sales person delivers all the revenue. I don't need anyone else, right? No. It's like, no, you need the, you need the ops manager, and you need the technician, and you need the office person. The whole team.
 
And it's really difficult to break it up and say, well, my office manager only delivers this value, so like, I, I should get rid of her. Mm-hmm. Like, that's silly. And it's the same thing in marketing. Right? I love that. Okay, so now we know. So we've got our target market. We know who we wanna sell to. We know that we need to, we need to touch on them five to seven times.
 
Is that in a year? Like in the course of a year, when you say five to seven touches, what does that mean In a year? Yeah. Um, so like the, the, the studies basically say they need to know about your brand seven times before they buy. Um, got it. On average. And so anybody, like, you're trying to get a new customer, you want to see them, you know, seven times, and if they see you seven times in their buying season, right.
 
That might be in. A month, that would be fantastic. Um, is it seven times over two or three years maybe? Uh, it just, we don't know when they're gonna buy, so we wanna stay in front of them, is the concept. Got it. Okay. So it doesn't really matter what the timeframe is, but that seventh time, they're most likely gonna become a lead or they at least recognize with you.
 
And if they want to do it, then they're gonna probably call you. Yeah, the key is to stay in front. Like we know that Sheila's gonna buy soft washing at some point, right? So how do I stay in front of her long enough to know that when she's ready, she chooses me. Instead of saying like, you know, I'm gonna run Google ads for a month and see how it does, or I'm gonna send one round of postcards and see how it does.
 
It's like, well, the chance you might have hit Sheila, and we know Sheila's gonna buy soft washing, but there's 365 days a year, and she got your postcard on one day and that wasn't the day she was ready to buy. So right. It, it was wasted. Right. Like it doesn't make any sense. Right, right. Okay, so, so we've got our five to seven touches, and then we've got our, so an over five to seven different channels, which could be a number of different touches, right.
 
Whatever that may be. Whatever, whatever, whatever avenue we're choosing to get in front of them. Yes. So now we have all that. Great. How does that help us determine. How much market penetration we can actually acquire in our current market? Yeah, that's a good question. So the tools like predictive targeting are helpful to understand how many people are actually buyers in your market, right?
 
So you can't say, well, there's a hundred thousand people in my city and I service 5,000 of 'em. So a 5% market penetration. You might be serving the only 5,000 that buy that in the whole city, right? Yeah. So you might have a hundred percent market penetration. You know, using a tool like Synge, you can go on, you can enter, I wanna look 15 miles from my shop, right?
 
Or whatever the radius is that you wanna serve and say like, how many people? And it'll break it down for you of like four tiers is what it does. And it'll say, here's the top tier buyers, there's 30,000 people. Okay, well like how many of those am I serving? Now we can start understanding a little bit better of like.
 
Do I have a lot more opportunity here? Do I not, you know, a hundred percent's always, you know, gonna be impossible, I would say. Mm-hmm. But what's realistic? Is there another really big competitor? Can I get 30%, you know, 20%? So that's how I would start thinking about it. But unless you understand how many people in a market are actually buyers, like market penetration is, is kind of silly.
 
'cause you're just like, it is like me saying. Well, there's 260 million people in the country and like Syn Gym serves, uh, 5,000 of 'em. Like I'm, I'm this much penetrated, right. But it's like, no, like there's only so many businesses that would buy this. Yeah. I think that, um, I think I, I wanna don't wanna say it's a guess because it's definitely a calculated.
 
Um, thought yeah. To go, okay. In my market, I, if I, if I were to do some study and say, 'cause back to my $600,000 and above, right? And yeah, most of them are retires, but they don't have to be. Um, I will know that I want them to live within five miles of the beach, and I know that my market is, you know, so much, you know, so many miles up and down the beach.
 
Okay? So. To come up with like a realistic market penetration. For me, it was kind of simple because I've just gone back and looked at what type of penetration do I have in these different communities that we work in, that we have long time standing in. So I know that there is one community in my market that we are, we teeter anywhere between, we've tracked it for the last three years.
 
We teeter right between 20 and 23% saturation in that market. Wow. Just so you know, there's over 6,000 houses. In that one community. So like that's a really good penetration in that and we stay consistent with that. And I also have a sh ton of competitors, ton of competitors in that market too. So to me it's like, okay, this is probably realistic for me to say that we can have 20% market penetration.
 
Now how can I do that same thing in all these other communities that we're working in? Right. I wanna have that same. So I guess like for me it was a practice of going, okay, I've got my different beaches. Those all have X amount of houses kind of trying to figure out. And you can use different online sources for figuring out how many of those houses fall on that 600,000 and above, which most on the beach are well above that.
 
And then also in these communities, most of those houses are too, I mean, there's very few, if they're a townhouse or something like that, that would fall below that. So it's kind of like, it's been a really healthy exercise for me to just look at my current market and say, okay, if I were to get 20% in all of these in the study that I did, how now I have an average ticket of, let's say it's a thousand dollars and I, and I times it by all those houses and then say, okay, and there's just 20% of that is what I wanna grab.
 
Ultimately that's telling me what size company I can aspire to be. Like what is my, what is my total market saturation where I go, okay, super successful. Now I wanna stay here and maybe now I can take that model and I can do the same thing in other markets. Right? Yeah. That's the way it all works for me and this is a lot of what I've learned in, in the huge Mastermind.
 
So what do you think about that? I love it. Um, the, the important thing is that we have a, uh, that we have a method, right? And that we have a good understanding. I think your point is, is correct that like it's all an estimation, right? Even our data tools and estimation, but it's to have some type of thinking behind the how you.
 
How you're making your decisions, right? You're not just being like, well, I think I can do this because I don't know, I woke up on this side of the bed today, there's, there should be so much. I wanna be a $10 million company. Great. How are you gonna do that? Exactly. And like it might be all wrong, but if you understand the logic behind it that I wanna be $10 million, I don't have 10 customers that pay me a million dollars.
 
Okay, well. If I don't get there, is it because I can't get 10 customers to pay me a million dollars? Or I can get 10 customers, but they only pay me 900. Right. And then we start tweaking the assumptions based on our learnings. Mm-hmm. But you, you gotta have some methodology. So I love how you approached it and I think even most businesses are, are even thinking about that type of thing.
 
Well, guess what? I learned it in the huge mastermind, huge mastermind's. Great. Hey, uh, am I able to present my screen? I can show you our tool in your market real fast. Please. Let's do it. Um, hang on. You're gonna get me not, we could do it offline. Okay. You try. If you can do it, great. I don't know if I need to do something on my end, let me know.
 
Okay. Let me see if I can do this.
 
Okay. Can you see this? Um, hang on, I'm gonna add that to the stage. Hey, awesome. All right, so this is our new predictive targeting tool. And, and this is, I think where your office is, is that right? Um, nope. You have to go. So from Florida, I'm in the southeast of North Carolina, so Okay. Go to Right the where, oh wait, where are you?
 
Uh, sorry. Yeah, this is, uh, no, you were right. You were right. Yep. You were right. Sorry about that. Okay. And so how far down do you serve? Uh, probably go from the state line. Okay. So you could go from Myrtle Beach to Wilmington. That would be my territory. Okay. Oh, shoot. Let's do this. Let's just do this. Just, uh, we'll do it quick and easy, right?
 
And you can literally just hang on the coast. There you go. Let's do this and then we're just gonna say, window clean, exterior cleaning, and go. And this is the cool thing is it's looking, it's doing all that calculation in the background that we talked about with all the data and looking at, um, what we know about people buying exterior cleaning.
 
And then it's saying, Hey, 31,314 people are four times, these are the most likely people to buy your product. And they're four times more likely to buy than an average person using demographic filters. So this is like, this is four times better than saying I'm only gonna mail to homes or market to homes that are above 600,000 in are retired type of thing.
 
So there's 31,000 that are four times more likely. If there's another 28,000 that are two to three times more likely, and if you wanted to include just people 600,000 and above, this would be like those, like they're kind of, you know Right. Just using demographic filters. Okay. You know, you're looking at like maybe 115,000 people that are, you know, pretty good to market to.
 
I would say these would be, you know, your ideal customers. So does that help you, uh, understand that and what, what are your reactions to that? Well, I love that. So does it find the people for me? It does. It does. Yeah. So all you'd have to do is click send Mailing here and it'll generate those addresses, uh, that you select and then you can choose the, the thing you wanna send to 'em.
 
That is freaking awesome, Daniel. I love it. Yeah. Really cool. I love that. Okay, well I'm gonna make sure that we, um. I'm gonna make the request that this podcast can be shown in video form, um, which I really like to move to that anyway, so I'll see if we can do that. Otherwise, maybe we can take that snippet and put in the show notes so that people can actually watch the snippet to see what that looks like, but absolutely, that's super cool.
 
I love it. Okay, well is there anything you wanna finish off with today? 'cause we're about out of time, but this has been an amazing conversation. What do you finish? No, I just wanna say thanks for having me. The huge mastermind is, you know, was, is super helpful. I was part of it for, you know, over five years.
 
Um, the people you meet there, uh, almost any, almost some, there's someone there that's done what you're trying to do. And so just those relationships and finding the who and not, you know, using chat GPT to. You know, guide you is really helpful. So, um, if it's not that, just the emotional support of, you know, connecting with other entrepreneurs is, is really incredible.
 
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Um, the community. Is it's not, it's not about, you know, you go to conventions and things like that and everybody's, everybody's there kind of in show off mode, right? We're the biggest, we're the best, we're doing the coolest things. Like all of that. There's a totally different feeling in the huge mastermind, I have to say.
 
It's really a lot of giving to each other. Yeah, it's a lot of supporting each other, helping each other out. Um, and the whole model is set up really great for that. And you know, I think. We do talk about the Mastermind a lot on this podcast, and it's because I really want people to know that that community is out there and it exists and you know, it involves people like you, Daniel and everyone, like from people like you to people that are just starting out and people like me that have 26 year companies, um, it's all over the place.
 
So it's like no matter what you need, I guarantee there's somebody in there that can help you. And, you know, they've done a really good job of, of making sure that, again, back to that giving spirit. We're, we're always trying to just speak from experience. People that listen to this podcast, you'll never hear me say that this is what I think you should do.
 
Instead, I'm only gonna talk to you about what I have done. And most of the times those were huge, massive mistakes. Yeah, and if you can learn from me and the mistakes I've made in my 26 years, then I have brought value to you. To have access to somebody that has more than 20 years experience in doing what you want to do is just incredibly valuable.
 
Yep. Can't say it's all been right, but you know, I'm still learning and growing and you know, but yeah, it's, um, it's been a journey and I just love it. So, um, but thank you so much. There's so much gold that's come out of this conversation today. I love just learning from you about sales and marketing. Send gym sounds amazing.
 
Um, and can't wait to dive more and learn more about it. And you'll probably be hearing from us soon, Daniel. That sounds good. Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate your time. All right, you too. Thanks for being here. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode.
 
I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business.
 
And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you.
 
And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners. And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
 
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
 
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
 
And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
 
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
 
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Jonathon Henderson of Pressure Washing Marketing Pros for a practical conversation about what it really takes to grow a home service business from startup mode into a scalable operation.
Cutting through the usual marketing fluff, Jonathon explains why most companies between $0 and $500,000 do not actually have a lead problem. They usually have a sales process, admin, or follow-up problem. He breaks down the difference between referral leads and digital leads, why trust has to be built differently with each, and how reviews, CRM systems, boots-on-the-ground marketing, and better lead handling all play a major role in growth.
Sheila and Jonathon also dig into how AI is changing search behavior, why website content now needs to be more specific and useful instead of stuffed with keywords, and how companies can stand out in increasingly crowded markets. For exterior cleaning and other home service owners, this episode is a strong reminder that sustainable growth comes from mastering the fundamentals: knowing your market, building trust, creating repeat business, and tightening your internal systems before throwing more money at marketing.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
The Huge Convention
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros free strategy session
Pressure Washing Marketing Pros Facebook
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders.
 
And every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild.
 
Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
 
Hello. Hello, this is Sheila Smelter, your host and contributor for the Huge Transformations podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I have a great interview with Jonathan Henderson, pressure Washing marketing pros. He's a seven year digital marketing company and we dive into, really most of our discussion is talking about if we're a company that's trying to scale from zero to 500,000.
 
We do a lot of discussion around this and where we need to focus on marketing and how. He's able to help companies kind of get to the next level. The thing that I love about this conversation with Jonathan today is that it is so incredibly practical, and even though we're talking about marketing and digital marketing and AI and a marketing checklist and current marketing trends, and you know how to close a customer, we're talking about all these things in this, in this show today.
 
But you know, really, if you're a zero to 500 or if you're a. Million to 2 million to $3 million company. It's all the same stuff. It all applies. I learned so much from listening and talking to Jonathan today. Um, this is just really good conversation. He completely speaks our language in the ex exterior cleaning space, and I just, this is so gold.
 
I love it. I am so glad that you're here to join us today. I hope you'll be an active listener, and I thank you so much for listening to the show. Hey everybody. This is Sheila Smeltzer, your host and contributor for the Huge Transformations podcast. Today I have Jonathan Henderson with us. Hey, Jonathan.
 
How you doing, Sheila? I'm doing great, man. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us. We get to dive into marketing today, don't we? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Uh, tell our listeners who you are, what you do, and, and so we'll get started. Yeah. So my name is Jonathan Henderson, as Sheila alluded to pressure washing Marketing pros.
 
We're a digital marketing agency that exclusively works with exterior cleaning businesses, whether it's pressure washing, gutter cleaning, paper, ceiling, and even Christmas sign installation. So we have over 145 plus clients in the US, Canada. So we've seen, not all, but we've seen a lot of what goes on in the industry.
 
Very cool. So you're, you have a digital marketing company and it, it's not all digital, right? Is that incorrect to say that it's digital? Yeah. So SCA website design ads. Mm-hmm. Okay, great. And your, like your niche is an exterior cleaning? Yes. Cool. Exclusively exterior cleaning only. All right, well we've got the right guy on the show today then.
 
'cause we've got a lot of listeners that are in the exterior cleaning space. But really a lot of what we talk about would go into other verticals, right? With garage floor coatings or any, any type of home service business. Of course, of course. I have experience in the home service industry. I used to be a part owner of a junk removal company as well, so I kind of know how it is to run a home service business also.
 
Okay. Well, Jonathan, I just wanna start, how did you, how did you, how did you learn what you know, how did you become an expert in the space? Trial and error. Right? That's just probably how everybody is when they say YouTube University trial and error. I first started off. About seven, eight years ago, and I was in the military at the time and I wanted to find a way to supplement my income, kind of make more impact with what I was doing.
 
And so while I was deployed, I just wanted to pick up another skill. 'cause I had so much free time on my hand hand. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna learn how to run Facebook ads. And so I bought a course that I saw on Facebook and I dove into that, started implementing some of the strategies, cold calling businesses in my local area while I was, you know, deployed with that.
 
So it was like a 12 hour difference, like seven to 12 hour difference. So I'm cold calling those businesses, landing a couple of clients that were restaurants, and I started doing Facebook ads for them. Then after I did Facebook ads with them, I eventually, one, one of my best friends had a digital marketing agency that he was starting at the time, and he was doing more website design, SEO stuff.
 
So I was like, Hey man, can you teach me how to do that? So he taught me how to do that. I started implementing that for local clients. Once I got back from my deployment, I started implementing that for, I had about seven or eight people in my local area. Roofers, plumbers, floral shop. Right? One lawyer too.
 
So I was doing digital marketing for them, and I, a pressure washing guy. He's still a client of ours today. Jesse Meister. Shout out to you. Uh, propel Pressure Cleaning Warner Robins. Right. But, uh, he had hit me up and he said, Hey man, do you, have you ever done any, uh, marketing for pressure washing businesses?
 
I didn't, at the time. I didn't even know what it was. That was around 2000. End of 2018. Beginning of 2019. And I was like. I don't know what pressure washing is, but I know that I can definitely help you out. 'cause there's not as much competition now, you know, now we know eight years later there's way more competition.
 
Right. But, uh, at the time we got him ranked, we said, you know, we did really good for him. And I asked him if there was anybody else that was in his industry or there, if there was anybody else that was in this industry. And there was, and so. I just began, you know, cold calling. I began doing these video audits and uh, that's how I got like the first 15 to 20 clients.
 
And in 20, like in basically beginning of 2020, I just decided to take it full time and uh, start pressure washing marketing pros. So that's how I learned at first. I just bought a bunch of courses, executed it myself, and yeah. So, and I'm assuming, because you and I met in the huge mastermind group, so I'm assuming that when, what was your first huge convention?
 
My first huge convention. Funny enough, my first huge convention was in 2000, which, which one was the one that was in Atlanta? What year was that? Atlanta. That's going back a bit. Yeah. I think that was like 20, was that like 2019 Maybe I can tell you that was, that was, yeah, that was a minute ago. Um, I know that most of them have been, have been in Nashville.
 
There was Atlanta and there was Washington DC at one point too. Mm-hmm. Um, that's going back probably more like 20. 13, 15, something like that. But um, but yeah. So Atlanta was your first show? Atlanta was my first one. I think that was probably right before COVID. 'cause I think in 2021 it was in Nashville, I think in 2021.
 
It may, it may have been in Nashville, but I think my first one was like 2019 maybe. I didn't know anybody in industry just, and I already lived in Georgia, so it was just like a. It was literally just a drive up from there. So it was either 2020, the one in Atlanta? Yeah. 20 20, 20 19. One of those. Okay. That was my first huge convention.
 
Okay. And I've been going every single one, every year. That definitely gets you in the network of exterior cleaners. Yep, it does. Yeah, it definitely does. Okay. So yeah. So if a company came to you and they were, I don't know, exclusively a, I know garage floor coatings are very popular in this group too, but if they did that, would you have services to offer them?
 
I wouldn't necessarily have services to offer them, but just like how we're in the huge mastermind group where we get a lot of value from that. I also am in a different coaching group from my digital marketing agency, right. Exclusively, which we have other partners that are in that same one, like shout out to Drew Larson over, you know, he runs digital marketing agency.
 
That's also in the, in our group too. And so if somebody needed garage doors, I have, I have a good friend, good buddy. Whether it's garage doors, whether it's plumbers, whether it's junk removal, whether. Any home service business you think about, I have somebody that does the same exact thing that we do, but for that particular vertical and niche.
 
Love that. Okay. Awesome. That is great to know. Yeah. I have interviewed Drew Larson on this podcast, so you can go back in the previous episodes and find that. Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. So take me through, um, let's, I'm a company, I'm in pretty much startup mode. I'm between zero and 500,000. Um, what's a, what's a marketing, well, let me ask you this question first.
 
What are the most common struggles you find with the startups in regard to marketing? In regards to marketing. You know, I could probably take that even broader than just saying general, you know, but I will, I will. I will say marketing, but I think it ties to the generality piece too. I think that one of the biggest things is gonna be finding enough time to be able to close, and so.
 
What I find is that once guys hit that 250,000 mark, 300,002, between 250 to 350,000, it gets very difficult for them to scale any type of marketing that they're doing, even if they use our type of marketing. What ends up happening is they're so, they're on the truck a lot, and so they might treat. The referrals that they get, or people that are past customers, they treat those leads the same way that they would treat a Google Ads lead an SEO lead, or even like a cold lead.
 
Right? And so, mm-hmm. I always say the biggest mistake that I see guys make when they're between zero to 500,000 is that they treat every lead the same. And so they, they expect that, so they have the same sales process that they would take a person who's a referral through, or a person that was already a past customer, they, they also take that same sales process to somebody that may have clicked on their Google ad.
 
'cause that's when a lot of guys start getting comfortable, you know, investing in digital marketing. When they hit like that a hundred to 150,000 a year, they start getting a little bit comfortable. Like, Hey, I might run some Facebook ads and Google ads, but then they might say, these leads are lower quality.
 
You know, these guys aren't closing right now. And it's like, well, yes, because the clients that you're accustomed to were the ones that were referring. You were the ones that were already past customers. And so most of the time when I ask them, how are you getting most of your jobs, 90% of 'em will always say that are in that phase.
 
Like, oh, you know, word of mouth. Word of mouth. Existing client referral. Yeah. Uhhuh, bingo. Right? And so they don't know. So I think the biggest struggle right there is you have to be able to dial in someone of a sales process. And you, and not even a sales process so much, but you have to be able to just have somebody answer the phones and have a different kind of process that you take people that come from maybe a Google ad than somebody that, that found about, found out about you from word of mouth.
 
So kind of in short though, what, what's the overall difference between a existing client referral to mm-hmm. A Google ad in regard to lead and conversion? What, what, what are we doing different? Yeah, perfect question. So if I know if, if I know I'm a past customer, I already have that trust built with you, I have a different intention.
 
I might be looking for quality, I might be looking for trust. And so that's why if I'm a past, if I'm a referral or a past customer, that's why I go back to you. A person that's on a Google ad doesn't know you from anything. They just have a service. They just say, Hey. I need, you know, pressure washing done at my house.
 
And so at that point, what are they gonna do? They're gonna click the ad, they're gonna see you, you might have some good before and after photos, they're gonna give you a call. And if I just pick up that phone call and I quote them over the phone and I just say, well, yeah, it's gonna probably cost you $350.
 
You know we're gonna do X, Y, and z. That person's just not gonna close over the phone. I'm not saying like they could, right? But you're gonna be missing out a big sector of people, right? Maybe only 10% of people that call from a Google ad will one call close, right? But you're gonna miss out on like the 90% of people that you may have to follow up with that you may have to go out and give in-person estimates to that may not know about your brand.
 
Because even your branding and how long you've been in business plays a factor. And so some people might. I always call it omnipresence, but if you're always marketing in different kind of avenues. But I don't, you know, I don't want to go too long on a tangent like that with that stuff, but I would say that those factors play a role in that.
 
And so a lot of the time with Google Ads, just to put it simply, they don't, they don't trust you as much right now. So you have to go ahead and build more of that trust. And so that might be. You might have to have more follow ups, you might have to go ahead and do it in person. So those are different things that a lot of guys, I feel like they just hit that plateau.
 
And of course we know Sheila, you know this too, hiring, right? Yeah. In a service business, no matter what it is, whether it's pressure washing, digital marketing, a restaurant, you always will have the demand. A lot of the time you just don't have the people to execute it. You know? It's much harder to find.
 
So this is awesome. 'cause really what I just heard is the existing client referral. That's what I call it. That's what I, mm-hmm. That's my campaign name for it. My company. Existing client referral. You're right. When those, when those referrals come in, that is somebody sending someone they care about to someone they trust.
 
There's already that trust factor there. Mm-hmm. And that is a very, that is a much easier conversion. But what you're saying is that if they're coming off of a digital lead. Now you have to actually create that trust and you wanna now start to build the relationship. And it is a very personal relationship, especially in home services.
 
Now, don't get me wrong, we have clients that are, can be transactional. Like, Hey, here's my house, here's the door code. Just go in, do what you're gonna do, or whatever it may be. But, um, those, it's, it, 90% of the time it's gonna be somebody that you want to, is gonna greet you at their front door and be there for the service and get to know you while you're there.
 
So really, we wanna build that trust. There's, there's another layer of trust building from the digital lead. Bingo. Bingo. You're right about that. And I think that you said something important there, Sheila. I think the advantages that exterior cleaning businesses have. Then other industries that I was in, like junk removal is that people care about their homes.
 
Number one, people really care about their homes, so you're gonna find more people that aren't as transactional in the exterior cleaning industry because they're like, I want the right company to go ahead and clean my home so people pay a higher ticket price. Now, the industry that I was in with junk removal.
 
Know, when I've talked to my business partners about that stuff, I would always say in junk removal, people are only loyal to, to whoever had their attention, right? Mm-hmm. Because with junk removal, I could get any, it's, it's a low barrier entry, right? I can get anybody to remove the junk. I can have a 4,000 square foot home.
 
Right? Does that change the price of how much? If, if one, if a 1500 square foot home has this amount of junk, like the same amount of junk as a 4,000 square foot home, that's the same price. Right. Doesn't matter how rich that person is. Doesn't matter how big their home is at that point, it's gonna be who's ever loyal to their attention, right?
 
Or who's ever or gonna be loyal to whoever has their attention. So the thing I like about exterior cleaning is that a lot of people care about their home. If they have a 4,000 square foot home, then they're gonna be like, dude, I'm not gonna just have any company come to my property and clean it. Right, number one and number two, you can go out to that property multiple times, right?
 
I can go out there, clean their roof, I can go out there, clean their gutters. I can go out there, clean their driveway, their house, and that doesn't have to be all in one sitting. It can be in multiple sittings. I can do their house, their driveway, their roof in the springtime, and I can clean their gutters and hang their lights in the fall and wintertime.
 
So just hang in on Google for a second. I have so many questions to ask you, by the way, but just hanging on Google for a second. How much weight do Google Reviews play in this process? Because they're with Google reviews when, if they really take the time to go in and scope out your company and they're reading, you know, hundreds of five star Google reviews and customers saying all these very detailed things about their experience with your company, that is actually a way to automate this trust building from the get go, I would assume, right.
 
Yes, of course reviews are one of the most important ranking factors, not only on Google, but just building trust overall. And so I think you hit it on the head, Sheila, about, about building reviews and why that is very important, especially for a company that is brand new. I always say, and I know we'll talk about that here soon, about like AI and how and how like such behaviors are changing as time goes on.
 
But in those reviews, especially for newer companies, like I know for you, your guys' business has a lot of reviews, right? If I'm a new guy on the block and I'm trying to compete with you, Sheila, like it's gonna be very hard for me to do. I, I have to find a way to go ahead and accelerate that process of how I'm gonna be able to generate my reviews, right?
 
And so I believe it's only gonna get harder for newer businesses because just me, I don't know. I don't know if you shared the same sentiment, but I know when I first got in the exterior cleaning industry back in like 2019, 2020 timeframe. There wasn't as many exterior cleaning businesses like there just wasn't nearly as many as we have now.
 
And so now I see significantly more exterior cleaning businesses than I saw six, seven years ago. And so what does that mean? There's gonna be even five to six years from now, there's gonna be even more. And there's already companies that are established that have already been doing exterior cleaning for.
 
10 years already right now in 2026. So how is the business gonna be coming in in 2028? How they can accelerate that path? Like you said, they're gonna have to get reviews, they're gonna have to build that good foundation. You're speaking my language right there. So, I mean, my testimonial on this is that I'm a 26 year company in my market.
 
Yeah. And when over up until the last 10 years, I maybe had five real competitors. Yeah. And now it's probably 30 like yeah, I do competitive analysis. Like it is insane how much competition I have. It is, it is like when you get there, it's a whole nother bag of issues of how you stay on top, how you remain on top, and then how you differentiate how, like what is it that you can do to rise above?
 
'cause you know. I don't wanna fight for the, I don't wanna fight. I like, I've, I feel as though I've earned the authority to be able to be the thought leader in my space. Mm-hmm. And so I don't wanna be scrounging for these bottom ticket jobs. Like that is not who we are. Um, don't get me wrong. There's work out there for everybody.
 
And I think that's the beautiful part about it. Every market has work for, there's plenty of work around for everybody, you know? You're right about, and I like really, as competitors, we all need to be really supportive of each other and you know, creating the standard, like, I don't know, I'm sorry I could go off on this for a long time, but I have the standard in my own market and it's like, you know, my hope and dream is that the people coming in, the other companies coming in and starting up.
 
That they are able to actually benefit from kind of the market expectation, the pricing expectation and things like that, that I have created, you know, through a plus PRO services. So, you know, but that's not always the case. But we can, we can move on from this topic. It's just, it's a, it's a real, it's a real thing, a daily, daily conundrum.
 
Um, it is, no, I, I understand that 110%. Yep. So I guess the flip side of being the new guy trying to come in and compete with the established, there's also the established now having to compete with the new companies, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and a lot of it is price, but let's, um, I wanna ask you, staying in the range of a zero to 500,000 uhhuh, like what is the marketing checklist?
 
What, where do I need to be focusing? And then kind of order of importance. Kind of like top five. Okay. No, I, I love that question. So first the thing, the first thing before I go into the marketing checklist about that, so I can answer it the best way I can, is that I would look at the market that you're in.
 
Like there's gonna be different markets that, like if I'm in Joplin, Missouri, I have to look at my market and say, if I'm getting advice from a guy that's in Orlando, Florida about his marketing, those are two separate markets. Are they not? Yeah, one of them is a significantly lower household income.
 
Significantly lower population while Orlando has a significantly higher income, significantly higher population. So first thing that I would tackle if I'm doing any type of marketing, you know, and I have a checklist with that, is I'm tackling who is my customer avatar? What, what does my, and as we talk about in the mastermind, I won't go into it a lot, but like, you have to look at your total addressable market, right?
 
Like who, like how many people can I market to? You know, how many people are my customers? How many people can I go ahead and reasonably capture in this market? If there's only 50,000 households in the area that you're in, you're probably not gonna get off 50,000. Right? But what percentage of those people can you go ahead and actually reasonably attain in that market?
 
And so that's the first thing I think guys missing on is say, well, my friend said that I should be doing this from a marketing. It was like, well, your friends in. Orlando man, and you're, like I said, you're in the middle of nowhere. In, in Arkansas. You guys are gonna have two different ways that you're gonna be marketing.
 
So address that first, you're gonna wanna go ahead and address what your market is, the population, household income, all of that. Second thing that I'll go ahead and look at is I always say you need to have, you don't need to be doing every marketing thing under the sun, but you need to at least try enough.
 
So like the second thing I would say is that I would be trying as much like boots on the ground strategies as I can. And I would give it time to go ahead and test. And what I mean by that is this, is that a lot of guys will say, I sent out edms. And it's like, how many did you send out? Well, I sent out 500.
 
How many times did you do it in one month? I sent it one time. One month. Got no return on it, so I stopped doing it. And it's like you didn't have enough volume in order for you to see if it was actually gonna go ahead and work or not. 'cause for me, for example, when we had our business for junk removal stuff, I'd have to send out at least.
 
Like 5,000 for it to be profitable. If I only send out 500, I have the wrong story about it. So that's why you wanna have that foundation set, especially if you're a zero to 500,000. You wanna have marketing strategies that, that don't necessarily rely on digital per se, because you wanna build a good foundation.
 
'cause what if you're digital marketing agency can't? What if you just relied on a digital marketing agency like ourselves for your business and then all of a sudden. You're not getting the leads that you need, you're always gonna be at the mercy of that digital marketing agency. So that's why I always say you need to be building up your own lead source boots on the ground marketing.
 
So find ways you need to find all the ways that you need to market, but test out as many as you can possible while you're in that range right there to see what's gonna be most successful for you in your market. That'd be like the second thing I would talk about. Third thing that I'd talk about if you're gonna go digital, um.
 
It'd just be looking at your market in the sense of making sure that you have enough budget to spend. Because if I'm in that sort of 500,000, if I'm at the two 50 to 350,000 range, then I probably have a little excess cash to go ahead and market for Google ads, Facebook ads. I'd look at my market. If I'm at that 100,000, 150,000, I may not.
 
Right? So I think that you need to have a CRM in place as well, because I know Sheila, you're like, John, this is nothing about Google, nothing about, but it's just like. You can't be as successful with digital marketing if you don't have these things in place. Like I, like, I know guys out there that are at $200,000 a year in their pressure washing business, and they don't have a CRM yet.
 
I'm like, what are you? They're like, I'm using QuickBooks man. I'm using QuickBooks for all my, I'm like, you don't have a CRM. They're like, no, I don't have a CRM. And it's like, well, that's why you're losing money on the table because you know you're probably just getting these one time transactions. And so at that point, you wanna make sure that you have those basics down.
 
So I'd say three things, Sheila, right? You wanna make sure you look at your, you wanna make sure you look at your household's market or your market, right? Your demographics, so that you know, yeah, you wanna test out many marketing sources that aren't digital first, so that when you're in a pinch and you know that Sheila, you've been in business over 20 years, there's gonna be times when you, you're in a pinch.
 
I can't just be like, well, I need to just raise my budget on Google Ads or Facebook. Like sometimes you're in a pinch and you're like, I need to get jobs. Now, whether that's door knocking, whether that's yard signs, whether that's something that you put the demand in front of your customer's face. Right, right.
 
You don't, for them to come to you, you put the demand in their face. So that's why we test out strategies like that, which are usually boots on the ground, right? And then just make sure that you have a CRM and these different things in place so that when you do go ahead and you get leads, you're organized, you're not disorganized, and you're able to maximize the leads that you do get.
 
So that's what I would say for guys that are in that range, the things that I just see that they need to go ahead and do. I love that. Um, yeah. You know what, this is the playbook. It's the playbook. Yeah. It, it is the, it is the basics. And um, and you're right, it's very important to create that foundation before we move into the big spend items and things like that.
 
Mm-hmm. You know, I love to, um, like in regards to not digital. Yes. There's EDDM, so every door direct marketing, um, mail marketing, um, you know, don't underestimate the power of a really solid referral program. Bingo. Just like you said, like an existing client referral is free. It's free. Bingo. Exactly. And, and, and it's the most trusted lead you're gonna get.
 
And you're probably gonna have over 50, 50% conversion rate on that existing client referral. So how can you encourage more of those and incentivize your clients? And I had tell you one thing. Jonathan that we've, our referral program has been so simple over the years and existing client referral is our number one marketing campaign source, meaning it's, it's our top performing marketing campaign every time and is because people wanna refer us whenever they do.
 
All we're doing is we're sending them a little thank you card and it says, thank you so much for referring so and so sending someone you care about to someone you trust. It means the world to us. That's it. Yeah. And guess what? They wanna continue to refer just like that. Yeah. And I mean, you know, and we've done it where we give them discounts and things, but you know what, it doesn't feel as good as when they just get that handwritten card.
 
Mm-hmm. And I was talking to Daniel Dixon about this, um, who's, you know, son Jim and whatnot. I interviewed him on this podcast last week. Mm-hmm. And we were talking about like direct mail marketing. Um, which we are definitely getting off the digital right now, but direct mail marketing, how it was used so heavily that everybody was just throwing 'em away, but now we're in a trend that nobody's doing it anymore, so you'd actually be really darn effective by sending a, a mail marketing piece.
 
And if it's the right piece and if it has that personal touch. Um, and so there's so many things out there that we have that we can automate with even direct mail marketing now. And I just think it's so cool. Like I love to watch these, um, like I love to watch things come full circle, right? I mean, yeah.
 
It's really like the trends really do come full circle and it's really fascinating to me, especially over, you know, so many years. Yeah. I think it's timeless. So I love how you kind of laid out your first steps and the marketing checklist. So you talked a little bit about ai. Mm-hmm. Um, and this kind of goes along with like current marketing trends, but how is AI impacting what you do with your clients?
 
That's perfect. So for our clients, I, AI is impacting it because I think that as time goes on, just like you, just like you said earlier, Sheila, like how direct mail, it's all coming full circle, right? I believe that even with ai, it's all coming full circle because guess what the with JI and all of that, if I digitize right, if I digitize how I do edms and different things like that, to where I can say every time in my CRM.
 
I close this customer out. Right. It sends them every, you know, sends the people around them direct mail. Mm-hmm. And so for us, what I'm seeing is I, I'll take this question two ways, right? The first is, how, how does it affect the searcher? Well, it comes full circle. Back then, 25, 30 years ago, people used to look in yellow books.
 
You know what I mean? Like who had the biggest adding yellow books, right? Like they're on the front page. The first page right there, they had like the biggest one. Like you're laughing at that, but like the biggest one right there, right? I'm not that young, you know? I still know that. I still know that time print frame, right?
 
So you'll look at that and you'll be like, all right, then you see that. It's the same thing with Google now With Google. What ends up happening is people just saw, okay, these guys were at the top. That's what I'm seeing. And so with ai, the platform. It's just a recommendation platform at this point, and it's kind of like consultative.
 
So now instead of if I typing in, like give me, I can go to chat GPT, which a lot of our clients is ramping up, like we track our leads, people are using chai, GPT more like 90%, you know, like use chat, GT course perplexity. But like a lot of people using chat GPT to do their searches where they're just like, Hey, give me like, uh, you know, gimme the pricing for house washing in Charleston, South Carolina.
 
And they might have that, and then they, and then they might say, well, gimme companies that are in this price range. So. If you're gonna win with AI in terms of searches, in terms of being able to have customers find you, you have to provide the most context, right? Talk about the equipment that you're using, talk about your unique process of how you may clean a roof, how you clean a driveway, how you clean a house, what type of house siding are you cleaning, right?
 
What type of, are you mainly commercial? Like what kind of commercial jobs can you go ahead and you have a hot water unit? You have a reclamation unit, those are things that will differentiate you. That if you don't say that on your website, when AI platforms are crawling this, then I might say something like, as a customer, the old journey of how I used to go on Google would be pressure washing companies near me.
 
And I'm not saying Google's not going away anytime soon, but what I'm saying is that people would be like, I'm gonna see the reviews, click on it, you know, and I have it there, right? And I have to do my own research. I have to go look at their website, all of that. With ai, it consolidates that process, right?
 
People are all about what? Convenience. So now if I just say pressure washing companies in, you know, this, this area right now, it gives a, it gives a list of those companies. The, the search doesn't stop there. Now I can ask, try GBT. You know, do you know the pricing of these companies? It's gonna give you the pricing and if it, if you're not, if your pricing's not displayed, then you're not gonna get shown.
 
Or it might say, which of these companies could clean a an epay deck? Right? Because we know Epay is like a specialty wood, which one can clean an Epay deck? And if you can clean Epay decks, but you don't say that on your website and you don't say the factors. Any of that, you don't provide context. You're getting left out on that.
 
'cause now it's like this company mentioned it on their website, they clean EPA decks, right? Yeah. And then let's take it even step further to say like, well, which company would you choose between this one and this one? They might say, well, we would choose this company because they have this many reviews on their website.
 
They talk about how they use this treatment with their EPAY stuff. We didn't hear that from this other company that they do that. You might. And also this other company offers a three year warranty that they had that we saw on their website. We didn't know about these guys, clean epay, but we don't know if they offer a warranty.
 
So I think the safest choice for you would be this company because they have a warranty. This is their process, and they talk about how they specialize in Epay decks. And so the more context you give your customers, the better that you'll win in this new future of ai. 'cause now AI can grab this information at a fingertip.
 
For the customer and our customers. A more informed customer. Now they're not just a kind of customer where they're just like, they're gonna do the research. We're getting smarter and smarter customers now. Right? So that's, you have to go ahead and adjust for that time period. So, am I hearing on this, am I hearing that really the content that you have on your website, so I remember website content was all about keywords.
 
Keywords. Keywords. Keywords. There's like regurgitation of keywords on every single page. Every single page. Over and over and over and over again, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, but am I hearing that now with ai, because it is literally crawling all the information that you have on your website, that it is more important for us now to have websites that have really crafted, curated content.
 
That is specific, like, like using proper industry terms and like really using, like being very descriptive about how we are doing things. Is that what I'm hearing? That is what you're hearing. That is what you're hearing because you gotta think about it. Maybe 10 years ago Google's algorithm wasn't as smart.
 
It's just, it's just the truth, right? Yeah. Like so what they did in order for their algorithm to be able to gather context is what they had to go ahead and look at different keywords to be able, and like a different page should be like, okay, we're looking at these different keywords and we can summarize what this page is about.
 
Just like how this chat GPT, you don't think that Google's algorithm has this. Same type of technology that's used on perplexity, Claude, you know, all these different AI platforms that they're not using within their algorithm. And then also, you gotta think this is the dumbest the internet and AI will ever be.
 
So they're only going to gather more and more and more and more context. Mm. And so if you just have a page that has misinformation on there, if you have a page that doesn't talk about industry terms, whatever it is, then you will get left behind. And so that's why I say for a lot of our clients, when I look at their websites, like, dude, you like, you wanna rank in Atlanta, you got 20 reviews and you only got five pages on your website.
 
And it's like, well work off my website. I have right now. It's like, nah, man, I can't, right? Like you just, you don't have enough of the, you know, which we do for our own clients, right? Like we, we'll have like a two hour onboarding with them. I'm not trying to shield any of our service or anything, but I'm saying that like, what I do is that for our clients to get as much context, we'll have a two hour onboarding talk about every single process that they do.
 
