Huge Transformations

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Brandon Smith, a retired Army First Sergeant turned first-time franchise owner of M1 Epoxy Floors in the Nashville area. Brandon shares what it really looks like to jump into entrepreneurship after 23 years in the military—trading structure and support systems for the chaos of wearing every hat in a small business. From sales and marketing to installation, bookkeeping, and hiring, Brandon gives a raw, honest look at his first 18 months in business and how his military mindset—especially adaptability and resilience—has helped him navigate the pressure.
 
Brandon and Sheila also break down the realities of running a high-ticket, non-recurring service business. They talk about the challenges of cash flow, managing large project costs, learning financial forecasting the hard way, and why closing sales is critical when every job is a one-time opportunity. Brandon shares key lessons on hiring for character over skill, building an install team, and leveraging systems like CRMs to stay organized. They also explore how joining the Huge Mastermind shifted his thinking—especially around understanding market size, opportunity, and simplifying growth. It’s a valuable episode for newer entrepreneurs and anyone trying to turn early momentum into a sustainable, scalable business.
Resources
M1 Epoxy Floors
Veteran Service Brands
Housecall Pro
QuickBooks
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hello? Hello, listeners. It's Sheila Smeltzer, a plus Pro Services and huge transformations podcast contributor. I am very excited today I introduce an interview. Brandon Smith with M1 Epoxy Floors, who is an 18 month new franchise owner, franchisee owner, uh, who shares a lot of his new entrepreneurial experiences with us.
We talk about the good, the difficult, what we would do different. We talk about how his. Retired army, uh, experience has landed into his leadership skills and, uh, entrepreneur entrepreneurial skills, how he's wearing so many hats. We cover everything from tactical work and the details about epoxy floors, fixed revenue to recurring revenue.
We talk about wearing all the hats. Um, this is just an awesome, authentic interview that I know that all of our listeners will gain something from. Um, I really enjoyed getting to know Brandon today, and I thank all of you for listening. Let's dive in. Hello everyone, this is Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast and I have Brandon Smith with Mach one Epoxy Floris here joining us today.
Hey Brandon, good morning. Thank you for having me. I love this. This is gonna be super fun. Uh, Brandon is retired army sergeant and he is a first year franchise e owner of Mock One Epoxy Floors based outta West Nashville. And we're gonna have a lot of fun today and really insightful conversation about the correlation between your background and how, you know, your serving in the Army has helped you with, you know, starting as an entrepreneur.
Um, I love that you're pretty new in the entrepreneurial journey, so this is gonna be great. Um, and I, you know, I wanna first start and just get to know you, but Brandon, introduce yourself. Uh, tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and a little bit about Mach One. Okay. Um, so yes, I am, uh, just under 18 months business owner.
Uh, I bought a franchise Wan Epoxy. Um, we do operate in the greater Nashville area, Nashville West based. Um, I've been, like I said, I've been doing that for about 18 months, but prior to that I spent 23 years in the Army. I retired as a senior enlisted advisor or a first and a, uh, first sergeant. Um, over a counter drug task force.
Um. In that is vastly different, but a lot of the same, going from that role, transitioning to a business owner, um, a little more chaos in the, in the small business world, trying to manage all of the hats instead of having the supporting framework. But, uh, we're figuring it out. Um, I'm a father. I have two children, 11 and eight, grace and Madeline, and, uh, they're my other side of chaos.
So there's no rest. And I understand, I understand you're handyman to your wife as well. Yes. If there is a project I am responsible for doing said project, um, probably not the best at getting them done any, any timely, but, uh. We, uh, we do a lot. We live out here, uh, just south of Clarksville and north of Dixon in almost no man's land.
A little county of Houston County that, uh, has about 8,000 people in total. So we got a couple of stoplights that we don't really need. Uhhuh, it's quiet out here, but there's lots of projects. That's great. Well, she's lucky to have you, Brandon. Thank you. Thank you. So, wearing all of these hats, um, how has your experience and, you know, just 23 years in the Army, how, how, what are these skill sets that have helped you navigate, um, your 18 months, starting out with the franchise?
Well. In the military, we said a lot of things like embrace the suck. Mm-hmm. So when things got chaotic and it just wasn't going well and there's lots of regulations, there's lots of guidance, um, but sometimes things just don't fit in that framework. And being able to think outside the box and being able to, um, mold to the situation you're in has helped me tremendously.
Um, coming over to the entrepreneurial side and opening Mock one Epoxy, um, was exciting and fun is still exciting and fun, but it does not come easy. There's still a lot of stress. There's still, I am the salesman. I am the owner, I am the installer. I am the maintenance guy. I, I do all of the things. I do the bookkeeping and the manage our accounting and the accounting.