Yeah. Roof cleaning. Driveway. Cleaning. House washing. We wanna know the type, we wanna know the process. We wanna know the pricing. We wanna know if you have any discounts, any bundles. We want to know the type of equipment you're using for it. We wanna know how many years you've been in business. We wanna know your unique mechanisms.
 
What makes you different than the other company next door? Right? Because once you differentiate yourself like that, then Google can look with their helpful content update and they say, okay, this actually, this content's better than this one. So do keywords matter as much? No, because Google is much smarter at gathering context.
 
Yeah. You know why I love this, what we're talking about right now, because, and it really does correlate back to the conversation we were having about the new startups and the experienced companies and things like that. Mm-hmm. Like the way that the algorithm is working now and you know, the content needing to be very more authentic and true and not just like that, that, that, that Right.
 
Yeah. To me, that does actually raise professionalism in the industry. Mm-hmm. Because if you wanna show up in the chat, GBT, you know, answer. Right? Yeah. You need to have these things and you need to know what to build and what to say, and you need to actually know your industry and know how you perform the services and how to describe them and, and all of the, you know, ins and outs, it's like, I love that.
 
Yeah, I do see that as a huge benefit of what we're talking about right now, so, mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I had never thought about that before and I'm really glad that you shared that with us because of course, it's got me thinking about things a lot differently. Yeah. So, okay. So I understand how AI is working as compared to like typical like older Google searches and things like that.
 
Mm-hmm. Um. What are the most successful ways that you have found, let's just stay in that zero to 500,000. Mm-hmm. What are the most successful ways that you have found to help your clients generate leads? The most successful way that I've helped them generate leads is going to, it just really depends, once against you on their market, right?
 
So lemme give you some scenario, lemme give you some scenarios. If I have a client, for example, that is like, Hey man, I'm at the 200, $250,000 range. And a lot of these guys I might say like, Hey man, I've been in business for even six years. You know, I've been in business for six years and I just, I've never done any digital marketing like that.
 
Or I've tried this company and I've used that and let's say they're in Orlando. I'm not gonna tell this guy website, SEO stuff, right? Because he needs leads. Now I'm gonna be like, dude, you need to go ahead and run some Google ads. You know what I mean? Or you need to go ahead and capture demand. You have, you have about a thousand to $2,000 that you can go ahead and spend.
 
And so from us, what we do is we, every client situation's gonna be unique. 'cause like if somebody that was like one of the big, like even for you, like you came to us and you were like, Hey, I'm trying to do this. I might look at your market and say. Well, maybe Google Ads is not the best route for you because you've been in business for 26 years.
 
So for you, you could probably Dom dominate more with your SEO and your online presence even more because you already have that momentum. You already have that domain age. So every client and every business is going to be different, and I think that's what guys have to take into account is that your chapter five is not, is not the same.
 
You know, your. Your chapter five is not somebody else's chapter 18, whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm. So the current place that you're at right now, you may not need to do what somebody else is doing. And so what I tell guys all the time is I just say, you need to once again look at your market and we help guys identify that, you know, like look at your market and we'll be best for you.
 
'cause if I'm in Drop in Missouri, as I mentioned earlier, before. I may be able to just do website, SEO if I'm at the 150,000 range, because there may only be 10 pressure washing businesses out there. And so I might have a way for me to go ahead and compete to where if I'm running Google Ads, there's only 150,000 people out in that area, Google Ads is not gonna do as well because I have to wait for the demand of people.
 
And so there's different ways that you have to go ahead and look at your market and say. All right, then. What's the best strategy for this client? Or what's the best strategy for my business? Which is why I always say number one thing is look at your demographic. Look at your population. Yeah. Look at your total addressable market, and that's how you're gonna determine what marketing you're gonna be able to go ahead and do for your business.
 
I love that. And, um, the total addressable market thing, did you, did you learn that from the Mastermind or is that something when Dalkey covered that, that you kind of, you already knew about? I kind of already knew about, but we'll say this, but I'll say this. He gave me a, a much better formula for how to calculate that.
 
Yeah. And then it also made us significantly better. Whenever we were, whenever we were going about doing it for our client, looking at their market, it, it made it significantly easier for me to go ahead and understand what we need to do. So, yes, I knew a little bit about it. 'cause I was like, you know, in digital marketing it's like, okay, how many clients can I have?
 
In the pressure washing industry. Right. But the way that he broke it down, I was like, okay, man, this actually, I love the method of how I can go ahead and do this not only for our, you know, business, but also for businesses that we, you know, execute these services for. That's why I think the Mastermind has been such killer for this, personally, me as a digital marketing company, because I get to kind of see what you guys are going through, right?
 
Like, as you know, in the industry. And also I get to learn about like. Different strategies about selling, you know, how to talk about selling, uh, you know, different methods of how you can buy other businesses, right? It doesn't have to just always mean outright buying other business. There's different means which they discuss there, which I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense.
 
So there's a lot of stuff that I've learned that's helped me, you know, enhance my knowledge and help our clients. Um, you know, when it comes to executing marketing or when they just ask us about advice anyway, right. For anything. Yeah, I know I, yes, 100%. And I can imagine that you hear it all if you are kind of interviewing your clients on the level that you described earlier, like you probably, you probably have such a good understanding of the industry above and beyond a lot of us.
 
'cause you're hearing it from so many different clients, right? Yeah. And if you're asking those questions, I mean, honestly, you could be a very integral. Part of, and, and I never really thought about that angle before that. Yeah. You, you, you probably hear it all. Mm-hmm. You know, you know what all of our struggles are.
 
So what, what are like the top struggles that gimme like some common threads? I'll give you the top three that already know right now. So like from zero to 500,000, there's only two main problems that guys have. Okay? Number one, their admin is messed up. And what I mean by their admin is messed up. They don't have somebody answering the phones.
 
They're the one sending out the invoices. So I always say you need to have that admin advantage when you go to the zero to 500,000. Like if you're gonna get to that, if you to have a million, you need to have the admin. Because you're not gonna be able to go ahead and like be on the trucks, send the invoices, and as much as you say, Hey man, I'd like to do the admin stuff and I'll have the text work, you're still gonna have to sell.
 
You know what I mean? Yeah. And like if you don't have that office admin, when the client complaints, my plans are, my plans died. Like that shouldn't be you as a one that should be addressing that with the, with the customer. That should be your, your lead tech or somebody else that's going on that property and talking with that customer and making things right.
 
But your office manager. Or the person that you have in the office is first taking that, addressing their concerns, scheduling the guys to go out there and do whatever they need to do, not you. Right. So that's the first thing is the admin advantage. Like usually guys do not have that. And that's the biggest struggle that I see that guys have with that number one.
 
Number two is just hiring, 'cause I talk about admin advantage is just hiring, like when it comes to hiring, being able to hire for help. Guys are like, oh, Jonathan, I just lost three of my guys. Like right now. You know? And they go in the busy season with that. They either, they overwork their guys, they don't train their guys enough, they're trying to fire them.
 
They say, I can do it myself. And they just find themselves in this perpetual loop of staying between 200 to $350,000. And they don't ever plateau from that. 'cause if you probably know this sheet, like if you're gonna ever cross 250,000 in yearly revenue, like you cannot, and pressure washing, at least you cannot.
 
I just have not seen a business, and maybe somebody will comment on this podcast and be like, that guy was wrong. But I've just never seen a business where they've done like 400 thou, 300 to 400,000 just themselves. Unless they have a super specialty business. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I'd say like 98 to 99% of guys are not gonna reach half a million just doing the work themselves.
 
Yep, 100%. There's only so much you can do, and you're right. You have to start to build the team out and it's funny that you say that. My very first hire outside, well, first were technicians. Mm-hmm. Hiring techs to start to get me off the truck. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, hiring techs. And then, um, and then my first admin position was just a general admin office manager.
 
She did everything. She did QuickBooks. She wrote the work orders for the day. She answered the phones. She deposited the checks, she paid the bills. She did everything. Um, I miss her dearly, by the way. But anyway, she, she, but she did everything. And then, then as the company started to grow, then that role was divided up into more roles, uhhuh, you know, and that's really how you're building the team out.
 
But also my second, it was text first, hiring technicians first, then it was the admin, and then it was sales. And that was the hardest position for me to let go of was sales. Sales. Yeah. I love, I loved it, but when I sat down and I wrote down how much time I was spending on it, and there's time that I had, I needed to be doing other things.
 
Mm-hmm. It was like a no brainer. The, the writing was on the paper. I needed to hire somebody to do sales. And that was, that was, um, that was a big game changer for me. And I could have never done it. I would've been. I mean, if I didn't have people doing sales for me now, I mean, there's no way we would lose so many leads.
 
I mean. You know, so anyway, um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of the, the kind of the way that I got into building the team out. But you are absolutely perfectly hundred percent right. I think I, I think you said a per, I I think, I think you said, 'cause that's what I was gonna say. The guys that get the 500,000 to a million is usually gonna be like the sales process.
 
Having a sales team in that, in that order, and not necessarily getting more leads. But doing more with the leads you already have, right? Yeah. Conversion. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Extracting more value from them because guys are at 500,000 to a million. The reason why they don't hit seven figures is because they're not extracting enough from their, and they're losing.
 
Not only are they losing leads, but they're also like, um, they're also not converting, you know, the. One time customer that they had into a customer three or four more times, right? So, yeah. Yeah. So, um, such good stuff, Jonathan. I could keep going and going, but I think we need to start to cut it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
 
I think there's just been a lot of gold here and you've taught me so much, and I love just having, because I, I'm not gonna lie to you, and I get on the phone and get involved in these marketing calls and I don't. I'm not really involved in this, in my company, but mm-hmm. I do try to pay attention, um, but they speak a language that I don't speak.
 
Mm-hmm. But everything that you and I have talked about today, I completely wanna under 100% understand what you're saying. Mm-hmm. And you've given me, given me a lot of ideas too, but I really appreciate that. Mm-hmm. I, I appreciate you speaking my language as the business owner. Um, of course. So I just wanna give you props for that.
 
I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And, and like I said, I've been in your guys' shoes before running a junk removal, like kind of business with that kind of stuff. So it was, uh, kind of getting it from the ground up and doing, kind of going through those phases. So yeah, I try to take a. What people try to make digital marketing too complex or just anything like too complex.
 
Like if I, if I tried to have you explain window cleaning or pressure washing, you probably do it very easy to me because you know what you're doing. Right, right. Because you can, I can explain it to you easy when somebody starts to sound complex and they're like, well you gotta do, they probably don't know what they're doing.
 
Right. So, yeah. I really appreciate that. Um, oh, and I have just one funny for you 'cause it came up of course. See my hat A plus Pro Services Inc. Yes. Yes. So we, the, the tagline is we are so experienced that our business name came from being first in the Yellow Pages. Oh, okay.
 
Oh, man. Actually, every time, Hey, it's a differentiator. Yeah. Yeah. None of my competitors can go in the room in a b and I group or whatever and say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh Lord. So anyway, I just thought I'd add that in because I think you called it actually, um, you called it something different. Yellow books.
 
Yellow books. Yellow books. I called it Yellow Books. They, I'm kind aging myself a little bit, you know, like, I, I love that. No, I think it's hilarious. Oh God. So, um, yellow Pages. Yeah. Yellow Pages. I said Yellow books. Yeah. Yellow Pages. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Mm-hmm. This was an awesome conversation.
 
I could keep talking to you. I hope to have you back on again soon. Yeah, of course. Um, and I look forward to seeing you the next mastermind and all the huge activities next month. Yeah. Next month may. You got it. Yeah. You got it. So, um, everybody, again, thanks to Jonathan Henderson, pressure washing marketing pros, and it's been awesome, Jonathan.
 
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Sheila. Hello, my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
 
And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
 
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period. Paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
 
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
 
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
 
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
 
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
 
And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
 
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
 
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with John Eastty of Perfect Angle Studios, a videographer and visual storyteller whose career started in high school when he took a video production class, got a business permit, and immediately began booking wedding videos. Over the past two decades, John has grown that early hustle into a professional video business serving clients in both the Northeast and South Florida, with work spanning weddings, conferences, expos, and commercial projects. 
 
What makes this episode especially useful for home service owners is that the conversation is not really about weddings or cameras. It is about marketing, trust, and showing up in a way that helps customers choose you faster. John and Sid dig into why video matters so much now, how even simple phone-shot content can outperform polished but empty marketing, and why owners should stop overthinking social media and start answering real customer questions on camera. They also talk about AI versus real content, how to think about authenticity, and why the best marketing comes from genuinely wanting to help the customer win. It is a practical episode for any business owner who wants to build trust, stand out online, and create better content without making it more complicated than it needs to be. 
 
Resources
Perfect Angle Studios
Light It Up Expo
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the Wild Journey of Entrepreneurship.
Let's dive in.
Hey, my friends, it's Sid with the huge Transformation Show. Thanks for taking your time to listen. This one's, this one's interesting and fun. I'm talking to somebody that's not in the home service industry at all. Matter of fact, they started their career as a wedding photographer, wedding videographer.
Now they have a professional video crew. But the way John thinks my guest is John Easty, the way he thinks and his bias for action and his very focused desire to serve his customer at a very high level is gonna be very insightful. To everybody and well, I'll tell you the rest on the episode. I hope you enjoy this conversation with John and learn a ton from it.
There's some great practical takeaways that'll help your business. With that, let's jump into our episode and conversation. Meet John Easty. Hey everybody, it's Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, and we've got another great episode today. I've got my friend John East Easty, Easty, I'm saying it right, right, Easty.
Exactly, yes. Okay. Cool. In my head, I'm, I'm slightly dyslexic and I always wanna say Etsy and I know that's not right 'cause it's not Etsy Easty. Um, but John's got a professional videography company. He is Perfect Angle Studios, and he's in the South Florida area. I know you go back and forth for the, you know, the northeast, um, to South Florida.
But I, before we go any further, I know one of you guys listening or you're thinking. Sid, this is a show about home service businesses and power washers and doing that stuff. Why do you have a wedding photographer on or a photography company? Guy and I, and I will tell you why in advance and then we're gonna get into the conversation is number one, uh, John has been to the huge convention a couple of times.
John has done video work for some of our industry leaders like Ryan Lee that does, uh, lighting secrets and. Also, John, you've got some really keen insight into visual storytelling that we can all use, and then mostly your mindset and your bias for action. And I take it from the very first conversation we had.
So that's where we're gonna start. If I recall correctly, we talked about a year, maybe a year and a half ago, we were looking at coming to the huge convention. We were talking about different videography needs, and I asked you how you got started and you're like, Hey, I took a videography class in high school.
And most people that would take a class like that would go, oh, this is a cool camera. I'm gonna go start shooting stuff. And you said, I went immediately and registered a business license so I could shoot wedding videography. And so that's where I want you to start. And tell me about like, why did you start a business right away?
Why were you thinking that and how did you even learn how to run a business in high school? Yeah, good questions. And uh, you have a fantastic memory for that. Uh, it, all of that is correct. So when I was 16, I took a video production class. Uh, wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life, uh, as far as my career.
Like most 16 year olds. 16, yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I always had an entrepreneurial. Mindset When I was a little kid, uh, I started writing business cards, printing business cards for neighbors, and I had it in my head that this was gonna be a great business. And, uh, I employed my grandfather, uh, my grandmother, my brother, and my babysitter.
Uh, that was when I was about seven or eight. And, uh, it, it didn't last that long. I had to fire my grandmother. Um, she had dementia and, uh, it just wasn't working out. And then my mom told me, look, you really can't fire your grandmother with dementia. Uh, so I learned a great business lesson right from there.
You gotta be kind to your employees. So I hired her back on, but the business didn't last too long. So years later, you know, at 16, uh, I just always wanted to work for myself. So I was working at typical high school. Job. I was a busboy in a restaurant and uh, the first day of this production class, the teacher told us, look, you guys can make a thousand dollars a pop filming people's wedding videos.
And I thought, man, you know, how many nights at the restaurant I'd have to grind to be able to make a thousand dollars? You know, at that age it sounds like an impractical number. Yeah. So I went to the town hall. I got a business permit, which I didn't really need. But, uh, I started advertising, wedding videography, uh, and that teacher was so kind.
He let me use the school's equipment even when we went home for the summer, use the school's equipment. Uh, and I had a hundred percent, uh, free, no overhead. The first two years, uh, all the school's equipment was mine to. Uh, I started contacting people whose engagement announcements were in newspapers back then.
That would be announced. Yeah. I'd write them letters. I'd send them a DVD. Uh, and that had a couple videos that I had filmed, uh, just as a practice, a teacher's wedding, a friend's wedding, a friend of my brother's. And so I had a portfolio told 'em, look. 250 bucks. I'll film your wedding. Uh, I'm working closely with a school advisor.
It'll help you. You're getting a cheap video. I'm working with an advisor, helps me, people wanna help out a kid. Uh, and so that's how I did my first view. And then after that, I just stopped telling people I was 16 and it helped that I looked older and. You know, my parents had to drop me off I think for my first wedding.
And then after that I got my license and I just, you know, it was actually kind of irritating to me how young I was because I wanted people, I always wanted to be older, Uhhuh. And so in April of this year, it'll be 20 years in business, 20 years since I started that business. No kidding. Okay. Great job.
That's cool. So I think, so there's so many things about that that are interesting to me. Not that you started business in high school, but that you actually. Looked for a, like a really good lead source. I mean, what's a better lead source than people putting their wedding announcement in the paper or wherever they post 'em now and just, and just calling them.
Did you, did anybody suggest this? Did you just come up with it? Like, I don't know, how do you find people getting married? No, I, I used to like to read the newspaper actually as a kid, which I think gives you some insight now into, uh, what a nerdy, uh, student I was reading the newspaper and going to apply for business permits.
Uh, I also liked to have fun, but, uh, I really was business minded. I, in fact, I convinced all the, all my friends in school, particularly in study hall, said, look, I've got a business you all are going to need. College business credit for working, you know, some type of job, an internship. Yeah. Why don't you work for me, uh, unpaid as interns and I need you to mass mail out all these envelopes.
You know, I'd start with the local paper and then it was like all, any newspaper I could get my hands on. Then the online editions, look up their addresses and have all these other kids stuff the envelopes for me and mail them out. Um, and I think it just came from happening to notice, look, people are engaged.
They're announcing it in the newspaper. I don't even know if they do that anymore, but 20 years ago they did. Yeah. Uh, and it kind of launched from there. Uh, but you know, the, the key in this I think was that I didn't just want to get to that, you know, charging a thousand dollars that was like that, uh, that pie in the sky idea.
I wanted to do a really good job so that people. Couldn't tell that I was 16, that I was 17. Uh, I wanted people to have a professional experience, a red carpet, white glove experience, and that made me feel really good when people commended me for that and when it was something that was gratifying. It's their wedding.
It's something that hopefully is going to happen once in their lives and it's really meaningful to them. Okay, well, well, um, take us on a, on a journey from, you got your first few weddings, you got a car and a license, so your folks didn't have to drop you off to shoot the weddings and you've turned it into a business.
And you just mentioned it's been 20 years, so bring us up to speed and hit a couple of the key points along the journey. Yeah, I'll just give you a brief bio and touch on a couple of the, uh, career, uh, a little bit of the career trajectory in that. So I, I was born in a small town in Massachusetts. Grew up there.
Uh, I did missionary work in South America, uh, for most of my twenties. I loved to travel. Uh, been to more than 50 countries, a lot of them with my wife. I got married, uh, six years ago, and, uh, right around that time, uh, because I had spent so much time in South America, I acclimated to the climate and really craved that tropical.
A lifestyle. So, uh, when we got married I told my wife, Natasha, look, I can't do it in the northeast full-time anymore. Anyway, really like skiing, we're avid skiers. Mm-hmm. But, uh, besides that, I just can't take the dark and the cold. So let's go down to Florida. Let's check it out. We'll keep the business here.
Um, she started nursing school here in South Florida, uh, and ended up being a great experience. We settled here, but I, I just couldn't. Change my entire business. It's all established in the northeast, uh, principally around Boston. And, uh, I, it was slow going at first reestablishing here in South Florida. So I transitioned around that time about six years ago into commercial videography.
So I still do weddings. Uh, it's a good bulk of what I do, but probably about, uh, 50% of it. Now approaching that is commercial videography. So what that entails, as you mentioned in the intro, is conferences, expos, uh, a lot of businesses within the home service industry. I'm the preeminent videographer for the landscape lighting industry.
Mm-hmm. And a few other businesses within the green space. Okay. Okay, cool. So with the, let's let's step into, uh, commercial videography and things and, and like, not, not that we have a sales pitch, but like one of the things in your bio online is you're a visual storyteller and, you know, I'm in the home services.
Most people listening are, and there's a, a, i lemme just ask you this. What sort of advice or strategy would you suggest if you were advising home service businesses, um, to do. In today's media age to make sure that they have a leading edge or a competitive advantage. We're talking about video. Talking about photography.
Yeah. One thing that's in our favor is we are in the, the world's largest economy, you know, by far wealthiest civilization in the history of the planet. Um. And the US has the second highest number of visual viewers globally, which is interesting because there are several countries that are ahead of us by a lot in terms of population, and yet Americans consume more media than any other culture.
So we're accustomed to that. What does that mean for business? Well, it means that. The translation is people expect to see video when they're going to almost any website, uh, anywhere from window cleaners to HVAC to, uh, e even of course, a videographer. But any type of industry you can imagine, professionalism builds trust and credibility.
So better engagement of retention and conversion results come from having. Video on your website and your social media being regular on there. Uh, in fact, I have a few, uh, statistics here that I had looked up before, that short term video rises year over year by 12%, but global spending on digital visual advertising has actually tripled since 2019.
Uh, so it really is expanding. Mm-hmm. And what's interesting, one thing I found interesting is there's a, a chart that shows the steep rise in short form video marketing. Uh, but it actually is expected to level off in the next few years. And the reason is, uh, the reason it's not as vertical is that competitors of a business that aren't doing video.
Well, they've already been doing this for four or 5, 6, 10 years. Uh, they don't need to invest in this anymore. Uh, they already have a long history of that. So if we don't have video already, uh, we're behind. If we're not utilizing it, it's obvious that our competitors are so it, it's time to make use of that if we haven't already.
So really is, is, uh, for small business owner using video? Is that. Just to establish, you know, no, like, and trust. Is that, is that the medium now that is gaining you recognition and trust in your marketplace the fastest or like compared to photos or, mm-hmm. What is that? The why is that so much better? Well, we know that on website and landing pages, adding video can boost conversion rates by up to 84%.
So that much, yeah. Yeah. Damn. Okay. Compared to pages without video, and in fact, in preparation for this podcast, I did an informal poll, uh, of the huge convention. Some of the sponsors on there. I chose five at random. Yeah. To find out outta curiosity, how many of these sponsors have video on their front page?
Okay. Well, only two out of. The five that I chose, that random did. And these are companies from all over the country? Yeah. Uh, one of them had video that was in the banner that auto played. Uh, the other one didn't. So you also wanna have audio or auto, uh, play autoplay enabled because people are lazy. They want to have that just starting now.
The two videos that were on there were great. One was a really informative and well produced, um, testimonial video. You know, I'll get to that. Uh, but your question was specifically about basically what does, what function does video serve? So if you are in the home service industry, uh, one, it establishes credibility.
Uh, two establishes and builds trust. Uh, and three, it's, uh, you're putting a face to the name. It's not just a, a nameless entity. Now, you may get a lot of your business from referrals. And you may find, well, people don't really access my website. That's not that important. But how are you doing with social media?
It is really important to be on there because people think they're not gonna check out their plumber, their electrician, their window washer, but. People are on social media for all sorts of things. Uh, we know how much time the average person spends in social media today. All of us are, you know, kind of addicted to it.
Uh, and for especially Gen Z and beyond, they're actually getting a lot of their recommendations from what's on social media. Uh, so this could be a few years ahead, but posting three to five times. Uh, a day across platforms is the gold standard. Yeah. Is every business capable of that? No. But just having a regular presence can show people that you care about what their customers see in you.
Um, you know, there was, uh, you had Marcus Sheridan, uh, on. Uh, a few weeks ago, or maybe it was a while back, but he had talked about the four pillars of known or trusted brand, and he mentioned show by video what others aren't willing to show. So really sets your brand apart. Yeah. Yeah. When you said cross posting, uh, three times a day on platforms, you mean like each platform?
Instagram, Facebook, yeah. Take like whatever, three posts daily on each. Yes, it's best, it's best to cover all of them. Yeah. Um, you know, Facebook targets a different generation mm-hmm. Than Instagram does. Uh, TikTok you know, I poo-pooed that at first for when it first came out, but, um, one statistic from a couple years ago indicated that, I don't actually remember the exact number, but a high percentage, like two thirds of.
Gen Z gets restaurant recommendations from TikTok. From TikTok Really? Instead of going on Google, you know, which maybe you and I would do Google Maps, you know, what's the best Mexican place around me? Yeah. They go to TikTok for it. Uh, so as a search engine, basically. As a search engine. No kidding. I, I actually have not heard that at all.
That's really interesting. Yeah. So it's good to have some experience doing that and already have the brand, uh, in that trajectory for utilizing whatever media we have, whether it's, uh, YouTube videos. I mean, there's some great window cleaners, pressure washers out there that have an amazing YouTube presence.
You can almost watch it as like reality tv. Yeah. And then for others in the home service industry. Now, uh, a large portion of what I do is conferences. So, you know, you take an organization like Huge, you want to attract as many different people as possible, which they've done a great job over the years. I mean, you have people for huge that recognize it's so important for networking that they're willing to sleep in their truck.
Overnight if they can't afford a hotel room, they're using the last marketing dollars they have to go there. Well, my goal when I'm doing conferences and expos is I wanna maximize the attendee and sponsor experience by not pestering people for interviews or testimonials. If the conferences doing it well, then.
All I have to do is ask people, Hey, how do you feel about being here at Huge, being here at X, Y, Z? Uh, yeah. And people rave about it, and that makes my job easier. So I, you know, with conference videos, I, I want people to recognize the value that they're going to get from their investment. And I also want to let sponsors know, Hey, you could be missing an investment opportunity if you are not here.
So how about some videos specifically for these sponsors to recognize what they're getting out of it? Yeah. Yeah. So I like the way you think, and I mentioned that earlier and it just, in this example, talking about when you go and you do a video for the conference, you are thinking about the results of the video or the impact of the video on the attendees or the future attendees to attract them and stuff like that.
So let's take that same thought process and put it on, you know, like Jeremy who has, you know, tri-state power washing. Uh, close to Chicago. And he, but he's like, he's like, dude, John, I'm way too busy to spend a lot of time on video. What's the, what's the low hanging fruit? What's the minimum that I, I need to do?
And what kind of content? Like, I know we do stuff all the time, but I don't have, you are like, what kind of content am I gonna film? I don't have ideas for that. Do I have to make a movie? Mm-hmm. Yeah, good question. So, uh, off the top of my head, you said, um, pressure washing, right? Sure. Okay, so pressure washing.
First thing that comes to mind is, uh, certain homeowners are wary of pressure washing because they wonder what damage could it do to my plants? What could it do to, um, you know, my roof, I have a specialty roof. Um. And pressure wants a pressure washer wants to get ahead of some of those frequently asked questions.
There's some content right there, and the good news is, and I'm gonna do a bit of a reveal here, you do not always need to hire a professional videographer. For every video that you make. In fact, it's not cost effective to have me come out and shoot some of this social media content. People do connect with authenticity.
So if you're in your truck and you're about to head out to a job, why don't you take. 30 seconds. Who cares what you look like, what time of day it is? Just do a quick video because something is better than nothing and say, Hey, we're heading out to this job today. It's, uh, in this part of town, and they've got some beautiful, I don't know, Spanish moss trees.
They've got these oak trees in the neighborhood. And one thing that always comes up is people ask, what about the plants? Well, here's what I do. I put a, a plastic coating, uh, over everything, over all the foliage and the vegetation before I even begin. I wanna make sure that those plants are protected. And in this part of town, people are very conscious of their topiary, of their lawn.
Uh, and so, you know, just a 32nd video on that. Now, I'll give you a few tips. You want it to be, uh, well lit. So it's worth investing in a, a small video light if you're gonna be shooting with your phone. Um, people can, by the way, I'll give you my email address after that, after this, and they can, uh, email me questions and I have no problem sending specific gear recommendations for a DIY starter kit, uh, because I found that with clients in the past when I've told them.
I may not be a good fit for you right now. Uh, they remember the education that I give them and they can come back to me in the future. Yeah. Uh, even if they don't, at least I'm trying to help somebody, uh, start off. So if you don't know what to post or how much something is better than nothing, just make it well lit.
Um, you really want to show who you are as a business owner, uh, and try to keep it con, um, uh, a little bit condensed. Uh, we don't wanna ramble on no ramble right now. No, we're not. Yeah. Okay, good, good. So I, you kinda combine two things. One, you combine the, the visual and how to, but you mentioned, um, Marcus Sheridan earlier.
And his first book, they ask you answer is all based on like, what are the, the most common questions you get for your business? And then just answer them clearly, honestly, transparently on your website. Now, when he wrote that he was doing on blog, but you could take that exact same strategy and you use an example.
It's like people ask you, what about my specialty roof? What about the plants? If you've got, you know, power washing, window clear, whatever type of company, you just go, what are the most common things people ask? And. Shoot a 32nd video about it. One minute maybe. Is that, is that where you're going? Exactly.
Think about it from as you would with any other aspect of your business. How would I wanna be treated? How would I feel? What is the customer going to think of, um, before and after transformations? With pressure washing, uh, short reveal videos of before and after an installation time lapse, uh, if you're installing something or, or just a time lapse of you working, um, customer testimonials.
Now that can be a little bit tricky as you're starting out. You may be a little bit more reticent to ask somebody to appear on video. Yeah. But what if it's someone that you've been servicing for a number of years and you've already established a relationship with them? Uh, so, you know, getting a quick ten second, uh, video testimonial of them compiling it into a 32nd reel where it's three, four or five of them together.
Um, you know, another thing that people use me for video for is training or internal documentation for their crews. They wanna ensure consistency in their quality. Um, and that's valuable for growing businesses with multiple crews. So video doesn't necessarily have to be on the consumer side as far as your clients goes.
It can also be internal. Yeah. Yeah. Um, question for you in, in video world or you know, what, for social media, for the business perspective, not what you do, but AI versus real. Gimme your take. Uh, as far as creating the video, yes. Okay. Or creating video images. Uh, what are, what are you seeing, what's in the marketplace?
I see a lot of people that are making, you know, they AI images and stuff and slap it on their social media. What sort of effect does that have on the customer, the potential customer and their trust level? I if you're only using ai, I mean AI as we've, you know, talked about probably ad ad nauseum at this point, most of us is an excellent tool.
It can, you know, my wife is in, um, nurse practitioner school right now, and it's helping her with the a PA format of her papers. Oh, wow. So it's a great tool for that, and the professors understand that and they recognize it's being used. Um, now for us, when we go to a website and it's very clearly all done by ai, what does that tell you about the person who's created the website?
It shows that there's a lack of a personal touch if you're utilizing ai. Uh, as I am as well, uh, in my editing process to speed it up to accomplish things that it might take you hours and hours to do, and now you can do it in a few seconds, well then that's great. You're using that tool properly if you're using it in place of your own mind, of your own consideration for, uh, the client.
Then people can tell that we're still at a point where people can tell AI generated images and videos over anything else. So it's as simple as if you're walking down the street and you see a truck with an amazing wrap on it and it's clean and you know, even the license plate doesn't have dirt on it, you think?
That is someone that cares about their business and if they care about their truck that much and their crew cares about the truck, then they're gonna care about my property. Well, similarly, it's that effect, seeing someone's social media, someone's website, if they care enough to have some personal content on there and about me, section for the owner of this, uh, pressure washing business.
A um, frequently asked questions from this window cleaner. Uh, then it shows me that they actually care enough to invest time in their business. Yeah, no, I agree for sure. And um, also like the, a, a lot of guys are hesitant to pull out the phone and video themselves and be on camera for their own business and, and it, but if you are the leader of a business, if you're the owner of the business, I think the benefit can't be overstated to show you and the authenticity.
And you know, just being present and speaking about your company or speaking to customer's needs. So what, I mean, what's your advice to somebody that just doesn't wanna be on camera or they don't like it? They're embarrassed. Uh, well, that's most of us. My, my first comment would be, okay, you're a normal, humble person.
Uh, because, uh, not too many, um, people without a big ego like to be filmed. None of us like the sound of our own voices. Uh, it's uncomfortable. Um, and you know, just as a side note, I have had times where. Uh, I, I'll be doing interviews of a CEO or a board member, um, for a corporation, and I've had some people at the outset tell me.
This is gonna be no problem. I speak in front of thousands of people. We're gonna get this done fast. And that's a red flag when someone says that to me. I know it's gonna be take after take after take, because their attitude is that they've done it all before, but as soon as the camera starts rolling and if there's a teleprompter, or if there isn't, the lights are on, people start to sweat.
So, you know, my goal is to make someone feel. Comfortable with that. Uh, but when I have somebody that's the opposite, they say, oh, I'm not good at this. This is not what I do best. I realize I've got someone that I can work with there, uh, because they've acknowledged it's unnatural. It's unnatural to talk to a camera.
Um, and if you care though about. Your customers and about your business that is going to come through. There is just absolutely no. Um, there's nothing that can replace something that's genuine. Um, I think you had a speaker at Huge last year or the year before that said, belief is transf. Preferable. Yes.
Um, and, and, you know, empowering others. But you can see that now if your first few videos, you don't like the way you look or the way you sound, it's not about that. It's about the authenticity. If you have content that's really aimed to help your, your, um, target market. Now if you are a, you know, guy just starting your own pressure washing business, if you're just starting off in the landscape lighting industry, that might be the homeowners.
If you are a board member operating this massive convention and you want to keep attracting. Uh, sponsors, it's the same thing. If you care about them, you're gonna show the value. So don't be afraid. The first view. Now, a couple years from now, you might go back and feel like you wanna delete that. Maybe keep it for posterity to laugh at yourself in the future, but something's better than nothing.
Uh, it it's just good to have consistency. Yeah. Have you seen, um, I think it was on the, the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, ed, ed Sheeran, and they're talking about, and you know, the, the comment was like, you're so good. You're so, like, you've, you do this amazing music. You do all this stuff. And he goes, you guys, like, I sucked at the beginning.
And he pulls out his phone and shows a video of him playing and singing his song, like when he started and it was gross. Like, it was, it was like, this is hard to listen to and you can't believe that it's. Someone like Sharon that's at the top of the game and he just goes, you're gonna sink when you start.
Just get started. Yeah. And you get better as you go along. Like if you care, you're gonna get better. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Well, let's, let's circle back around as we wrap up. So it, we've kinda embedded it throughout our conversation, but if you had, um. Someone, a home service, they come to you and they're like, Hey, I need help setting up video.
Like I, I'm on a thin budget. I probably can't afford you now, but I hope to in the future. But like, gimme a bullet point checklist of what can I do to get started and what do I need to post? How do I edit this shit? Like how do we, how do we roll? What are you gonna advise somebody to get? Just get started.
Okay, so the first thing, if you're not at the point where you can consider a professional videographer, uh, then lighting is the most important element that sets professional videos apart from amateur. Always use, utilize natural light. So have a window in front of you so you have light on yourself. Uh, use what's called neutral density filters on whatever lens you're using to compensate for bright daylight.
So a lot of our listeners will be outside. Presumably shooting video. So, uh, if you're in a sunny environment, you wanna use that nd neutral density filter to compensate for bright daylight. Make sure you have good quality audio as well. Always use a quality microphone. Don't just use your phone. Uh, they sell e even beginner kits that are actually pretty good now that you can get on Amazon.
Send me an email. You can run it by me. Ask, Hey, is this a good one or not? I'll just, I'll tell you yes or no. Um, now with AI Audio Enhancement, which is an excellent use of that tool, you can make cheaper microphones sound better, and that wasn't possible even a year ago. Uh, you can use your smartphone to record audio, clean it up with some software that takes a little bit of time.
I think it's better to just get the good quality gear ahead of time. Might cost you a few hundred bucks if that, and if you're on a much smaller budget. Start off a little bit lower and just kind of as you scale your business, scale what you're doing with your video output. Very cool. Speaking of that, when you talk about the, um, like get good audio, get a good microphone.
A couple years ago, somebody turned me onto the dj. I, um, lavalier the cordless laugh mics and I, I was so impressed and I keep it in my backpack all the time 'cause I record a lot of video and it's like this little thing. It's got two mics in there. Uh, but yesterday, so this weekend I'm, I'm flying to Nashville to go work on our mastermind and I always have this kit, so I do interviews and things at the same time.
My wife is going to Mexico and she's hosting and coordinating a Pilates retreat, and she said, Hey, can I take that microphone with me so I can, you know, record a couple of my classes for my people? I was like, no. You can't take my microphone, but I thought, well, I'll just go get her another one. And they're like 250 bucks.
Now, DJI has the mini version of this. It's 75 bucks. Mm-hmm. And it's high quality. So like you were, I was emphasizing your point, like it's not that it, you can start on a low, low budget and. Start doing some really good things. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, if you are at the point that you want to at least consider having a professional videographer, we would start off with a discovery call.
Um, if you just want me to show up and film something, my business isn't right for you. I take a personal interest in what my clients do. Um, I recently had a, uh, phone call from a prospective client who asked if I was available on a certain date. And I said, well, what's the project that changes the scope of my availability?
Yeah. Um, do I need other videographers? My team? Do I need to be there? And she was clearly annoyed and she's like, it's something about the launch of a, a brand of mushroom coffee. And I said, oh, well, you know, that's really interesting. I've heard about that. Uh, and I know mushrooms have a variety of health effects.
So, uh, what got you interested in starting the business? And she said, look, I just wanna know if you can film it and how much it's gonna be. And uh, I thought, you know what? After 19 years in business, I've got a sense of if I'm gonna accept someone as a client. Yeah. And this wasn't looking good. And I said, look, I know you're valuable.
Your, your time is valuable. Just a few more questions. Who's the target market? You know, she got exasperated and said, I don't know what this has to do with price. I just want to know your price. And I say that because. Uh, this isn't the the type of project I'm gonna take on. I have to care about my clients, who they're serving, uh, what they're doing.
It's not just about price. I want to know that as a creative, I can take on your project and I'm past that point in my business. I'm not taking on projects that aren't stimulating or that I know I. Can't help with, um, what's stimulating for me, it's helping someone grow their business or capture something meaningful.
Uh, and when it comes to corporate video, the reason I find it interesting is when I contribute something small to their visibility, their sales, whatever their objective is, I see that growth and that's really rewarding. I know video can do that. And it's honestly exciting to see what video can do as far as making a difference in someone's business.
Yeah. Okay. Well good. I think this is a good place to, to land the plane or land the drone. I didn't mention that you also are a drone pilot for your videography business, but, um, let's land it there because your, your. Mindset and your bias for action has led you into a great business. But a lot of this that I didn't realize when we started the conversation is your you Like you definitely have a keen desire to see your clients win, and I think that's a big part of your success, but it's also a good lesson for everybody that's listening.
Like if. If you, as a business owner and service provider, if your motivation is not just to get paid for cleaning something or get paid for doing a video, it's to see how you can impact the quality of life or business of your customer. That's gonna be a big win. And I love what you did with the mushroom coffee lady and just like, stick to your guns and go, Hey, let's, I have to ask you these questions because understanding if there's a, a, uh, client provider match is.
Almost as important or probably more important than just getting a client. So I really like that. I appreciate the time that you spent with me doing this and getting to know each other. And are you planning to be in Orlando at the huge convention this August? I am absolutely hoping to be there. Cool.
Okay. By the way, I know, uh, Ryan Lee, who you've done video work before, he's in Orlando in like two weeks or something. Yeah, March Lighting Secrets third, fourth, somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. Are you gonna be up there? I'll be there at the Light It Up expo. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Well, I appreciate it again and uh, until Orlando, thanks for being on the show.
Thank you, Sid. Have a great day. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes.
So it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter.
It's called A Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period. Paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
And scroll down and click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know. Of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
We'll see you on the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, Sheila Smeltzer sits down with James Riley of Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, a 13-year business owner in rural Tennessee who is pushing to break through the million-dollar mark. James shares one of the more honest and heartfelt growth stories in the series, explaining how he got into window cleaning almost by accident, bought a struggling route with barely any real customers, burned through his savings, and had to take a janitor job just to keep his family afloat while rebuilding the company from the ground up. What makes his story stand out is not just the grind, but the conviction behind it: James built the business with a long-term vision of creating one of the best places to work in his area and leaving behind something bigger than himself.
 
James and Sheila talk through the realities of scaling in a smaller market, dealing with new competitors, improving systems, and making the shift from owner-operator to actual business leader. They also get into employee retention, company culture, transparency, performance pay, coaching, and the challenge of not letting the owner become the bottleneck. Throughout the conversation, James makes it clear that his business is driven by faith, family, and service to people, and that perspective shapes everything from leadership to hiring to how he defines success. It is a strong episode for owners trying to push past a revenue ceiling while building a company with real heart.
 
Resources
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning Facebook
Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning Instagram
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
 
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
 
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the Wild Journey of Entrepreneurship.
 
Let's dive in.
 
Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer, your host and contributor. Today I'm interviewing James Riley. James Riley is from Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, and he is a 13 year company that is aiming to go to, aiming to hit a million dollars this year. So if you are in that space, if you are in that realm of size of business and you're looking to break through the ceiling of a million dollars, you wanna listen to this.
 
The cool part about this interview today is this is a little bit different. We talk about operations, we talk about sales, we talk about systems, but what you're gonna find from listening to this wonderful person, James Riley, is how much heart we should all aspire to have for our own companies. He 100% wants to just.
 
His goal is to just have the best place to work. He loves providing opportunities for people. And he loves people. Um, he's a very spiritual man. Um, and you'll see how that comes through to him, really crushing it in business. This is so cool. I love this stuff. You know, we all have our own individual and unique contributions and we can play that out however we want in our own companies, and I think it's really neat to, to experience the way that.
 
We're all doing it. So be an active listener. That is my, that is my wish for you today is to be an active listener. Listen to what we can learn from James Riley, and we are just here in every single interview to help you grow. Enjoy the show. Hey listeners, this is Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast.
 
Thank you for joining us today. Um, we're gonna have a nice conversation with James Riley out of Tennessee. Uh, James owns Upper Cumberland Window Cleaning, and he's been in the business for about 13 years, and, uh, just by getting a little soft opening with him before the recording today. Um, I really wanna get into James, uh, life in his 13 years.
 
He's right at that breaking the ceiling from 800,000 to a million dollars. And we wanna dive deep and see what's good, what's difficult, and what he thinks that he could have done differently so that we can help all of our listeners, um, avoid any pitfalls and, and learn from the show. So, hey, welcome James.
 
Well thanks. Thanks for having me. You are quite welcome. I'm excited for this. So we've met each other in the Mastermind and um, but we've never really gotten to know each other, so this is a great opportunity. Yeah. What better than this? Let's share with a lot of people. Yeah, sure. So James, tell us about Upper Cumberland and how you got started in the window cleaning business.
 
Okay. And all the other services that you do too, please. Okay. Yeah, sure. Well, how we got started about 13 years ago, I had a job. And I had a friend that, uh, acquired other businesses and, and everything, um, that I went to church with. And, and he approached me about window cleaning. I mean, where I'm at. Like I said, and I'm, I'm in the sticks of Tennessee.
 
I mean, we have served seven counties just to make up for not being the metro area. And two of those counties are probably one of the poorest counties. Well, anyway, he approached me and I turned him down window cleaning. I have fun at that. And well, he's very persistent. He offered me a free lunch. You know, I'm not a free Will Baptist, but I am a free Meal Baptist, so, okay.
 
I took him up on that free lunch and uh, he kind of talked me, he said, just go out with me and see what you think and anything. You know what, just go out with us and see what you think about it. And so I did that. I met him on a Saturday. Saturday morning. Really, really early. So we met about, um, I'd be at his house probably at three 30 in the morning.
 
Wow. From the get go. Okay. So we met up with people who were selling it, you know, they wanted to get an early start and, um, we went out on a route with them and, and I felt like the word gimme a commercial storefront, commercial storefront route, it was storefront routes at that time. All. And so I felt like Noah, when the Lord gave Noah a blueprint on how to build the art, he's given me one on how to, um, on this business.
 
He gave me a vision of about this business and where it's going to go. Um, so we met with him. We accepted it. I didn't have enough money to get him in, so he, he vows for me. Um, he actually bought the whole thing, so I was in debt to him. I thought this was something I could do on the weekends with my girls.
 
Okay. You know, um, to build work ethic and everything. And then, and, um, it didn't work out that way. I went to call one customers. I mean, they had a lot of ghost customers. I mean, they had about 200 something customers on, on file. We was lucky to have a hundred of them. Ah, I went to call 'em. They, we fired.
 
They had a bad reputation. Didn't know anything about it. Um, like I said, I've never bought anything like this before and he says, I'm out. I'm out of this. And. He gave me his portion. I had to pay him back. So you all heard about sids, um, eat macaroni and cheese and everything like that? Yeah. I had no money.
 
I, my savings count was empty. Nothing coming in. So, excuse my bil analogy. I ate beans and taters for, for six months. We got tired of that. We ate taters and beans. I mean, it was, it was that bad. And, um, but anyway, um. My wife was worried. Um, we got two girls at home and, you know, losing our insurance and everything, it, it was just a big mess.
 
Um, so it all worked out. I mean, I had some background in some, um, when I used to work in the dealership industry of, of, I started a big parts connection in the area and, um, from Knoxville to Nashville. Um, it's called Middle Tennessee Parks Connection. And I, you know, so I was always good at PR and. With customers and, and building that way.
 
But, um, never had my own business. Okay. And again, I just went with the, the vision the Lord's given me. We're still going through and I always tell my competitors until God stops, gimme visions, that's when I'll worry. And, but he's still, you know, I got a DD so I'm not one of those can read a book and, and, and really understand it without having to read it 10 times.
 
You know what I mean? So it's, it kind of makes it a little bit more difficult for me in the, in the business industry, um, on that end. Um, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of failures. We done. I mean, a lot of, a lot of wins and some losses of getting to this point. 13 years. Not everything is best. The struggle's real, Sheila.
 
It's real. The struggle is real is real. So, you know, I could see why my language, James, you're speaking my language. Yeah. I don't, I don't now I don't understand why businesses do not make it in the first five years. Yeah. You know, um, if you, if you're going to open up business. You can't be a know-it-all.
 
That's why, you know, that's one of the biggest rules. You can't think you have all the answers. Mm-hmm. Always. There's a scripture in the Bible says, surround yourself by men of oath. For they know the way of judgment. It's because they've been there and done that. Surround yourself by the people who's been in those positions and that's one thing I like about the huge and the Mastermind.
 
Yeah. What you're going through now, someone's already crossed that bridge. Yep. And they give you all the glue for all the tools and everything to get over that bridge easier. So 100%. Yeah. So you, you bought this business, um, which was, sounds like it was a pretty loose transaction. There was supposed to be 200 storefronts.
 
There was really only a hundred. No. Um, and how old were your daughters that you were trying to get 'em out there and teach 'em the work ethic and everything? Oh, well my oldest one's, she just turned 21 in November and my, my youngest one's getting ready. Uh, 17. So, you know, they were little girls. Yeah. They were like, yeah, 10 and 13, something like that, or Yeah.
 
Yeah. They're little girls for sure. Yeah. That is so cool. Um, do they have any, any role in the company now? Today? They do not. I mean, when we go, we have Indeed and everything. My youngest ones likes to come in here and hit the reject button. Other than that, they don't have any roles. Um, my oldest one, I think she's got her life going on in a direction and, and, and very blessed on that one.
 
But my youngest one, she's at that age where she really don't know what she wants to do. So yeah. She's 17. Yeah. We'll give her some grace. Exactly. She'll figure it out. Yep. Got a good dad, I can tell. Yeah. Um, so, okay, so what did you do? So you got this business, you started doing the storefronts. You're like, okay, this isn't even what it was supposed to be.
 
Um, so. In that first, I'm assuming there was a truck somewhere in the mix. You had a truck or, yeah. I mean, I didn't know what to expect with it. I bought this business, I mean, it came with an, an antique under pole water pit pole. Okay. It had screw on. Yep. Another little screw on. And man, it was, it was, it was tough.
 
I still have it, you know, that's an antique that's gonna be worth maybe some money in the window cleaning someday. I'll auction that thing off to. Someone probably for some big bucks, who knows. Yeah. You need to put it in the, um, the IWCA has a, um, a silent auction every year at the banquet. At the annual banquet.
 
They do not have this one, I guarantee you. Yeah. Pay big money for that, James. Yeah, it came with that and it came with the, it came with the computer, um, and a couple mops in a bucket. Okay. So it was me and a, and a Chevrolet Tracker vehicle. Okay. So let's fast forward. I mean, when did you start to, because I'm assuming, are you doing commercial still?
 
Storefronts you're doing residential Yeah. Residentials. Um, yeah, the whole nine yards. We're doing, you know, doing and, and you're doing soft washing, power washing, and I heard you say lights too. Yes. All right, so in these 13 years, you've grown it up to offer now this full menu of services, really, um, they're all very, quite complimentary to each other, especially in the access and the, the, the equipment and all that sort of thing.
 
Um, so how many trucks you have running now? What's your staff look like today? 13 years later? Right now I got five trucks and a, and a sales car. Okay. All right. Good. That's a nice fleet. Yeah. And, um, what's your sales team look like? Our sales team, I got one inbound sales person's been with us for a few years and just hired two outbound sales.
 
Okay. And these are in-house? They're in the office. They, they're in the out the outbound sales? Not as much. They're out there getting. Got it. All right. So they're doing like door to door and stuff like that. Their offices are vehicles. Okay. All right. I love it. And are they focused primarily on the storefronts and the commercial or are they also doing that for residential?
 
All the above. Yeah. Residential, they're focused on, um, residential, commercial, um, HOAs, property managers, you know, um, going through all the trade shows they can go to and, and. Um, chambers and Cool. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Okay. So, um, and then in your current market, I'm assuming that there's been growth because you said that you were in kind of like poor, poor market.
 
Um, as far as Yeah. Uh, yeah. See I'm not livelihood and all that sort of thing, so I'm assuming that there's been some growth there has. Yeah. Like I said, it, it, when I first started, it didn't even pay for myself. It was pathetic. And, um, it's grown for the, over the years. Um, like I said, now our goal this year is to get to an eight to million dollars this year.
 
Um, so we're on track for that. Great. And we with, uh, a big thank you to the, the masterminds and, and everything of that, so Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, so how about finance, like building your budget and doing all your bookkeeping and your payroll? Are you doing that, James? I do not do that. I have an office manager who does that.
 
Great. I don't dip my hand in the cookie yard. That's one of the big role I, I have as an owner. I have a salary for myself that, you know, is paid and um, and I don't dip my hands or don't need to belong. Yeah. Yep. I agree. Um, it's, it's been tricky for me. I mean, there's times where I've, you know, leveraged some profit from the company to do some things for myself.
 
Yeah. But for the most part, I'm the same. I take a salary and I leave the rest in the company and reinvest those profits, reinvest and grow it. Yeah, that's right. I want Henry four on that aspect. You know, you don't have to know everything to surround yourself. People know what they're doing on their part, so.
 
Yeah, that's right. Um, right people, right seats and they've gotta get it, want it, have the capacity to do it. They have to. Yep, absolutely. So, um, what's your, what, so how did you learn the window cleaning? I mean, did this guy that you bought it from, did he teach it to you and like, same with the other things, like the lights and the soft wash.
 
How did you learn to actually do the work? Because you told me before we came on that you really are. Fairly recently still just coming off of the truck. Right. Uh, as you said, out of the warehouse when I didn't, when I first started this, I didn't know anything about window cleaning. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, when I was a teenager, I had a full service.
 
I worked at a full service gas station. Now I had a, that's the much, that's the only time I used the squeeze you in my life. Was you The windshields? Yeah. Windshields. Yeah. And to be honest with you, I hated it because it wasn't what I was used to. You know, everybody jumps in. Oh, I love it. I didn't, I mean, I had to have it come to Jesus, me moment where God had to show me the blessings of this.
 
Mm-hmm. Because I wanted to get back from what I was known for doing, you know, and it was a humble experience because I quit a good paying job. 'cause I was already so invested in this. I had to either, either sink or swim, swim or drown. And so I chose the swimming part. And I had a take. I mean, I had a good job.
 
I'm, you got 'em to keep mind. I'm in a small community as well where everybody knows everybody. Yeah. And, um, so I quit this job and I remember my father-in-law was saying this made the dumbest mistake ever made to quit the job of benefits to do something like this. Mm-hmm. And I had, within a month from doing this, I had to get on, um, on the local school where my daughters was going to elementary school, I became a janitor.
 
Mm. Imagine the humble experience. You, you see when you're talking to your friends out there, you know, and, and they respect you for what you're doing or they see you successful and the next week you're holding the moop in the school. Yeah. You know, it's very humble experience, but I knew the vision and I knew what God had me in the store for me to do, and he still, and I'm still following it through.
 
Yeah. And I noticed in, in, when you have a business, I mean, you'll lose a lot of friends. It is, it is different. You know, they don't see things way you see 'em, you know, you don't, you have wins. It's like we, we, we said in the mastermind, you know, you have no one to celebrate the wins with you. They don't unders they don't get it.
 
Yeah. And, um, so yeah, yeah, that was, I was told that several times this was stupid. Why go after something like window cleaning? Mm-hmm. And I knew, and when I'd started this, I said, I'm make this one of the biggest and best places in this area to work at. Everyone knows who upper camera window clean is. Who, who they are.
 
And we're a household name now Okay. In this area. So I think we succeeded that. I love it. And it sounds like, um, so and is that what it is now that really keeps you invested is, um, the people? It is the mostly employees. My, you know, it's why I get up my family. Um, and, and, and it's, the employees now serve family.
 
Um, my, my focus has changed. It's not about me and, and, um, it's not about creating, you know, James Riley's window cleaning. I, I'm focusing on a bit, you know, I want this to be something after I'm dead and gone. Yeah. Um, a legacy. A legacy. Yeah, a legacy if you, if you will. Um, so it's, it's about the employees that we have here, their families.
 
Like I said, they've been with us for years. Uh, we created something here. Like I said, I've jack of all trades, a master, none. I worked around a lot of places, done a lot of things, but I took what I liked at each of those places and I put that into where this atmosphere here, and most importantly, we are a faith-based business.
 
So we do start the week off in prayer. That's one time we get everybody together, and that's first and foremost. Um, so it's a ministry as well. You know Yeah. Plant a seed water, but always, always trust God. Give the increase, whatever it is. So it is helped a lot of people going through situations and don't mistake that with a charity case.
 
'cause we're not a charity case Right. As well. So, but it's a good place, great atmosphere to work. Um, and we created something that's, and that's my why, getting up every day, creating something better for, for the employees and their families and see what we can see, what win we can achieve today. So. I love that.
 
So do you think that having faith in the business, do you think that that helps you in recruiting, um, talent, or does that make it more difficult? Because maybe you're finding people that don't have God in their heart, and maybe you're finding people that do, but what does that look like whenever you're hiring?
 
I'm just curious. I mean, it's a little bit of both, but you gotta keep in mind where I'm at. I'm, I'm in the Bible belt area. Yeah. Of, of the country. So it, it is not as hard for me as it would be for others. You know? They know. And, and that's the reputation I had. I, you know, I'm a preacher. I went from preaching every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday, revivals, evangel to this being my pulpit.
 
Okay. And that took a hard lesson to learn, where I try to get away from it and go back and behind a pulpit, but God kept bringing me back. Now, this is your pulpit. Mm-hmm. This is where I want you. So, and it is this fine line trying to, you know, to do that. So it took a lot of learn. Um, a lot of failures came in my life out trying to make that move, you know, not understanding, you know, I'm one of those I wish God just smack me in the face, like, here it is.
 
But, um, but it is, uh, it's not really been that hard to find employees like that. Um, most. For the most part, they might start off a little ruggish. Mm-hmm. Uh, my supervisor, I mean, he didn't really believe, now he's requesting prayer every Monday morning, you know? Ah, so it, it's something special to see that.
 
So, you know, it's working, you know, you know, I'm not perfect. Don't look at me, but I, I serve one who is Yeah. And that, and that's where I'm on point you at, you know, don't look at me and my faults. I'm gonna show you I'm perfect. I am all day long. You know, it'll take five minutes to know my best. 15 minutes wasn't good enough to put it that way, or 15 seconds.
 
So I love it. So really, you've taken your business, you've, 'cause if you used to be a preacher and now you've taken it into, this is the platform by which you can still share the word. Yeah. And, and do it with your employees, which really does create a lot of unity and family and teamwork and, yeah. Yeah. I love it.
 
That's a very unique story, James, and I really appreciate you sharing that. Um, and there's just so much good in that. Um, so yeah. Um, well, I wanna, I wanna, so you pretty much self-taught yourself. Are you involved with any industries? I mean. Like, and then how did you come to the huge, like how did you learn all of that and like what happened?
 
Because I know you're right there in Tennessee, so they were close by, but tell me that story. Well, how I come to here kind of on Facebook. Okay. That'd be interesting because I needed to know more. I wanted to educate myself and, and become a professional in my trade here. You know, it's hard to sell a service, uh, when you're, when you don't know much about it.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, just like walk, sending a salesman out there trying to sell something they don't know nothing about because you know you are a salesperson, um, when you're out there. So, yeah, I got hooked up with a huge, um, I think my first one was in Atlanta. Um, that was a ways back. Yeah, that was ways back. And then, then Branson and then, you know, the last few here in Nashville.
 
So I think I, without, within 13 years, I missed maybe one, one. Huge prevention. And that's during growing pains where I couldn't take off. I was still in the truck and had a, yeah. Busy, busy schedule for, for one to three people then so. Well, you and I have been to a lot of shows together. We just never really met.
 
So this is cool. I love it. I always speak to myself, you know, I'm one of those shy guys and you know, just kind of okay resort a little bit until you get to know me and then I'm just chatty Cathy, I guess. No, this is cool. 'cause I mean, yeah, 'cause now you're kind of getting yourself out there and with the podcasts and people get to know you a little bit better, so I love it.
 
Um, so, um, you are, you're kind of at the stage in the company and, um, you know, 800 to a million is what you're trying to do this year. So do you find that that's kind of like, uh, you feel like you're kind of like trying to break, just lost him.
 
Okay. Little technical difficulty there, but we're back. Um, so James, what we were talking about is, um, you being really right at that, like in the phases of business and with growth, we get to this, to the, we get to the revenue. Um, kind of benchmarks where we're having a struggle breaking through and it can take two to three years, sometimes at a certain revenue to actually,
 
and, and again, we're talking about kind of breaking through the revenue ceiling. Um, where, what are you experiencing? What's really difficult about. Getting to that million dollars or have you had any stagnation in revenue where you're trying to push through? What's it look like the last couple years?
 
Well, it's, everything's going pretty smooth. And now, you know, you got AI kind of taking over some things and you got people coming out, you know, behind the computer, what they were doing, getting into the service industry. So now it is competition, you know, having to, you know, put that on your toes. And that's where, to me, the Mastermind and, and, and, um.
 
And finding a good business coach, um, to help you succeed and, and develop something that's going, you know, to, to put a dome around you, um, to protect your investment, you know? Mm-hmm. And employees and stuff like that. So it's, that's where this get my, got myself involved in something like that really helped, you know?
 
Yeah. Without that, I, I don't, you know, I'd still be way under what I wanted to be. The competition, you know, people said that it doesn't hurt you. I beg to differ, you know? It does to me it does. Um, especially when they're in that, you know, taking some of your customers away that you want to, that's been with you for a while, you know, that, that, that hurts.
 
So, you know, we're trying to combat that right now and hasn't hurt us too much, I think because of the mastermind and, and, and the great business coach. So good. Yeah. Do you find that, um, I mean, you've been in it a while, but do you find that, um, I don't know, window cleaning, soft washing, Christmas lights, it's all become like pretty sexy, right?
 
Like yeah. So much of it on social media now and you know, these, all this so satisfying videos and all of the thing that kind of started it. Um, so kind of like everybody's getting into it now, it's really saturated the market. Do you agree with that? I, I think so. I think they make it look so easy and you're, somebody's out there, Facebook and TikTok and all that stuff to make this industry look really easy until, you know, and I've seen a lot of business try to get started in this fail.
 
Yeah. Um, you know, they're not out there anymore, but there's always another one comes up, so, uh, yeah. Yeah. One thing that, um, I, I've, I've been in my market for 26 years and Oh, wow. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's like, I kind of feel like I built it right, like I built the expectation of what customers expected to pay for professional window cleaning service, for professional house wash, for professional janitorial service, like that sort of thing.
 
And what's most frustrating to me, and I'm just gonna say it is. You know, obviously I have a company with overhead, you know, fixed and variable expenses and lots of payroll and all of that sort of thing. So that has to be built into my rate. Yeah. And again, you know, that's what we're out there fighting for every day.
 
And then now you've got so many new guys coming in and they're owner operators and bl and bless 'em. Like they're, they're coming in, they're doing the same thing that you and I did. Yeah. Like no fault. I get it. And, and it's a great entry point for, for a business. So I understand that a hundred percent.
 
What I, what I have a really hard time with is that when I've built a price expectation in a market, why, why are they coming in and trying to destroy it? Because it's like they, I don't think they realize that down the line, if they wanna grow and they wanna succeed and turn it. A company, they're gonna have to charge those rates too, and they're really kind of themselves in the foot, right?
 
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, um, I don't know if you experienced the same thing, but it's a huge conundrum to me. It's like, man, I've worked so hard and. You know, like, I know there's you, you can't price fix, you can't get 'em all in a room. You'd be like, charge this way. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but I mean, it's, it's a real thing.
 
So anyway. But what does your competition look like? Is it, is it is. It's not bad. Have a lot of companies in your market? We, we do. We have several. Um, a lot of 'em are, are mostly bucket bob type competition, but there are a few, you know, two to three that's my size and maybe little less. We have good, um, we, we help each other out quite a bit.
 
So Good. That's healthy. That is healthy competition. We work good together and it works for all of us on that end, you know. That's great because I do, they don't things they do that I don't. So, um. We kind of help each other out. I'm glad to hear that. And I have, um, several companies in my market too that, yeah, we have lunch together.
 
We call each other on the phone, we chat about business, we chat about the market, we chat about our services, and we stay in good contact because, you know, really we do, we all wanna support each other and help each other out and maintain good relationships. And at the end of the day, what's most important is that we are, we are, um.
 
You know, we are raising that standard of professionalism in the industry. Right. That is really what matters. Yeah. Um, so anybody that is doing that, they are akay with me. Yeah. Yeah. They're still in line from Jim to Wall. Um, give that world class service. Right. So, um, James, you told me that you have really good retention and this is a tricky thing.
 
Um, I. This is a really tricky thing. I what is your secret? Is treat 'em like they're humans, you know, treat 'em. Um, of course you always get those ones every now and then. That's not, you know, that's not a great fit. Um, take care of best you can. Um. You know, do what, sorry. Are, are you paying, um, hourly commission?
 
Do you have any types of, like bonus programs or anything like that? Is there any We, we do, we pay hourly, which is fixing to change. We're fixing probably go over to the production model. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm probably one of the last ones that's a business my size that does pay hourly. Um, but we, you know, but we're getting ready to go into the production model for 'em, and, and the supervisor and employees, we talked about it, and that's nothing I, that, that helps to, the employees feel like it's part of theirs as well.
 
So it's not a decision I just make here it is, you know. Mm-hmm. Um, well, the upper manager will talk about it and then we'll get with employees. We'll take their concerns and, and everything. We'll, we'll, you know, we're all, um, adults in the room and, and we're hashing through everything. And, and see what works, showing the numbers and, um, they're usually on board with, with a lot of things.
 
And if they have concerns, we'll hash it out, you know, we'll just, we'll go from A to Z on it and see what, you know, what would be the issue. Mm-hmm. So we're making them feel like they have ownership in this as well. Yeah, that's one big keys too. So yeah, it's, it's a big move. Um, we switched to performance pay.
 
I think we're on our third year of performance pay. And it really changes a lot of the dynamic in the company. And I think that it sounds really good and I know it's very popular for companies in our industry to do it. Um, I honestly have. Some, like, now that I've been through it and, um, really trying to, um, I'm trying to hold to it, but it is, it has presented a lot of challenges in the company to be honest for me.
 
Okay. Um, and you know, I say like my biggest piece of advice and for anybody listening is you gotta make sure from a finance perspective that you're offering the correct percentage. Um, that allows them to be able to still earn equally or as good as they were hourly, and that it's not too much, that even though you're fixing that labor rate at a certain percentage, that you're thinking about all the other things.
 
Like are you, when you're hiring people, are they coming on hourly and then would they be earning overtime? There's other things that can contribute. To, um, that labor rate going too high. And so even though that you fixed it at a percentage, so there's, there's, you know, quite a bit there. Um, it also opens a ton of transparency, like you said in the company of, 'cause now everybody knows your prices and everybody knows, um, you know, really how to price the jobs and all that sort of thing.
 
Um, it does make everybody really focused on the dollar. That's something that I have found that's been a downside. Um, we're service companies and service companies, you know. We go out and we serve people, right? Like that's what we do. So, um, that, that's been something too that's been quite challenging.
 
'cause I've noticed that, you know, sure. Paying hourly, they go out and oh, they wanna do their best job for Mrs. Jones and maybe that's costing the company a lot of money because they're spending too much time or something like that. So it does create more of the hustle and the efficiency I think. But, um, it, to, to keep it focused on quality at the same time, I think is crucial.
 
Yeah. Really, really crucial. Um, so, but yeah, it's, um, it's quite interesting. And I'd say the other thing that I've learned is even though people are on commission now, I think it's extremely important that you're still keeping track of time. Because if you can, if they're still clocking in and clocking out at the end of the day.
 
Then essentially at the end of each year, you can look at their all their time sheets and a total, and you can look at the revenue or the what they've earned, their gross revenue that they've earned, and you can average out to see where they fall in that equivalent of an hourly rate. And to know if you're competitive in the job market, to know that you're paying them correctly and all that sort of thing.
 
So I think it's really important to still keep track. Yeah. Of the time. At the end of the day, we're selling labor, right? Yeah. We're, we're selling time. So, um, those are just some of my personal experiences, probably, probably listeners that are going like, ah, you know, you know, now it's been great and whatnot and that's good.
 
But, um, you know, that's just my perspective and how it's been in my company. We did, um, actually roll back our commissions a little bit this year. Um, that was kind of tough, but they were too high and that's really hard when you have to pull back. So that's why I say you wanna make sure that you've really analyzed your finances and make sure that you are offering the right commission amount so that, and waging it against that hourly so you know that they're still able to, you want them to make, add and exceed what they were able to before, create the efficiency and, you know.
 
Ideally you're doing more jobs. You know, you, you do get a lot of pushback of, um, like the price of the job wasn't right. You get a lot of pushback on sales. You will. And because they feel like it should have been priced higher. And at the end of the day, like, I get that. I understand why they're concerned, right?
 
Yeah. Because that, that's, that results in how much they make. So, um, that's the other part of it is making sure that the way that your pricing jobs is standardized. And all these houses and everything are so different. It's hard to do. Oh yeah. Yes, sure is. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so tell me about your business coach.
 
You said you have a business coach. What's that look like? It's going, uh, I started back in October, um, and it's, it's going well on that. So, you know, we're just, now, I feel still at the beginning stages of some things. Um. Because it was, it was very overwhelming of the material they had so, um, to go by.
 
Mm-hmm. Um, but now I think we're getting a handle on some things to, to help us. And, and it's been a big help. It's like being a business owner. Like I said at the beginning of this, you can't go in this knowing at all. Right. So at some point you're gonna need help. Yep. And, um. Okay. And I was one of those, I looked at it like this.
 
There's a lot of business coaches out there. I mean, everyone has their own opinion on who to use, who to get, and um, of course I like to eat. So I, when I go out and take my family out somewhere to a different town or something different place, vacation, I like to go where there's a big, a lot of people are on the parking lot, so empty parking lot, because that tells me the empty parking lot.
 
Food's probably not gonna be that good. And so I go to the, I go to the one who, where it's a lot of people in there. So we go eat and nine out 10 times we have a great experience. And that's how we looked at the coach that I, that I hired, um, that coaches a lot of people in our industry and stuff and, and everyone rated about about them.
 
So I, I chose them and it's, I'm, I'm glad I did. We help. Yes. So how often do you meet with your coach? Is it once a month? Uh, we meet several times a month, you know, on round table falls and stuff like that, on, on that. And it's, um, so it's, you know, it keeps you on your toes. Yeah. Yep. It's a, it's an accountability partner, right?
 
Yeah. And you're probably like. Building out your business plan, setting your budget with them, doing all that sort of thing, checking in doing your monthly financials and what went wrong and what do we need to do? What do we need to fix? It's, is it, does it look like that? It does, yeah. And the systems, what we thought we had in place was great, but some of the systems we had was holding us back.
 
Mm-hmm. So, you know, that's another thing as well, that was, we had. Re-look at our systems. It is like looking in the mirror and, and checking your faults, right. Time to time to change some things, you know? Yeah. What's the most challenging thing for you at this point? The most challenging thing for me at this point is getting over the overwhelmness of, of, of the new systems were put in place.
 
Um, it was, that was one of the biggest challenge for me. On, on that. Um. And get myself outta the way more. Mm-hmm. And that was, that's a big challenge. Um, because like I said, it's not about me anymore. You know, of course I'm the one who, who comes up with the ideal strategies and, and, and at the end of the day, sign off on stuff.
 
But the same time, you know, that's why I created in this business. 'cause when I worked at, when I worked at places, transparency was a big deal. They didn't care about me. They, you, you were just a number to 'em. And I didn't want my employees, I don't care if it was a guy out here just picking up, grab off the parking lot.
 
I want him to know he matters. Mm-hmm. So, um, I want transparency to be a big thing in our company. You know, bring everybody together, let them know they mean something to us. I don't care. We have a hundred employees. I still wanna create that family type team atmosphere. So, um, and. But getting myself outta the way to, to keep that going has been a big hurdle.
 
Yeah. Yeah. And empowering them to do the things right? Yes. Yeah. Yep. Um, you're right, it is. Well, I, I'm assuming James, that you have very good leadership capabilities with your preaching background and. And things like that. And, um, and you definitely come with a lot of heart, so I have a feeling it's probably you're, you're well poised to lead this organization into great things.
 
I appreciate that, Sheila. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, you are welcome. So what else do you wanna chat about? Think about the listeners out there and you know, like we can kind of make it fun. I mean, what's probably one of the dumbest things or things that you said, oh man, I should have totally done different. Can you think of anything?
 
Yeah. Uh, don't commit, don't commit yourself to too much right away. Okay. What about when I first start? I got a funny story. Yeah, let's hear it. When I first, when I first started this, I mean, we were with, you know, we started this in April of 2013, and that's when I took over the reigns of this business and, and went pretty much built it from the ground up to where it is.
 
But in the, from April through that September, they had a Paul home show, and this is where all your talk hall and people in the. Places go to, to, um, see the business out there. It's not as big as it used to be, but um, but anyway, I didn't have enough money for get to be really branded like we are now. So we went out and got one of those big, you know, white post, uh, postcard posters, things to draw on it.
 
Mm-hmm. And I worked, I had my little girls helping me and I, that's when I was working sun up to sun down. I mean, I was barely get two, three hours of sleep at night. 'cause hitting, you know, getting up. I mean, guys who are first starting out, they know about this and the women starting in the week business and, um, they're out there just describing.
 
And so we put this post or this poster car together with upper coming window cleaning together. Okay. And thought it looked good. Everything looked good, but, and we're, and, and, and they had this, this, the, the, um, school superintendent coming there at this show as well with their students. And my booth is right next to the stage.
 
Where she was gonna be at. Okay. Somehow we spelt, we, we, we mispelt cleaning. And we spoke cleaning in. So we put the ING on there twice on that. So that really, but at the same time it got us a lot of business. So go figure. You're definitely different post. I don't know, but it happened. Yeah. Everybody kept going to my booth.
 
We had a college, Tennessee Tech was out there and they kept coming by our booth. I thought they're just happy to see us. Yeah, they're looking at that, looking at that poster. So it was kind of comical. So, um. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, yeah. Yeah, that's why I, I used to my advantage. That's why you need to pay me to send me some education so I can still things better.
 
So Yeah. Yeah. Hire me. I love it. So what's the vision for the company? We know where you wanna get this year in 2026, but what's your vision? The vision is still there where I want this to be the, one of the best places in our area, if not the best places to work. You know, we are going to our first job fair, competing against factories and stuff like that next month.
 
So now we offer about everything they can offer, you know, so, um, I'm excited about that. I'm, I'm just wanting to, um, and keep getting those A players to help take us to the next level. Yeah. Um, and the boy, I go through my share just to get those bodies in here just to get, be, you know, I got a lot of stories on that too.
 
I'm sure. Sure you do too. So. Yep. Um, just hiring anybody. But, um, but yeah, that's the vision is, is, is to right now, I'm still, like I said, I went from a truck to a van that was possessed to an HHR that got struck by Lightning to um. A little van and now we got these other vans. I got a warehouse, a little warehouse behind where I live at, uh, a warehouse in town for the lights.
 
But my vision now is to get away, to get everything away from my house into town. So, um, closer to where everything's at. Yeah. That's my vision now. And create a great place of, of employment, you know, that's hard. I don't have to get rich doing this. I'm fine. Okay. I'm good. All Bill being paid food to eat on the table.
 
I mean, I'm one of those, Hey, my, it's okay to be successful. It's okay to get yours here, but at the end of the day, I can't take it with me. I always tell people, you never see a U-Haul behind a hearse. So I know I can't take that stuff. I just wanna build a legacy that's going to surpass me. Love that, that, that's my vision.
 
I love it. Um, very, it's very real. Um, you can 100% do exactly what you just said. I mean, that is, um, you're already really doing it, James, right? Yeah. Window cleaning. Really window cleaning, I mean. Wow. You know? Yeah. It's not what you do. It's amazing from, I hated doing to now this, I love doing this. It, it, it's a passion of mine and every day it's just, it's a new challenge, you know?
 
I'm one of those lucky challenge, so it's, it's a, it really fits great. So what changed? Because earlier you said you hated it and then now you love it. So what was it, do you know what happened where you went like, oh wow, I actually love doing this. Yeah. I, I don't have to worry about the fear of being, um, losing my job.
 
You know, someone stabbed me in the back trying to get my, you know, position. Um, or, um, if I wanted, you know, not had to worry about working so much hours, I had to work overtime or anything, I could spend more time with my family. Right. Even though I spent a lot of time and at work. I still spend a lot of time with my family at the same time.
 
'cause everything's right here. Yeah. And my wife now, she was a casual casualty from ai. She's been at her place for about 20 years. Had a great job, never could afford her. Mm. And I told her at the beginning, or beginning of the last year, well, middle of the summer last year, I told her, I said, A year from now I'm gonna steal you away from your job.
 
You can come work for me. Well, she just lost her job about three, you know? Right. Uh, it was the day, actually, the day we went to mastermind. Okay. You know, and I was traveling up there was on that, that Tuesday before the Wednesday we met Mastermind. She lost her job due to ai and so now she's coming in here to develop those systems, which I'm ex excited about because you know, she does good.
 
That's what she does. Mm-hmm. So love it. Opened up the window of opportunity for her too. Yeah. Wow. I love it. So what is her role in the company? I'm a her president. That's, that's her role. She's, right now, she's develop her man. I want her to, um, develop the system in a couple years. I want her to train somebody to take her place.
 
And that way we can, you know, by then our, you know, we can, I wanna be a, um, I'm a beach bum. I like mountain too, but I like, I love going to the beach. I, I mean, if it wasn't for this, I probably had the lone dreadlocks, um, barefoot it in the sand, living underneath a, a p somewhere. But yeah, that's. Yeah. Well, now we know what your vision for retirement looks like.
 
Yeah. Truth is, I'll probably have those high colored black socks on with a metal thick. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's great. So true family business. I mean, you've got, and like I know, understand all your employees aren't your family and your girls aren't working in the company, but your wife is, but you are really, you've created a family through your company.
 
Yeah. Um, and that, you know, they see that of course. Yeah, it, it really does. I think it's, it's really natural for us to put so much emphasis on our employees and care about them. You know, so many of these, uh, interviews that I do, and everybody kind of says the same thing. I mean, often we're, we're paying the other guys before we pay ourself.
 
Yeah, I mean, we really do sacrifice a lot and, um. And, you know, at the same time we have benefits of being business owners and whatnot, but, um, it's, it's a lot of risk. You are definitely putting yourself out there. Like you said, it's kind of lonely up there at the top. Yep. Yeah. Lose friends. Everybody wants to tell you what to do and how to do it.
 
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, um, it takes a lot of grit and everybody listening I'm sure, knows that already 'cause they're all going through the same stuff. But I think there's so much value in hearing people's, everybody's stories because we can all relate in some way. I mean, that's why I tell listeners out there is keep your head up.
 
You know, it may be bad today, but you may have one of the biggest wins waiting on you tomorrow. Oh my gosh. I find that every single day. Like I can have some of the worst days and then the next day is like, oh my gosh, this, like, there, there's a little, little, little saying in the Bible that says, this too shall pass.
 
This too shall pass. So, um, it, it will pass. I mean, so there's a, there's may 'cause I'm one of those where my feelings on my sleeve, I mean, you can read me like a book, you know, things ain't going well. You're gonna know that by looking at me. Right. But at the same time, this too shall pass. I mean, there's a better win waiting on you for the, you know, just moments away.
 
So just keep your head up. Don't, don't throw in the white flag. And, and, um, you know, that's one thing I also tell people in the Bible, there's never a white flag to be thrown in, you know, um, just keep for, um, perseverance and endurance and, and, and just keep stride ahead. And the mountains aren't easy to climb.
 
You know? Yeah. Storms ain't easy to go through, but you can get through 'em. Meaning giving up is not even an option. No, no. It's not even option. Don't quit. Yeah. Yeah. I got a family that, that, that, that relies on me, so it's not an option for me. Yep. You know, so this is, I got employees that rely on me. It's not an option at this point, so.
 
Yep. Well, hey, this has been very meaningful. I really appreciate the conversation. I, I, I love stuff like this and so I hope our, I hope our listeners do too. And, um, I wish you the best, James. I can't wait to see you in person now again. Alright. Yeah. I'm gonna track your, uh, your revenue goal for 2026 and I'm gonna see where you're at in fourth quarter and I hope that you're pushing a million.
 
I hope so too. Yeah, hope so too, Sheila. I look forward to seeing what that looks like for you. And again, thank you so much and thanks to all of our listeners today. All is well. We appreciate you taking the time and, and inviting me to this, to the huge, um, podcast here. I appreciate it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I enjoy every minute, so we have a great community here and we're just wanting to share.
 
We just wanna share, share each other's, each other's trials and tribulations and everything that we're learning along the way. 'cause we can help each other out. Yeah. We're all in this, I feel like even though we don't know each other personally, everything, but I feel like at the same time we're all in this together.
 
We are 100%. Yeah. Raising the standards. Right, exactly. I love it. All right, thanks James. Thanks listeners for joining us today. Signing off. Alright, take care. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
 
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
 
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
 
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
 
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
 
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
 
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
 
And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
 
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
 
We'll see you in the next episode.
 