So. That's a lot. It is a lot. Um, yep. Been there and trying to make sure that you do it right. And I can tell you that, uh, there's, there's nights that I wake up and I'm still stressed about the business and stressed that, uh, I'm making the right decisions for us. But, uh, overall turning in here in our second year now, um, things are really looking up and business is going really well.
My employees are doing great. They're installing floors like crazy. And, uh, we're booked up for a couple of months. And I, I, I gotta say that, uh, that's not without the score of the huge, it's not without the score of the community that, uh, I'm in at Mach one or Better Service brands, but, uh, we're doing really, really well.
I love to hear that. Um, such a success on, on the, you know, coming out of the gate, it sounds like, um, Brandon, tell, tell me about hiring. So how did you. You know, uh, I, I do not, I'm not part of a franchise. Um, but how does that work when you're starting out? You've got a brand new location, um, you're the franchisee.
How did you know who to hire first? How did you know, how did you start filling in the roles? Roles, and what does, what is the size of your organization after 18 months? So, when I opened, my intention was to go slow. Um, I wanted to understand the business I, from, from the base level all the way up. So I wanted to install floors on my own.
I wanted to manage all the risk within my two hands. Okay. Um, I did that for about three months. My goal was to do it for a year, and after about three months, I realized that it was impossible. There's no way that I could turn a true profit, um, manage the entire business and go out and do floors.
Tennessee is a great place and Nashville is fairly, fairly metropolitan, so there is a lot of work there. But I was traveling a couple of hours to job sites on a daily, so I'm losing those couple of hours that the business needed for me or that I needed to work on the business rather. Um, so about three months in, I decided that it was time to start looking for a laborer.
Um, we put out an add or two. Um, I took a couple of interviews, had a couple of coffees. I'm not a, coming from the military, I've done a lot of boards that are very regimented and I've always found that anybody can study in passive board. You can, you can be prepared and seem as if you know what you're doing.
I like to have a conversation. I like to talk to people and really get a feel for who they are, especially if I'm gonna work with them or trust them on a daily basis. Sure. So I tend to take people to coffee. I tend to invite potential employees out for. On the job, uh, training or on the job, uh, interviews.
Let them put their hands on tools, talk me through their processes, and, uh, help validate some of their experience. Excuse me. Help validate some of their experiences. And, um, that has done me very, very well since I've opened the business. So we are, we have two employees now. Okay. I was very fortunate. My lead installer has about 20 years of experience in industrial epoxy work.
Wow. Great pickup. I, it's been fantastic. Um, I've got, I gotta, I gotta keep paying him more 'cause he is definitely worth it. But, uh, a fantastic pickup and has relieved a lot of stress on the installs, allowing them to go out and do floors without me standing and holding hands. But, um, I have a second employee who's a second year guy who's had some training prior to coming to me, but, um.
Was a high culture guy. He's, he's young, works hard, is honest. Yep. Yep. Shows up every day, communicates really well. Um, and I can say that after having somebody that's got the knowledge and capability to do the job, that my second highest criteria is having that, that moral, moral compass. Right. The people that are gonna be honest with you, even if they don't have the capability, you can train somebody to do a job.
You can't necessarily instill your culture and your morals in somebody that just doesn't have them. Yeah. And so that's my, uh, my install team. We've gone through a couple of laborers, um, in the last year trying to find the right set of guys. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we're continuing to grow and looking for other laborers currently.
But, um, that's kinda the process that I go through. I'm, I try not to stick to any one solid method. I'm really just trying to evaluate people for who they are versus what they can do, because we can teach 'em to do floors. Okay, great. So, um, you've, you've got a good operations team started. Um, how, how are you doing sales and marketing?
Oh, not well. Um, so love your, we have spent a lot of money on marketing. Um, fortunately the franchise has a primary company that we use for marketing, and they are, they're good. We are just learning how to employ them appropriately. Um, and so some of the ideas or processes we've tried have cost us with little to no reward.
But, um, this year we've kind of upped, we're in doing meta marketing and we're also doing Google marketing. Both of those things, I think we're a little around, right around $2,400 a month is what we spend, and we're starting to see the appropriate return on investment there. But I am consistently told, and I need to do a better job of.
Digital marketing is not the only platform. You need to find multiple avenues, multiple streams to get your, your brand out there to get your business out there. So doing home shows and doing community events, um, social media, all of those things are things that we could definitely improve upon. And that's gotta come with me having the time available to do it.
Yeah, very good. And this is something that, uh, we learn from the huge mastermind, is that we really wanna be focused on marketing over five to seven different channels, seven to 10 times per year. That's just a really good framework and um, you're right, it is, it is a lot. And then it's also knowing your market.
And where are the people that are buying your epoxy floors and being in those places and in front of them. Um, so good for you. So you get a lead coming in. So it sounds like you have some lead gen coming in from your meta and your Google, and you still have some work to do there, but when the lead comes in, who's doing the sales?