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Brandon Smith, a retired Army First Sergeant turned first-time franchise owner of M1 Epoxy Floors in the Nashville area. Brandon shares what it really looks like to jump into entrepreneurship after 23 years in the military—trading structure and support systems for the chaos of wearing every hat in a small business. From sales and marketing to installation, bookkeeping, and hiring, Brandon gives a raw, honest look at his first 18 months in business and how his military mindset—especially adaptability and resilience—has helped him navigate the pressure.
 
Brandon and Sheila also break down the realities of running a high-ticket, non-recurring service business. They talk about the challenges of cash flow, managing large project costs, learning financial forecasting the hard way, and why closing sales is critical when every job is a one-time opportunity. Brandon shares key lessons on hiring for character over skill, building an install team, and leveraging systems like CRMs to stay organized. They also explore how joining the Huge Mastermind shifted his thinking—especially around understanding market size, opportunity, and simplifying growth. It’s a valuable episode for newer entrepreneurs and anyone trying to turn early momentum into a sustainable, scalable business.
Resources
M1 Epoxy Floors
Veteran Service Brands
Housecall Pro
QuickBooks
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hello? Hello, listeners. It's Sheila Smeltzer, a plus Pro Services and huge transformations podcast contributor. I am very excited today I introduce an interview. Brandon Smith with M1 Epoxy Floors, who is an 18 month new franchise owner, franchisee owner, uh, who shares a lot of his new entrepreneurial experiences with us.
We talk about the good, the difficult, what we would do different. We talk about how his. Retired army, uh, experience has landed into his leadership skills and, uh, entrepreneur entrepreneurial skills, how he's wearing so many hats. We cover everything from tactical work and the details about epoxy floors, fixed revenue to recurring revenue.
We talk about wearing all the hats. Um, this is just an awesome, authentic interview that I know that all of our listeners will gain something from. Um, I really enjoyed getting to know Brandon today, and I thank all of you for listening. Let's dive in. Hello everyone, this is Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast and I have Brandon Smith with Mach one Epoxy Floris here joining us today.
Hey Brandon, good morning. Thank you for having me. I love this. This is gonna be super fun. Uh, Brandon is retired army sergeant and he is a first year franchise e owner of Mock One Epoxy Floors based outta West Nashville. And we're gonna have a lot of fun today and really insightful conversation about the correlation between your background and how, you know, your serving in the Army has helped you with, you know, starting as an entrepreneur.
Um, I love that you're pretty new in the entrepreneurial journey, so this is gonna be great. Um, and I, you know, I wanna first start and just get to know you, but Brandon, introduce yourself. Uh, tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and a little bit about Mach One. Okay. Um, so yes, I am, uh, just under 18 months business owner.
Uh, I bought a franchise Wan Epoxy. Um, we do operate in the greater Nashville area, Nashville West based. Um, I've been, like I said, I've been doing that for about 18 months, but prior to that I spent 23 years in the Army. I retired as a senior enlisted advisor or a first and a, uh, first sergeant. Um, over a counter drug task force.
Um. In that is vastly different, but a lot of the same, going from that role, transitioning to a business owner, um, a little more chaos in the, in the small business world, trying to manage all of the hats instead of having the supporting framework. But, uh, we're figuring it out. Um, I'm a father. I have two children, 11 and eight, grace and Madeline, and, uh, they're my other side of chaos.
So there's no rest. And I understand, I understand you're handyman to your wife as well. Yes. If there is a project I am responsible for doing said project, um, probably not the best at getting them done any, any timely, but, uh. We, uh, we do a lot. We live out here, uh, just south of Clarksville and north of Dixon in almost no man's land.
A little county of Houston County that, uh, has about 8,000 people in total. So we got a couple of stoplights that we don't really need. Uhhuh, it's quiet out here, but there's lots of projects. That's great. Well, she's lucky to have you, Brandon. Thank you. Thank you. So, wearing all of these hats, um, how has your experience and, you know, just 23 years in the Army, how, how, what are these skill sets that have helped you navigate, um, your 18 months, starting out with the franchise?
Well. In the military, we said a lot of things like embrace the suck. Mm-hmm. So when things got chaotic and it just wasn't going well and there's lots of regulations, there's lots of guidance, um, but sometimes things just don't fit in that framework. And being able to think outside the box and being able to, um, mold to the situation you're in has helped me tremendously.
Um, coming over to the entrepreneurial side and opening Mock one Epoxy, um, was exciting and fun is still exciting and fun, but it does not come easy. There's still a lot of stress. There's still, I am the salesman. I am the owner, I am the installer. I am the maintenance guy. I, I do all of the things. I do the bookkeeping and the manage our accounting and the accounting.
So. That's a lot. It is a lot. Um, yep. Been there and trying to make sure that you do it right. And I can tell you that, uh, there's, there's nights that I wake up and I'm still stressed about the business and stressed that, uh, I'm making the right decisions for us. But, uh, overall turning in here in our second year now, um, things are really looking up and business is going really well.
My employees are doing great. They're installing floors like crazy. And, uh, we're booked up for a couple of months. And I, I, I gotta say that, uh, that's not without the score of the huge, it's not without the score of the community that, uh, I'm in at Mach one or Better Service brands, but, uh, we're doing really, really well.
I love to hear that. Um, such a success on, on the, you know, coming out of the gate, it sounds like, um, Brandon, tell, tell me about hiring. So how did you. You know, uh, I, I do not, I'm not part of a franchise. Um, but how does that work when you're starting out? You've got a brand new location, um, you're the franchisee.
How did you know who to hire first? How did you know, how did you start filling in the roles? Roles, and what does, what is the size of your organization after 18 months? So, when I opened, my intention was to go slow. Um, I wanted to understand the business I, from, from the base level all the way up. So I wanted to install floors on my own.
I wanted to manage all the risk within my two hands. Okay. Um, I did that for about three months. My goal was to do it for a year, and after about three months, I realized that it was impossible. There's no way that I could turn a true profit, um, manage the entire business and go out and do floors.
Tennessee is a great place and Nashville is fairly, fairly metropolitan, so there is a lot of work there. But I was traveling a couple of hours to job sites on a daily, so I'm losing those couple of hours that the business needed for me or that I needed to work on the business rather. Um, so about three months in, I decided that it was time to start looking for a laborer.
Um, we put out an add or two. Um, I took a couple of interviews, had a couple of coffees. I'm not a, coming from the military, I've done a lot of boards that are very regimented and I've always found that anybody can study in passive board. You can, you can be prepared and seem as if you know what you're doing.
I like to have a conversation. I like to talk to people and really get a feel for who they are, especially if I'm gonna work with them or trust them on a daily basis. Sure. So I tend to take people to coffee. I tend to invite potential employees out for. On the job, uh, training or on the job, uh, interviews.
Let them put their hands on tools, talk me through their processes, and, uh, help validate some of their experience. Excuse me. Help validate some of their experiences. And, um, that has done me very, very well since I've opened the business. So we are, we have two employees now. Okay. I was very fortunate. My lead installer has about 20 years of experience in industrial epoxy work.
Wow. Great pickup. I, it's been fantastic. Um, I've got, I gotta, I gotta keep paying him more 'cause he is definitely worth it. But, uh, a fantastic pickup and has relieved a lot of stress on the installs, allowing them to go out and do floors without me standing and holding hands. But, um, I have a second employee who's a second year guy who's had some training prior to coming to me, but, um.
Was a high culture guy. He's, he's young, works hard, is honest. Yep. Yep. Shows up every day, communicates really well. Um, and I can say that after having somebody that's got the knowledge and capability to do the job, that my second highest criteria is having that, that moral, moral compass. Right. The people that are gonna be honest with you, even if they don't have the capability, you can train somebody to do a job.
You can't necessarily instill your culture and your morals in somebody that just doesn't have them. Yeah. And so that's my, uh, my install team. We've gone through a couple of laborers, um, in the last year trying to find the right set of guys. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we're continuing to grow and looking for other laborers currently.
But, um, that's kinda the process that I go through. I'm, I try not to stick to any one solid method. I'm really just trying to evaluate people for who they are versus what they can do, because we can teach 'em to do floors. Okay, great. So, um, you've, you've got a good operations team started. Um, how, how are you doing sales and marketing?
Oh, not well. Um, so love your, we have spent a lot of money on marketing. Um, fortunately the franchise has a primary company that we use for marketing, and they are, they're good. We are just learning how to employ them appropriately. Um, and so some of the ideas or processes we've tried have cost us with little to no reward.
But, um, this year we've kind of upped, we're in doing meta marketing and we're also doing Google marketing. Both of those things, I think we're a little around, right around $2,400 a month is what we spend, and we're starting to see the appropriate return on investment there. But I am consistently told, and I need to do a better job of.
Digital marketing is not the only platform. You need to find multiple avenues, multiple streams to get your, your brand out there to get your business out there. So doing home shows and doing community events, um, social media, all of those things are things that we could definitely improve upon. And that's gotta come with me having the time available to do it.
Yeah, very good. And this is something that, uh, we learn from the huge mastermind, is that we really wanna be focused on marketing over five to seven different channels, seven to 10 times per year. That's just a really good framework and um, you're right, it is, it is a lot. And then it's also knowing your market.
And where are the people that are buying your epoxy floors and being in those places and in front of them. Um, so good for you. So you get a lead coming in. So it sounds like you have some lead gen coming in from your meta and your Google, and you still have some work to do there, but when the lead comes in, who's doing the sales?
Is that you? That's me. That's me. I'm first contact. So, uh, speed to lead is, is my mantra right now. Trying to, as soon as that lead comes in, um, I don't make calls after 10 o'clock at night, but anything before that, I will pick up the phone and call that customer right away. Very good. The conversations vary.
It really depends on the customer and, and where they're at in their buying process. Mm-hmm. If, uh, if at all possible, I try to schedule an in-person interview, um, I go and I look at their concrete and, and do a true estimate, give them a price on the, on there, and I walk them through their process and why we're a better fit for what they're looking for versus, um, say a truck on the truck that's just operating on Facebook and no insurance and no technical expertise or shoddy material.
Um, but yeah, I'm the guy that, uh, manage it from start to finish. I hand them off to our lead installer, Fred, for the installation, but all the way up until the date of installation, they're mine. And then after installation, they're mine again for about a week or two while I go through a follow up process, search for a Google Review and make sure that we've met all of their requests and requirements.
Great. And then before we move on to that administrative part, because now you have to collect the money and make sure that the money's in the bank and the cash flow and all of that, um. Uh, just take me into the world of epoxy flooring real fast. 'cause I've always been very curious. What, what solutions are you trying to solve for your clients that are in search of floor coatings?
What, what are they looking for? What, what are the problems that they're experiencing that, that the epoxy? Sure. So I'll, I'll give you a couple of scenarios, a couple quick scenarios. Um, I would say residential wise, our primary customer right now is new construction. Nashville's booming. People are building houses left and right.
Um, they're building chops and pole barns and stuff like that. Okay. And what they're looking for is they're trying to get out in front of stains. They're trying to get out in front of chipping or, uh, concrete dust in their spaces. And so what we're coming in and doing is we're applying a resonance floor for them that allows, it's easy to clean, it's chemical resistant, it's not gonna fade.
Um. And it lasts essentially forever. I, we, we give a lifetime adhesion warranty, but we give a 10 year workability warranty. So if, uh, if they should scratch it or, or damage it in any way, we come back and we fix those things. Okay. Now on the other side is the older, um, floors or customers that are looking for a resurfacing.
Somebody that's either had a floor previously, they've done final tile or carpet or something like that in their home, or their garage has just always been a, uh, a concrete garage and it's stained up with oil and all of that stuff. So what we come in is we re rejuvenate the concrete by grinding off that top coat and applying epoxy to it, um, and basically bring their floor back to smooth.
We repair any cracks or divots, um, and provide them a brand new surface to, to live and operate on. Okay. Awesome. So. I come from, 'cause my company does primarily exterior cleaning, so it's like we're very focused on recurring revenue. So in an epoxy world and epoxy floor, um, you like, you are kind of like a one and done.
Right. Other than those go backs. So you have to generate a lot larger client base and you're constantly chasing new leads. What is that? What, what does that look like? Man, this is something that I didn't really discover or wrap my head around until about six months in. Okay. Within veteran service brands, there are several other, um, several other companies and a lot of them are reoccurring service.
Um. And so I didn't realize, I guess I just didn't contemplate it or realize that a lot of service industry depends really on reoccurring business. Mm-hmm. And uh, we don't really offer that. I mean, we offer it, but it's just, it's not gonna be in the next year or two. 'cause we provide a service that you don't need us again for 10, 15 years, sometimes more depending on what they're using it for.
Um, so I'll tell you, we are generating customers like crazy and if we stop, the business stops. So that's why marketing and understanding it, um, is so important. That's why sales are so important. When you get a lead and you're able to go out and do an estimate, if you're not able to close that job, if you're not able to close 50, 60% of the customers that reach out to you, you're gonna be in, in a bad way very quickly.
Yes. So we try and do our very due diligence to make sure the customer understands who we are, what we are, why we're a trusted entity, and why they want to use us versus using most other companies. Not to say that there's not, I mean there are other companies in our area that are very reputable and, and awesome and I have shared work with other companies, but, uh, there are also those customers that, uh, are looking for that cheapest price tag and they're playing a dangerous game with, uh, people that are just not gonna be there to support 'em when they really need it.
Yeah. So 'cause um, part of that sales process and that customer life cycle, it's like once they've come through and now you've done the work, you've followed up, you've got the review, you're ma ensuring their satisfaction, um, you're. Invoicing, you're collecting payment. Um, and is there, do you have anything in place from that point where you do some type of standard follow up a year, three years, four years, anything like that?
I don't currently. Um, however, so we are trying to, um, kind of split the business where we are service based for residential customers, but we are also do a lot of commercial work under general contractors and the like. Okay. Um, and we have some national accounts as well that, uh, we're building and, and using currently, um, with some of those national accounts, you have a lot more opportunity for reoccurring business.
Mm-hmm. We do a couple of oil change shops. Um, a couple of the larger oil change shops that are gonna require, 'cause those floors get beat up. They're gonna require floor refreshes every three to five years, um, in order to maintain slip resistance and maintain keeping that oil out of the concrete and all of those other places.
So we are kind of imposing those processes in, in commercial opportunities. Yep. But it's really hard in the residential area and so fortunately because we just finished up the huge just a couple weeks ago. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the things that I'm looking to do is include, uh, ceiling four driveways. It's a big need here in Tennessee in general because of the freezes and because of the weather.
And it's something that we didn't offer previous, but it's something that we can get reoccurring business every couple of years out of a, out of a basic seal. So the huge has helped me kind of design that and it's something that I'm looking to implement here towards the end of the year. Now the ceiling of the driveway is great.
Um, 'cause with any coating now epoxy is quite durable, like you said last, I mean really has lifetime usage. But on the exterior surfaces like a driveway, anytime you put down a coating, you have to maintain that coating. Correct? Exactly right. So here's the introduction to your recurring services. So what is the difference between the material you put down on the epoxy floor interior as compared to what you're putting down on the exterior driveways?
Uh, well, it's obviously not as durable, but it does seal the concrete so you don't have to worry about staining. You don't have to worry about, um. The concrete dust and everything peeling up. But what it does do is it allows that concrete to last an awful lot longer. Mm-hmm. It does, um, avoids any spills, chemical resistant, all of that stuff.
But it will need in, in the next three to five years, you're gonna have to come back over it, scratch it, and reapply another sealer to it. It just breaks down anything that you put. I mean, even epoxy, if you put epoxy straight out in the sun, it's gonna break down a lot faster than something that's shaded or protected from the elements.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Uv, sun, uh, the sun exposure, traffic, all of that sort of thing will break it down. Absolutely. Great. So I love that. So you're, you're identifying some recurring revenue opportunities. That's great. Um, so what has been the most difficult part in your first 18 months? Oh, um, I would say. I would say money management has been right, so we opened the business.
Um, I'm fortunate that, uh, I, I've retired from the military and kind of prop myself up. Financially my life is okay, but the business, there's all, with high ticket projects, there's a lot of risk. So when you're doing anywhere from three to $25,000 projects, um, especially when you're in the commercial realm where the payments are 30, 60, 90 day, um, payments, you don't have a, a lot of revenue coming in.
In spurts. So you have to be very aware and you need to be forecasting all of that money, making sure you're capable of making payroll, making sure you're capable of buying the materials for the next project and all of those things. And learning a system or devising a system that works for us mm-hmm.
Was something that I struggled with for the first couple of months, understanding how much money was gonna come in and when, versus how much money had to go out, both monthly overhead and project specific. Right. So we're talking cashflow, we're talking finance now. Um, do you have any experience in finance?
So, so what, what are you learning to do different? How are, how are you mitigating this? Well, I had absolutely no experience. Okay. Um, but what we as most of us don't, absolutely none. So it becomes a problem. And then we have to learn. I generally thought like, Hey, I'm good. I manage my own checkbook. I I pay my own bills.
Right? This is gonna be easy. No big deal. Oh, new level. Right. Oh man. Oh yeah. So there was some stressful times that, uh, we got tight, we did a lot of commercial work and I didn't forecast appropriately. And our, our business bank account got down into less than a thousand dollars over even just this winter.
Yeah. And it. And it's not because we weren't doing work or doing business, it's because I wasn't being strategic enough in the way that I did it. Mm-hmm. Um, so because of that, I've got a couple of working spreadsheets. There are, um, and actually I think the huge has a couple of, uh, things that they can provide that they provided to me.
But I've kind of developed my own between the franchises and a couple of different products that I've looked up. And so I've got a really good flow now that as long as I sit down and look at it once a week, I can make sure that I'm managing my bank account, managing the business appropriately from a financial perspective, um, as well as I'm working diligently and dig us out of a small SBA loan that, uh, is, holds us back, right.
We're spending that couple thousand dollars a month in, uh, overhead that. It shouldn't be there after we get it paid off, that'll, uh, free up hopefully a fair amount of money so that me personally can start making a decent amount of money with the business. Yeah, it, it's so true. I mean, the cash injections into when you're starting up, but even as you go along, when you hit those low points, it's very important to have access to lines of credit, um, to any type of cash investment that you can.
I mean, uh, myself and my own company, 26 years in business, I experienced a lot of this over the last year. And, um, so it, it doesn't really go away. And it is all about, you know, managing the cash, the cash flow, and, you know, I thinking about a budget, how do you, how are you predicting. And being predictive of your income, of your revenue.
When you're a young company of 18 months and all of your business is coming from new leads mm-hmm. What does that look like? Lots and lots of lessons learned. So we have gotten to the point now where we stay consistently booked anywhere from four to six weeks out, um, which is kind of the sweet spot for us.
Uh, we would like to be booked farther, but I've kind of discovered that people aren't willing to wait. Yep. Two months, three months to have a floor installed. So we try not to book too much farther out than that. Um, but in that we are forecasting those payments and forecasting that income, um, as well as.
Where we were using credit initially to kind of prop us up for material costs and whatnot. Mm-hmm. We are now kind of moving past that and we're starting to stockpile reserves in order to have an operational budget that doesn't require that credit injection on a regular basis. Not to say we won't get there 'cause we did in just the last couple of months.
But, uh, prior to that and, and thankfully we did, we had 20 or uh, 25,000, $30,000 in the account that just was able to float to us as necessary while we wait for payments. Um, but honestly I don't have the perfect answer yet. And only having a year to look back on, and that year was insane where I expected to do less than a hundred thousand dollars in business the first year and we did $350,000.
The first year it was a, a blessing and a curse. It was, it was trial by fire like I've never dealt with. But, uh, we're trying to take all of those lessons learned and all of those, uh, unnecessary expenses, or I don't wanna call 'em gambles, but you have to test things out. You gotta spend money on marketing that you're not sure is gonna work.
You've gotta buy equipment that you hope is the, the right answer, the right tool. Yep. Um, it's risk. Yeah. All of it. And then, and then of course, I've, I've dealt with Epoxy for fun prior to having this business, but I didn't have any real epoxy experience, so, yeah. Um, not that I broke floors, but I definitely spent more money in material that I didn't need to spend.
Mm-hmm. That, that ultimately cost me over the long run. And it's starting to pay off now 'cause my shop is finally starting to get dry of all the extra material I bought for fear of not having enough. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, it's all about, and we've all made these mistakes, you know, it's the same thing, different scenario, but it's really about what you do with the mistakes and how you learn and grow from them that counts.
And, um, so, you know, you're really off to a great start. Um, what, in your first 18 months, just kind of leaning into that, what would you do different? Um, I wouldn't have now with the experience, say I'm starting a new business today versus, uh, and, and taking all the knowledge and experience with me. Um. I certainly would've started a business, I probably would've gone to a different field.
Not that I don't love my business and don't love doing epoxy floors, 'cause I really do. But as a very first business owner, I wish I would've selected a business that had a little less risk. Mm-hmm. My project, right? I have to inject several thousand dollars into every project. So it's, it's a pretty high risk, it's high reward when it goes well, but it's hard to come up with that cash the first couple of months and make all of that stuff work.
So, um. I've talked with my wife about opening another business in the next couple of years. I'm sure I'll get stabbed for saying that out loud, but, uh, in the next couple of years, I would like to, but I, I, I'd like to probably adjust the field that we go into and be a little more cautious, um, and do a little more research on the, do a little more benefit analysis.
Um, 'cause I wasn't ready. I, I didn't, uh, I didn't quite understand and unfortunately I bought a franchise, which comes with a slew of support and guidance and I was gonna ask that. And I did get into the huge, which has been great, being around people that I want to elevate myself to that can help walk me through some of these pitfalls that I didn't see coming.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, if I had to do it again, I probably would've chosen a field that's, uh, a little less risk by the project. Mm-hmm. Um. And something that's, um, reoccurring, right? Reoccurring. So what are you envisioning? I would like to open a either pressure washing or a paint business here in the Nashville area.
Yeah. Paint. Paint in the southeast. Any type of exterior cleaning. Yes. Very, very needed. I mean, a, a 30 year paint from Sheron Williams is not 30 years. We know that. Of course not. Um, yeah. Excellent. And there's so much technology coming out, um, in all industry, which is phenomenal. I mean, we've got, you know, I was just watching a video last night on social media that, you know, we've got AI powered drones that you basically, they're, I mean, they are.
Painting. Mm-hmm. Experience of buildings. I mean, it's exciting, right? It, it really is exciting to see what, you know, where the future goes. Even in home services and commercial services, any type of, um, you know, maintenance industry. I think that there is so much opportunity there. Um, is what, what intrigues you about the painting?
Well, I, so within Veteran Service brands, we have a, a company called Paint Core. Um, they, I wanna say they have 30 or 40 locations throughout the us Okay. Um, all, all veteran owned again. Okay. Um, their business model is much different than Mock Ones is, so they do subcontract all of their painting work. Uh, of course the owners will go out and they'll help and they'll do some painting stuff, but they really use a subcontracting model.
Um, and they have a great method of selecting subcontractors. Um, so they maintain very, very high standards. And so essentially your, your risk is a lot less. 'cause you don't have to be the technical expert in the field, right. But if you have the sales capacity or capability and you have the tools, you can sell those paint jobs with ease.
Um, and fortunately when you, if you were to buy a franchise, you come with a mold to work in, you don't have to recreate the wheel. Um, and they're doing really well over there. And it's one of the things that Nashville is actually missing from veteran service brand's perspective. Yeah, the subcontract contracting model is very interesting.
Um, I've, I've kind of shifted my mindset on it because I used to say. You know, I know that I have a lot of competitors that 10 99, they're employees. Mm-hmm. And I don't believe that they're doing it lawfully. I believe that, you know, these 10 99 subcontracted, uh, W nine employees are probably not properly insured.
Um, they're probably, you know, they're sticking a magnet on their truck and now they're part of their company, they're going and doing the work, but they probably, even if it's just an owner operator that's just a single person, they probably don't have work comp or a ghost policy on themselves. Mm-hmm. So there's that.
Um, you know, do they have their own equipment? Are you providing it for them? So, I think there's a lot of things that are going wrong with subcontracting, but I also think that there's companies that are doing it right. Absolutely. We know that the, so there's a lot of risk in that first part, but, you know, we know that, you know, we.
Managing payroll, payroll expenses, payroll taxes, the full liabilities that come with payroll, um, the workers' comp, all of that creates a huge amount of cost to a company. Um, and I've always said like, oh, I'm gonna do everything by the book and I'm gonna make sure and da da da, and it's cost did. And so, but what I see now is very strong and modeled companies doing most of their work is subcontracted out.
They're doing it the right way and they're making a larger profit off of that because they don't have all of these other expenses within the company. Um, we know cost of labor and cost of goods is, you know, especially in any type of service, 'cause we're selling labor, right? Mm-hmm. And you have a lot of materials in what you do.
Um, and with painting, there's probably a lot of material involvement as well. But labor's expensive. Very. So yeah, I, I think you're onto something and it sounds like Pink Core has got it figured out pretty good too. Yeah, I think the proper vetting of sub co subcontractors and having a solid subcontractor agreement is essential.
Um, so yeah, it'd be really fun as you kind of explore that, bringing it back to the huge community and letting us know what that looks like, because I think that's opportunity for all of us. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it's something that I'm exploring, something we're working with. I mean, um, veteran service brands would love it, that they would love me to open every different brand that they have here.
I can only afford to do so much upfront, but Right. Yeah. It's something that I'm kind of excited about, but I wanna make sure that I've got Mach one really locked on and, and we're, we're really getting there, but something that I can set aside and allow it to basically run on its own for the most part.
Yeah. Before I move on to something else, um, but I'm glad you brought up insurance. Insurance is a, a big thing that, uh, is. As, as a new business owner that you think that you understand, you come in, you know, you've gotta get some workers' comp, you know, you've gotta get a general liability. There's a lot of, a lot of basics that, uh, people think that they understand.
Man, the insurance world blew me away. I had no idea, I had no idea when I started doing some commercial work that I was gonna be required to have an umbrella policy. I don't even know what umbrella policy was. Right. And then the different levels of requirements. I, I've, I've invested maybe a quarter of a million dollars to get my business up and running, um, to date.
Mm-hmm. And I'm covered for, I have to be covered for $5 million per event. Right, right. I'm just, I'm putting epoxy on a floor. I'm not lighting fires or it, it is wild. Um, and then one of the biggest lessons, and I, I literally learned it yesterday. I'm sure somebody told me, I'm not saying nobody informed me, but I got an email that said, Hey, you gotta do your insurance audit.
Mm-hmm. Insurance audit, honey. Fun. Welcome. So, like, so I called, um, our company and they were very, very nice and polite and explained to me, okay, Brandon, you have an insurance policy. You forecasted you were gonna do this type of business for this long and you were gonna make, generate this much revenue with these employees.
Okay. Yeah. I didn't do any of that. Absolutely not. I'm, I'm way beyond what I forecasted. Right. And they're like, okay, we're just letting you know that you're probably gonna have a supplemental insurance bill. Okay. What does, what does that look like? Well, we did three times as much as I forecasted, and we have two employees and I plan to have no employees, so I'm.
Impatiently waiting. Currently for my supplemental insurance bill, that should be here probably today or tomorrow is gonna be a couple thousand dollars that I'm not gonna like writing the check for. But it was one of those things that I just, I. I didn't know, didn't, didn't think about. Yeah. And, uh, I hope that somebody hears this and goes, you know what?
I should pay attention when they say audit 'cause it might come back around. Yep. Proper, you know, record keeping payroll is so crucial and the way that we report it, um, you know, with work comp you have different class codes that your employees fall in. So your technicians are a different class code than your administrative staff or sales and things like that.
And it's a different rate per $100 of payroll that you, that you pay them. Um, the higher risk comes in and when you have accidents and claims and things like that, your rate per 100 goes up. Yeah. And when you're safe and you don't have accidents or any claims, then your rate. Can stay or sometimes they're cool and they drop it.
Um, but yeah, these are all very tricky things and you know, for those that are listening that work at Height, um, I know that we have great equipment out there that allows us to work safely from the ground, but it is inevitable that we have to get on ladders or do any type of rooftop work or whatnot. And it's extremely important.
The one tip that I can share with any listeners, um, that's kind of been gold for us is we actually try to designate employees that do the work at height. And we, we have a way that we're showing that on the invoice side because, and then also on the payroll side, so that when we get audited, we're only paying that higher rate, that class code for those employees doing that work, the ones that are working from the ground, we're keeping those at that lower rate.
So talk to your insurance. Um. Uh, agent and make sure that they really give you the ins and outs about how you can use effective reporting to, you know, be prepared for when you get these audits. Um, because it can save you thousands and thousands of dollars. Yeah, I, and epoxy is still somewhat of a, a. Not a brand new, but it's definitely growing quickly.
So a lot of these insurance companies, we, and, and even in the contractor world, we don't fit into any of their classification codes very well. Mm-hmm. We don't fit in with painting, we don't fit in with general construction. So it's, it, it's been a pain to figure out exactly where we're gonna fit in appropriately and make sure that we're insured appropriately.
'cause the last thing I want is to have an accident, find out that I'm either underinsured or not. Right. Um, I wanna make sure that our guys are taken care of and, and more so our customers. I don't want anybody to have concern that they've got, that they're owning liability that they shouldn't. Mm-hmm. Um, so we are definitely over-insured in a lot of ways, but, uh.
Thankfully because of the commercial work we've done, it's been a requirement. And so I'm, I'm, I go to sleep at night not worrying about that. Yeah, sure. I'm a little worried about an extra tax bill or an extra insurance bill that's coming, but uh, right. As far as us being insured, I'm not. Well that's okay because you know, now you know you're building history, you know, you're starting out and, you know, it really takes the first three years of history to really.
Get you to a point where you can look back and then become predictive about how to budget and plan for your next year and what to, you know, have your, um, premiums set at and things like that. And your insurance company'll help you do that. But, you know, this is just all part of the growth phase and, you know, you're doing a lot of great things, Brandon, I gotta tell you.
Yeah, I, I'm very impressed. They, they were very quick to tell me, Hey, the first one's always the hard one. You'll be okay after that. Just get through the first one. You'll be all right. Yeah, you will. And they'll walk, they'll walk you through it. Okay. They'll walk you through it. Um, so, uh, what kind of systems are you running in your business?
Uh, systems, how well you say systems, and I think of flooring systems. So I can talk you through some, some technical flooring stuff, but I don't think that's what we wanna talk about. So, um, communication systems, how your, like what does your CRM look like? Um. Uh, how you know are, so Yeah. QuickBooks. So you're using QuickBooks online, so I guess internal software systems.
Mm-hmm. Okay. So we have a couple of different systems we use to manage the business. Um, primarily our CRM is House Call Pro and Okay. They are great. Um, because we're part of a franchise, we get kind of front of line access to support, which is great. Um, as well as we've been able to help, uh, initiate some changes on their platform to, to benefit the epoxy world.
'cause currently there's not a CRM that really recognizes a epoxy as a, uh, as a service. So you can, I think Housecall Pro was set up for heating and air conditioning, so you can see how it all kind of fits that world. Yep. Um, and so we've been able to make some adjustments there. I use that system. For 75% of the business.
It manages our leads, it manages some of our sales and allows me to pull reports on how I'm doing in that realm. It manages the projects, the estimates. Um, I have built out checklists in there so both of the employees can see the checklists and they can go through the process to make sure that I, I get the information I need from every project as well as they're meeting, they're telling me via checklist that they are meeting my standards of work.
They're doing all the things that I say are a must do on every project. Um, it, I'm gonna stop you on Housecall Pro. We just converted two Housecall Pro from ServiceTitan. It was, it has been painful, but, um, do you use what's called pipeline? Yes, HealthPRO. Perfect. Great. Yeah, we're just, we're just getting that launched and I'm excited to use that.
Um, but you wanna talk about pipeline a little bit 'cause Absolutely. We talk about the lead gen and following the lead and the 50 60 conversion and all of that. So we have pipeline, uh, locked in with our marketing company. So every time a lead is generated, it does go into pipeline and pipeline sees the lead, it populates it into a bucket, uh, a digital bucket.
And it notifies me that there's a lead there. Gives me the opportunity to go in and, and either call the customer, text the customer through house, call pro or through my phone and populates some notes. At that point in time, if you don't get a customer either on the phone or you're not able to secure an estimate or the customer.
It is just hard to get ahold of. You can move either into another bucket or you can set automations where it automatically moves to another bucket and Housecall Pro will automatically start reaching out to that customer based off of the parameters, the timing, and the types of communication that you want.
Um, we use a three step process. So after 72 hours, if we have not touched that lead, or if the lead has not communicated, um, with the system, it'll generate an email. And then after that, it'll send a text message. And then after that, it'll make a phone call and it'll do that over a two week period before it deems that lead lost or, or no longer functional.
Um. So we track those. And what's nice about it's that it does provide a report. You can pull out a report at any point in time and evaluate your system and, and whether your timing is working or not working, or if the communication that you've automated in there is the right communication and feeding and generating customer response, or if it's just falling on deaf ears.
Yep. Um. So it's really a, a huge help, especially from a guy that's doing all of the things. Sometimes I just can't get to the leads on a daily basis, and sure, I should be calling every lead and sometimes I just can't. And fortunately, housecall Pro at least gives us a chance and sends a text message right away, and then it'll follow up in 72 hours.
Um, I can tell you that it's probably, uh, I wonder if I can pull the report, but I, I think that it, in the last week, it's generated two jobs. Nice. Out, out of just thin air. Right. Awesome. Yeah. So yeah, this is the system, you know, systemizing the sales process and automating it. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm glad you shared that a little bit with us and, um, yeah, house Call Pro has been great.
I know there's a lot of other CRMs out there. We're not trying to do a big plug for House Call Pro right now, but you and I do have that in common. Yeah. So that. There's a lot of CRMs out there, and, and I know that there's a lot of 'em that are great, and I'm not saying Housecall Pro is necessarily even better than any of the others.
Of course. The one thing that I've absolutely heard, without a doubt from multiple owners, it's the transition from one CRM to the other that is the bane of everybody's existence. So everybody's very fearful of going from one platform to the other. 'cause getting all their information transitioned is terrible.
How was yours? I can't even go there.
I mean, you know, I'm a 26 year company with, you know, over 7,000 clients and you're talking about so much data history. Oh. Um, from photographs to, you know, just account details and notes and Oh my gosh. Um, I will tell you one thing, and this is something that, uh, I could help maybe somebody prevent. So like with Housecall Pro, you have phone numbers.
That and you have multiple phone numbers that you can utilize for different marketing campaigns or whatnot. In ServiceTitan, you could generate a a phone number for every single marketing campaign that you did so that when they used that phone number and called in, you could track the ROI on that specific campaign.
Great. We had over a hundred phone numbers when we were using ServiceTitan and when we transitioned to House Call Pro. Only six of them ported over. Oh no. So we have thousands of customers with phone numbers. Now can they go online and just Google search us and find our current phone number? Of course they can.
But the age demographic of these clients, really, they probably have it like written on a business card on their refrigerator or in their phone as a contact, and they're calling and unresponsive. And, um, this has been extremely challenging. And so anyway, like there's so many things that you couldn't even dream this stuff up that it's gonna happen to you, right?
Um, but not to go through a whole problem solving process, but could you, um, with the information and knowing what customers were reached, could you set up a campaign to reach out to all those customers and offer 'em, like, Hey, we've changed our phone number, but we wanna make sure you have a good current number and here's a 10% coupon for your next service.
Yeah, we're marketing it hard. You know, all of these same clients, of course, we're email marketing to and doing text campaigns and things like that, so we're reaching them slowly but surely, uh, the timeliness of it being the brink of spring and that's when the most phone activity happens, um, is not good.
Um, but the problem is, is that these phone numbers were kept alive. Meaning when customers were calling these phone numbers, it didn't go right. Yeah. It was Sheila Selta's voice saying, Hey, this is a plus pro, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were leaving us a message and, um, we have had not, not had success recovering those messages from ServiceTitan.
Oh. Um, and, you know, not trying to spread bad news about ServiceTitan, I'm just saying that, you know, the, to me that they're sitting somewhere on a server and I would, I would do anything to have them. Um, but we're having to pivot. I'm still trying to work with them. This is all very new, but yeah, it's, it's been, it's been very tricky, but there's, yes, you're right.
Going back to switching software platforms, um, I try to think about, you know, choose one that is gonna take, like, if you can envision the, the. The most capacity of your company and what the needs are gonna be with A CRM and get one that is gonna serve all the way through, like what you envision the largest, you know, size of your company would be.
Um, because you're right. You don't wanna change. Yeah. You don't wanna change. And sometimes we have to. Um, but you know, it's, it, it is, it is very difficult. Thank God I have a really good team that we've all, I mean, this has been all hands on deck for like four months doing this. It's been crazy. I believe it.
I believe it. Well, I hope you're happy with Housecall Pro. I hope it We are. Yeah, we are. It's all of the needs. I mean, I, I inherited 'em. I don't know any other CRM. Um, they came with the franchise and, but at the same time, they've been extremely helpful and extremely moldable to our business. Yep, they are.
Um, I've been really spoiled with reporting on ServiceTitan, and I am starting to learn how to utilize reporting much better in Housecall Pro. I'm, I love to geek out on reports and, um, they really tell you everything that you need to know and where you need to focus. Um, so data is king and so yeah, I'd say all, all in all, it's been a very good experience.
Um, so Brandon, you're, you just joined the huge mastermind. Last year. Correct? That's correct. Great. And how did you hear about the huge, you know, how, what, what brought you into the huge just come to convention the first time? Another perk of being a franchisee. Um, I, our C-O-O-J-S Barry reached out to me and said, Hey man, um, there is a huge convention.
And of course he said, huge convention. I'm like, okay, there's huge conventions all the time. No, no, no. The huge convention Uhhuh was in Nashville. I'm like, okay. So I did a little research and they're like, and he called me back and said, Hey, I got you a ticket. You need to go. I'm like, well, my was that optional?
He said, no, no, no, no. You don't have to go, but you need to go to this site. And so we went. Um, he actually joined me and we got to meet a slew of other service-based home o um, home business operators. Yep. And it was great conversation, just being in the area and seeing what was available. Um. And then we got sold.
He and I both got sold on joining the huge and he's like, man, this, this seems great. I know you're really new. Will you do this? And he actually offered to, um, cover the first three months of the huge, he's like, Hey, if, if it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work. And I will, we'll find a way to break it off and, and we'll cover the cost.
But go to the first three months. I can tell you when I showed up to the huge, I brought my wife as a guest for the first one. And uh, after we were done, we were driving home and both of us were like, I. I like to pride myself on being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with most people and at least understand what's going on.
Man, I was in a room with people that were so far beyond me in some, in all the good ways, right? You wanna surround yourself by the people that are, are where you want to be. Sure. And I was in that room and I was awestruck by both franchise or entrepreneur owners that were doing great things and they were sharing information and they were going through, they were, I was able to talk where I was at and they're like, oh yeah, you just need to create a couple of SOPs and generate, and they were taking such, what I considered hard problems and providing such simple solutions.
And I was just in awe of like, how come I couldn't think of that? And being in that community now, um, over the last six months has been fantastic. I love that. So when you say, um, first of all, I love that you used the word simple because simplifying. The first of the five leadership abilities. And the more that we can simplify and you starting out in your first 18 months, the more you can keep things simple, the more you'll be able to gain that hands-off business.
I'm learning this after all my years. I, I've, I, consequently I've built a pretty complicated entity and now I'm scaling back. I'm trying to simplify. And so, you know, when you're getting started, I would say yes. Thank you for saying that because, um, keeping it simple, keeping it simple, stupid they say, but keeping it simple is really gonna help you, uh, create that entrepreneurial life that you dream of.
Yep. Absolutely. Um, so when you say you joined the huge, uh, you mean that you joined the huge mastermind? Yes, yes. Okay, awesome. And so, um, yeah, I, I love it. What, just gimme one nugget. Like what is one thing? 'cause you were at this recent one in Nashville that was just this past month. I actually missed the one this last Oh, you did?
Okay. I, I watched recordings and, and, and did the homework and everything, but I was, um, I was out of town in California at the time, but, um, yeah, the dokey recordings were great, weren't they? Absolutely. Yeah. The, I can tell you hands down, the biggest takeaway that I've had since I've been there is understanding your market, um, going through the process and evaluating what is out there versus what you're doing.
Yep. Um, completely changed my mindset. I was looking at the market from a perspective of I get a small slice. Because I'm the new guy, I get a small slice of this market that is, it's got 25, 30 other concrete coating companies in it. Um, and I've got hard competition to, to grow. Mm-hmm. Until we sat down, I, I believe it was our first, uh, our first get together.
We sat down and went through and evaluated the market in, in our area and, uh, Sid gave us the, the algorithm and said, Hey look, this is what you need to do and you need to focus on being the biggest fish in the smallest spawn. So find the area that you wanna work and you wanna focus on and, and do the math.
Figure out what that market looks like. I was blown away. Uh, there, there is a billion dollar industry, um, overall in Nashville between commercial and residential. And it's gonna continue to grow in the next 10 years because of the influx of people coming to the Tennessee area. And it. There's no way all of the concrete coating companies that are out there, and I can keep up with it.
So there is a market that we can get to. And I was fearful that I was gonna run out of work or I wasn't gonna be able to generate enough work. And now it's, I was able to turn that completely around on myself and look at it from the perspective of, I'm the one that's holding us back. I need to do marketing, more marketing, I need to do more sales.
It's not that there's not work out there, I just gotta go find it. Right. Yeah. And, um, this is, this is really big and I would, I I, I agree with you that, uh, being part of the mastermind, um, understanding my market, how to be the big fish in the small pond, um, and doing that market analysis and the way that, the way that I've applied it in my company and that, you know, the Mastermind has taught us is, you know, so like for example, my current market, I know that my.
My customer avatar is residential homes. Yes, we do commercial as well, but let's just stay on residential. Residential homes valued 600,000 and above. Great. Now I gotta figure out how many of those are in my market. Okay? Now there's this huge number of houses, 600,000 and above. Now, what's a realistic market share percentage that I think that we can, that we can get, right?
So let's say 10%, 12%, 20%, whatever. Whatever you think. So now you have this number. Great. What is your average ticket? That tells you how much revenue you can generate in that current market. And you know, then they go on to teach you like, okay, now how do you, how do you get that market? Yeah, yeah. Now you know, it's there.
Whatcha gonna do about it? Yeah. Stay tuned. Um, but so yeah, it's gold, right? It's gold. Absolutely. I, it was mind blowing. And that was our, our very first, uh, our very first mastermind that I attended and there was a couple other, um, new guys in there as well. And all of us were, we just, we never looked at it from that perspective.
We'd always looked at it from what we can do right now and not from what's out there and available. And it, it's a game changer for sure. Yeah. And it is very simple. And the same principles apply for a new Chick-fil-A that's coming into a market then, you know. A plus pro that's trying to grow in a current, you know, little coastal market, right?
Like it, the same, same business principles apply and it is a very, um, simple framework that we're, you know, uh, that we're learning while in the huge community. So yeah, thanks for sharing with that and um, I'm excited to meet you virtually, but now I get to meet you in person, Brandon, and it's been lovely to get to know you.
Yeah, thank you for taking the time. This was a lot of fun. Yeah, I, I am, I love your story and I think a lot of things I really appreciate, appreciate you being honest and, you know, sharing your struggles with our, with our listeners. Um, I think that's really important and I know that there's people that are listening that are gonna say, oh, yeah, okay.
Uh, that's very helpful. Um, they're gonna help them avoid making the same mistakes or just knowing like, okay, I need to, I need to be paying attention to these things. So if we can help avoid any of those problems with this huge transformations podcast, that is what we are looking to do. We wanna help entrepreneurs and their entrepreneurial journey and, uh, thank you Brandon for sharing your story with us today.
I love it. Thank you. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the used Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. It as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Jeff Scott, a second-generation window cleaner from Wisconsin and the owner behind Green Window Cleaning, Green Building Maintenance Services, and Safety Green Training. Jeff shares how he started his company from scratch in 2009 after walking away from his family’s business sale, knocking on doors with little more than basic tools and experience. From there, he built a company that now leans heavily on recurring commercial work while also becoming deeply respected for its expertise in rope access, high-rise safety, and training. 
 
Jeff and Sheila also go deep on something that rarely gets enough attention in home services: safety as a real operating system, not just a checklist. They talk through rope descent systems, SPRAT and IRATA training, rooftop risk, job hazard analyses, documented compliance, and the difference between doing dangerous work and doing skilled work safely. At the same time, Jeff opens up about rebuilding his company after major staffing losses, creating stronger culture, empowering his team, and stepping back into growth mode after years of living more passively. It is a sharp episode for service business owners who want to think bigger, lead better, and build a company that is both profitable and professionally run. 
 
Resources
Safety Green Training
Green Window Cleaning
Green Building Maintenance Services
Jeff Scott on LinkedIn
Jeff Scott / Safety Green Training on Facebook
The Go-Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann
Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
The Freedom Path
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship.
Let's dive in.
Hi, I'm Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast. Thank you for joining us today. I have a really special and unique interview with Jeff Scott. Uh, Jeff and I are longtime industry friends and colleagues, and we're gonna take it a little bit different today. We're gonna go a little bit different route and we're gonna be talking about.
Yes, business. But we're also gonna be talking about high rise rope descent, rope access, safety audits, OSHA compliance, um, building JHAs residential rooftop safety. Um, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna get into Jeff Scott's head because he is a second generation window cleaner from Wisconsin. Uh, he was brought up in the high rise world, and this guy's got, um.
He's got level three spr, um, training. He's, he's a wealth of knowledge when it comes to building access and safety training, so this is super cool. This is totally my thing. I love talking about this stuff and, uh, we're gonna bring it to you here. I hope you enjoy this podcast. Stick around and join us. Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer. And today we have a super cool, uh, show because this is like a long time friend of mine, Jeff Scott. Hey Jeff. Hey Sheila. How you doing? I'm doing great. Uh, Jeff Scott is, uh, safety Green training. Also Green Building and maintenance services, green Building Maintenance services.
Uh, also green window cleaning, which is residential company. Mm-hmm. Um, and Jeff, you and I have known each other for probably 18, 16, 18 years. God, that seems like a long time. It's true though. Um, I think we, we met originally through the IWCA. Um, Jeff is a second generation window cleaner. Um, you started as a window cleaner and now you have your companies, I mean, you are, um.
Like when you say that you're a window cleaning professional, you have absolutely excelled in that. You've got your high rise expertise all the way down to your residential. This is gonna be a super fun conversation. Jeff, you wanna tell our audience about yourself? I can. Um, well, I'm Jeffrey. Hello everybody.
Um, hello, Jeffrey. Um, I've been a window cleaner most of my life. I have stepped away from it from time to time to do some other things. I spent a long time in sales. But, um, I was kind of a late bloomer. I started my company up in, I guess it'd be oh nine. I think I was like 37. Um, so what is that, 17 years ago?
Probably a little longer than I, or not quite as long as I've known Sheila. Yeah. Um, I think I met you Sheila through my father. Yeah. Kent. Yeah. And uh, you know, I think the first time I met you was probably in Oconomowoc. Ah. Um, at one of the window cleaner picnics that Gary Mauer used to put on. That's going way back.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we were talking about timeframe, but I think that locks it into when we had met, uh, we had a mutual friend, um, at that time. Yep. Um, but, um, yeah, so that takes, that takes us back. So yeah, I started up in oh nine, um, without a dime in my pocket. Um, but I did have a lot of experience at the time.
Okay. Uh, just knocking on doors, walking up and down the street. Can I clean your windows, you know, into residential? Yep. And, um, so I mean, but your dad, and so tell me, it was Madison window cleaning, right? Right. No, no, no. He was, he was bright way window cleaning. Um, they started up in central Wisconsin.
Right when. Okay. And then, man, I think it was the late eighties, started moving down into the Madison area. Okay. Okay. Started getting on ropes slightly before then. Uh, just in the central Wisconsin area, running a, a spider stage before that. Um, but then, uh, yeah, I think it was the late eighties. They hired a salesman finally and started pushing into the Madison area into some mid-rise work.
And then, um, they sold in, I think it was oh oh eight. Okay. Um, and it was kind of a, a shock, you know, to every, it was, it was kind of a secret sale. Nobody knew about it until it happened. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So at that time, I didn't want to go to work for the new owners. Uh, it was bought by a company called, um, jacks Maintenance.
Okay. Uh, which was a large janitorial company outta the Fox Valley, which is basically runs from Green Bay down towards Madison. Okay. Um, and they, you know, they did the right thing. It was a goodbye for them. Um, you know, uh, Ken to my father sold very well. Um, we don't really even hear about sales of that capacity anymore, what he got for it.
Um, but um, yeah, uh, when I walked out the door, um, I had to do something. I still had a bucket of moping. The squeegee went and bought a little giant ladder. So did you go from the high-rise working with your dad to residential because of like non-compete? Uh, no, I didn't have a non-compete. Okay. Um, so why did I did that?
Because I didn't have the money to buy, you know, high-rise equipment. Okay. Um, I didn't, I didn't have a staff, you know, I couldn't go do it on my own. Um, when I started up, I basically didn't know how I was gonna, how I was gonna feed my daughter, who was five at the time. I didn't know how I was gonna, I didn't know how I was gonna pay the mortgage.
I didn't know how I was gonna make the car payments, you know? Mm-hmm. So I just kind of went back to being a little kid and knocking on doors and walking up and down the street. Love it. So, um, green window cleaning today. What's the size of green window cleaning? What's it look like? Um, well we're kind of a three-headed beast with the green building Maintenance services, green window cleaning services and safety green training.
Mm-hmm. Um, we're probably. 85% large commercial contracted work. That's all recurring revenue. Um, which leaves about, you know, 10 to 12% residential and then safety green training's really kind of a side project. Yeah, that's, what's that? That's you, that's you. I've got, um, two other trainers. Okay. All right. Um, one that, you know, my, my.
Rope access trainer. He's RET certified. He's uh, a climbing gym trainer. Um, he's, uh, a lead trainer for Boulder's Climbing Gym, which is here in Madison. And then he does like a lot of excursions out to Devil's Lake and trains people out there. So he's got a lot of aptitude. Uh, and then we also have a young woman who is our aerial lift operator trainer.
Um Okay. And does all of our in-house stuff and does some stuff like an add-on for our classes as well. But safety and green training, we keep priced as economical as possible. Um, we have to keep it sustainable, but that's really how we give back to the industry. Love that. I love that. Um, so do you have, just like from business structure standpoint, you, it is like one company, but these are three different business units?
Yes. Right now it's, it's still, you know, we were, we've, we've dropped into one LLC, um Okay. And everything. The other two are DBAs. Okay. Um, we are separating our CRMs at this point. Um, but, um, we'll see what happens, you know? Um, we're keeping it all. Safety green will get broken off here in the near future as, 'cause everything else is getting so much bigger.
Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, I'm probably looking at a company sale within the next, if, if I'm, if I still own it four years from now, I'd be surprised. Okay. Yeah. Very good. So I'm assuming that's what's kind of brought you back into the huge community and being in the huge mastermind. Yeah. Yeah. I was living, you know, I'm 52 years old.
Okay. Um, I've been living passively off the company since I was about 45. Um, and, uh, we talked about this before we got on, but I was spending a lot of time at my place out in Breckenridge, Colorado. Mm-hmm. Um, and staying out there November through April and just snowboarding, um, my ass off. I was getting 50 to 60 days in a year religiously chasing storms all powder days.
Um, but then, you know, networking with people that we both know, I won't drop their names on here, but, um, they're like, Jeff, what are you doing? Look at what you have. Like, everybody's coming to you for information. Why aren't you doing this? You could scale this, you know, beyond what you could ever dream of, which is true.
Which is true. So, you know, finally one of those slaps in the face got to me. Yeah. And I started taking a look at it, and then I'm like, you know, what am I doing out here playing in the snow when I could, you know, if I spend another, you know, five years, um, dedicating to this, it turns into something absolutely life changing beyond what I ever dreamed it could be.
I love that. Yeah, I love that. Um, so yeah, just, uh, we've definitely got the Breckenridge thing in common as well. Um, yeah, I was a Bret girl for six years back before I did any of this. Um, and so were you dog teams or something? If I remember right. Yeah. Yeah. I was a back country tour guide. Yep. Tours, dog sled tours, snowmobile tours.
That was my outdoor tour. Sleigh rides and that stuff. Fricking loved it, loved every minute of it. And Jeff and I actually connected at Wolf Creek Pass. We went snowboarding like five or six years ago. So yeah, we've, we've had some fun times together, that's for sure. Um, so. You're now, so you went on your big high country life excursion for five years, and now you're back in, um, Wisconsin.
And what are you doing, like, what's your day-to-day look like right now? Um, I'm kind of a, you know, I'm probably in the office between seven and 8:00 AM most mornings. Um, I'm here 90% of the time. Um, I'm usually outta here by three or four o'clock. Mm-hmm. In the afternoon. Um, but um, right now it's, um, doing a lot of the top end stuff.
Uh, we had our busiest off season ever carried more admin staff through the off season than I ever have. Uh, really realigning our tech stacks. Um, getting a lot of systems in place, setting the org chart up properly. Um, looking at moving some people around that we're in the process of now. Um, taking my office manager, turning her into a vp.
My CSRs moving into a general. Manager style role, um, got a customer's relations person, um, been building a sales program. You know, believe it or not, we've gotten to where we are without a dedicated sales program, um, without really even marketing at all. Um, it's just been a lot of word of mouth working our way through property manager groups, relationship building the old fashioned way.
So, you know, we're really excited because we've got some growth ahead of us. Yeah. It sounds to me like you're, you're recreating your operating system pretty much. Um, we had, we were doing pretty well. We were systemized fairly well. Mm-hmm. But we bottlenecked, um, you know, we, um, so through COVID was a really hard time for us, just keeping everybody busy, right?
Mm-hmm. Uh, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, um, large projects would get moved off. We'd have to find other things to do, and we managed to hold our staff. Entire staff and keep 'em busy through COVID. However, uh, within a year after COVID, because of a whirlwind of storms, um, we lost everybody. Hmm. Um, I got my admin team, but I didn't have a single operational person.
Mm-hmm. So, and that was one of the, the highest stressors I had. Um, I had to jump back in the field, be hands-on again. You know, which I had already. It was hard to transition out of that. Transition back in was hard to find passion for it. Mm-hmm. And grow, grow as a leader at the same time, um, was really hard.
But there were a lot of blessings in disguise, um, because we were able to build a staff in a much better way. Mm-hmm. Um, right now our company culture is probably our strongest asset. It's absolutely beautiful. Um, it's really, we've really built a family here. Um, you know, it's, um, everybody knows each other's families.
Everybody's hanging out together, doing things, you know, off work, hours together. Um, it's super supportive. I love that. You know, how many entrepreneurs I talked to, myself included, that get to a point where we have to break down to build back up. Yeah. Um, I think this is really common, more common than what people think.
Um. I mean, I, I'm even hearing it from people who are new in the industry, just, you know, first, second year and they kind of grew too fast and like, oh my God, wait, we gotta, we have to restructure. And, um, and I think this is, this is really common and it sounds like. The way that you're doing and, and you do, right?
Like your, your business has all of the different roles from the admin to the finance, to the operations, sales, marketing, and we have to, it's all about right people, right seats, getting the right people in there and alignment with the culture, your core values. Mm-hmm. And sounds like that's, that's what you're, what you're doing right now, and you are definitely a visionary, um, because you have so much industry experience and.
Obviously long time tenure in your market and things like that. So you, and then you're kind of seeing the golden nugget at the end, right? Uh, yeah. Well, that's what I'm looking for, but I'm torn, you know, it's, it's not a control thing anymore 'cause I've given that up. Um, you know, I've, I've empowered other people to take that.
Very good. Um, but the, the hard part is if I walk away, what happens? You know, what happens to my team? What happens to my staff? Um, is, would new ownership come in and support them in the same way as they're being supported now? Mm-hmm. Would they be able to continue to show them career paths and growth and, and mentor them the way that, you know, that's been happening?
That's real. Um, yeah. You know, and so that's, that's what makes me hesitate. So for me, if and when I sell, and, you know, that is the plan currently. Um. It's more about the dollar, it's more than about the dollar. Mm-hmm. Um, now it really, I wanna be able to do it in a way where the culture's maintained. Yeah.
Because, you know, a rising, a rising ship, a rising tide does raise all ships and, um, you know, I see so many, you know, private equity firms come in and pretty much got a company. Yeah. You know, ownership walks away, they, they lose the culture. Um, you know, you, you see a lot of wrong hats in the, you know, or, or the right hats in the wrong seats and vice versa.
Yeah. Um, a lot of our competition's been bought up by private equity, you know, in the Milwaukee and Madison markets and, um, thankfully we've thrived through it, you know, um, but um, I don't wanna see that happen to us. Yeah. And the longer that we are in our business, you and I have pretty much been in business the same amount of time.
I'm, I'm 26 years now. And you're right about the same place, right? No, not quite so much. I think you've been in business. Yeah. I think we started in oh 8, 0 9. So what is that? 17 years ago? Okay. Well you definitely have that much experience though. Um, well, yeah. 35 years plus just in high. There you go. Yeah.
So, um, but yeah, I mean, it does, it becomes our life. Um, and there there is something about the legacy of what we've created that we really, genuinely care about. And the people are such a huge part of it. Um, I'm with you a hundred percent on that, so, but kudos to you because, you know, there isn't just one way.
Like I believe in the dream. I believe that. Owners like yourself and myself that have been so invested for so many years into a company and bootstrapped it and built it, um, based on our experience and industry involvement and things like that. Um, I, I think that there's, I think that we can really create any outcome that we want and we can be different.
I agree. You know, um, I'm in a, I wish I had a succession plan more similar to yours. You know, we're your daughters, I, I believe, are moving in and kind of gonna take things and run with them down the road. Um, my daughter really wants no, nothing to do with this whatsoever. You know, she, she grew up and, and saw the stress, which I probably didn't handle as well back then.
You know, we all grow. Um, and, uh, just wants nothing to do with it. Um, it's created a lot of the freedom that I've had to be able to travel with her and, you know, see the world, see the country, um, and do all the things that we've done. Um, but, uh, I'm proud of her for what she's doing, so I've gotta respect that.
Good. Yeah. As you should. And you know, the key word that you said is want. Mm-hmm. Like kids, the kids are never going to do it if they don't want it. Um, one thing my daughter said recently is she said, mom, my, I have, I have orange and blue blood flowing through my body. I'm like, holy crap. All right. She's for real here.
Um, but, uh, yeah, so. I kind of wanna divert because Jeff, you have something very unique that we can talk about. Um, that's a little bit different from most podcasts we do here at the huge, and that is in regard to safety, um, and honestly professionalism in the industry. Um, so will you talk a little bit about, uh, uh, safety green training and.
What that looks like and like the certifications that you've held and all the training that you've done, because this is really important. Um, you know, I could go back to like oh eight when I started training, um, well earlier than that in the IWCA days, but, um, it really probably started back in the late eighties.
Um, you know, as a young man still in high school. Um, we were doing some crazy stuff, you know, on road. Like what? Well, stuff that scares me to think about now. Okay. We didn't, we didn't know what an anchor was, you know, until, right. You know, a decade ago, right? Yep. Um, we were still in seat harnesses. Um, a lot of times we're on one line.
Um, we're using descent devices that are very rudimentary now. We were tying off to things that makes my heart murmur now. Right. You know, um, you know, back then there were deaths in the industry almost monthly. Um, and, uh, growing up through the IWCA because of, of Kent, my father mm-hmm. Um, I've always been really well networked and if I didn't know people personally, I usually knew something about their families or their companies and, and all these deaths and injuries really affected me personally.
Uh, they put a lot of fear in the back of my mind. One, when's it gonna be my turn? 'cause I knew the risks we were taking. I knew that we were doing stupid shit. Or when is it for my coworkers? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I just kinda lived a life of fear. Um, and the back then, you know, it wasn't even bravery, it was ignorance.
Mm-hmm. You know? Um, you didn't know what you didn't know. We didn't, but we're still scared all the time because you didn't know how to be safe either. Right. Um, so then in the late nineties, I think it was 97, 98, something like that, um, we went to, my dad and I went to the very first SPRAT training session that existed.
Um, will you enlighten our, uh, audience on what sprat is? I'm sorry. Uh, RA is Society of Professional Access Technicians. Okay. Um, it's, um, probably it in ida, the, um. Industrial Rope access trade Association, um, are probably the two leading bodies in rope work in the world. Mm-hmm. Um, Ida is more international, spreads more North American, but spreading very international quickly.
Um, and this is, this is rope access for all different applications, not just window cleaning. I mean, we're talking windmills. We're talking, there's actually very few window cleaners that hold SPR certifications by percentage, uh, and fewer yet that are like spra SPR threes. And there's exceedingly few companies that run actual, um, industrial rope access programs with level threes on board that are documented properly.
Mm-hmm. Um, and they're set up properly. Is that, so just question, and again, I, I really want the audience to understand what we're talking about, but is that because as a window cleaner, we're just descending, coming straight down? Um, not well, so since like 2018. Um, OSHA now recognizes two types of, of rope access, uh, rope descent systems.
Mm-hmm. Which most window cleaners, um, understand and utilize if they're certified or not. Mm-hmm. Um, which is, uh, you're limited at 300 feet. With authorized user training for rope descent systems and you are required to use engineered certified anchor points, right, that have to be properly certified and documented.
Mm-hmm. Um, so that's required to do most window cleaning. Compliantly. Um, if you want to go over 300 feet or attached to anything other than a certified anchor point, then you need a full on industrial rope access team. Now, industrial rope access is what OSHA uses as a term. Um, but once you have a full team, and that could be through an organization like IA or sprat or if you want to use the an CZ 3 59 document, you could do an in-house program if you wanna keep reinventing the wheel, we choose to take on the Sprat model.
Mm-hmm. Um, so all of our people are, are certified. Um. But then you can go to the moon and you, you're no longer required to use engineer certified anchor points. Um, you still have to go through a lot of the same documentation, uh, but as a sprat three, um, you can do that. Uh, you are a qualified person. You can go in and do the if, if necessary.
Uh, an engineer doesn't necessarily have to pull test something. They can make a determination. Um, it gets pulled, tested if it's in question. Same thing for a Sprat team. Um, so we can go to the moon and we can go to the ground without things that, you know, may or may not have anchor points. Um, it also, it, there is a lot higher level of training to become, um, have to have a spprt team.
Um, where RDS, which, you know, I do documented authorized user training, uh, for RDS teams within Safety Green, um, you just need training by a qualified person that has to check all the OSHA boxes, right? Right. And then you become an authorized user. So even as an authorized user, you still have to be under the supervision of a competent person.
Well, within RDS, the employer can appoint the competent person, um, based off of their own criteria. Uh, the whole program needs to be set up by a qualified person, and the OSHA definition is very bad. So basically, if you have, you know, the right competence, confidence, skill sets, you know, um, and understand what you're doing, you can deem yourself a qualified person.
So guidelines are very loose for RDS, right? As long as you're documenting things properly, you can pretty much get into an RDS program. Um, where industrial rope access, such as sprat, is much more stringent to get into. Um, where instead of just getting authorized user training, you actually have competency tests, um, competency skill sets that have to be passed.
Um, those tests are given by independent evaluators, appointed by Sprat, not the training companies. So the training companies, um, are basically getting evaluated as well. That keeps their standard very high. Uh, once you become, um, a level one sprat tech, you have to docu. Well, for Sprat you have to document 500 hours.
For rat it's a thousand. Um, and then within three years, you have to either recertify at the level you're at, go up a level, or wash out and start over. So then the same thing happens at level two To get to level three, it takes most people about nine years to become a level three, and you cannot have a compliant industrial rope access program without at least one level three on staff.
Okay. Technically, you can't even log hours unless you're under a level three. So what level have you achieved in your career? I'm level three currently. Okay. Yeah. Um, that's awesome. So, um, what would a, what would a train the train, well, let me ask you this question first. I've kind of always wanted to know this.
How many buildings in the United States are over 300 feet? Oh, a lot. Lot depends on metro. Yeah, it depends on the metro. Um, okay. But at Madison, none because everything's limited by the capital. Right. So this is all mid-rise. It's all like 13 stories down. Okay. But you get into, you get in, even in the state of Wisconsin, I think there's two or three now, not a lot, but you get into Chicago and there's more than you can count.
You get into Nashville, there's more than you can count. You know, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh. Um, all the major me metros, you know? Yeah. You know, 50% of the buildings are over 300 feet. Mm-hmm. You know, so if, if an, if a certified rope access company was to go into a metro and wouldn't have to throw other companies under the bus, but just start educating property managers and building owners on their own liabilities.
Mm-hmm. Um, it'd be pretty easy to walk through and take some work, wouldn't it? You know, and since what, 2018? I think the same date, maybe 2016. OSHA has the multi-employer citation policy, which defines, I believe it's five different definitions for employer. Um, the us the contractor coming on site falls under three of those definitions.
The property manager or building owner, because they're hiring us, we're their employee. Um, they fall under three of those definitions and they overlap. And that's what OSHA uses to now not only cite the contractors, but cite the buildings and property owners as well. Hmm. You know, so you go in, you go into these property manager groups, you know, sit down at a boardroom table, put up the PowerPoint and show them what all their liabilities are, and then come through and show them how you're going to mitigate those liabilities.
Head start to turn. Yeah. And hence all the anchor companies start popping up everywhere. Right. Uh, well, anchor companies are needed for 300 feet and down. Yep. Um, well, for, so you can do, utilize RDS. Right? And don't get me wrong, even as, you know, uh, even as a sprat company, um, we like anchor points. Mm-hmm.
But, you know, we don't have to use them like we can. There's a market force without them as well. Yeah. Um, and what designates. A certified anchor point. What, what, what does the anchor point have to have to be certified? Well, so it has to be certified by an engineer. Um, they're manufactured for 5,000 foot pounds of resistance.
Mm-hmm. To take a shock load four time with a four time multiplier. Mm-hmm. Um, they have to be. Either deemed capable of doing that, or they have to be pull tested to half their working load limit, which is 2,500 foot pounds. Right. Um, those are usually installed. There are anchor companies that that's, that's all they do.
But most of them will then either sub or, you know, work with engineers that have to stamp those off. Um, and that's state by state by the definition. Um, some states it can, it has to be a certified structural engineer. Oh, I think I just lost you. Did I lose you? I'm here. You're here. Let me bring you back up.
Do you hear me? Yeah. For some reason. Oh, there you're, I just lost my screen. Sorry. That's okay. Um, you know, so the definition that, uh, needs to be utilized as state by state, uh, if that can just be a standard engineer, has to be a certified structural engineer in different states. It, it's, there's different requirements to reach that status.
Okay. You know, but we don't only train window cleaners. We train all the trades. Uh, we do a lot of work with structural engineers now that are doing facade inspections. Um, we do a lot of work with, um, high steel workers, electricians. I've trained plumbers to repel into elevator shafts to do plumbing work.
Um, cockers, glazer tuck pointers, you know anybody that's working at height. Yeah. Well, I know the whole building envelope, maintenance industry is becoming really big and a lot of large companies across the United States are using window cleaning to get in the door. Um, so that they can sell a multitude of other building services for the facade.
And, um, that's why we spun off Green Building Maintenance Services, you know, 'cause we're out there with our eyes on it. But, you know, when you're, we're the ones that are gonna find all this damage or the things that need to happen, so then become the expert and then either you're doing the work or bringing in people or taking a piece, you know, it's, yeah, it is, it is a window because window cleaning is the maintenance work that's, you know, repetitive that has to happen.
Yeah. So cool. Um, that was loud. Did you hear that? The theme, the, the ding? Yeah. Yeah, that's now I think that's why I lost the screen. My phone is connected to my computer. Someone messages come through at like, wipes off. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. Wow. Okay. Um, now that was a lot of information in like three minutes, wasn't it?
You know, it's so important though because, um, with window cleaning, and, I mean, this applies to pressure washing too. Everything we're talking about, we're talking about access, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and. You know, a, I think a lot of the listeners are doing primarily residential, maybe mid-rise, um, lift work, things like that.
Mm-hmm. But this is, this is a whole nother level and I think the understanding and what you're telling us about, and understanding the knowledge and expertise and training that goes into breaking into that level of services, um, you know. It's, it's a highly skilled thing. Um, and then of course, the accountability, the, like you said, the documentation, having, you know, bonafide programs, training to make sure that you are compliant, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, this is, this is really good information for our listeners and kind of like a breakthrough in my opinion, um, for a lot of people that are listening and really thank you for that. Um. So let's, can we kinda, um, I wanna kind of just dumb down a little bit. And I do wanna talk about safety for the typical listener that's talking that's here listening to us.
Um, what would a safety program look like in, or what does a safety program look like in, um, green window cleaning that does a lot of residential work. Uh, on our res, well, our residential side really does kind of mirror our high-rise side. I mean, you've got all the same things in place. Um, like what? Well, you've gotta have documented training.
Right, right. Uh, the boxes have to be checked. They have to be signed off on. Um, uh, competency has to be the, the supervision has to be there. Um, a JHA job, hazard analysis has to be done on every project regardless of how small, um, you know, power lines and things like that are super dangerous around residential homes.
Um, yep. Residential rooftops are much more dangerous than what we do on rope out in the big world, you know? Um, agreed. I know. So like, yes, there's a lot of rope accidents. I'm familiar with them because of what we do, but there's a lot more people falling off of residential roofs. And I've got several very close friends that their lives have been changed, um, because they've come off roofs and, um, you know, most residential roofs don't have anchor systems.
Um, there's not a thing that you can just tie off to and say, that's solid, that's bond proof, you know, I'm good. Um, so. Ba, you know, the big thing was gutter cleaning. There's so many companies that are still walking gutter lines with a leaf blower, you know, because it's, it's economical. Yep. You know, until they have an accident.
Um, but, uh, we've got a, you know, we don't get off the ladder. Um, you know, we use a pole and pull everything towards us. Uh, water poles have really changed the game. You know, you can reach dormers and things like that with the water fed pole nowadays. Um, yep. You know, most of my career and, you know, um, probably part of your career, waterfront poles didn't exist, you know?
Yeah. So you ladders and getting on rooftops and doing crazy stuff. Um, but, you know, uh, then there's anything that's below, I don't even remember what it is off the top of my head. It's like a, a four 12 pitch maybe. Yep. Anything below that, you, you know, you basically have a leading edge that you wanna stay away from by a company.
Policy for us is 10 feet. Yeah, I think it's, yep. Six feet. Yep. Yeah, for us it's 10. Okay. Um, but, um, anything that's steeper than that, you need to be in fall restraint. Yep. You know, not fall arrest, but fall restraints. Uh, I believe, which, you know, I don't, I'm a business owner. Which difference? Yes. Well, fall restraint.
So fall arrest requires that 5,000 pound anchor. Right. And something that can withstand that. Uh, fall restraint, I believe code is 350 foot pounds. Uh, the same as a railing, right? Mm-hmm. Um, something that you can lean against but not get over the leading edge. Fall arrest saves you once you've taken a fall, stops your shock load, fall restraint prevents you from getting into the fall situation.
That's right. Yep. Yep. Um, so you know what we do? We do a lot of, because we have the equipment and you know, my, a lot of my people are around this all the time. We, we throw ropes over stuff when we can. You know, we're tying to deck posts and trees and trucks and lifts and, and things like that. Um, in this area, because we're pretty far north, um, people don't like you, you know, putting roofers into their roofs because of penetration, right?
And, and leaking and things like that. It, it's a really tough sell. Um, but, um, you know, there are jobs that we will turn down. There's a lot of low hanging fruit out there where you don't have to put yourself in precarious situations. We're not the contractor for everybody. Um, so, you know, it's something that we can't accomplish safely and compliantly.
We don't do it. Um, and we, we are compliant across the board because, you know, we're safety green training as well. So we're out there, we're on the social media. My people are taking pictures. People know who we are and so we're always under the microscope. Um, if I can, I wanna share how we approach it at a plus PRO Services, and that's, um, so.
If there is root. If there is work above or on a roof. On a roof. So meaning we have to access a, let's face it, the equipment that we have available today with soft washing and the power wash equipment and the water we can throw and everything like we have, like we are poised very well to be safe. Right?
Yeah. Our, like we talked about, that stuff comes up, but these houses and the way they're designed and the way architects design 'em, they put very little. Effort into thinking about long-term maintenance and how you're gonna get to these things safely by, 'cause we're really talking about OSHA 1910 walking, working surfaces, right?
Mm-hmm. So, um, if there's roof, if, I'm sorry, if there's work on that, we have to access the roof. Basically what we do is bing, that's a trigger that now there needs to be a safety work plan in place. A JHA, which is a job hazard analysis, and that work that requires getting on the roof is now a separate line item on the quote with those other components at a charged a, a specific charge rate.
Because now there's, you know, roof rigging involved specialized equipment, and you have to have competent people. And so that gives our client the option to opt in, pay for that service. Right, which is specialized for opt out. So maybe it's not cleaning a widow's peak on the top of a three story beach house or maybe it's not right.
So that is one way that, that we've tried to work around. Um, 'cause and you're right, if it's dangerous, we definitely wanna walk away. We don't wanna walk away. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the home. That's right. Right. You just can't do that piece. That's, and that's, that's kind of how I've carved it out at, at our company.
Um, and, you know, and with that, so like going back to the training program, uh, company like ours or our listeners, where are they finding all, all of the safety training to be able to have the documented program? What do you recommend? Well, there's lots of, um, organizations out there. Um, you know, you're very, um, in depth with the IWCA.
They've got a, a great residential rooftop flooring program. Um, we've seen enough of it, you know, um, to know that it's quality and it can be utilized. Um, yeah. Um, you know, thanks, thanks for bringing that up. Because like the, the IWCA, the PW and a, um, those two organizations focus really heavily on safety and so.
Really, when you are members of these organizations, then you have access to the safety training. And it's a, it's a program that you can implement into the company and provide the documentation and the ongoing safety training. Um, so that you're compliant. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, and it really comes down to, you know, understanding the OSHA standards.
Um, you can use those as guidelines, understanding the, the ANSI standards. You can use those as guidelines. Um. For the most part, OSHA doesn't really create rules. Um, they cite a lot of ANSI standards, American National Standards Institute, um, and uh, OSHA is not law. OSHA is the minimum standard of safety.
So as long as you're documenting properly, um, and you're working above that standard, you can really do what you will. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, um, if you're not documented in OSHA's eyes, it didn't happen. You know, so when you have your toolbox talks, when you have your monthly, quarterly, weekly safety meetings, whatever you're doing, um, that all needs to be documented.
You know, write an outline, check the boxes, have people sign up on 'em. Yeah. Um, and you need to make sure supervision is in place. Yep. And there's a lot of automations, um, out there, uh, programs, uh, software systems and things like that that you can implement to be able to kind of automate this process. Um, that includes like safety training videos and things like that.
Um, so like many of us are familiar with Safety Advocate, Mike Draper's product, um, you see a lot of that in, in both the IWCA and the PWA. Um, and he, he's done a great job at making it, um, easy to implement into companies. Yeah. But like, could a company come to you and say, Hey Jeff, can you come in and train my people?
Um, they could, um, you know, you have to fill the role as a qualified person. But I'm typically going, I'm not going to embrace, um, a lot of residential ladder rooftop training, stuff like that. Yeah. Um, my hands are super full in the rope world. Yeah. Um, I train, uh, you know, a lot of companies with and without, within and without window cleaning.
Probably more, you know, even outside of window cleaning now. Okay. Um, do a lot of rigging, consulting, rescue, standby, um, writing up work plans, um, putting use plans together. Um, going through and helping them price out access things. Um, I do a lot of fall arrest, um, anchor system consulting, um, things like that.
I work with a lot of engineering companies. Um, we're, we'll actually be out in Pittsburgh this summer doing the stadiums, doing a lot of facade work and inspections. Um, nice window cleaning's, just, um, it's a gateway, right? Yeah. Yeah. To get you into all these other things. But we, um, you know. Safety Green's wheelhouse is really, um, rope descent systems and industrial rope access swing stage.
Um, more in the, um, in the highrise world. Mid-rise, high-rise, world, high access. It's, you know, um, while we, while Green Window cleaning services operates in the residential world and we understand safety, so it's easy for us, um, you know, we are not, we're not the the residential trainer. Yep. Okay. That's not something we embraced.
Okay. Well, um, just to, you know, again, this is so incredibly valuable. Um, I hope our listeners think it's as valuable as I do. Um, but back to the business. Um, share with us a couple things that you're going through, um, that are, are difficult right now with what you're trying to do. Um, you know, we've just overcome some things that.
It seems like in every, not catastrophe but challenge, there's always that silver lining that we hear about, you know, becomes a blessing after the fact. Um, you know, a few years back we lost a very major client, um, which was devastating for us. Um, however. And, you know, it's, it's like they say it's not how many times, you know, you fall down, it's how many times you get up.
So, you know, while we were getting up and dusting off, we learned to diversify in a better way. Um, really, really, um, uh, foster relationships, but at, but at the same time, not let, like one relationship hold too much power over us. Um, you know, so just learning how to run a business and not putting all your eggs in one basket.
Has, has been a huge lesson, um, losing all of our clients or losing all of our operational staff after COVID, you know, and being able to redesign and, uh, hire in a better way and create a better culture, um, has been amazing. Um, team building, you know, is empowering other people. Um. Coming up as a window cleaner, I was out there trying to be the lead technician and do everything myself and, and push from the front.
Um, and while that's very gratifying, it's also very limiting, right? Yeah. Uh, so learning to empower other people, set up the systems, set up the programs, um, so that you can step away and actually scale the thing. Um, you know, it diversifying allowed us to, you know, hit that seven figure mark. Uh, we put on like we, after that kick in, you know.
That, that kick, we, um, we, we put on 20% hit seven figures, but we didn't stop there. You know, it's, we did three years after that with 20% each year. Nice. Um, up to now, which, um, really showed us that we do have something scalable, sustainable here. You know, that, um, any one person can be taken outta the equation, including myself.
Um, and it's gonna, it's gonna survive. It's gonna thrive. Love that, create the machine, you know, that's, that's gonna do that. So there's been a lot of challenges, um, and, and they're ongoing. And the biggest challenge is personal growth. You know, always becoming a better person and, um, learning how to deal with people in a better way and, and mentor people and, and show them career paths.
And, um, your company can't evolve until you do. You know, so you gotta put in the work, you gotta do it. Um, we were, we were fortunate. We had our, um, we're, we're a seasonal company. Um, you know, we're about eight and a half months a year, you know, so we've gotta make our knot in a lot, in a, in a short period of time.
But we had our big onboarding meeting. Um, just a few weeks ago for the season, which, you know, I think it was March 1st or shortly after, and we did, um, a whole program on emotional iq, you know, with for a bunch of blue collar people. And we thought when we put this together, we were like, man, you know, this is gonna be over their heads.
They're not gonna be interested. Um, but we had a few hard dynamics on a couple of teams that we wanted to address. So the whole team got, uh, an emotional IQ tra, um, program. And afterwards they were so receptive. It was amazing. It's like told us this is some high level stuff. And for us to be on a team where this hits home, you know, feels really good.
It's really gratifying to the point where afterwards they want emotional IQ stickers for their helmets, you know, and they want cars every time, so, you know, they achieve something. Um, I love that. Yeah. So it's, it's uh, it's been fun, you know, there's been a lot of challenges and you overcome them. Ne grow, uh, life is what happens outside of our comfort zone, you know?
Um, yeah, anxiety and turn it into excitement. 'cause your world's gonna expand 100%, man. Um, so to. Joining the huge mastermind. What, what have you, I know you're pretty new. I think you came on back in the fall of last year. Mm-hmm. Um, so what, what have you gotten out of it? Oh, so much, so much so quickly. Um, you know, whenever you get into a room of people, um, who have a lot more to offer than you do, um.
And everybody does in one way or another. Um, you learn quickly. And you know, within the mastermind group there's many, many different types of companies. Um, mostly service companies. Yeah. Um, many, many different types. And. When you hear about everybody else's trials and tribulations and how they've overcome them, um, one, it puts you, it, it is Rader to begin with because you realize you're not doing this alone.
These aren't, you're not the only one going through challenges and most of them are fairly universal. Um. And when you're able to give of yourself and then be open enough to receive, um, there's things you can bring back that are revolutionary. Mm-hmm. You know, as far as systems or even just access to people, uh, you know, finding the who not the how.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the books, even just coming home with the books and reading the books has been mind blowing and evolutionary and, and it's been a lot of growth and, you know, um, dedicating to doing the work and, um. You know, finding people within your own company and empowering them with the tools to do what they need so that you can, you know, keep being the visionary.
Um, yeah, I, I could not do this without integrators. I've got, you know, I've got four admin staff that blow my mind every day, um, of what they're able to accomplish. And, um, you know, at the same time, their minds work a little differently. They don't always have the vision. Um, but, um, when we all get together as a team, it's mind blowing.
Things happen. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's the ideal relationship right there. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, the people involved, every single person is amazing. Yeah. Um, just the fact that they're there shows how much they wanna succeed, um, how much they wanna learn and willing to give and learn. And it's, it's, uh, it's been super cool.
I wouldn't give it up. Awesome. I love to hear that. Well, I was super stoked when I saw you. I mean, we were in the room together, uh, in Nashville and we've known each other so long, and it wasn't until lunchtime that I even noticed they were there. I was like, whoa, Jeff, what are you doing here? Um, so that was really cool for me.
And that's like a full circle thing. I love seeing other people that, you know, have been invested in the industry for so long, um, getting involved in. That's, that's, it's just awesome. So this has been such a really unique and enlightening conversation today. Um, I hope you know how much I want you to know how much your experience and knowledge, um.
It really will propel a lot of thought by people listening today. Um, and really, and the safety is such a huge thing, and I know that's just a portion of what we talked about, but it's something that's not talked about enough. Um, and so, you know, I just really applaud you for everything that you've accomplished and how much knowledge that you've gained in your career and you're helping other companies.
Be safe and, um, and, you know, succeeding in your own company and doing all the cool things and, and, you know, cultivating cool culture, great people. So kudos to you, Jeff. Well, thank you. You know, in my mind, I think it's a bit selfish of me, um, being able to give back to the industry. Like, this is what allows me to sleep at night.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, because I've led a life on rope and at heights. Um. You know, every so often I wake up with nightmares where I jump like I'm falling, right? Mm-hmm. And that typically happens when I take time off from giving back to the industry through training and other consulting and other avenues.
And so I think, you know, that's, it's how I selfishly sleep at night. You know, and then for and for fun, you know, I don't feel anxiety when I am doing these crazy things anymore. Well, things that appear crazy because I understand how safe they can be. So by training, I can, I can thrive and live through all these new people's anxiety as they're learning, you know?
Yeah. So it's, um, it's, it's, it's gratifying and I think I get way more than I give. Have you been given a copy of the Go-Giver? Book, not only have I been given a coffee, a copy, um, Uhhuh we did in our weekly, um, admin meetings. We went through it chapter by chapter. Um, freaking love that. We went through that and used it for staff training.
Um, uh, we've used other books like, um, Jocko Willings Extreme Ownership Series. Um, I used, uh, some of that for the admin staff. Then there's like the, uh, I think the third one is like the operations manual, um, for extreme ownership. I went, used my whole leadership team and we went through that whole thing, applied it to life and applied it to the company, you know, chapter by chapter every week.
Uh, there's been a few other things, but yeah. But, uh, yeah, the Go-Giver ISS great. I actually bought the whole series of them. I mean, the one that you, you walked home with is just the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, pretty awesome. I gave a copy to everybody in my company for Christmas. Um, it's really become really the basis of our core values in the company and really our culture.
So, um, it's, you know, it's, it changing, like we've had to do a lot of overhaul in the company. So, but that really gave us the, the story. To be able to base who we wanted to be and to start implementing that. So yeah, kudos to you, man. I fricking love it. Yeah, kudos to you. You're running a hell of an operation yourself.
Yeah. You're giving back to the industry as much as anybody with your involvement. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, I love it. It's in my heart and it's given a lot to me. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's for the same reason as you. I, I wanna, I wanna see people succeed as professionals in this industry. My dad always said, it's not what you do, it's how you do it.
And, um, so yeah, we're window cleaners, we do soft washing, power washing, all that sort of thing. But it's like, yeah, we wanna be, we wanna be recognized as professionals. Um. Yeah. So, and, and I wanna see that for everybody. And so this, without a doubt, this conversation will help that it will, because people listening are like, wow, there is really a lot, there's a lot to know and a lot to excel to.
Um, so, you know, I'd like to put myself out there. Um. Like I said, uh, we, I, for us, safety Green is how we give back to the industry. It's not a revenue, uh, center for us. Um, so if you want advice, you know, reach out, give us a call, you know, um. It's, uh, unless I've gotta travel outta town or something, we're usually just giving you the advice.
You know, we're not, we're not charging you for anything. We can set you up with, uh, compliance packages and a lot of things that can outline everything you need just free of charge. Um, you know, we, we, we've created it, we use it. Uh, for us it's more about keeping the industry safe than, you know, creating any kind of a revenue from it.
Um, so if it's going to send yourself and your, your, your workers. Home safely every night. Um, we'd like to be able to contribute to that. Awesome. Well, we are at the end of our time, but like I said, so much gratitude for what you've shared with us today and, um, everybody knows how to find Jeff. And, um, thank you for being part of the huge community.
Jeff. Hey, it's privilege. Yeah, you've definitely, um, you, you coming in and being a part is, uh, so beneficial to really the entire industry, but to the huge community as well. So kudos to you. Thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. And, um, you know, we'll be seeing you soon. I hope so. Okay. All right.
Thanks everybody. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
And scroll down and click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Brad Davis of Best Exterior Cleaning in Seattle, Washington, to unpack one of the most honest kinds of growth stories in home services: rapid sales success followed by the hard reality of building operations that can actually support it. Brad shares his unconventional path from ironworker and crane operator to top-producing real estate agent and eventually exterior cleaning business owner, explaining how he helped grow the company from about $60,000 to $600,000 in a year through relentless networking, outreach, follow-up, and sheer volume of sales activity.
 