Is that you? That's me. That's me. I'm first contact. So, uh, speed to lead is, is my mantra right now. Trying to, as soon as that lead comes in, um, I don't make calls after 10 o'clock at night, but anything before that, I will pick up the phone and call that customer right away. Very good. The conversations vary.
It really depends on the customer and, and where they're at in their buying process. Mm-hmm. If, uh, if at all possible, I try to schedule an in-person interview, um, I go and I look at their concrete and, and do a true estimate, give them a price on the, on there, and I walk them through their process and why we're a better fit for what they're looking for versus, um, say a truck on the truck that's just operating on Facebook and no insurance and no technical expertise or shoddy material.
Um, but yeah, I'm the guy that, uh, manage it from start to finish. I hand them off to our lead installer, Fred, for the installation, but all the way up until the date of installation, they're mine. And then after installation, they're mine again for about a week or two while I go through a follow up process, search for a Google Review and make sure that we've met all of their requests and requirements.
Great. And then before we move on to that administrative part, because now you have to collect the money and make sure that the money's in the bank and the cash flow and all of that, um. Uh, just take me into the world of epoxy flooring real fast. 'cause I've always been very curious. What, what solutions are you trying to solve for your clients that are in search of floor coatings?
What, what are they looking for? What, what are the problems that they're experiencing that, that the epoxy? Sure. So I'll, I'll give you a couple of scenarios, a couple quick scenarios. Um, I would say residential wise, our primary customer right now is new construction. Nashville's booming. People are building houses left and right.
Um, they're building chops and pole barns and stuff like that. Okay. And what they're looking for is they're trying to get out in front of stains. They're trying to get out in front of chipping or, uh, concrete dust in their spaces. And so what we're coming in and doing is we're applying a resonance floor for them that allows, it's easy to clean, it's chemical resistant, it's not gonna fade.
Um. And it lasts essentially forever. I, we, we give a lifetime adhesion warranty, but we give a 10 year workability warranty. So if, uh, if they should scratch it or, or damage it in any way, we come back and we fix those things. Okay. Now on the other side is the older, um, floors or customers that are looking for a resurfacing.
Somebody that's either had a floor previously, they've done final tile or carpet or something like that in their home, or their garage has just always been a, uh, a concrete garage and it's stained up with oil and all of that stuff. So what we come in is we re rejuvenate the concrete by grinding off that top coat and applying epoxy to it, um, and basically bring their floor back to smooth.
We repair any cracks or divots, um, and provide them a brand new surface to, to live and operate on. Okay. Awesome. So. I come from, 'cause my company does primarily exterior cleaning, so it's like we're very focused on recurring revenue. So in an epoxy world and epoxy floor, um, you like, you are kind of like a one and done.
Right. Other than those go backs. So you have to generate a lot larger client base and you're constantly chasing new leads. What is that? What, what does that look like? Man, this is something that I didn't really discover or wrap my head around until about six months in. Okay. Within veteran service brands, there are several other, um, several other companies and a lot of them are reoccurring service.
Um. And so I didn't realize, I guess I just didn't contemplate it or realize that a lot of service industry depends really on reoccurring business. Mm-hmm. And uh, we don't really offer that. I mean, we offer it, but it's just, it's not gonna be in the next year or two. 'cause we provide a service that you don't need us again for 10, 15 years, sometimes more depending on what they're using it for.
Um, so I'll tell you, we are generating customers like crazy and if we stop, the business stops. So that's why marketing and understanding it, um, is so important. That's why sales are so important. When you get a lead and you're able to go out and do an estimate, if you're not able to close that job, if you're not able to close 50, 60% of the customers that reach out to you, you're gonna be in, in a bad way very quickly.
Yes. So we try and do our very due diligence to make sure the customer understands who we are, what we are, why we're a trusted entity, and why they want to use us versus using most other companies. Not to say that there's not, I mean there are other companies in our area that are very reputable and, and awesome and I have shared work with other companies, but, uh, there are also those customers that, uh, are looking for that cheapest price tag and they're playing a dangerous game with, uh, people that are just not gonna be there to support 'em when they really need it.
Yeah. So 'cause um, part of that sales process and that customer life cycle, it's like once they've come through and now you've done the work, you've followed up, you've got the review, you're ma ensuring their satisfaction, um, you're. Invoicing, you're collecting payment. Um, and is there, do you have anything in place from that point where you do some type of standard follow up a year, three years, four years, anything like that?
I don't currently. Um, however, so we are trying to, um, kind of split the business where we are service based for residential customers, but we are also do a lot of commercial work under general contractors and the like. Okay. Um, and we have some national accounts as well that, uh, we're building and, and using currently, um, with some of those national accounts, you have a lot more opportunity for reoccurring business.
Mm-hmm. We do a couple of oil change shops. Um, a couple of the larger oil change shops that are gonna require, 'cause those floors get beat up. They're gonna require floor refreshes every three to five years, um, in order to maintain slip resistance and maintain keeping that oil out of the concrete and all of those other places.
So we are kind of imposing those processes in, in commercial opportunities. Yep. But it's really hard in the residential area and so fortunately because we just finished up the huge just a couple weeks ago. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the things that I'm looking to do is include, uh, ceiling four driveways. It's a big need here in Tennessee in general because of the freezes and because of the weather.
And it's something that we didn't offer previous, but it's something that we can get reoccurring business every couple of years out of a, out of a basic seal. So the huge has helped me kind of design that and it's something that I'm looking to implement here towards the end of the year. Now the ceiling of the driveway is great.
Um, 'cause with any coating now epoxy is quite durable, like you said last, I mean really has lifetime usage. But on the exterior surfaces like a driveway, anytime you put down a coating, you have to maintain that coating. Correct? Exactly right. So here's the introduction to your recurring services. So what is the difference between the material you put down on the epoxy floor interior as compared to what you're putting down on the exterior driveways?
Uh, well, it's obviously not as durable, but it does seal the concrete so you don't have to worry about staining. You don't have to worry about, um. The concrete dust and everything peeling up. But what it does do is it allows that concrete to last an awful lot longer. Mm-hmm. It does, um, avoids any spills, chemical resistant, all of that stuff.
But it will need in, in the next three to five years, you're gonna have to come back over it, scratch it, and reapply another sealer to it. It just breaks down anything that you put. I mean, even epoxy, if you put epoxy straight out in the sun, it's gonna break down a lot faster than something that's shaded or protected from the elements.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Uv, sun, uh, the sun exposure, traffic, all of that sort of thing will break it down. Absolutely. Great. So I love that. So you're, you're identifying some recurring revenue opportunities. That's great. Um, so what has been the most difficult part in your first 18 months? Oh, um, I would say. I would say money management has been right, so we opened the business.
Um, I'm fortunate that, uh, I, I've retired from the military and kind of prop myself up. Financially my life is okay, but the business, there's all, with high ticket projects, there's a lot of risk. So when you're doing anywhere from three to $25,000 projects, um, especially when you're in the commercial realm where the payments are 30, 60, 90 day, um, payments, you don't have a, a lot of revenue coming in.
In spurts. So you have to be very aware and you need to be forecasting all of that money, making sure you're capable of making payroll, making sure you're capable of buying the materials for the next project and all of those things. And learning a system or devising a system that works for us mm-hmm.
Was something that I struggled with for the first couple of months, understanding how much money was gonna come in and when, versus how much money had to go out, both monthly overhead and project specific. Right. So we're talking cashflow, we're talking finance now. Um, do you have any experience in finance?
So, so what, what are you learning to do different? How are, how are you mitigating this? Well, I had absolutely no experience. Okay. Um, but what we as most of us don't, absolutely none. So it becomes a problem. And then we have to learn. I generally thought like, Hey, I'm good. I manage my own checkbook. I I pay my own bills.
Right? This is gonna be easy. No big deal. Oh, new level. Right. Oh man. Oh yeah. So there was some stressful times that, uh, we got tight, we did a lot of commercial work and I didn't forecast appropriately. And our, our business bank account got down into less than a thousand dollars over even just this winter.
Yeah. And it. And it's not because we weren't doing work or doing business, it's because I wasn't being strategic enough in the way that I did it. Mm-hmm. Um, so because of that, I've got a couple of working spreadsheets. There are, um, and actually I think the huge has a couple of, uh, things that they can provide that they provided to me.
But I've kind of developed my own between the franchises and a couple of different products that I've looked up. And so I've got a really good flow now that as long as I sit down and look at it once a week, I can make sure that I'm managing my bank account, managing the business appropriately from a financial perspective, um, as well as I'm working diligently and dig us out of a small SBA loan that, uh, is, holds us back, right.
We're spending that couple thousand dollars a month in, uh, overhead that. It shouldn't be there after we get it paid off, that'll, uh, free up hopefully a fair amount of money so that me personally can start making a decent amount of money with the business. Yeah, it, it's so true. I mean, the cash injections into when you're starting up, but even as you go along, when you hit those low points, it's very important to have access to lines of credit, um, to any type of cash investment that you can.
I mean, uh, myself and my own company, 26 years in business, I experienced a lot of this over the last year. And, um, so it, it doesn't really go away. And it is all about, you know, managing the cash, the cash flow, and, you know, I thinking about a budget, how do you, how are you predicting. And being predictive of your income, of your revenue.
When you're a young company of 18 months and all of your business is coming from new leads mm-hmm. What does that look like? Lots and lots of lessons learned. So we have gotten to the point now where we stay consistently booked anywhere from four to six weeks out, um, which is kind of the sweet spot for us.