Brad and Sheila also dig into what happened after that explosive growth. Brad opens up about the breakdowns that came from scaling too fast without strong enough systems, including hiring issues, poor training, inconsistent job quality, operational chaos, and the financial pain of expensive mistakes. The conversation then shifts into what he is building now: clearer technician levels, stronger onboarding, better accountability, a more structured training process, and a roadmap for creating real career paths inside the business. Along the way, they talk about leadership, culture, recurring revenue, commercial versus residential work, and why long-term success in service businesses depends not just on selling hard, but on creating simple, scalable systems that help people win.
 
Resources:
Brad Davis – Best Exterior Cleaning
Brad Davis on LinkedIn
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Welcome today to today's Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer here with you and I am interviewing Brad Davis. Best exterior cleaning outta Seattle Washington. Fascinating story about Brad. I met him recently in the huge mastermind group and I had the pleasure of interviewing him today. Um, this is a guy who was an iron worker journeyman, got his spine crushed, uh, moved into real estate, became a top producing real estate agent, um, rookie of the year, and ultimately started an exterior cleaning company.
And sounds to me like he can sell like crazy and we're gonna talk a lot about that. But he also, 10 Xed his company. One year going from 60,000 to 600,000 and he shares the trials and tribulations and the really difficult things that came along the way of that type of rapid growth. And we dive into that today and, uh, we have a great conversation and talk a lot about training.
We talk a lot about. Sales. And, um, by the way, he's an excellent, um, digital creator, has excellent video content. Highly suggest you check out his stuff on social media. Um, and yeah, we're learning together here at the Huge Transformations podcast and really enjoy you joining us and listening to Brad Davis's interview and promise.
You're gonna find some gold and you're gonna learn some things that either A, you can relate to. Or B, can help you prevent making some of the same mistakes that we do as entrepreneurs. So welcome to the huge community, and thank you for listening to today's show. Hello. Hello everyone. This is Sheila Selzer with The Huge Transformations Podcast.
And thank you for joining us today. We have Brad Davis, Brad's with Best Exterior Cleaning outta Seattle, Washington, and, uh, a new, um, attendee with our huge mastermind group. Brad, welcome. Thanks, uh, thanks for having me. Uh, yeah, I'm exterior cleaner out of Seattle, Washington. Uh, happy to be here. Really love the huge convention.
Yeah. So Brad, I, uh, you and I got to know each other a little bit whenever, uh, at one of the recent masterminds and we connected on the safety topic. Don't know if we're gonna get into that today, but, um, happy to. But, um, I'm just really excited to be able to get to know you a little bit better and share, you know, your experiences with our, with our viewers.
Um, you know, I see that you've done some real estate. I see that you've done some iron work and you're about two years into your, uh, company in the exterior cleaning space. So, c tell us, tell us a little bit of your background please. Yeah, so, uh. So like a lot of entrepreneurs, I, uh, didn't do well in high school, uh, A DHD and dyslexia.
And so that was a struggle. So I became an iron worker outta high school, um, four year, four plus years. Um, after being an iron worker, I was nearly crushed to death at work. Um, I have four fuse vertebrae in my lower back. Had to learn how to walk again. Took multiple back surgeries and years of physical therapy.
Um, and I say it like it's nonchalant, but you know, it's kind of normal for me, uh, now. And so then I, um, after that I got into construction cranes, uh, was doing like mobile cranes and, and tower cranes, um, for a while. And then got an opportunity to work at Boeing, was a overhead crane operator at Boeing for five years.
And then, um, started a, uh, cannabis processing company out of Oregon. Um, we. They make marijuana products. Mm-hmm. Um, realized I was in over my head, but I was a part of like a group that started it and decided I just didn't want to be a part of it. So I left that, uh, got into real estate, got like a top, um, top producer, uh, one year and rookie of the year, my first year.
And, um, rookie of the year. Yeah. So they gave like a rookie of the year for our office. There were like 200 agents. Um mm-hmm. There was like five, five, uh, five rookies, five new people. And so I, uh, I, I actually, uh, proudly won it by quite a bit. Um, and then I got, uh, top five, uh, real estate agents in my offices, um, the next year.
And then my third year things just slowed way down and I was just, look, I, it just wasn't. What I wanted to do long term. And so I looked for something that I could, a machine that I could build. I wanted to build a business that I could slowly work my way through every single position to where I could then be able to, um, have a asset that works.
And so I knew right away to get, you know, coaching and training and things like that. Um, my first, uh, we started in September of 24. Mm-hmm. Um, September, October, November, and then December. Um, that combined, I did about $60,000. Um, and then after, uh, and then, and then, so that was 20 24, 20 25, uh, we pushed really hard.
I, uh, essentially like brought on a partner who had, um, a really small, like one man show business that did a lot of multifamily. Okay. And I, um, essentially what I say is I took what he had and I put gas on it, and we did. Um, and he did like about 200 or less a year. Um, but he had a lot of, like, his wife was going through cancer treatment and, um, had two small kids and just couldn't really grow it.
Um, there's just too many hats for him to wear between the business and home. Mm-hmm. Um, and so he, he, we partnered up and we did 600 K last year. And so we just like, uh, and it was, and about three quarters of the way through it all started like falling. So, um, I thought this was going to, you know, like I was selling and things were going really great and we just didn't have systems that really made what, like made it work.
It was just like we were going off of. Momentum and just trying to make everything happen. And about three quarters of the way through the year, I was getting pulled out a lot for, um, uh, about, actually probably about halfway through the year I was getting pulled out of, of selling to go and fix problems and deal with things.
And we just, my focus couldn't be in, in sales and trying to make things happen. So, um, we were just having to, you know, try and, and we were, we weren't training people as well as we could. We didn't have as good expectations as we could. We weren't hiring that well. We were just kind of doing everything okay.
But we were selling really well. Okay. So it was a lot coming in, a lot of problems. And then we were delivering, but the, but we'd have jobs that were big, that were like, oh, this is gonna take us a week. And then it took us a week and a half or two weeks because. The problems. Right. And can can I stop you for a second?
Yeah. So I just heard you say that you 10 x your company in a year. Yeah. You did that through sales. So can you take us, can you take our listeners through your sales process? 'cause that's, that's pretty damn good. Thanks. Um, my sales process, yeah. Was, uh, what do you think was hardly a sales process? I felt like though it's, you know, there's something to it.
Um, so like the main, so what I did was I looked for, I got lists of, of multifamily, um. Of like commercial slash like multifamily, um, contacts. And then I would, um, and so that's, that's phone numbers and emails. And then I also, um, got connected with, um, the, our local CI, um, and so I, which is like an organization that focuses on, um, education and, uh, and mar uh, networking in the multifamily space.
Okay. So they, so now I'm a part of the education board on the, for like the organization. So we. Work on, like putting together events that can help teach, uh, homeowners of multifamily and property managers and what we are called business partners. Um, and so that it kind of puts that together and it teaches everybody like, like there's certain things that people need to learn, uh, contract law, um, just some of the, like the understanding of what needs to be done in some of these properties.
And it's everything from, they do have people that are just their own single family home. It's not very often. It's normally that they'll have like owners of, um, you know, town homes that have like five town homes up to like these like really massive properties. And so, uh, so a lot of networking. Uh, we're a part of also a, um, BNI group, which we don't get a lot of, like a lot of like single family.
Home stuff. Sure. Um, but really it was just cold outreach or meeting people in person. Right. Um, it's, we did, we ran Facebook ads. I would say like a lot of the ads and all this stuff, like, it just kept the lights on. Um, we, we could, we had a lot of like, single family, like, we're just, the, the advertising is so expensive that we're, and we are still dialing in our pricing and such.
The first time you, you know, when you're getting a, a new lead off of Facebook and you land 'em and you, and it's just like, it's enough to kinda keep the lights on, but not, you're not really making money. Mm-hmm. Um, at least not the first time you, you service 'em. Like the next time after that, you service 'em, it starts to get better or it does get better and it gets better over time.
But, um, but yeah, just having like different Hmm. Yeah. Networking and community outreach, getting involved in different, just different events, things like that through Yeah. Your lo local network. Um, prospecting, like all the real estate agents. How I started really was just calling all my real estate agent friends and being like, Hey, do you have any listings coming up that you need cleaned?
Yeah. And they're like, yeah, no, I do. And so, um, that started going, it was, so, it's just all, all these different angles is what I'm getting at that I didn't say no to anything. I mean, we do Thumbtack, we do like, um, Yelp, we do like all these different things that can get us in front of people. 'cause the most important thing is that you need to be in front of people.
I mean, we wrapped the trucks, we did like all that stuff, and. So there's not, what I'm getting at is there's not any one thing that is gonna get you, like that kind of growth. It's like just spend work from 6:00 AM to midnight every day on trying to make sure that you get in front of as many people as possible.
Right. And that's great advice. Mm-hmm. And then from there, it's follow up. Follow up, follow up. It's, make sure you're in front of people. I mean, like, I'll admit, there's times where I dropped the ball. I could have been in front of people more and could have followed up better. And that comes from like realizing that I am trying to do this and then going in, having to go fix, you know, uh, I have to go clean windows at a house 'cause they weren't done right.
Or the, or my tech didn't show up at all. Right. Or I had like, I don't know how you have five people in the field and somehow none of them show up. On a day
it happens. Like, I, I mean, it does, it happens, it blows my mind. Like I didn't miss, I, I think I missed, like, actually, I don't think me and my business partner missed a day that we didn't, that we were like, you know, unless we, we like purposely took it off. We didn't miss a day last year and somehow we have all these guys that just don't show up and having that bad, it was just a bad culture and like, just a lot of things or are problems.
But like, going back to my sales process Yeah. Was literally, it was just, was any kind of outreach I could, any kind of inbound, lead, outbound, anything, calling, emailing, following up, getting them a bid, get it, uh, following up on the bid and just, just keep going after 'em. And the crazy thing is that. You get like all this business is so random in that you have, with like the bidding process and like the prices where you get, it's really easy to get discouraged where you're saying like you, you're bidding house clean, uh, window cleaning or roof wash, whatever you're doing.
And they're like, you'll get, that's a great price. I will take it to, that's five times what somebody else was charging me. And you're like, go with them. Yeah. And you just have to be, and, and understanding your numbers that I did not, I didn't fully get right. And there's a lot of unknown unknowns that are, that make starting a business difficult.
And then when you scale it that quick, you end up like making a lot of mistakes. And now it's like, I look back and I'm like, oh, okay, that's, uh, this is the mistake I made and this is why I can't do it that way. And these like, discounts were like too big and these like, you know, like these things, like the, or just this price in general wasn't enough.
So now I need to like adjust that. And so, and we're constantly like tweaking little things and it's, to me, it's fun. Mm-hmm. Uh, I love this business and like, little secret with everybody. Like I haven't really taken much of a paycheck at all in this time because I know that, like, for one, I'm fortunate, I'm financially set up well enough to do it.
But I also know that it's like, it's really hard to scale quickly when it scaled quickly. I made no money. Mm-hmm. And because you're, you're making a lot of mistakes. Well, that, and you're investing, right? You're investing continually into the company, right? Yep. Yep. People, people, a lot of people don't realize that sometimes as the business owner, we are the last one to be paid.
Um, and it really should be the other way around, but that's life, right? Um, and we do whatever we have to do. But, um, it's, uh, so before I wanna, I wanna talk about the mistakes because with the rapid scale that you've gone into, and you've mentioned several already, and I would like to dive in to a couple of those, but I kind of wanna go backwards a little bit.
And you're talking about being in front of people. Um, me checking out your social media, um, on your Facebook best exterior cleaning, and then your LinkedIn page, you've got some awesome digital content. Um, how did you, did you hire somebody to do that or are you the digital creator? Because there's a i there's a really, there's, there's really good quality to your video in a number of different ways, and I was telling you before we came on the show, but I'd like to share with the listeners.
I don't know if they'll pick up on the same thing as I, but there's, there's kind of like a, you know, a lot of exterior cleaning companies do a lot of different, like we all have our different style, but to me, Brad, your style is, it's, it's extremely authentic. It's very. Kind of like calming and nurturing and feel super comfortable.
And like me as the viewer, it makes me feel like, oh wow, what a, just like, so easy if I call these people, like, it would be so easy to do business with them. But this, like, this kind of like feeling that comes through in your video. But tell me about your video creation, because video's huge and you've definitely done it extremely well.
Well, thanks. I, um, I feel the opposite. I feel like I'm just doing my best to try and figure it out and I don't know. Um, I think that you naturally end up coming out with, uh, like a style. Um, uh, to answer your, your question that, uh, I've hired some different people over the years, uh, over the, this like year and a half of doing video, um, are my.
By salesman slash like marketing, a person I hired, uh, at the end of last year, he's now helping me with like, he has a video background. So the problem is we're just so busy all the time. It's like trying to get these videos put together. Yeah. And done. But we have like, um, so we're like building more videos.
I create, I typically create the script. The, and uh, you know, to be honest, a lot of it could be, I could do more ahead of time to prepare. Um. Most of my stuff is like one-liner, uh, put toge, a bunch of one-liners kind of put together, or I'll voiceover as well. So like I'll record something and I'll say like one line, and then I'll shoot something else, and then I'll record and I'll say another one line and like I just kinda chop it up.
And then the way it's kind of put together, um, I also, because I am like, I do come across as a little more like, like I can come across as too calm where it's like boring. So I have to like, and then camera, like a boring person seems even more boring. And so you have to like amp up yourself. And so these videos are like me as like try and be animated.
Right? Um, one, I've done video for the last like 15 years, so you definitely were doing video and real estate and. I was also used to, the thing I left out is I used to compete in drifting. Okay. And so, I don't know if you know what that is, but it's like car racing. Okay. Um, and so I had videos with that and so, um, that tra that taught me a lot about like your energy level because it's really hard to sound excited when you're losing or when you completely blow up a $10,000 motor and you are not happy and you are trying to like, not seem boring on camera.
Right. And so that is tough, but when you're winning, it's really easy to be excited about it. Mm-hmm. So, and it's really easy to have good content when you're like, yeah, but this is blah, blah. You, like, they get you. Right. You got a card and you're just like jacked 'cause you're excited. So, so we're talking a little bit about the acting element.
Yeah. So the acting element is definitely one of those like. And, and I found that I essentially have to have somebody do the recording and editing because I'm too ultra critical about myself. Hmm. And I will take forever trying to get, and I'll just never do it. Like, I'll, I'll keep recording and keep recording, set up a tripod, do all this stuff, and I'll just never do it.
'cause I'll just be like, I didn't think that was great. That was terrible. That was terrible. Oh, I, I forgot that word. I, blah, blah, blah. Versus like, I'm, I'm so the opposite. I'll just do it. And I'm like, it's great. Put it out there. I, I am so jealous of that. And, and the thing I do too is that there's like, somewhere, there's a ton of like, like stuff that was never used that I'm just being like, super goofy.
Um, I like to just get like, like just be goofy and, and, and do like funny things and say funny things. And it gets me kind of like in this like fun, happy mood to do videos, but I can't, it's hard to do it by myself. 'cause I have this like weird, uh, I don't know, maybe it's the class clown from being like the kid that always got in trouble in school.
But like, I will like the person that's recording, I will just like mess around and I like, and you like, make 'em laugh and it's fun and then it like, and then we go into like recording the stuff and it's a good time. Yeah. And so it's hard for me to shoot footage by myself. You know, the thing for someone like me, which I know most of the people looking at your video content, are not gonna be the Sheila Smeltzers of the world that come from deep industry background, that are trained in safety, that are looking for professional skills and tactics being used.
But I see that in your videos. I see, um, I see skill craft, I see safety, um, like, like professional image, like all those things. Those are the things that I am like really loved about your video content because that puts an image out to the world that we are professionals in exterior cleaning, right? Like, this is an industry and that's what I care about.
Um, so anyway, I just wanna give you kudos for that. And all of our listeners, you know, just seriously go check out Brad's content. I think. You guys will really enjoy it. Um, but let's, let's talk about some of the difficult stuff. Can we Yeah, yeah. I'm an open book. So you have talked about systems, like basically you created chaos because you're a selling machine and you create a chaos because yeah, you can sell the jobs all day long, but then you need the operations to be able to fulfill them.
You need the finance, you need the administrative. Um, and so it sounds like you have the sale, you have the sales and the marketing pretty well intact. That's great. Leads coming in. Um, but now you have to actually fulfill that. And these are the different roles of the company. Um, what, I mean, it sounds like you tackled operations first and you're kind of learning the finance and whatnot along the way.
Am I right by saying that? Yeah. Yeah. We're, um, the thing that we, so we waited till. I didn't really wait. I think we had to wait, I guess, till things slowed down enough to be able to put the effort that it needed. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the, the thing that we are really concentrating on, right, uh, like I'm at the tail end of is our hiring process, firing, uh, training, um, doing different ma giving people a roadmap that when they get hired on, they can see how they can make more money.
Yep. Just trying to put these like really important steps in that bring on a good quality person that will, you know, guaranteed we're gonna hire people that just don't, they're they're, they're just, they don't, aren't looking for a, um. Career in exterior cleaning. They're just looking for a job for now.
And maybe they have a good attitude. Maybe they, we get, you know, there's, you'll meet. Like I had one guy who was great and he was just between jobs, he was tech sales and he did, and he just cleaned and he just was looking for a job for now and he was solid. And that was like my first hire and he was amazing.
Um, he now is back into sec tech sales and he is happy doing that. But, uh, but what I wanted to do was find those people, uh, like build this for those people that maybe are. Like how I was, where I just didn't have a path. I came outta high school. I barely graduated high school. I like didn't really have a path, I didn't know what to do.
Mm. And granted, I think I'm more resourceful than some, but like the people that are just doing their best to be like, all right, I just, I need a job and I, I want something that has some kind of a future, right? I don't wanna go work at like some fast food joint and be there forever. Like, I wanna do something where there's a future and we can have a good time.
And so the goal is to have to where, and I'm, I'm not quite to the full build out, but the goal is to show somebody how they can go from like an entry level person to being the operator of this business. Mm-hmm. Because ultimately I don't want to be the operator of the business. And so yeah, creating, creating careers and uh, um, that kind of, that turnkey operation and yeah, you're right, it takes a playbook and it takes systems so that no matter who's doing the thing, they know how to do it.
And that definitely relieves you and your responsibilities as the owner. Um, so like you're hiring, 'cause like what I'm hearing is that you're, you, you're trying to create career pathways for people in your community and you sounds like you're focusing, like you're employee kind of avatar is peop like people coming outta high school and, or like maybe in the middle of college and like, uh, what am I doing?
Yeah. Are those, is that kind of who you're trying to attract as tech? Yeah, for sure. Okay. That's, that's definitely who I'm trying to attract. Or just somebody that hasn't. Maybe they're, they've tried a bunch of different things and just their, their career path hasn't landed yet. So how are you enticing them?
Oh, like, uh, so like, our pay structure, we're, we're now doing a percentage based pay and we're, um, for, if you're a trained, um, like an actual, like trained employee, um, well I call 'em team members 'cause I think that's a better way to put it. Yep. Uh, but, uh, we are doing a four level system. Uh, your first, your, uh, when you first hire on, you're an entry level or el um, and you get, you get a hourly pay only.
You have very strict, like, these are the things that you need to do. We give you an evaluation on the first day, um, from the person that is working with you. And then you do, uh, and then you as the. The new hire, you do like your own evaluation and then the next day that the, your manager and you will talk about it and just kind of go over the details and make sure that there's no disconnect on, like somebody thinks they're doing really well and somebody's not doing well or whatever.
So they're on the same page. And so then they have two weeks in that and then they, we do an evaluation at the end of the two weeks and then they, same kind of thing, but they, we need to see progression and a good attitude, consistency, showing up, those kind of things. And then they can move to a level one.
And I thought it was really important to go into like showing a. A win and a progression. Mm-hmm. Within the first like, couple weeks, because that show, like, people will build on momentum and you're like, oh, I went from, you know, this much an hour to this much an hour. Awesome. I'm making, I'm now gonna make more money and I have something to work for.
And then go from level one. You still don't get, uh, it's still only hourly. Yep. You're, you're on still a tight leash of what you are allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do, and how you're and what's expected of you. Yep. And then you start learning how to build, like how to build the skills to what we need.
And we have a list of these different skills and these trainings and you go, you start going through 'em and you start learning. And then from there you can become a level two. Which a level two is somebody that can pass the basic skills test for all our services and then we're able, and then they're able to, um.
Essentially be able to be left on a job, do the work, and somebody will go through our production manager, who is for now my business partner, will go through and double check the work. And typically these are commercial jobs. Uh, and so, or they'll work with somebody that's above them who is a, like, essentially a journeyman, which is a level three.
And then they will go through and just double check the person's work. And that person will get a percentage of pay. A level two, level three will get a, a bigger percentage. And so they'll be able to, um, kind of have this figured out and they can go through the steps. And then the next one obviously is production manager.
And, and so then we'll ultimately have a production manager. But what we're working on is getting the field tech part really dialed in. Mm-hmm. Then. My business partner's, the, uh, production manager for now until we can kind of really cement what that job really means and how it all works. And then, um, I am essentially acting as the office manager, uh, to do that.
I also leverage, um. Virtual assistants. And so we use virtual assistants for certain things like our scheduling, which is pretty wild, that somebody can be really good at scheduling in a country that they've never been Right. And doing services they've never performed, but it's working. Mm-hmm. And so we're like trying to leverage these different things to make it all kind of come together.
And as we build ourselves out of, uh, as we build every position, we can kind of work our way. So like, my goal is in 2027 to have a production manager Okay. And then in, and then see how that goes. And it still might be in 2027, we end up with an office manager. But really we need to stabilize the company and get, uh, and have profit.
Because what people don't talk about is like, when you grow that fast, there's no profit in it. Like, it's all just like, you know, it is not even just the wraps and the like. Equipment. It's, it's the mistakes that I've made that have cost us probably, you know, yeah. 50,000, a hundred thousand dollars or more.
Yeah. I have some questions for you. Um, first I wanna go back to your tech level system, and I'm, uh, I'm working on something very similar in my company. I mean, honestly, it's pretty much identical. My question is, do, do your tech levels, do they involve, uh, do, is there a differentiator on height work?
Meaning if you're a level one, you're on the ground. If you're level two, you can do up to 24. If you're up to, if you're a level three, you can do up to 40 foot ladder work, like, or do you have anything like that built in? No, because. Um, I know it gets tricky 'cause it's not ideal, but it's, I I, I do wanna share a little, a little hint of gold.
Okay. If you, in your payroll system, if you can identify your technicians in a level one, two, or three, and if your level one you are, their job description is to stay on the ground. Okay? Then whenever you get audited for work comp, you can run those reports and you're gonna pay a heck of a lot less for those people that are training and on the ground as a rate per 100 of their payroll.
So I just, this, this comes up a lot. I have a lot of, um, guys that are new in the industry. I just got a message from a competitor the other day saying like, Hey Sheila, can I talk to you about workman's comp? I'm going through like one of my first audits and um, so there's some really creative ways that we can, uh, work around that, but just, I'm just kind of throwing that out there.
I would, I would consider that maybe, maybe I should do that, at least at minimum with, uh, entry level. Because in the first two weeks they, like, they could probably just be on the ground. The hard part though, and that's, that's not gonna save you that much. But if you do, you do a lot of interior window cleaning.
To be honest, we're trying to get away from window cleaning altogether. Oh, you are? Okay. Well, yeah, we do. Our big thing is roof cleaning. Okay. Yes. And that's where it's like, hard to say like a level one. And the issue that we have too is that you could, you could have somebody that's like, oh, I could be up on a roof, no problem.
And then you get 'em up there and they're shaken like a leaf. Right. So we'd rather get them up there, like a little taste of it. Yep. And just see how it is. And then we're not like investing a bunch in somebody and then they're turning around and saying like, oh, I don't. I can't, I can't handle being up on roof.
And you're like, well that's like last year 50% of our, our work was roof cleaning. So like you're absolutely right when you're bringing people on to be able to get them a skills assessment of some sort that is going to get them into similar scenarios of what they're gonna be doing on the job. Because if you can nix that out right off the bat, you're gonna save yourself so much time and money with that person.
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So like, I like the idea of saving money with l and i, I just don't think that like, because so much of us is roof cleaning, it's like, yeah. I, I just don't see it being, and we're actually rebranding, this is a thing that I learned too, um, is that like we're best exterior cleaning, even though like.
It actually works really well for the commercial side because people will think of like exterior cleaning as a commercial thing. Like that's a name or like that's something you would say, but like home house cleaning is not like that. Like people don't think of like, oh I need an exterior cleaner.
They're like, I need my roof cleaned, I need my windows, I need gutters. I need that. But I named it 'cause I didn't wanna pigeonhole myself into a certain thing. 'cause if I would've said like best window cleaning and then I was, now I'd be like, I don't want to do window cleaning. Yeah. It's the least profitable thing for us.
And like it only accounted for one sixth of our or less of our business last year. And I'm okay with that. And I we're actually actively like. We're actively pursuing everything else, and we're just like, if people want windows, we'll talk about it, but we're like trying to not do it. Um, you can't buy a bigger, a big enough squeegee to make the windows go that much faster.
Yep. So it's, we're more like roof cleaning, pressure washing, and that's, we're where we are. So, um, yeah, definitely have your tickets. You're smart. I mean, we're doing the same thing. Um, I was talking to an employee yesterday in a one-on-one, a technician and I mean, we were talking about this very same thing.
He is like, you know, we just, we make so much more money doing the roof cleanings and the house washing and you know, all the commercial stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I know. But we are like a plus. Pro services is number one in the market in any SEO search, in any way you look at it. That is the service that brings people in the door to our company.
I'm like, sorry, it's never going away. Unfortunately, we're the best at it, and it's just not going away. But if it gets people in the door and you know, hey, that's okay, because if we can do the other, um, high margin services, then that really helps us be holistically offer, like offering holistically to our clients.
And so anyway, I just, it's you're, what you're saying is absolutely correct. So remind me where you're located. I'm in, I'm in southeastern, North Carolina. Okay. Yeah. Nice. So Brad, um. Uh, hiring. We, we, we are only touching on some of the, I could go for hours. I know you're like, 30 minutes and then we're gonna start writing this down.
And I was like, yeah. Okay. We should stay on like one topic because I can talk for hours about this. I love this business. Me too. Me too. I'm the same. Um, so I think what, like, it's, so with your hiring and then now, so where are you at right now? So we're coming into spring season and you grew up real fast and then you had to, you had to kind of slow down a bit, implement some systems.
You've done a lot of implementing, of training, hiring and all, and all of that. So that's all your employee stuff and building your team, your operations. So what does the spring 2026 look like for you? Oh, it is getting off to a slow start. 'cause we were focusing so much on the systems building and those things.
Yep. Um, but we say that our, our year is from um, it's essentially like march to end of Feb or like the end of February. Because what happens is that, 'cause we do multifamily, um, a lot of, uh, roof cleaning and gutter cleaning all the way up until it starts generally starts freezing out in February. Okay. So like, we had weird year this year, but we had snow last week, which was, normally we have like two or three snow days and a bunch of freezing in the middle of February, and then so all the work stops and so we generally try and wrap up all our work.
By then, um, this is, a lot of this is based upon historical stuff from my business partner and what, and then it, it mirrored pretty well, uh, last year, uh, this last year. And so we, uh, we generally take like a month break where it just stops. And then, so now like we say like, oh, we're starting our year. Like this is the beginning of our year.
We have one tech in the field right now. My business partner fills in when we ha where we have to. Mm-hmm. And we're just kind of getting going. Okay. And so our spring is the beginning of our year. We have, I don't know, the, so far this year we've probably done, like,
we've probably done like, uh, half a million dollars in bids so far for commercial. We're getting like crazy big, uh, opportunities. Like, it's, it's pretty wild. 'cause the more you just. This is where like we've also talked about like not wanting to do residential. Mm-hmm. Uh, or just doing it in like such a low capacity that it can cover our bills, our base bills.
'cause it's cash flow constantly. Mm-hmm. And then really just focusing on the commercial side of it, because it's all about filling capacity, right? That's one learn learning lesson is that it's all about, like if you have a person, uh, out there, you need to make sure their full capacity is full fill. And so it's a lot easier to do that with commercial jobs because you have such a large bucket of hours that you can just distribute among people and, but you need this volume and then cash flow is really slow.
So, um, what my spring looks like is, um, just trying to keep that one, one residential person running. Mm-hmm. And we, uh, and then. We're hiring some, um, entry level people and we're getting these commercial stuff starting to get accepted. And we also have some reoccurring, some ones from last year that are gonna need to be done.
And so we're starting to see that ball start to roll, um, by April. Um, we should be, we should have April decently full and we should just be able to keep rolling. Uh, and yeah, that's what, that's what it looks like. You said 2027, you're gonna have a production manager. How many techs are you envisioning for you to validate a production manager or what kind of revenue?
So we're, so our goal for this year is a million dollars. Okay. And. And we, and had gone through and looked at our, uh, we did like a projected p and l and trying to figure out like where, where we, and looking at our last, uh, p and l looking at like where we lost money and where we can kind of pick up, um, like make it better.
Mm-hmm. And so the, the goal in really like having, having
two, so like doing that, we should be able to, we should be able to do it with like three, three techs and one of those, and, and like an entry level, like a, like a beginning person. Mm-hmm. But what's probably gonna happen is we're probably gonna have like multiple, uh, beginning, uh, like new people. Uh, we fired everybody but one person at the end of the year because they started to have like, we, we had a mess.
And we had people that were breaking stuff without saying or not saying anything. We had people that were doing really terrible jobs and just not showing up. And so we just had this big mess. So we have one tech right now, and we're just going to, we're gonna hire on some new people and my business partner is gonna be in the field more training.
And then we're just gonna try and organically grow this up. So really we having three the million dollars with three techs is about like, right. Um, for what we're looking at for, for our commercial work. And so we should, we should be able to do that. Um, we'll see about. How that really pans out. 'cause the question is, there's a lot of unknowns.
Um, we were overstaffed last year at certain times, and we could have, uh, spread out some work a little better and had less. And that's a good learning lesson as it sometimes you like see these like giant jobs come and you're, you're like, oh my God. We had like a $50,000 roof cleaning job in June, and so we had three techs and we got it done really quickly, but then it was really difficult to keep those three, those guys working.
Mm-hmm. Because when you're, when you can tackle 40 hours of work in one day, it's, it's hard to feed that machine when you're brand new and you have nothing reoccurring. Right. It's like all new, other than we had like certain communities that would need to get done like a couple times a year, but we had like, no, nothing reoccurring.
So we're just like scrambling every day to try and make sure you're, we're getting 'em, uh. Yeah, you just, does that answer your question? Yeah. You just, you just solved, I think one of your own little puzzle pieces about, about how to maintain it all with the recurring revenue. And I'm just wondering, um, your, your business partner, if he's kind of like the owner operator type, um, would he be your production manager?
Yeah, so he's gonna be the production manager for now. Mm-hmm. Um, the issue that we have, and maybe he might be a production manager for longer term than what we're thinking. Mm-hmm. Um, but the goal is to keep growing. And, um, the issue that, and, and I think this is where we don't fully know yet, is that 'cause he's never run a business with like really good systems.
It's always been like him out with a couple guys or whatever, and he just kind of like runs it Uhhuh. Um, and so this is the question, is he a manager? Yeah, he's a, he's a good manager. Okay. Uh, it's just a matter of like, under, he's, he's great with coaching people and training people. Okay. The problem that we had is just the organization of the training.
Mm. He's like, not having the system, not having the system of like, it's funny 'cause like we were talking about this the other day. It was like, well, how do we train somebody? Like, he's like, well, normally I would go up and I would get them on the roof and we would clean and I would show 'em kind of how we're doing it and I would kind of work 'em into it.
And I'm like, okay, well where's our problems we've been having? And it's like, our problems have actually been having the ground cleanup where, you know, getting, making sure around the house, excuse me, around the house and everything looks good. It's like, well, why wouldn't you start with a person? Like have them be on the ground cleaning and making and understanding that part and you do the technical part and then you work them into, up to doing the technical part.
And it's like kind of changing some of those like mindset around training and working through it. And maybe that isn't the right way to go, but it's like, what we are doing wasn't working. So how do we do it to where it will work? We can, we can walk, we can stair step somebody into it. And that kind of came down to that like, what if we do levels and what if we train in a certain way that makes it so they, they care more?
And that's also a, one of the biggest things to kind of wrap your head around is how do you get somebody to care? Hmm. Yeah. It's really hard to inject your passion into people. Um. That that is, that is very tricky. Um, go, going back to the training part, um, I'm gonna have somebody on this podcast who 'cause training is, training is probably, in my opinion, training is the most difficult part.
About having a company like we do. Um, and I'm sure training is difficult across the board, um, with all different types of businesses and a lot of people don't do it. Right. Um, there's a, a woman that I know, her name's Amanda Powell, and she does mid management training. She comes into companies of all sizes and she trains you how to train.
I can tell you that there's really four components of it, and I'm gonna bring her on because this would be a great show. But you know, there's the what, what are we training the purpose behind it and all of that. Then there's the how. So you gotta teach and show how to do it, right? Then there's the assessment.
So now you're as assessing and you're grading and you're giving them a score. There's, right, and then the final part that she says that everybody gets wrong is that feedback loop. And the feedback loop is coming from the person that is being trained back to the trainer to say, this is how I learned better, or I would've learned this better.
Doing that, or ba ba. And that feedback loop, root loop is really the most crucial part of the whole thing. So you know it like that. That's the framework right there. So, um, then it's like how, right? There's LMS systems and you know, like you can, like, you, you have to be able to have it in a way that anybody, if you have a production manager, shop manager or an operations manager, whatever, that anybody coming into the company, it's like, all right, here we go.
This is how we hire, this is how we onboard, this is orientation. This is the training. Okay, great. Now they're becoming a level one tech and building all that out. Are you doing that on any type of a platform or what are you building it out on? So we got all the written down, um, in Google Sheets, like all the structure.
Um, that's where we're like starting off of, uh, my, one of my next things is like trying to, is find a, a system that we can, they can go through all the modules and stuff. If you have a recommendation, that'd be great. Mm-hmm. Is like to going through the modules and we're gonna be doing video. Um, so like having a lot of it as video.
Yep. Um, and then I, I totally agree with the feedback loop thing and like all of our assessments and everything also have a, the other side of it, it has the, the, the employee side where they fill out details of like, about their perspective on it and how they, how they, like, what they think of it, if they, what they think of their performance, what they think of the company, what, you know.
So the idea is to get alignment throughout it. Yeah. So you understand like from the get go, like your very first day, I want that person to fill out, like, hey, yeah, this is what I thought. And also it. It's going to be expected that they fill it out properly. Mm-hmm. And this is where you start to weed out some of these people.
I was telling, I was actually talking to my bookkeeper the other day about it, and I'm like, I'm essentially building a filter. There you go. Like this stuff that this, this hiring and this onboarding, this training as a filter. I was an iron worker, I was a Union iron worker. I went through a four year apprenticeship and I, and every, and you look back at it, you're like, God, every part of it was a filter.
It was like, show up no matter what, do the, you know, like fill, do the test, do the training, do these things, do this to the level they want. If you don't do it, you can just leave. We don't need you. It was like that was a heavy handed filter. Like it was like, and there was people that like, I couldn't believe it.
I'm like, there's people that are broke that are just struggling and they drop out and I'm like, I am not good at school. I'm not good at, but I show up and I give it my best. Mm-hmm. And that's really all they cared about. And that's really all we care about too. Like, I don't care if you can, if you can't even read the stuff, I mean like, that will be a little rough, but like, if you have a hard time with it, like we can help you.
Like, I want people that show up that have a good attitude that I can trust, I can rely on. Like, I don't need, I don't need you to be a college graduate. Like it does, that stuff doesn't even matter to me. And so it's uh, definitely that alignment and that feedback loop of, and understanding from their perspective.
I think that I. Business. One of the thing that can make you successful, and especially selling, is being able to step out of your own perspective and into somebody else's perspective. Sure. And that's, that's what's gonna get you the sales. It's not gonna be like you having like tons of people clean stuff or can put a roof on a house or whatever.
Mm-hmm. But when you can really step back and think about what their perspective is mm-hmm. And how you can, how you can think from, from their side of the table. Mm-hmm. Then it's like, okay, well what do we, uh, like this is how we can make it work. Right. So, yeah. I lo I love that. Um, also, just back to the question about how do you make employees care?
I think really a lot of what you and I talked about with the feedback and whatnot, I think that's part of it. Right When you engage our, when we engage our people in the process and we want to know their thoughts and you know, like asking them if, if you or me doing this training, what would you do different?
And, you know, getting them engaged. I think that really does that, that's one of the pieces to be able to get that care from them. So yeah. Really good conversation, Brad. Um, we could, we could talk for a long time. Oh, I could keep going. Definitely. I, yeah, I have like a whole theory on how to, how to, like, we, so like me, and last thing really quick, I know we're getting an hour, but like, me and my business partner sat down one day and we're like, if best six year cleaning was a game, a video game, whatever it was, what would need to, what would it need to make it successful?
What would you need to win? And it's like, and this is from the employee's per perspective. Yeah. And if you think about it that way of like most jobs, if it was a video game, it would be the most confusing, boring video game you've ever played in your life. You'd have no clue how to win. You have no clue how to do any of this.
You would just, you would just get in there and you would just start walking around and trying to figure it out. Yeah. Um, but if you, um, but if you have clear rules and expectations that you can do, you can get there and you can get, like, you can win and you feel good about it at every level. And, and if you don't, you, it's game over.
And so that's the way we try and focus on it is like, where do you, where can you gamify this but also make it extremely simple? And that's been the biggest thing mm-hmm. Is making it simple. 'cause it's so easy to over complicate this to be like, I don't know, like, I want to put all these little, you put all these little trap doors and all these different things.
Then before you know it, you're like, I, I don't know how an employee's gonna know this because I don't even know what's going on. Right. So anyways, um, I, I love, I love how simplicity on this podcast, I swear simplicity comes up almost every time. And ironically, and I ironically it is the first of the five leadership abilities.
If you can create simplicity that is a high quality, uh, as a leader and for the reason that you just said. Right. And I love your idea about gamifying and thinking about, ha that is a very good perspective on. Really putting yourself in because you were talking about sales and putting yourself in the buyer's mind and in their perspective.
But we also, you were saying putting yourself in your employee's perspective, and that's gold, because if we can do that, we can create that experience as business owners, we can create whatever we want. Right? Every day you're selling your employees every day. Every day you're selling them on showing up and working hard for you.
And they want, and there's certain things that they want, especially this like younger generation where they want to feel heard and they wanna feel like they're contributing and they wanna feel like they have control. Yep. Having, um, having that built into your business, it is what's going to get, keep them sold every day and keep them showing up and keep them making it happen for you because you'll never.
He, like, you can't do it without him. Right. I can't, I can't, like I randomly go and do jobs and I can barely get out of bed the next day. So like I and I, I do go to the gym. I've been getting better at it. Yeah. I've been getting in better shape, but like, I can't physically do this work. I can sell it and I can build this business, but I can't do the work physically.
Mm-hmm. I know, I know. Just enough. And so, and that's the way I want to keep it. Yeah. And so, uh, so yeah, so definitely trying to make it so people feel like they have, you know, they feel like they have a purpose in selling them essentially every day, but, you know Yeah. In a way that you're, the people feel like that they're get selling themselves.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. Well, I, I can't wait to see you at the next Mastermind and kind of keep checking in. I'm gonna. I am gonna hold you to this goal of, uh, first of all, a million dollars this year and also your 2027, um, having a production manager next. Yeah, I, the, the idea about that is having a built out production manager, like the job, and then deciding, um, kind of where we want to go from there with like, um, you're right, like my business partner could just, he is more of a, like a hands-on want to be in it.
And so like, if he wants to be the production manager, but there, there are bigger things that he could do. And we have like, we need to build out a bit, a better bidding process for, um, for commercial stuff where we can train other people to do it and not just have him do it. Yeah. Uh, and so there's certain things that like, I think it would be really helpful to have a production manager, but, um, other than him.
But yeah, I mean it's, it's all learning experience and it's all like, we'll see where when we, yeah. If I were to, when we get there, if I were to build out the most simple job description, job description for a production manager, it'd be like three responsibilities. It would be, theyd have to be a rule follower.
They now have to, they have to be able to follow a system and actually be able to create a system. So they have to have that, they have to be able to hold people accountable 100%. And they have to be problem solvers. Yeah. Those three things. And you're gonna have a kick ass production manager. Yeah. Yeah.
And, and having, and from there, it's like, what, what we're talking about, like building it out is like just giving them the right tools and having things written out that they can help, help facilitate some of those things. Yeah. And, and having him live it. Of like, this is what needs to happen. Yep. Um, so yeah.
I agree. Cool. Well, um, all right, well we'll see you at the next mastermind. Oh yeah, go ahead. You wanted one more thing? I know you told me this and we'll try and wrap it up at the end of the hour, is that, um, the huge mastermind's been done really great for me. Okay. With, um, understanding, um, some of these processes and, and networking with some people that really like getting me in the room with people that are doing, are, are actively working at a level I want to be at.
Yeah. Whether they're one step ahead of me, whether they're, you know, whether they're a hundred thousand dollars ahead of me or millions ahead of me. Or tens of millions ahead of me. Like it's really put me in a room with these people that, that get it. And they are, everybody's working towards a common goal and I think it's really important to just really invest in yourself and also invest in getting in the room with people that are where you want to be.
Yes. Um, uh, likewise, the, the huge for me is like we are a community of entrepreneurs and it, there's really a Go-Giver mentality in it where we are here to help each other out. And the really, that's, that's what I love and that's why we're here on the podcast so that we can share experiences. Um, I love that we have a lot of new kind of budding entrepreneurs in the industry that are on the podcast because.
There's a lot of 'em out there and they need help. And anything that you shared today, Brad, I promise, is gonna help somebody, um, avoid a pitfall and mistake. Um, you know, that could save 'em thousands of dollars and a lot of time. Um, and also I think there's a common thread of listening to your story and saying, yeah, I made that mistake too.
Like, okay, it's not just me. Right? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, we we're definitely all here to help each other out and um, that's really what the huge community is all about. And um, and like business is business. No matter if you're at a billion or if you're at a hundred thousand, really the principals are the same.
And, um, a lot of us didn't go to school for this. We don't have MBAs. We, you know, we are learning as we go. And so to be able to learn from other people's mistakes is huge. Yeah. My wife actually went to Duke for her MBA. Nice. And she works at Amazon and she could not stomach. The life that I live, the entrepreneur life.
Yeah. So, um, I would say that most people that go to MBA don't, they, they can't, they don't do it. Right. They, they do it for somebody else. They do it for somebody else. So heard. Yep. Cool. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Thank you, Brad. Yeah. I look forward to seeing you again. We'll continue our conversation and, um, yeah, best of luck to you in 2026.
Thanks. All right. Have a great day. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's it. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the used Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Fred and Christine Hodge of Clearview Washing, an exterior cleaning company in New Jersey that Fred started with his dad at 19 and that the couple later transformed into a fast-growing, systems-driven business. Fred shares how the company began with window cleaning and gradually expanded into gutters, power washing, and more, while Christine explains how joining the business brought a major shift toward structure, accountability, and scalable growth.
 