Uh, we would like to be booked farther, but I've kind of discovered that people aren't willing to wait. Yep. Two months, three months to have a floor installed. So we try not to book too much farther out than that. Um, but in that we are forecasting those payments and forecasting that income, um, as well as.
Where we were using credit initially to kind of prop us up for material costs and whatnot. Mm-hmm. We are now kind of moving past that and we're starting to stockpile reserves in order to have an operational budget that doesn't require that credit injection on a regular basis. Not to say we won't get there 'cause we did in just the last couple of months.
But, uh, prior to that and, and thankfully we did, we had 20 or uh, 25,000, $30,000 in the account that just was able to float to us as necessary while we wait for payments. Um, but honestly I don't have the perfect answer yet. And only having a year to look back on, and that year was insane where I expected to do less than a hundred thousand dollars in business the first year and we did $350,000.
The first year it was a, a blessing and a curse. It was, it was trial by fire like I've never dealt with. But, uh, we're trying to take all of those lessons learned and all of those, uh, unnecessary expenses, or I don't wanna call 'em gambles, but you have to test things out. You gotta spend money on marketing that you're not sure is gonna work.
You've gotta buy equipment that you hope is the, the right answer, the right tool. Yep. Um, it's risk. Yeah. All of it. And then, and then of course, I've, I've dealt with Epoxy for fun prior to having this business, but I didn't have any real epoxy experience, so, yeah. Um, not that I broke floors, but I definitely spent more money in material that I didn't need to spend.
Mm-hmm. That, that ultimately cost me over the long run. And it's starting to pay off now 'cause my shop is finally starting to get dry of all the extra material I bought for fear of not having enough. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, it's all about, and we've all made these mistakes, you know, it's the same thing, different scenario, but it's really about what you do with the mistakes and how you learn and grow from them that counts.
And, um, so, you know, you're really off to a great start. Um, what, in your first 18 months, just kind of leaning into that, what would you do different? Um, I wouldn't have now with the experience, say I'm starting a new business today versus, uh, and, and taking all the knowledge and experience with me. Um. I certainly would've started a business, I probably would've gone to a different field.
Not that I don't love my business and don't love doing epoxy floors, 'cause I really do. But as a very first business owner, I wish I would've selected a business that had a little less risk. Mm-hmm. My project, right? I have to inject several thousand dollars into every project. So it's, it's a pretty high risk, it's high reward when it goes well, but it's hard to come up with that cash the first couple of months and make all of that stuff work.
So, um. I've talked with my wife about opening another business in the next couple of years. I'm sure I'll get stabbed for saying that out loud, but, uh, in the next couple of years, I would like to, but I, I, I'd like to probably adjust the field that we go into and be a little more cautious, um, and do a little more research on the, do a little more benefit analysis.
Um, 'cause I wasn't ready. I, I didn't, uh, I didn't quite understand and unfortunately I bought a franchise, which comes with a slew of support and guidance and I was gonna ask that. And I did get into the huge, which has been great, being around people that I want to elevate myself to that can help walk me through some of these pitfalls that I didn't see coming.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, if I had to do it again, I probably would've chosen a field that's, uh, a little less risk by the project. Mm-hmm. Um. And something that's, um, reoccurring, right? Reoccurring. So what are you envisioning? I would like to open a either pressure washing or a paint business here in the Nashville area.
Yeah. Paint. Paint in the southeast. Any type of exterior cleaning. Yes. Very, very needed. I mean, a, a 30 year paint from Sheron Williams is not 30 years. We know that. Of course not. Um, yeah. Excellent. And there's so much technology coming out, um, in all industry, which is phenomenal. I mean, we've got, you know, I was just watching a video last night on social media that, you know, we've got AI powered drones that you basically, they're, I mean, they are.
Painting. Mm-hmm. Experience of buildings. I mean, it's exciting, right? It, it really is exciting to see what, you know, where the future goes. Even in home services and commercial services, any type of, um, you know, maintenance industry. I think that there is so much opportunity there. Um, is what, what intrigues you about the painting?
Well, I, so within Veteran Service brands, we have a, a company called Paint Core. Um, they, I wanna say they have 30 or 40 locations throughout the us Okay. Um, all, all veteran owned again. Okay. Um, their business model is much different than Mock Ones is, so they do subcontract all of their painting work. Uh, of course the owners will go out and they'll help and they'll do some painting stuff, but they really use a subcontracting model.
Um, and they have a great method of selecting subcontractors. Um, so they maintain very, very high standards. And so essentially your, your risk is a lot less. 'cause you don't have to be the technical expert in the field, right. But if you have the sales capacity or capability and you have the tools, you can sell those paint jobs with ease.
Um, and fortunately when you, if you were to buy a franchise, you come with a mold to work in, you don't have to recreate the wheel. Um, and they're doing really well over there. And it's one of the things that Nashville is actually missing from veteran service brand's perspective. Yeah, the subcontract contracting model is very interesting.
Um, I've, I've kind of shifted my mindset on it because I used to say. You know, I know that I have a lot of competitors that 10 99, they're employees. Mm-hmm. And I don't believe that they're doing it lawfully. I believe that, you know, these 10 99 subcontracted, uh, W nine employees are probably not properly insured.
Um, they're probably, you know, they're sticking a magnet on their truck and now they're part of their company, they're going and doing the work, but they probably, even if it's just an owner operator that's just a single person, they probably don't have work comp or a ghost policy on themselves. Mm-hmm. So there's that.
Um, you know, do they have their own equipment? Are you providing it for them? So, I think there's a lot of things that are going wrong with subcontracting, but I also think that there's companies that are doing it right. Absolutely. We know that the, so there's a lot of risk in that first part, but, you know, we know that, you know, we.
Managing payroll, payroll expenses, payroll taxes, the full liabilities that come with payroll, um, the workers' comp, all of that creates a huge amount of cost to a company. Um, and I've always said like, oh, I'm gonna do everything by the book and I'm gonna make sure and da da da, and it's cost did. And so, but what I see now is very strong and modeled companies doing most of their work is subcontracted out.
They're doing it the right way and they're making a larger profit off of that because they don't have all of these other expenses within the company. Um, we know cost of labor and cost of goods is, you know, especially in any type of service, 'cause we're selling labor, right? Mm-hmm. And you have a lot of materials in what you do.
Um, and with painting, there's probably a lot of material involvement as well. But labor's expensive. Very. So yeah, I, I think you're onto something and it sounds like Pink Core has got it figured out pretty good too. Yeah, I think the proper vetting of sub co subcontractors and having a solid subcontractor agreement is essential.
Um, so yeah, it'd be really fun as you kind of explore that, bringing it back to the huge community and letting us know what that looks like, because I think that's opportunity for all of us. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it's something that I'm exploring, something we're working with. I mean, um, veteran service brands would love it, that they would love me to open every different brand that they have here.
I can only afford to do so much upfront, but Right. Yeah. It's something that I'm kind of excited about, but I wanna make sure that I've got Mach one really locked on and, and we're, we're really getting there, but something that I can set aside and allow it to basically run on its own for the most part.
Yeah. Before I move on to something else, um, but I'm glad you brought up insurance. Insurance is a, a big thing that, uh, is. As, as a new business owner that you think that you understand, you come in, you know, you've gotta get some workers' comp, you know, you've gotta get a general liability. There's a lot of, a lot of basics that, uh, people think that they understand.
Man, the insurance world blew me away. I had no idea, I had no idea when I started doing some commercial work that I was gonna be required to have an umbrella policy. I don't even know what umbrella policy was. Right. And then the different levels of requirements. I, I've, I've invested maybe a quarter of a million dollars to get my business up and running, um, to date.
Mm-hmm. And I'm covered for, I have to be covered for $5 million per event. Right, right. I'm just, I'm putting epoxy on a floor. I'm not lighting fires or it, it is wild. Um, and then one of the biggest lessons, and I, I literally learned it yesterday. I'm sure somebody told me, I'm not saying nobody informed me, but I got an email that said, Hey, you gotta do your insurance audit.
Mm-hmm. Insurance audit, honey. Fun. Welcome. So, like, so I called, um, our company and they were very, very nice and polite and explained to me, okay, Brandon, you have an insurance policy. You forecasted you were gonna do this type of business for this long and you were gonna make, generate this much revenue with these employees.
Okay. Yeah. I didn't do any of that. Absolutely not. I'm, I'm way beyond what I forecasted. Right. And they're like, okay, we're just letting you know that you're probably gonna have a supplemental insurance bill. Okay. What does, what does that look like? Well, we did three times as much as I forecasted, and we have two employees and I plan to have no employees, so I'm.
Impatiently waiting. Currently for my supplemental insurance bill, that should be here probably today or tomorrow is gonna be a couple thousand dollars that I'm not gonna like writing the check for. But it was one of those things that I just, I. I didn't know, didn't, didn't think about. Yeah. And, uh, I hope that somebody hears this and goes, you know what?
I should pay attention when they say audit 'cause it might come back around. Yep. Proper, you know, record keeping payroll is so crucial and the way that we report it, um, you know, with work comp you have different class codes that your employees fall in. So your technicians are a different class code than your administrative staff or sales and things like that.
And it's a different rate per $100 of payroll that you, that you pay them. Um, the higher risk comes in and when you have accidents and claims and things like that, your rate per 100 goes up. Yeah. And when you're safe and you don't have accidents or any claims, then your rate. Can stay or sometimes they're cool and they drop it.