Fred and Christine break down the biggest changes that helped them grow: moving from paper-based operations to software and systems, building a stronger hiring process, creating clear roles, and treating team members like career employees instead of temporary labor. They also talk candidly about working together as spouses, the boundaries they had to create between business and home life, and how building culture, confidence, and leadership within their team has become a core part of the company’s success. Finally, they share what it takes to move from one growth stage to the next, including why their path to $5 million now depends less on hustle in the field and more on elite sales talent, operational leadership, and continued investment in people.
 
Resources:
Clearview Washing
The Process CEO (Christine Hodge)
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook Group
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hey, it's Sid at the Huge Transformations podcast, and I'm really delighted you are here. It feels like it's been a whirlwind since the last time we recorded an episode, and it's like this. I just got back from six days in Mexico for a nice reset with my wife before we get started with a busy, busy cleaning season in our business here in Montana.
And before that I was in Nashville for three and a half days for our mastermind. The huge Mastermind. And that's where we get, we get 40, 50, sometimes. We have 60 people get together in one room. These are all sharp, growth-minded business owners that really want to accelerate their business. They want to 10 x their business in the next three to five years, and we spend.
Intense time together, working on process, working on a tool, working on a way to maximize their business. And this one was no different. It was probably the most in-depth process orchestration we've done on new product development, on, on role creation to help people advance and accelerate their business.
And I'm, I usually don't bring this up, but I wanted to bring it up because maybe you as a listener, maybe you've got a business with, you know, five or more employees and you're over half a million, maybe over 700,000 in revenue, and you want to get to a million, you want to get to 5 million, but you feel like you're plateaued.
If that's you, you gotta check out the Mastermind and just see if it's a right fit for you. 'cause it's designed. For people in that range. They're, they've got five or more employees, they're over 700,000 in revenue, and they want to get to 2 million, 5 million. We really want to grow a business that will grow and operate without you.
That's what the huge Mastermind is for. So check it out@thehugemastermind.com. That link will be in the show notes. Didn't mean for that to sound like a, a promotion or advertisement, but it's, it's so valuable for people that are in that situation that feel like they've plateaued, that have kind of outgrown their capabilities, but they know they've got a lot more potential left.
They just need to help. They need to find someone to help unleash that potential. So that's what the mastermind's for. But here's one thing that we decided to do last week as the, uh, the mastermind sort of leadership group. We publish. We published a book strictly for our mastermind members, um, little less than a year ago called the $10,000 Ideals book and the 10 K idea Book m.
What that is, is that, you know, at a lot of our quarterly masterminds, we will have our members stand up and contribute and tell us what is your 10 K idea. The framework for the 10 K ideas has gotta be something that you have that's strategic or practically, um, tactical that they have, have actually done in their business in the past six months that has generated over $10,000 in fresh revenue in a 30 to 90 day period.
So we just compiled 14 of these ideas and put 'em in a book that we could give to new mastermind members to help them jumpstart their membership in the Mastermind. What's really cool about that is each one of these ideas is worth over $10,000. Last year at the huge convention when, um, uh, before I introduced one of the speakers, I showed that book and I just turned to a page and opened it, and there was one particular.
Tactic that was in there that I read and I'm like, guys, I'm gonna go home and do this in my business. It's a tactic we had never applied before. This was the end of August, right in the slow, the doldrums of summer. And I went home, gave it to my leadership team, my office manager. We sent out four emails to half of our database and one text message, four emails, one text message with this one specific tactic.
And I wanted to prove that we would generate over $10,000 in fresh revenue. We ended up generating $26,400 in new revenue just from that one tactic executed one time. I was like, damnit, this is good. It works. So we decided to make this $10,000 ideal book available to anybody that wants a copy. So if you go to the 10 K book info, let me say that cleaner, 10 K, that's one zero.
In the letter K 10 K book.info, you can get your free copy of the $10,000 idea book. I hope you do, and I hope you utilize it and implement some of the stuff that's in there. A couple day ideas in there that we've executed. You're gonna go, this is too simple. I can't believe it. Like it'll never work. Do it.
It will work. It's already been proven. It's already worked for many, many others. And it'll work for you too. So this is our, my free gift to you. Go to the 10 k book info, get your copy of the 10,000 idea book and add it to your business repertoire and jumpstart your season with extra 10,000, 50,000, a hundred thousand in revenue.
And just, you know, next time you see me at the convention or you know you hear me on the podcast, just gimme a thumbs up and say, thanks man. That was. Awesome. Make sure and get yours. Okay. That's a long lead up to today's show. Today's show, I had no idea how much I was going to enjoy the conversation and interview with our guests, Fred and Christine Hodge, Fred and Christine Hodge.
They own a power wash or an exterior window cleaning company. Clear, clear wash. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Frank. Christine, I messed up the name of your company. They've got a great company in New Jersey, this exterior cleaning. They've been in business for about 20 years and they have gone into a, a strong growth mode in the past five years.
They've more than doubled the size of the company and they become leaders in the industry, teaching other people how to implement systems, implement good hiring, and hire leaders, and retain leaders in their company though. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did and learn as much as I did from Fred and Christine Hodge.
There are guests. Fasten your seatbelt. This was fun and fast paced, and you're gonna want to take notes. Just know that all the notes are in the show notes. Every link, everything we mention in the show notes, check it out. Fred and Christine Hodge. Hey everybody, this is Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, part of the huge, um, the huge convention.
I'm excited today 'cause I've got Fred and Christine Hodge together on the podcast and we get to, I I've, we, we've met at the huge convention. I've had a couple conversations with you guys. I've never had a deep conversation where I go, let me hear the backstory. Let me hear how you get started. And, you know, some of the growing pains along the way.
'cause you guys have grown a, a pretty significant, uh, exterior cleaning company there in New Jersey. And it's Clearview Clearview Washing, right? There's a clear view. Clearview Washing, Clearview Washing. So first of all, Fred, Christine, thank you very much. How are you guys doing? You're in the, the land of ice and cold or how things in Jersey right now?
It's cold, it's snowy. We're dreaming of warmer days, but we're almost there. True, true. Do you always feel like, I mean, it's like the, I I don't know what the, uh, the bias is, the mental bias, but when you, when the sun's shining, you think it's always gonna shine. And when it's cold as hell, you think it'll never be warm again.
And we know that's not true. Yeah. But it sure feels that way. It sure does. It sure does. I mean, today it's like 40 degrees and it feels like summertime because Yeah. I don't feel like I need a jacket. I've been so conditioned to the cold that this feels warm to me right now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great.
Well, that's great. Well, I want, I want to dig into your guys like the origin story of Clearview Washing. And if I understand correctly, Fred. Believe you started as a wild-eyed 19-year-old. You're like, I'm gonna go start a window cleaning company, 19 years old, 2004. And you just started, what, uh, what was your motivation to start a window cleaning company?
Do you have any family members that are business owners or like, why would you do such a crazy thing? So it's, uh, there's a combination of everything going on here. So yes, I do have a family of entrepreneurs, as does Christine. Um, and I started the company with my dad. Um, he didn't start, I didn't start it.
We started it together. Um, I was studying entrepreneurship at Rowan University in Southern New Jersey, and I knew I wanted to become an entrepreneur, but I did not realize I was gonna be getting into the exterior cleaning game. Um, Monday day, on a Saturday, my dad woke me up and he is like, we're going to clean some windows.
I'm like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, uh, he said, we're going to clean some windows. I'm like, what? And he still, he, he says, credit, I give you credit to this day. He is like, most 19 year olds wouldn't have popped out of bed and said, all right, let's go clean some windows. But he had found an experienced window cleaner in Pennsylvania and he had found a job through putting ads in the newspaper.
'cause that's what people did back in, still in 2004. And he found a client locally and he hired this guy from Pennsylvania to come out and he said, listen, I'm gonna give you all the money for the day. I wind up a couple jobs and I just want you to show us the ropes. You get all the money. We don't want anything.
But, uh, so the guy. Drove like about an hour, um, came out this way. Um, we went and did the jobs. I got to learn firsthand what a professional window cleaning was like, how to actually operate a squeegee. The tools, the tips, tricks, the whole nine yards just one day. And, uh, from there we kind of, that was the first job, um, that went smooth with the professional.
It did not go so smooth with the current, the jobs. Uh, that came shortly after that. Um, once the professional was gone, I still remember we had a wooden ladder. I'm like, I don't even know if they, like, do they? I don't think they even make wood. Is that legal? I remember swatting bees away from my head. I'm squeezing it from the outside.
He's telling me he could see streaks. I'm trying to clean it like I was ready to, we were ready to rip each other's throats out. And, uh, at the end of the day, somehow, some way we kept at it and we started to add additional, um, services. We eventually, people started asking, well, can you clean my gutters?
Can you clean? Uh, can you power wash my house? Can you do my walkway? Um, and we kind of evolved since then, but that initial being 19, starting at, my dad had a full-time job in Manhattan. He commuted every morning. He hated it. Um, that's why he was always steering me towards entrepreneurship. Um, he realized that, uh, it, it wasn't, the corporate world wasn't what it used to be, and it was, uh, very cutthroat.
And he instilled in me a lot of values from, um, basically, uh, entrepreneurship. Um, and that's what propelled me to study entrepreneurship at, at Rowan University. And every job, or the few jobs I had in my life before Clearview, um, I always took such pride and also looked at things to improve. He's like, you're the only 17-year-old that would come home from the Italian restaurant saying that like.
You sold the most specials and this is what they're doing wrong. And they, they need to prove on this, this, and this. He's like, he is like, most of 'em are like, I made a hundred bucks. I'm happy. I'm going out with my friends. He's like, you were giving me a, a detailed report on the things that they could do better at the restaurant and to improve customer service to quality of the food, everything.
And he is like, you laid it out there on a regular basis and you're always so competitive. Um, that's very cool. Were you, were you always just kind of hardwired like that you see problems in solutions and opportunities or did, was there some childhood training? Yeah, I think, uh, uh, being surrounded by a lot of my uncles, um, that were entrepreneurs, I kind of saw firsthand.
Um, one of them ran a theater with a restaurant and I saw like how he conducted business, how he went about things. Another one had a production, um, video production, which wasn't really the norm back then. Um, and, uh, he was growing that company and, and there was a bunch more in between. And I saw firsthand like what they were doing in their element and how they led and were looking for things.
And I kind of, I, I loved that. Um, I really, um, was fond of that and I kind of, I wanted to take my own approach and bring my own thing. And me and my dad also found that, like all the other businesses we felt at the time, the ones that were successful, and I don't feel this way anymore, but back then I felt like there was, there were like.
The owners were slimy. And it was like this guy, and I'm not talking exterior cleaning just in general and our, our ways of doing things and I'm like, we kind of both felt like there was a way of doing things the right way and there's a way of doing things, um, uh, and, and showing appreciation and being generous and treating people right where you could still be successful and do it that way.
And we kind of set out to do that. Um, and the reason we fell into exterior cleaning in particular was someone was supposed to go to my parents' house for $400. The guy didn't show up, he didn't call, he didn't anything. And it was like right before I think Thanksgiving and my mom was upset that the, she really wanted to have the windows cleaned before the, all the guests came over in a couple days.
And, uh, we, we saw an opportunity with, uh, being able to just answer the phone, make phone calls, and be, show customer service to, to get it where it's, yeah. Interesting. When, when I first started, um, in Florida, they, I had a, I had a buddy that was in the same church and um, he was really successful, had an advertising agency.
Was killing it. And I said, bill, you know, gimme some tips here. Like what's some advice to be successful in this market? And he said, just show up. Yeah. I'm like, what do you gimme something I can actually use? Like that's dumb. And he is like, I am not kidding. If you show up on time, you're ahead of 95% of the so-called competition.
Like if you don't believe me, call three plumbers and try to get 'em to come over for an estimate. And I was like, oh my gosh, how is the bar so low? Yeah, and it's you, we've been in the industry for a long time. Feel like the bar has gone up quite a bit, but there's still a lot of people that. Don't answer the phone or don't return a call and just don't show up.
What was, um, at some point, I guess Fred, you, you took the business on, on your own. Your dad became not the helper or not the partner or however that worked, but in, in those early days, like what was your, what was your biggest goal for the winter cleaning company once you guys got started? So early on I was just trying to figure it all out.
How do I hire people? How do I land jobs? I still have like our little calendar book with all the jobs from back in those early years. And like there was gaping holes in the calendar. I'd have work on Monday and then I'd go Thursday and then I'd have Saturday and I was like, all right, well how do I fill out the rest of these days?
So I was just trying to establish something and my dad, he also says now, he's like, I didn't think we can get it where we got it. He's like, I didn't see that potential. Like I was trying to get us off the ground entrepreneurial journey, but I didn't see Clearview becoming what it has become back in those early days.
And I was trying to figure out every aspect, and he'd be in Manhattan and I'd call him and I'd be like, Hey, I got a question about this, or this is going on, or whatever the case may be. And he'd, and he'd try to help guide me from his office where, uh, he was working. And, um, the early days, I, I, I, from early on, I wanted to hit a million dollars.
Like, I was like, I'm getting this company to a million dollars and I wanna bring on, I wanted him to be able to leave the job in the city. Mm-hmm. I wanted to bring on my mom. I wanted to bring my brother on his operations. And then obviously eventually when I met Christine, I wanted to obviously bring her on board.
Um, so the, the, the, the million dollar, um, revenue was the, the ultimate goal that I set out early on. But it was, it was hard. Whenever me and Christine present, especially at the huge, we show our chart of like, growth from thousand four until 2026. Those first 10 years, it's like a plateau. Like it's such minimal growth, like there's growth there.
Mm-hmm. But then it was so small and, uh, Christina asked the credit, the growth to when she came on board. So then we started to get into the, the mountain range. Um, but, uh, it was, it was definitely, um, that was the ultimate goal and that was what I had set out for. Okay. And so Christine and you joined the company in 2017 and started running operations and, and doing things.
I, I just, I read the bio and the timeline and it felt like, it's like Christine's coming in to crack the whip and get these wild-eyed dudes in order. It's like, you got a great idea, but you're all over the place. You gotta have a system. Is that fairly accurate? It's exactly what happened. Okay. It's so literally the chart that we present is like, it's flat, and then it's like, once I joined in 2018, it was like, woo, alright, here we go, let's go.
Um, but we always like to say that my strengths are Freddy's weaknesses. Mm-hmm. And, um, his strengths are my weaknesses. So when I joined we kind of like divided and conquered. Like, we were like, alright, you focus on this, this, and this. I'm gonna focus on this, this, and this, and then we're gonna get this to a million dollars.
And it felt like it took forever to hit a million dollars. There was one year we came in at like. 970,000 and like we had $30,000 worth of work, but the, um, signed, but the, uh, the weather wasn't cooperating leading up to Christmas. Yeah. And we were like trying to send the guys out in the snow. Like we were like, we gotta get to a million dollars.
And we, and we didn't hit it, we hit it, we blew it outta the water the following year, but getting to a million dollars felt nearly impossible until we did it. Yeah. Yeah. So how long had you guys been married or were you married before you joined the company? You guys been together for some time? Um, so basically we met in 2014.
We got engaged in 2015, and then we got married in 2016. I had a, I was a corporate paralegal. I focused on, um, corporate, like intellectual property litigation. It was, it was very interesting and challenging. And that was my, for my entire adult life up until that point. And then we had our daughter shortly after we got married, um, like 10 months later.
And she, um, and, and then after my leave and everything, I was set to go back when our daughter, Gabriela, was four months old. So I went back, I remember it being in October and I went back for three days. And then on that Wednesday I came home and I said, I don't wanna work there anymore. I just wanna. He's her mom.
Like, I can't, I can't like go to work and like not see her. My commute was over an hour. Wow. And he was like, then quit. And then like, I was like, okay, that sounds great, but like, we just got married. I don't even understand your financial situation. Like, I, I don't even know if you know what you bank every year.
So like, I was like, we have to figure something out. So, um, a really good friend of ours, uh, who's actually our financial advisor, suggested that I negotiate a layoff. And I, I did, I went back and I just said, I have to leave, but I am not going to quit. I need you to fire me. And I need to collect unemployment and I need to figure out what life is like being married to an entrepreneur.
And I'd been with them with so long that for so long, that they actually gave me like a full year severance package. And it allowed us the year to transition into like managing the Clearview Finances and seeing what life would be like. But long story short. Um, I intended to be a stay at home mom, but Freddy would come home because he was still in the field.
So like he'd come home with different scenarios and I wanted to help him troubleshoot and I wanted to help him problem solve, and I was able to do that. So very organically, I started just like being a part of the business. And then a few years later he was like, you should be the CEO, and I was like.
Okay. You can tell Sid what, uh, your boss said when you told her you wanted to be, uh, laid off and in the, uh, Australian accent. Actually, she was from Australia. She was our vp, um, legal vp. And I went to her and I was like, I, you know, our baby's four months old and I just can't do this. And I was like, I wanna quit.
I wanna quit. But I, but I just, I don't even think we're gonna have any money this winter 'cause my husband doesn't work in the winter. So I was like, so I need you to fire me. And she was like, oh, okay. Like, she was like, I've never gotten that request before. And I was like, okay. And she was like, well, I'll talk to human resources and we'll figure it out.
And I was like, okay, I will not be at work tomorrow. Like, I, I never went back. Um, the, I went back the following Monday and they had like a going away party for me. But, um, anyway, the whole point is. I wanted to, my family is also, my family comes from Lebanon and they all came over in the seventies and they all started businesses in the us.
Every restaurants dry. My parents had a dry cleaners, all of my aunts and uncles and my parents. Everyone worked together. The spouses worked together. So like I lived this life. My uncle had a wholesale dry cleaner, so we had a warehouse just like the Clearview Warehouse. So like then we had restaurants, and then there was jewelry stores.
So like I've just always, me and my cousins have always been at these businesses. We saw parents fight and aunts and uncles fight, and we knew what money was like. And like, I guess it's just in my blood that it was like, I saw Freddy working and I was like, I'm gonna jump on board with this and we're gonna make it really successful.
Okay. I've gotta ask with the, with the, uh, the Lebanese immigrant background of your family, your extended family from the seventies, and then, then the jersey, um, grow up from Fred, like, who argues better because that there's a pretty high temperature on both ends of this. Take a lucky guess. Well, I know who wins.
I know who wins. The Lebanese have some fire in them. Yeah. I thought the Italian jersey thing. But until you see a Lebanese woman get, uh, met and then it's a whole nother level. Yeah. When you come, coming from that era and that background of turmoil in that part of the, of the world. I joke her, I've been at war for a million years.
I'm like, yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So who's, who's more visionary between the two of you? Because I, I didn't realize you're both from entrepreneurial backgrounds like that. Um, I would consider myself the more visionary person. Yeah, I, I, I'm a dreamer, but I, um, it, there's almost like a back and forth with this, which is why I think we compliment each other.
But like he would have a really good idea and then he'd come to me for like strategy and like, how would we do this? And then I would strategize it, but I need it to be perfect. And he'd be like, no, you have a cutoff. We have to now roll it out. So like, we've always been able to just bounce back and forth between like vision, execution, rollout, and implementation.
Okay. Okay. Even when I met her, she came to my bachelor pet at the time, and there was just stacks of those papers that, it was those carbon papers where you give the customer the white copy. Mm-hmm. And there was result yellow and pink ones, both invoices and estimates and, and like piled high in my apartment.
Yeah. And she was like, all right, step one, we need to go electronic. So then we worked together. I was like, here's five of the best CRMs for our vinyl of. I'm like, I need help picking which one. So she went through, she, she did a demo with all five during her lunch break when she was still at the her job.
Wow. And she came back, she's like, we're going with Jobber. And that's when we, uh, went with Jobber and we've been with them ever since. So like, we've done a lot of that type of stuff where I was like, she, she knows the problem, I knows the problem. Then we worked together and then we kind of came to a conclusion and we made it work.
Okay, cool. Very cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask which CRM, but in, when you first started telling that, I, I put that story all back, way back when you started in 20 2004. And I was like, there were no CRMs. Yeah. You had a spreadsheet maybe, but mm-hmm. This was a, a little more modern. So Christine, what were the first systems that you put in place?
Um, the first one was jobber. Getting everyone on a CRM. Now it's like, it was like a whole family business. My mother-in-law, my father-in-law, my husband and my brother-in-law. So like, trying to implement jobber was like easier with the employees than it was with the phone. Like, no, no, no, no. We're gonna use paper.
And I'm like, Freddy, can you tell your parents we have to use jobber? Is it literally paper, all paper up into that point? All paper, every, everything was paper invoices. His, I have it. Um, darn. I wish it was accessible. I have it in, I have a marble, one of those marble notebooks and I still have his written schedule of which houses he was going to.
Yeah. Who he invoiced. And I kept it as memory because he, like, he hustled really hard and, and it took a lot of work and like constant consistency and, um, anyway, so then we got on jobber. That was our first thing. Uh, we developed a. Great hiring system. 'cause the people he was hiring was like, they, we would see them for two days and they'd be gone.
And then another two, you know, we'd hire someone else and they'd be gone. Or like, he would call me and he'd be like, can you pick up this guy from the train station and drop him off at this house to power wash? And I'd be like, sure. What's his name? Like? So like, I was like, we can't, like, we need someone who can drive.
Um, so we, we created like a really great hiring system, which is actually. Honestly, I think our hire, I, I don't know if, I think, I feel like I know that our hiring system is the reason why we exceeded a million, $2 million in revenue. Because remember, remember when I called you that time, I was like, Christine, the one guy, uh, punched, uh, the other employee in the face at the gas station.
Um, which we do. I remember that. I remember them all. So, hiring system, this could be a great day. Yeah, we had, um, we developed a quoting system and like each year we like to like take on a new system. 'cause things are always evolving. And like what you said back, you know, back in the day there were no CRMs.
Well, even since I joined Clearview eight-ish years ago. There's so much new technology that has rolled out that really, that's what raised the bar in our industry. You didn't see this, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9 years ago. Yeah. So the ability to, um, have hiring softwares, the ability to have quoting softwares, the ability to track crew productivity, that's something we rolled out three years ago.
Now, I, I know which jobs are profitable. It's not just for the whole year, like this is our net, but I know which jobs were profitable and which ones we took a loss on. So like, it's been great to, um, utilize technology. My cousin's husband is our QuickBooks coach, and he says to us all the time, and we've had him speak in front of our employees, and he says, you guys are not a power washing company.
You're actually a technology company that power washes and window washes. Mm-hmm. Because of how we utilize technology to scale. That's cool. Can you give me, at a high level, kinda run me through your tech stack? Um, okay. CRM jobber quoting is on respons in bonus up is how we track crew productivity. Ninja VA is where we get our virtual assistants.
That's, that's a huge part of tech too. Yeah. Um, um, hire, bus hire, what was that? Yeah. Company cam hire bus company cam for photos before and afters and videos. Hire bus. I have everybody run through hire bus for proper placement within the company. Um, luckily I, I got a nine as CEO. Um, what else am I missing, Freddy?
Obviously QuickBooks, but that's more of a Yeah. QuickBooks. Oh. Um, this is a new one, but it's actually really exciting. We use school.com Yeah. As our hub for our employees. So it's like our personal page so our employees can message each other. I have our training classroom if our, there's a, an app on the phone, so if our employees wanna call out, um, they just go to school.com and they go into the Clearview classroom and they can click the form to submit a call out form a PTO form.
Yeah. It's, it's, there's like a log so they can post, like everyone was posting pictures at Christmas time with their families. So that's something new. And um, it's awesome because we're all remote and the employees are all over the place, but it like brings us all together. That's really interesting.
Usage of school. Yeah, I, I've not heard of anybody doing that except we use Slack for, you know, with the company, the communication channels and stuff like that. But you can do all that in school. Yeah, we were using Slack and then I switched over to school and it's like, it was awesome. Like, our guys got laid off in mid-December because of the weather.
So, um, like at Christmas time, everyone's like, love you guys. Like, it keeps things out of text and people were posting pictures and then on New Year's there was like, everyone was like, happy New Year. Our VAs in the Philippines posted pictures with their families celebrating New Year's Eve and like, it, it really brings you together.
Like it's, it's a really cool platform for that. And it's, it's affordable. So, yeah. Did you start using school to, uh, to use it as your LLM for training and things like that? Or did you. Start using it just to replace Slack. Uh, I started using it. I discovered it because of my process. CEO, like coaching community.
I like settled on that for process CEO for business coaching. Yeah. And I was like, I think that I can use this for Clearview. So I showed it to Freddy, it was $99 a month and I was like, I think that we should try this. Let's try it for a year and if you don't like it, I'll dump it. And, um. So that's how I did it.
And then I learned how to utilize the classroom. So like we can film training, YouTube videos, for example, and put them on like private on YouTube, but they're all linked in a classroom. Yeah, on school.com. So like I have our whole training. And easy employee access. So like for bonus up there's a leaderboard, right?
And we have this leaderboard of the crew productivity and who wins for the day and the week and whatever. Yeah. We have that on a TV screen at the shop. But there's like, now in the classroom we have bonus up reports and the guys can just go in a bonus up and click the link and see the leaderboard on their phone.
So like, oh, no kidding. It's like a one stop shop because I can put like Google docs, like if I need them to fill out, um, an emergency contact form or like now I have them doing, um, photo and video release forms. 'cause we're doing bigger things on social media. Yeah. I like have the link there. So like, everything's accessible in one place.
'cause you have to remember field employees, they're not sitting at a desk all day. Yeah. They're not going home to a computer. So like, I wanted there to be an easier way than Slack to have like one hub of data and information and a place to share. And school did that for us. So that's our newest technology.
Our first year was 2025 and wasn't Slack. We weren't able to get rid of previous employees off of there. Like, or what? There was a thing, I forget what it was. I just, I just, it, I couldn't visually see it, how I wanted to see it in Slack. And School makes it like easier for me to like, see our team, see everyone's faces, see the classroom.
Like we needed a central, we needed like a company CRM, like for our employees. Yeah. And I got that from school. No, that's really cool. We've, we've struggled with that exact issue with, you know, the, the field guys, they're, they've got a phone and they're working and they're not sitting at a desk. Slack is great for a company of desk employees.
Yeah. In remote workers you have to, you have to get on, get on school. Yeah. Oh, that's cool, man. I got my money's worth out of today's conversation right here. Thank you. Um, oh, that's cool. Okay, so I, I want to ask you to both, and, and I don't care who goes first, start how you want, but talk about working together as spouses is, it's not super common in any industry and there's a lot of dynamics that go between home and work.
How do you maintain professional as well as your loving relationship and, you know, not be mad at the end of the day or whatever. Just start somewhere and tell me about what's it like to work together as spouses? You guys teach a lot about this, uh, industry. Yes. Do you want me to start, or do you wanna start?
Yeah, Whitney's first. Um, okay. So it wasn't always this great and so like other couples in the industry, like when I first started it was because it wasn't only my husband, it was my in-laws and my brother-in-law. So like. It wasn't. So there were, I can't even say a blurred line. There were no lines between when work communication stopped and like family kicked in.
So like the family thread, like I would send a newborn photo of Gabriela and then like his dad would text and be like, we got a one star review on Google. And that was at like, and I'm like, I can't, I don't have the ability and I don't like the corporate world either, but like. I think the stuff I was able to pull from it and implement into Clearview were valuable.
And it was, we don't need to text about, we can't text about work. Like no one's allowed to text about work. And that took a long time. But now there are no texts about work. It's, we all have email addresses, so if we do get a one star review and you choose to read it at 10:00 PM you can forward it to us and I'll read it when I'm working at 8:00 AM the next day.
So like there were boundaries that we had to create that took like two to three years. And then boundaries between me and Freddy, like I would, you know, run payroll and then he'd be about to fall asleep and I'd be like, there's no money in the account. And he would, he'd be like, why are you telling me now?
And I'd be like, I forgot to tell you earlier. And we'd have to figure out where to transfer money from. So like those things, we, we said it, at the end of the day, work is done because if he doesn't wanna be working at 10:00 PM if I want to, I can jump on, but I have to check my email. Everything is through email now.
There is no texting about work and that fixed everything. And he works from the shop. I work from home. I go to the shop, um, sometimes, but I think like having separate workspaces really has benefited us. And I'd have to say like if I've been at the company for eight years now, I think the first two were challenging in our marriage with work and life balance.
Mm-hmm. And then the last six have been great. I love working. I genuinely love working with him. Like we, we are so aligned in terms of our vision for Clearview Washing and for our family and for our financial freedom that like when it comes to work, regardless of what's going on in our personal life, we can jump on a call and like execute like that.
Yeah. Cool. Let me, I'm gonna get to interrupt both of you. I'm gonna pull the mic really closely here. Fred. You're a very lucky man. You got me. I'm okay. I'm alright. I knew you knew. Alright, let's hear it from, from your, um, yeah, Soly. I don't wanna repeat it. She's spot on with everything. Um, those earlier years were tough 'cause I was the middleman.
So like, I was like, if she had a problem with something that my mom, dad, or brother was doing, she'd let me know that and then I'd have to go convey it. And then it was like, it wasn't, that wasn't fun. Um, and at the end of the day though, like just working with her, that's why I wanted her to become the CEO.
I think there's a lot of people in this industry. I think there's more husbands and wives working together, but like, they don't necessarily see it that way. 'cause maybe the wife has a full-time job and then she helps with the husband behind the scenes doing administrative stuff. Like every scenario is different, but I feel like a lot of the women don't get the credit they deserve.
And that's why I told Christine, like, I want her to be front facing and be the CEO 'cause she deserves that. And with everything she's doing, I think establishing also like the boundaries and the lines of like, who's responsible for what. So that we're not, we weren't all working on the same thing and, and kind of wasting time.
Um, I think that was really huge. Um, and I think just setting the boundaries, like she said, like we try to do no business talk in bed, and like every once in a while one of us will slip up and like, she'll be like, I don't want hear this right now. And then vice versa, she'll be dumping me on, uh, about something.
I'm like, I don't want to hear that right now. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's 10:00 PM I'm enjoying whatever show we're watching to like, relax and unwind before we go to bed. Like, let's, let's, and we respect it. Like, it's like you need the reminder. Like, I could be frazzled about something, but he's like, Christine, I'm done for the day.
And I'm like, I'm sorry. You're right. Like, I'll shoot you an email and I'll send him an email. We're laying next to each other in bed and I would like send the email from my phone so that he gets it in the morning. Just to, we have to, the only way we'll succeed is if we respect the boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, that's, it sounds funny to say we're side by side in bed.
I'm gonna email you. Mm-hmm. But the having that boundary and a clear line Yeah. Is so valuable. I really appreciate that. And we go out to dinner sometimes and people are like, oh, like that's not a boundary for us. Like if we, like, we're not gonna bring up like bad stuff, but like, if we wanna talk some strategies, some futures, some like things we can do.
Like I we're going on a date night tomorrow night. I wouldn't be surprised if we started talking to some business. Like, uh, we, we enjoy talking about that stuff, especially when there's a passion, um, involved with that. And obviously we're both see the end goal of where we're trying to reach. Yeah. Another like key thing, I think it's because of how great our employees are, is Freddy's home for dinner every night at five.
'cause my kids eat early. They eat at five. Yeah. And like that never slips. Like we eat dinner together at five o'clock and we're very present with the kids. Like we. We're able to shut it off at this point. And I feel like years ago when it was more chaotic and we had less systems, it was really hard to shut it off.
So like we've, we've really nailed like our work life balance, I feel like. Yeah. That's How old are your kids now? You got two kids, right? Yeah. Six and eight. Six and eight. Okay, good. And, and what a remarkable gift for them. It's like your family culture to go dinner at five. Yeah. Whatever. It's have dinner together.
Yep. Yeah, I love that. And we bring them in too. Whenever there's a Clearview van, we pull, we'll pull them out of school. Like, to me, like I want them learning entrepreneurship firsthand. They engage with all the employees. Um, they, they enjoy coming to the shop. We just moved to a new location. They're, they're like, I wanna go see the new shop.
Like, they get excited if we're doing an event. Um, there's a lifetime gym where we were handed out stuff. They're like, all right, we're gonna have a strategy. They're like, we're gonna go up to certain people and we're gonna hand out their little Clearview rubber docs to every kid that walks by. And they're, but we're gonna go, we're gonna give a pamphlet to the parents.
I'm like, deal. And like they executed on all day. Yeah. They were going back and forth. And my daughter would call my son out on 'em. My son would call my daughter like, you missed one. You missed one. Oh. And they're all about it. And they're like, they're hustling. And I love seeing that. So I know. Whenever like, uh, uh, me and Christine talk, I'm like, we're doing it right.
'cause like I see them seeing it firsthand. They're they're involved in it and they're confident. Yeah. Like they don't have to be entrepreneurs, whatever they want to do, but I want 'em to at least have a taste of that so they know if they're interested. Yeah. Yeah. Having a taste of and immersion into that, that work ethic and hustle culture as an entrepreneur.
Like, and I don't mean, hu hu I don't really like hustle culture and grind and all that because, well, for a lot of reasons maybe we'll get into, but to have a sense of, and seeing that, you know, the, the risk reward factors, like the harder you work, the luckier you get mm-hmm. To actually see it and not just read it or hear it.
I, I really love that. What a, what a blessing for your family and your future generations. Well done. Thank you. Let's, let's go back to, I just want to go for like. The, the past five and a half years, it's 2026 or February, 2026. From, from 2020 till now. This is, I assume has been most of the growth that you guys have had together as a company is, you know, COVID to now, what was it like in 2020?
And then like, kind of take me through the, the peaks and valleys, or maybe it's just a straight line, like a rocket launch. Um, 2020 obviously as everyone experienced was a little scary. But then, um, you know, spring wasn't as busy as it should have been. But then come August, like we just blew up. Um, so 2020 was a unique year.
Um, we experienced steady growth. So what I was saying earlier is like, it, it felt like it took forever to hit a million dollars and then from 1 million to 2 million, you like fly there. Mm-hmm. Like, it is very strange. Like we didn't. It's not like we didn't have to work hard enough, but like we didn't strive for it the way we did with 1 million.
We were like, oh, let's hit like we thought, like let's hit 1.3 and then let's hit 1.5 and then let's hit 1.7. But like 2 million just came like that. And then now the grind from like 2 million to 5 million, five millions the next, um, milestone for us. Yeah, like that feels like the challenge that we went through going from, you know, zero to a million essentially.
So over the last few years we've been trying to strategize after we hit two, uh, 2 million is like, what can we do now to get to 5 million? Well, we have to reinvest into the company in a more strategic way. And I think it's going to be less strategy because we've nailed hiring laborers. But like, what do we do now?
We have to invest in sales talent. So like now we're like doing things we've never done before. Higher salaries, higher commissions. Bringing on people from other industries that are better at sales than we are. Initially, it was like me, Freddy, and his dad, and we, we, us three are so passionate. We wanna win.
So like we can sell anything to anyone, right? But like, we're gonna, we know we're gonna call every customer back. We know that we're going to like lock in every deal that we can. But, and then you, we like dabbled with like certain salespeople and we were like, okay, this is good. This got us to 2 million.
But now we're like, no, for us to get to 5 million, we need like rock stars in sales. So like, we bought in someone from the fitness industry who's just a king as sales. He spoke at the huge last year actually. Okay. Um, and then we bought in somebody else who now we're trying this for the first time. We give him zero leads all week.
He's out getting his own leads. Okay. And he is killing it. So like, we're trying new things. Like we always say like, the reason I think we're succeeding is because we never think that we're the best at everything. Like we are going to continue to absorb from everyone we talk to. What do we do next? What do we do next?
So the last like two to three years have really been like, okay, now how do we get to 5 million? And it's a lot different than what we needed to do to get to a million. Yeah. So you're your systems, and I mean real systems, it seemed like it's what brought you over a million. Mm-hmm. But now you're investing back in the company through roles and leadership.
Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah. Yeah. We, we rebranded. That was part of it too. We felt like our branding got a little stale. Uh, went more into social media and content. Um, obviously the hiring, uh, our ops manager we brought in 'cause we tried to always hire from within and that didn't work out with the operations role.
Just because they were, uh, awesome. Lead tech did not mean they were gonna be an awesome, um. Uh, ops manager for US manager, and we failed at that twice. Uh, my brother was our ops manager and he was killing it. Uh, the problem was he had entrepreneurial aspirations as well, so he ended up buying a pool, cleaning and restoration company.
So he went out and he's an entrepreneur himself now. After he left, we promoted from within twice and just fell flat on our faces. Um, and they're, and we ended up bringing 'em both back and they, they wanted to stay with the company, but in a lead tech role. Um, yeah. And then we decided to hire someone that had operational experience from Chick-fil-A and the healthcare industry and everything, but exterior cleaning.
And I'm like, if they can run operations, I can teach 'em the ins and outs of our industry. Yeah. And that's been a huge success for us too. Oh, that's cool. Do you, are you familiar with Jonathan Patosh? He's. He, uh, he started, I think it was service, CEO. He's got a, a significant landscape company in Dallas-Fort Worth.
Mm-hmm. Um, he has been, so, he is in a, in a, an adjacent industry to us, and he was at one of our, he was on a panel at a dinner we hosted a couple years ago in Nashville. And so he built their, he's got a partner. He worked about, you know, five, 10 hours a week. They got their lawn care company up to 10, 11 million a year.
Wow. And he had service CEO and, and it was very significant. He, he had an exit on that, which is like the, the kind of life changing money. He's super down to earth. It didn't change him. Mm-hmm. But when we were talking to dinner, uh, this panel we're talking about, you know, the keys to real growth and really being established in that growth.
He, he's so mild and modest when he stood up and said, listen to me. It got everyone's attention. 'cause he's a, you know, he is just a soft spoken guy. And he said, look, all of these strategies and all these things are great. He said, but the key when you want real growth is your people, and you've gotta pay 'em as much as you can.
Said, we had a guy, and I don't know what role he was in, we were paying 250,000 a year. And he was not moving the deal on a company. We fired him. We hired somebody. We're paying him $400,000 a year. And my, and I'm like getting tight in my throat about those kind of numbers. And he said he added like 6 million in revenue to the company in one year.
And he is like, you gotta get the right people. Yeah, you gotta pay your people. And I've like listening to your story, mine is very similar with the growth of our companies. And I go, we try to promote from within within, which is, is good. It's, it's got a noble side to it and a co you know, a, a culture thing to it.
But when you really get to the point where you're like, we're gonna grow, we've gotta go. You hire an expert. Yeah. You guys hire coaches to coach you. You even mentioned having an Excel, or not Excel, but a. QuickBooks coach and I was like, who does that? Okay. It was like, when you want to go pro, you hire a pro to teach you.
Yeah. So the people that got us to 2 million weren't gonna be the same people that got us to five. And we realize that, and we had to make some changes to, to accommodate that. And I'm loving it. Like the, the, the sales team is like, they're freaking rock stars and like they always say, hire people that are even better than you at what you're doing.
And like they are. And like, I love working with them. Um, both, uh, obviously both guys and obviously the operations is great and our field techs with the hiring process are great. So like I, every year at our company events, I always say, this is the best team we ever had. But like, I really mean that. 'cause every year it's getting better and better.
So like, and I think everyone sees that themselves too and really appreciates it. Yeah. So you guys teach a lot in the industry. I mean, you've, you, you interview others, you teach, you have a coaching thing. You've spoken at the huge convention. I see you guys speaking at other industry events and stuff, and you do that a lot.
You bring a lot of value. What I want to ask is, who do you learn from? Who are your mentors that you, uh, who's your coach? Well, I, I always looked up to Brandon Vaughn tremendously. Like, uh, when I saw he, that, when I saw he reached $5 million before exiting himself, like that was like, and he was doing all those awesome videos.
He was showing people to be behind the scenes. And a lot of people will say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but then they won't execute. And we see that when we're coaching too. Like, and that's why you're. Driven or not, uh, you're drawn to the people that actually execute. Like me and Christina always talk about different people that we're coaching, like that's an executor.
I love that guy. I love that girl. Like they execute, like you tell him what to do and then a week later, a month later, they're like, that's done. That's done. No matter like what it is. And I absolutely love that. I felt like I was that way with Brandon. Like if he said jump, it was like, all right, how high do you want me to jump?
Like yeah, I'm gonna execute on whatever it is. And that's where I would come to Christine with all types of ideas from stuff I was learning myself. I'm like, I think we should look into this software. I think we should do this. I think we should do that. And then like, we were taking each step. But like that's someone that I would give a lot of credit to.
'cause that's who I really luck up to for a long time. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. If he, even if he like posted a Facebook video, like a short Facebook video, we would like save it, watch it at night and be like, okay, we have to figure out how to do this. Like we just wanted to execute and then we like every book.
Every single book. Like I have this and then I have another bookshelf over there. But like any book that comes out, industry related or, um, the speakers at the huge and we, we get the book and we just get to work. I read it. 'cause there's always one thing you can take away. Like I, I always like use the word fluff.
Like I hate fluff. Like I want like actionable. Like this is how you do this. And um, so a lot of books are fluff, but there's still like one thing you learn in that book that you're like, oh, I read one book that I felt like was all fluff. Like, it was like, okay, so you're a multimillionaire, but how did you do it?
But there one takeaway that I took, which was, um, this like way, a certain way of doing employee report cards. And I was like, oh, that's genius. So now we have like employee scorecards. So like there's always something to take away and. There are so many more people than not that think like, oh, but that would never work for me, but that would never work in my demographic.
That would never work in this region of the us. That just would never work. But it's like, no, if somebody else does more in revenue than you, you do have to take away what they're teaching you. It does work. You just have to, it's a mindset shift. Yeah. So what, what are one or two of the biggest mind shifts you guys have had together as a couple to grow your business?
Because you, you don't go from a half a million to a million without changing the way you think. We're not, we're not offering jobs. We're offering careers. That was a big one. Um, that was a mind shift. And that one like, seems like, all right, not that big, but like that was totally different. We we're, we're hiring people that are providing for their families.
It's not just some job where they're collecting a few bucks and then kind of doing whatever they want. Um, that was a huge one. Do you have any other ones, Christine? Yeah. My mine was like paying higher salaries. Like I was terrified to pay higher salaries even knowing that this person would execute because they know more than we do.
But I was terrified to pay these high salaries. Mm-hmm. But, um, it's, it's, it's paying off. And I have to say that I know that a lot of people run the company on their own, but there is like, it's a blessing for there to be like me, Freddie, and his dad. 'cause if me and Freddie are hesitant about things, his dad comes in and says, you too.
I understand how you're feeling, but you have to think he's, he always says you have to zoom out and think big picture. Don't think about right now. Zoom out and think big picture. And sometimes we need to hear that. Yeah. And then there are other times where like Freddy and his dad are like, oh, this is a stupid process.
And I'm like, no, just do it. You know? And then, but like we all have to like, we all like the, there is power in us being like, so totally different in encouraging each other to like, go along with a certain plan. I think we've made really strategic, I think we've been very strategic risk takers, um, in how we've grown the company.
Yeah. Yeah. But the high salaries was a huge mindset shift for me. Okay, cool. Um, when you shifted from job to career, did it change the retention, the employee retention? Or did it change the way you've taught about Okay, good. Our retention rate is like 95%. Like that's not, say we're cleaning in New Jersey, like, yeah, we lose one guy a year and this year we didn't even lose anyone.
So like, uh, at the end of the day it's like. Everyone's on board. We're very transparent when we're hiring people too. Like, Hey, you're gonna be off in the months of January and February. We'll see how December goes. We, we will try to go as far into December and we start back first week of March, but I can't, like, we're not gonna work January and February.
It's not just throwing upon them when all of a sudden, uh, Christmases rolling around like, oh yeah, by the way, you're gonna be laid off right now. Good luck. Yeah. Like they know, so they prepare for it. Some of them go on vacations, some of them do DoorDash, some shovel, uh, snow removal, like everyone does something different, but they're all back here.
On March 9th is our kickoff, so a week from this Monday, we're gonna have our kickoff meeting and everyone's coming. Oh, that's cool. They all know, they all know how to window wash and power wash and clean a gutter like that is the easy part. But like we have shifted in the sense that like, we are almost like motivational speakers to these people.
Like we look at it as like, I, like we could change the entire trajectory of this person's life by giving them a career. Mm-hmm. They think they're applying for a job, but they could be here forever because we are giving them growth. We're giving them, um, you know, security. We've, we now offer 4 0 1 ks and health insurance.
Like, we want it to be a place where they can actually grow and thrive. And one of our guys bought a house last year and like one bought an engagement ring and he got engaged. So we're like seeing them grow from like kids in their twenties into adults. Yeah. And we're trying to like stand behind them and motivate them.
One of them texted. One of 'em just texted me and Freddie and he was just like, I just wanna thank you guys so much. You guys have really helped me, you've changed my life, whatever, whatever. And he's a, he's our lead trainer. And my response to him was, you don't have to thank me. You're the one doing the work.
Just know that me and Freddie will always be here to support you. Yeah. That is, that is so rewarding with, um, with some of the thing, you know, you said you, you're kinda like motivational speakers for 'em. You're, you teach 'em a skill, you teach 'em how to, you know, run their role, but you're also teaching 'em life skills, right?
Yeah. Do you, um, have like a leadership develop development plan or program where, like, what are the types of things that you teach? Your employees that is gonna be good for them no matter where they work in the future. We are always trying to build their confidence because they don't have that, they may not have been given that as a child.
Um, going job to, job, to job that. You lose confidence right there. So I always do, um, like team building things when we're all together and we get together three times a year in to like the entire company is together three times a year. The kickoff meeting in March, Clearview Day in August, and then our holiday party in December.
And at every single one of those events, we always start it with something motivational. And Freddie used to think it was so corny, but now he loves it. So like one of them would be, um, one time I had like a whiteboard and I gave everybody post-its, and I said, on everyone got three post-its. And I said, on each post-it write a goal or a dream or a vision somewhere.
You wanna be in the next year, two years, five years, whatever it is. I wanna know like one goal and vision. And they had to write three of 'em. And then you have to have them stand up and go to the front of the room and present that in front of everyone and stick it onto the company vision board. Wow. And like that is getting them to open up, because I know the guy.
I know which of our guys are insecure. Like one of 'em who seems like a complete boss when he is power washing, he always says, I don't know. And I'm like, okay, I'll come back to you. You can think about it. Like I wanna build that confidence in them. I want them to speak in front of people with their chin up.
I want them to share their goals and their dreams with people. And now they all have a support system. Our guys hang out with each other outside of work. So like another one that I did was, um, stand up in front of the room and tell everybody, um, one great trait about yourself and one great trait about someone you work with here at Clearview.
This went on for like an hour and a half. We had our guys walking to the center of the room, hugging each other. Like it turns, it just opens everybody up to really connect. Yeah. And now it's like a brotherhood amongst our team, but it's because we've learned so much about each other. That is really cool.
We, I did, um. A similar exercise about a year ago, and I thought it was gonna be corny. I was like, I, I wish one of my guys would do this exercise. So I didn't have to say it, but I, I gave 'em sticky notes and have 'em like, just write down what they like about their coworker. Like individually? Yeah. And stick, and we'd just put 'em in a pile We didn't read or anything, but I took, we separated 'em all.
So everybody for, you know, Jake, all of his went to envelope. We stuck it in his station and then Darby's went his, at the end of the day, they had, they all had like 10 or 11 things. Oh. That somebody else wrote about 'em and you didn't sign their name. And they, at that, after they came back and I was at the office that day and like some of the guys were crying.
They're like, dude, I had no, I like, and they, they ended up with this. Big bonding moment. Yeah. Because they realized what the other people were thinking about 'em and 'cause they didn't have sign their name. Everybody was pretty transparent about Yeah. What they really thought. And uh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
So I, I love what you shared. Actually, I just made a note to review this recording. 'cause we have our kickoff next Monday and Tuesday. Mm-hmm. I was literally looking for a game or an exercise to do with our crew when we come back and, uh, you just gave it to me, Christine. Yeah, yeah, of course. I couldn't be more proud at the end of that exercise.
Like I told her leading up to 'em, like, you're really gonna make them do this. We really gotta do, they were supposed have fun. I'm like, uh, and then by the end of it I'm like, this is awesome. And they had family members there. Like, it was like, it was just awesome to see all that. And I felt like a fly on the wall.
Like it was all about them and the coworkers. It was nothing about me and Christine. Like we weren't mentioning it all. It was all about them. And that was so cool to say, man. Yeah. If you think about like a field tech. Right. Like, this is not like a judgment thing. This is an experience thing. Like based on my experience, you, you are likely going to have somebody who may not have the best childhood or adult role models or guidance or someone to go to with advice or something.
So like as I was seeing those types of people, I was like, what can we do to make an impact on their lives? And once we started to see that we were making a positive impact on their lives, the company became successful. Like it truly goes hand in hand. Yeah. We, we always said, we want everyone, no matter how long they're here, whether they're here one year, five years, 10 years, we want them to leave here better off than when they arrived.
And we truly mean that too. So we've gotten, uh, the team OSHA 30 trained aerial lift trained. We've done all types of stuff too. So they have that in their arsenal. They have that card forever, right? They're officially trained. They can put that on feature resume. Yeah. And at the end of the day, we helped them try to reach their goals too.
Um, there's been people in the company, like one wanted to become a police officer last year. He had an opportunity. We pushed him and he became a police officer. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Another guy desperately wanted to work out of college. Christina had a conversation with him and he wanted to work, um, with, uh, special needs children.
And her cousin happens to run one of the, the biggest au autism schools in New Jersey, and she put them in contact. I'm not gonna lie, the first year I was pissed off that she like basically got rid of one of our best employees to go work for her cousin. But at the end of the day, big picture, it was like, that's awesome.
Like we helped him go do his goal and I still talk to him from time to time and I'm proud that like all these years later he is still doing that. And that was, he was passionate about that. Oh, that's cool. So, um, last big question before we wrap up is, you guys have a pretty clear vision or goal right now is go from where you are to, you know, to hit that 5 million mark and that's, it's very evident.
Um. The, with the principle of having everyone on the team rowing in the same direction, what are the, the incentives or the, like, how are you helping to motivate the technicians in a way that helps you meet that, reach that goal of 5 million? Because I, I know what the goal means from an owner level, right?
Well, we were talking about the tech stack before and we use bonus up. And Bonus Up is basically a system where it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the opportunity with the old carrot and the stick. And it's like, we wanna reward people that are kicking butt for us and we wanna make sure we hold people accountable.
And ironically, Christina always talks about this, like, the guys wanna be held accountable 'cause they want their peers held accountable too. Like I used to think no one wants to be like this or that. Well they actually do like, uh, they wanna make sure that everyone's being held at the same standard. But with bonus up, we're able to basically say that if your production rate is above 1 25 an hour individually, that it's between 1 25 means you're doing your job.
But between 1 25, 1 35, you're gonna get an extra dollar per hour between 1 35, 1 40, but you're gonna get $2 an hour between 1 45, 1 55, you're gonna get $3 all the way up to like, they can make an extra $10 per hour, um, in pay based off of their production rate. Yeah. We also pay them $10 per review. Um, we basically, the culture is strong.
Um, so we basically, we wanna make sure that each department is communicating with each other too, between the field operations. Sales and ownership. We wanna make sure all four are kind of aligned on exactly what's going in the office. So make it five. Uh, we wanna make sure everyone's aligned with that.
So I think by bringing everyone together, offering the additional pay incentives and doing that, that, that helps to drive everyone, keeping 'em aligned to get to that ultimate goal. Okay. Good. Good. Christine, you would you add to that? Yeah, mine, my response is a little different, but I, I agree with that in incentivizing the field crew, but I think that was part of the mindset shift and like, what got us to 2 million versus what'll get us to 5 million.
And I think strong field techs we've mastered, and I know that I can get another 18 if I needed to through my hiring system. But now I feel like the shift is going to be in sales, strong closing numbers and opera and like field operations, like leadership. Like I feel like back then it was like we needed like the work to get done properly and efficiently and whatever.
And now it's like on the backend, like, okay, we have the leads flowing in, but we need our closing ratio to like, we need to close all of these jobs. We need to focus on getting government bids. We need to focus on multi-day, um, projects. Keep the guys at one place for a week, like higher margin projects. So like mine is more on like that backend.
And that was the huge mind shift mindset shift for me is like now these big dogs that we have in sales are going to get us to the five mill. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And I'll provide the text. Okay. Yeah. What, um. What it would be your advice to anybody that's going from a million to 2 million and like, or any, anybody that just wants to get to a million.
'cause there a lot of people listening will be in that category. They're like, they've got that goal. I gotta get to a million. Gotta get to a million. What are the big shifts that they need to make or what's your advice to them? If you could just tell 'em, do this one thing, it's gonna make more difference than anything else.
I believe that, um, at that point, if you're trying to approach a million, you have to start implementing systems. You can get to 500,000 without them and you're likely not at the shop all day. You're likely out in the field kind of running operations. You have to train your guys in a way that they can focus on getting the work done properly.
And you have to focus on building systems that can scale. That way you can just continue to add to your company. Yeah, and I would say in addition to that, like yes, be out in the field, but like off the truck they gotta get off the truck. Yeah. And that's one of the hardest parts to do. But I think also making sure that their day-to-day tests are high level stuff.
Mm-hmm. They're not just everyone's busy, but like, if they were to write down everything they've done for the whole week, like every single thing they do during Workday, how many things should be delegated to other people in the company mm-hmm. Or automated or whatever the case may be. Like they're, they're, they, they're getting, they're getting, um, distracted by Home Depot runs and bank deposits and stuff that is eating up time, but not actually generating money.
And I think it's important at that level to make sure that they're running operations, but also getting as many leads and, and, and as many sales as possible. Yeah. That's great. If you think about like, um, how many times an owner has to run out to deliver a, uh, like a hose or, uh, an X Jett or something like that, imagine if they spent that time in the shop building bundles and learning how to cross-sell and upsell every single client to like double their average ticket.
Like, that's where the value is. Like it's in the brain, it's not on the road. You can have an Uber deliver a hose. Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. Well, both of you, thanks for spending time because like we finally got our deep conversation. 'cause the last two years is huge. When it's all over, I see you guys at breakfast the next day when everybody's kinda like, decompress, and we chat for about 10 minutes and I go, I need to, I need to sit down and talk with you guys.
Um, so I now finally had the chance. Thank you so much. How, if somebody wants to follow you or learn more, like what's the best place for them to go? You can follow me everywhere at the process. CEO. Um, and I, I could talk business all day long, so feel free to shoot me questions and good stuff. Okay. Okay, cool.
And for me, Fred Hodge Jr. Uh, literally on every platform. Um, and, uh, I, Clearview washing, uh, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, um, Google, you name it. We're on pretty much all of 'em. Awesome. Well, thanks again. I'm gonna ask you if you would stay on for a minute after we, we end, but for today, that is all for the huge transformation show.
Thanks for being a part of it and sharing your story. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having us.
Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the huge mastermind. Now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the link here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like the show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. It as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Molly Moran, founder of green sweep, an eco-friendly house cleaning company in Albuquerque, New Mexico that she built from cleaning toilets herself to a multi–seven-figure business with 35+ employees. Molly shares how a real-life asthma-triggering cleaning experience led to her “green” positioning, and how her original dream (inspired by The 4-Hour Workweek) evolved into building a company designed for profit, impact, and freedom.
Molly breaks down the moves that helped her scale: staying focused instead of chasing extra services, investing aggressively in marketing + recruiting, and constantly pressure-testing pricing to support better wages and a more professional customer experience. She also talks leadership—why shifting from “managing” to coaching your team creates better outcomes—and how Profit First became a turning point in escaping “entrepreneurial poverty.” Finally, Molly previews CleanCon in Indianapolis (a residential-only conference built around connection, innovation, and education) and shares the real challenge she’s working through now: protecting space and energy while operating at a higher level across multiple businesses.
 
Show Notes:
Molly Moran
The LIVE BRIGHT Show 
Molly Moran on Instagram
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Huge Foundations Facebook Group
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
Sid Graef: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I’m Sid Graef outta Montana.
 
Gabe Torres: I’m Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: And I’m Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business.
 
Sid Graef: We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry—folks that have already built seven- and eight-figure businesses and they want to help you succeed.
 
Gabe Torres: Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real-life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece.
 
Sid Graef: Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let’s dive in.
 
Sid Graef: Hey everybody, it’s Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, and today we’ve got a really great interview episode and conversation with my friend Molly Moran. Molly Moran runs a significant—uh—house… I can’t talk today, but I think you’ll get the point. She’s got a house cleaning company in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
 
She grew it from scratch, from cleaning toilets to a robust multi–seven-figure business with 35 employees. She’s got her own podcast, The Live Bright Show. She has a coaching and training program called Live Bright, and she’s hosting an event. She runs marathons, and she’s got two really cool dogs.
 
But you’re gonna enjoy our conversation ’cause it’s filled with insights and advice that she got early on and transformed the way she operated her business. So with that, I hope you enjoy the conversation with Molly as much as I did. Thanks for joining us today.
 
Sid Graef: Hey everybody. Thanks for joining us on the Huge Transformations show. I’m Sid, and today’s guest is Molly Moran—and you are gonna have, I hope you have as much fun as I am. Molly, how are you? I’ve got a little introduction for you, but first, how you doing? Thanks for being on the show.
 
Molly Moran: I’m great. I’m so happy to be here, Sid. Thanks for having me.
 
Sid Graef: Cool. And I love your headshot. It just says “Bright” at the front and it shows like, “Let’s live bright.” So for those of you that have never met or heard of Molly—Molly’s from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Can you spell that for me please?
 
Molly Moran: Oh, like for real? No.
 
Sid Graef: The founder of green sweep, which is a substantial eco-friendly house cleaning business in Albuquerque. You host The Live Bright Show and you have the Live Bright community and you coach people and help them. And this speaks to me so—Molly, you help people make more money, have more fun, and have more freedom. And I am a freedom hound. That’s my biggest motivator. And fun comes right after that. And money is third, but still important. So we’re gonna talk about that some.
 
And this year you and a handful of friends are hosting a live conference, a get-together in— is it Indianapolis?
 
Molly Moran: It is, yes. Indianapolis, in March, called CleanCon.
 
Sid Graef: CleanCon. First time I heard the name I was like, “Is this someone who got outta prison? Doesn’t have any tattoos—CleanCon?”
 
Molly Moran: Sid—like, I’m like, “No, it’s a cleaning conference.”
 
Sid Graef: And then the last part of my introduction, and probably the most important thing, is you have a dog named Bentley.
 
Molly Moran: I do. And we have another dog—we got Bentley a sibling a month ago, and his name is Leo.
 
Sid Graef: Very good. What are the breeds of your dogs?
 
Molly Moran: They’re both little rescues. Leo is a schnauzer—we just got his DNA back yesterday. Bentley is a schnauzer… she’s like a schnoodle, but she also has husky and German shepherd in her.
 
Sid Graef: Well, she’ll probably live 25 years with a good mix like that.
 
Molly Moran: Let’s hope.
 
Sid Graef: Before we actually get started, I met with a friend of one of my clients this morning—she’s an architect. She said the vendor booth that was the top booth most visited: they put down AstroTurf and they brought 10 puppies. People could just sit down and play with puppies.
 
Molly Moran: That’s smart. That’s brilliant.
 
Sid Graef: I’m like, instantly I was like, “I wanna be a vendor at somebody’s show, and I’ll take a bunch of puppies and popsicles.”
 
Molly Moran: Great idea.
 
Sid Graef: Let’s go back toward the beginning of your business career. Was green sweep the first business you started, or did you start before that?
 
Molly Moran: That was my first business. I started green sweep in 2009, so it’s been a minute and a half. Very first business and pretty random, honestly.
 
I was a victim of The 4-Hour Workweek, so I was reading it on a beach in Mexico in like 2007 and I was like, “I’m gonna go for it.” And then fast forward six months—I started a cleaning company.
 
I was in the nonprofit world—program management. My trajectory was like, “I’ll be an executive director someday,” and then I was like, “I actually don’t wanna do this.” I kept getting bored and switching jobs, and decided I should start my own business.
 
It could have been anything. I had certain parameters: low startup costs, I’ve gotta be able to do it, not high-technology focused. I had hired a cleaning service at my house at the time, came home one day and couldn’t breathe because of the chemicals they used. I triggered an asthma attack and I was like, “Oh, I should start an environmentally friendly cleaning company.” That’s literally how the idea came about.
 
Sid Graef: When you started, what was the vision?
 
Molly Moran: The vision was huge from the very beginning. I was living in San Diego at the time, had a sister here in Albuquerque, and we decided to start the business together. Albuquerque seemed like a friendlier place to start a business than California.
 
Very quickly realized we were better off as sisters than business partners. I got it going and I worked in the business—I cleaned. I wanted to know how to do everything. I didn’t have deep pockets. I was scrubbing toilets and waiting tables at the time—doing a whole bunch of things as I got it off the ground.
 
Sid Graef: What do you love about owning a business, and what could you do without?
 
Molly Moran: The biggest thing I love is freedom—in many senses. I get to structure and create my life how I want to. Now versus then, I can work from anywhere. I don’t need to be in Albuquerque to scale my business.
 
I love the potential—it can be smooth sailing, or I can turn the heat up and we can grow. I love making lots of money and spreading it around—money is a tool for trips and giving and security.
 
I also love the impact. With cleaning, we impact our staff’s lives—we provide fantastic jobs in a traditionally underpaid, underappreciated profession. We professionalize it, offer benefits, change the narrative around the profession. And the impact we have in the community and on clients.
 
Sid Graef: Did you have to fight uphill to change the perception and wages?
 
Molly Moran: When I first got into business, I didn’t know how to run a business. What I made was what was left at the end of the day. I remember sometimes my cleaners made more than I was making and I was like, “Something’s wrong.”
 
Eventually I got coaching and mentorship and restructured operations—what we were charging, how we paid staff—more expensive for the client but more professional and valuable service.
 
From a respect/professionalizing standpoint, I’ve always done that. Cleaning homes is about more than clean—it’s about the sanctity of a home and giving people time back to connect and play and do what they want.
 
Sid Graef: Your customer base is mostly residential?
 
Molly Moran: Primarily—about 95% residential. We used to be 50/50, but now we’re mostly residential.
 
Sid Graef: Do you have super fans?
 
Molly Moran: Yes. We have clients who’ve been with us forever. Some of them know me because I went and did their in-home estimate 15 years ago. They know who we are and what we stand for.
 
Sid Graef: What was a piece of advice that helped you early?
 
Molly Moran: Don’t diversify too much. Don’t add too many verticals. We clean houses—that’s what we do. I can refer other stuff out, but I’m not gonna take it all on.
 
A customer once said, “You’re already in our houses—you should do pet care.” And I was like, “You’re crazy.” There’s enough to do, enough money, enough impact if you stay the course.
 
Sid Graef: I relate—when you’re broke and hungry, you say yes to everything.
 
Molly Moran: Totally. On the commercial side early on, people asked if we strip and wax VCT, and I said sure. Next thing I know I’m on a machine spinning around in wax on a Saturday. We made money, but I learned: we don’t do this well—so we don’t do it.
 
Sid Graef: When did you realize you had something special and wanted to teach others?
 
Molly Moran: I got into a very specific house-cleaning coaching community around 2018. Before that, it wasn’t specific enough—people would say “you need systems” but not help with the how.
 
I hit burnout and thought, “I’ll invest massively in myself and the business—last hurrah. If it works, great. If not, I’ll quit and get a sales job.” I implemented hard, grew, and ended up coaching in that world for a bit. Eventually I went my own direction.
 
Probably four years ago I was like, “Oh wow—I can make a very good living and I’m working four hours a week on my company.” That felt like the dream.
 
Sid Graef: You’ve got 35-ish employees. Most home service owners never get past five or six. What were the biggest challenges to scale?
 
Molly Moran: Marketing and recruiting—balancing lead flow and staffing. It’s still imperfect, but we’ve gotten better.
 
I’m not afraid to spend on marketing for growth. I’ll take profit or my income and pour it into marketing at the beginning of the year to push us into the next level. It pays off.
 
Sid Graef: In your coaching now—what are the biggest pain points you see for established business owners?
 
Molly Moran: Profit—they’ve grown but they’re not as profitable as they could be. Freedom—they’re the bottleneck, they can’t turn their work brain off. Tech and work-from-home blur everything, so there’s no break. Then they start questioning: “What’s the point?”
 
It’s also cool how different it is now—people can get on YouTube, buy courses, and get step-by-step help with pricing, hiring, etc. That wasn’t there when I started.
 
I used to think, “I’m smart—why am I so dumb at this?” The purpose of business is to make money, and I wasn’t making money. I could’ve fired everyone and cleaned myself and made more.
 
Now I’m like: there are parts of business you don’t need to be creative on—some of it should be boring.
 
Sid Graef: How do you coach people out of being the bottleneck—mindset or tools?
 
Molly Moran: Both. I have a personal development curriculum paired with leadership curriculum. We start with the most pressing business challenges—often money. I’ll have them bring their P&L and we comb through what to cut and adjust so they can make more instantly—paired with mindset work.
 
Sid Graef: Do you do leadership development inside your own company?
 
Molly Moran: Not formally yet, but I’m developing pieces. I have a recorded course aimed at owners, but it can translate to managers/leaders too.
 
Sid Graef: I’ve shifted from thinking “I’m managing” to “I’m coaching.” I enjoy it more and it empowers people. Some owners fear training leaders because they’ll leave and start their own company—that’s scarcity mindset.
 
Molly Moran: Exactly. Shifting from managing to coaching has been massive for me too. It changes how I speak to people and what they bring back to the team. And I’m fortunate—my company has margin now, so people can learn and make mistakes. I’m not going back to day-to-day operations.
 
Sid Graef: How did your pricing evolve?
 
Molly Moran: We use a solo-cleaner model and a pay-for-performance type system. A core commitment is providing good-paying jobs, and that drives pricing. I start from: I want staff to make X, therefore we need to charge Y.
 
We constantly test pricing, limits, and conversion. We’re focusing heavily on weekly and biweekly recurring right now. Monthly is still sold, but prices are higher. We do surge pricing in high season sometimes. When we start hearing, “You’re way more than ____,” we stabilize. Higher pricing lets us adjust staff pay and do raises more often.
 
Sid Graef: What are principles you live by—personally and in the business?
 
Molly Moran: Our values at green sweep are kindness, integrity, community growth, and excellence (we recently changed it from professionalism to excellence).
 
I’m working on bringing more fun and play into green sweep. My coaching brand “Live Bright” stands for: bold, real, intentional, growing, healthy, thriving. Living bright also means honoring when you’re not feeling bright—it’s authenticity.
 
Sid Graef: Let’s shift to CleanCon. Why another event—why do we need it?
 
Molly Moran: The inspiration came from the Huge Convention and Cleaning & Cocktails—those events are amazing at connection, learning, and building real relationships. But they’re largely commercial-focused. There wasn’t a standalone event like that for residential cleaning owners that wasn’t tied to an expensive coaching program.
 
ISSA exists but residential is a tiny portion of it. We wanted something closer to the Huge/Cleaning & Cocktails feel, but only for residential. That’s CleanCon—Indianapolis.
 
Our tenants are connection, innovation, and education. It’s structured around residential cleaning company owners of all sizes.
 
Sid Graef: And Mike Michalowicz is keynoting.
 
Molly Moran: Yes. I read Profit First in 2018 and it was a turning point. I met him at an event last summer and when we started planning CleanCon, I reached out and we made it happen. His mission is to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty—and there’s a lot of that in our industry. I’m psyched to have him there.
 
Sid Graef: CleanCon is March 16th, 17th, 18th in Indianapolis, and it’s mycleancon.com.
 
Molly Moran: Yep—mycleancon.com. Ticket prices are meant to be affordable. And yes—hosting an event is a lot of work. We’re like, “What are we doing?” But it needed to be done.
 
Sid Graef: What’s the format—panels and breakouts?
 
Molly Moran: One keynote—Mike Michalowicz—and almost an entire morning with him. Then the rest is panels and masterminding. No breakout rooms for the first one—we’re keeping everyone together. The panels will be interactive and we’re building in other things so it’s not just sitting and listening.
 
Sid Graef: Last question: what challenge are you facing now, or a connection you’d like to make?
 
Molly Moran: Biggest challenge right now is still finding space—having room for chill and enjoyment, not just work, work, work—especially while operating at a new level across three businesses in massive growth mode.
 
Some weeks are crazier, like before going to Mexico for a meditation retreat. Every uplevel throws things off a little, so I’m figuring out how to operate at this level and protect space. I’ll think on the connection point—thank you for asking.
 
Sid Graef: Anytime you have a worthy project, there’s no end—like an infinite Instagram feed. You have to draw a line and turn it off so you can show up well for your spouse, family, community, and yourself. Work-life balance isn’t static—it shifts, like staffing versus marketing.
 
Molly Moran: Last year I had some health constraints—massive exhaustion. It forced hyperfocus. Even now that I feel good, I use that filter: focus on the biggest things. I’m trying to be home by five and be more present. Not perfect, but working on it.
 
Sid Graef: Thanks so much for your time and sharing. If you want to get in touch with Molly: mollymoran.com. CleanCon is coming up. Where can people find you on Facebook and Instagram?
 
Molly Moran: Facebook and Instagram: Molly Moran Live. And the podcast is The Live Bright Show—you can find it on my website, and it’s on Spotify, Apple, all the places.
 
Sid Graef: Awesome. Thanks again, and we’ll wrap it up.
 
Molly Moran: Thanks so much, Sid. What a pleasure.
 
Sid Graef: Hello my friend, this is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today’s episode. I hope you got some value from it. Anything that was covered—resources, books, tools—will be in the show notes so it’s easy to find.
 
I also want to let you know the mission for the Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help blue-collar business owners gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. We do that in four ways:
 
Number one is our free weekly newsletter called The Huge Insider.
Next is the Huge Foundations education platform—120+ hours of industry-specific education and resources, plus a monthly topical webinar and Q&A with seven- and eight-figure business owners. It’s available for a $1 trial for seven days.
Next is The Huge Convention—every August. This year it’s in Nashville, Tennessee, August 20th through 22nd, 2025. It’s the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders, with vendors, tools, world-class education, and the best networking opportunity in the industry.
Lastly, if you want to pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind—not for everyone. You’ve gotta be over $750,000 in revenue and building toward a million, five million, ten million in the next five years. It’s a network, mentorship, and mastermind of your peers, and we help you implement the Freedom Operating System.
 
You can get information on all four programs at thehugeconvention.com—scroll down and click on the Freedom Path—or find the links in the show notes.
 
And if you’d like to support the show, take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. It helps other people like you and me. Thanks again for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.