Um, but yeah, these are all very tricky things and you know, for those that are listening that work at Height, um, I know that we have great equipment out there that allows us to work safely from the ground, but it is inevitable that we have to get on ladders or do any type of rooftop work or whatnot. And it's extremely important.
The one tip that I can share with any listeners, um, that's kind of been gold for us is we actually try to designate employees that do the work at height. And we, we have a way that we're showing that on the invoice side because, and then also on the payroll side, so that when we get audited, we're only paying that higher rate, that class code for those employees doing that work, the ones that are working from the ground, we're keeping those at that lower rate.
So talk to your insurance. Um. Uh, agent and make sure that they really give you the ins and outs about how you can use effective reporting to, you know, be prepared for when you get these audits. Um, because it can save you thousands and thousands of dollars. Yeah, I, and epoxy is still somewhat of a, a. Not a brand new, but it's definitely growing quickly.
So a lot of these insurance companies, we, and, and even in the contractor world, we don't fit into any of their classification codes very well. Mm-hmm. We don't fit in with painting, we don't fit in with general construction. So it's, it, it's been a pain to figure out exactly where we're gonna fit in appropriately and make sure that we're insured appropriately.
'cause the last thing I want is to have an accident, find out that I'm either underinsured or not. Right. Um, I wanna make sure that our guys are taken care of and, and more so our customers. I don't want anybody to have concern that they've got, that they're owning liability that they shouldn't. Mm-hmm. Um, so we are definitely over-insured in a lot of ways, but, uh.
Thankfully because of the commercial work we've done, it's been a requirement. And so I'm, I'm, I go to sleep at night not worrying about that. Yeah, sure. I'm a little worried about an extra tax bill or an extra insurance bill that's coming, but uh, right. As far as us being insured, I'm not. Well that's okay because you know, now you know you're building history, you know, you're starting out and, you know, it really takes the first three years of history to really.
Get you to a point where you can look back and then become predictive about how to budget and plan for your next year and what to, you know, have your, um, premiums set at and things like that. And your insurance company'll help you do that. But, you know, this is just all part of the growth phase and, you know, you're doing a lot of great things, Brandon, I gotta tell you.
Yeah, I, I'm very impressed. They, they were very quick to tell me, Hey, the first one's always the hard one. You'll be okay after that. Just get through the first one. You'll be all right. Yeah, you will. And they'll walk, they'll walk you through it. Okay. They'll walk you through it. Um, so, uh, what kind of systems are you running in your business?
Uh, systems, how well you say systems, and I think of flooring systems. So I can talk you through some, some technical flooring stuff, but I don't think that's what we wanna talk about. So, um, communication systems, how your, like what does your CRM look like? Um. Uh, how you know are, so Yeah. QuickBooks. So you're using QuickBooks online, so I guess internal software systems.
Mm-hmm. Okay. So we have a couple of different systems we use to manage the business. Um, primarily our CRM is House Call Pro and Okay. They are great. Um, because we're part of a franchise, we get kind of front of line access to support, which is great. Um, as well as we've been able to help, uh, initiate some changes on their platform to, to benefit the epoxy world.
'cause currently there's not a CRM that really recognizes a epoxy as a, uh, as a service. So you can, I think Housecall Pro was set up for heating and air conditioning, so you can see how it all kind of fits that world. Yep. Um, and so we've been able to make some adjustments there. I use that system. For 75% of the business.
It manages our leads, it manages some of our sales and allows me to pull reports on how I'm doing in that realm. It manages the projects, the estimates. Um, I have built out checklists in there so both of the employees can see the checklists and they can go through the process to make sure that I, I get the information I need from every project as well as they're meeting, they're telling me via checklist that they are meeting my standards of work.
They're doing all the things that I say are a must do on every project. Um, it, I'm gonna stop you on Housecall Pro. We just converted two Housecall Pro from ServiceTitan. It was, it has been painful, but, um, do you use what's called pipeline? Yes, HealthPRO. Perfect. Great. Yeah, we're just, we're just getting that launched and I'm excited to use that.
Um, but you wanna talk about pipeline a little bit 'cause Absolutely. We talk about the lead gen and following the lead and the 50 60 conversion and all of that. So we have pipeline, uh, locked in with our marketing company. So every time a lead is generated, it does go into pipeline and pipeline sees the lead, it populates it into a bucket, uh, a digital bucket.
And it notifies me that there's a lead there. Gives me the opportunity to go in and, and either call the customer, text the customer through house, call pro or through my phone and populates some notes. At that point in time, if you don't get a customer either on the phone or you're not able to secure an estimate or the customer.
It is just hard to get ahold of. You can move either into another bucket or you can set automations where it automatically moves to another bucket and Housecall Pro will automatically start reaching out to that customer based off of the parameters, the timing, and the types of communication that you want.
Um, we use a three step process. So after 72 hours, if we have not touched that lead, or if the lead has not communicated, um, with the system, it'll generate an email. And then after that, it'll send a text message. And then after that, it'll make a phone call and it'll do that over a two week period before it deems that lead lost or, or no longer functional.
Um. So we track those. And what's nice about it's that it does provide a report. You can pull out a report at any point in time and evaluate your system and, and whether your timing is working or not working, or if the communication that you've automated in there is the right communication and feeding and generating customer response, or if it's just falling on deaf ears.
Yep. Um. So it's really a, a huge help, especially from a guy that's doing all of the things. Sometimes I just can't get to the leads on a daily basis, and sure, I should be calling every lead and sometimes I just can't. And fortunately, housecall Pro at least gives us a chance and sends a text message right away, and then it'll follow up in 72 hours.
Um, I can tell you that it's probably, uh, I wonder if I can pull the report, but I, I think that it, in the last week, it's generated two jobs. Nice. Out, out of just thin air. Right. Awesome. Yeah. So yeah, this is the system, you know, systemizing the sales process and automating it. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm glad you shared that a little bit with us and, um, yeah, house Call Pro has been great.
I know there's a lot of other CRMs out there. We're not trying to do a big plug for House Call Pro right now, but you and I do have that in common. Yeah. So that. There's a lot of CRMs out there, and, and I know that there's a lot of 'em that are great, and I'm not saying Housecall Pro is necessarily even better than any of the others.
Of course. The one thing that I've absolutely heard, without a doubt from multiple owners, it's the transition from one CRM to the other that is the bane of everybody's existence. So everybody's very fearful of going from one platform to the other. 'cause getting all their information transitioned is terrible.
How was yours? I can't even go there.
I mean, you know, I'm a 26 year company with, you know, over 7,000 clients and you're talking about so much data history. Oh. Um, from photographs to, you know, just account details and notes and Oh my gosh. Um, I will tell you one thing, and this is something that, uh, I could help maybe somebody prevent. So like with Housecall Pro, you have phone numbers.
That and you have multiple phone numbers that you can utilize for different marketing campaigns or whatnot. In ServiceTitan, you could generate a a phone number for every single marketing campaign that you did so that when they used that phone number and called in, you could track the ROI on that specific campaign.
Great. We had over a hundred phone numbers when we were using ServiceTitan and when we transitioned to House Call Pro. Only six of them ported over. Oh no. So we have thousands of customers with phone numbers. Now can they go online and just Google search us and find our current phone number? Of course they can.
But the age demographic of these clients, really, they probably have it like written on a business card on their refrigerator or in their phone as a contact, and they're calling and unresponsive. And, um, this has been extremely challenging. And so anyway, like there's so many things that you couldn't even dream this stuff up that it's gonna happen to you, right?
Um, but not to go through a whole problem solving process, but could you, um, with the information and knowing what customers were reached, could you set up a campaign to reach out to all those customers and offer 'em, like, Hey, we've changed our phone number, but we wanna make sure you have a good current number and here's a 10% coupon for your next service.
Yeah, we're marketing it hard. You know, all of these same clients, of course, we're email marketing to and doing text campaigns and things like that, so we're reaching them slowly but surely, uh, the timeliness of it being the brink of spring and that's when the most phone activity happens, um, is not good.
Um, but the problem is, is that these phone numbers were kept alive. Meaning when customers were calling these phone numbers, it didn't go right. Yeah. It was Sheila Selta's voice saying, Hey, this is a plus pro, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were leaving us a message and, um, we have had not, not had success recovering those messages from ServiceTitan.
Oh. Um, and, you know, not trying to spread bad news about ServiceTitan, I'm just saying that, you know, the, to me that they're sitting somewhere on a server and I would, I would do anything to have them. Um, but we're having to pivot. I'm still trying to work with them. This is all very new, but yeah, it's, it's been, it's been very tricky, but there's, yes, you're right.
Going back to switching software platforms, um, I try to think about, you know, choose one that is gonna take, like, if you can envision the, the. The most capacity of your company and what the needs are gonna be with A CRM and get one that is gonna serve all the way through, like what you envision the largest, you know, size of your company would be.
Um, because you're right. You don't wanna change. Yeah. You don't wanna change. And sometimes we have to. Um, but you know, it's, it, it is, it is very difficult. Thank God I have a really good team that we've all, I mean, this has been all hands on deck for like four months doing this. It's been crazy. I believe it.
I believe it. Well, I hope you're happy with Housecall Pro. I hope it We are. Yeah, we are. It's all of the needs. I mean, I, I inherited 'em. I don't know any other CRM. Um, they came with the franchise and, but at the same time, they've been extremely helpful and extremely moldable to our business. Yep, they are.
Um, I've been really spoiled with reporting on ServiceTitan, and I am starting to learn how to utilize reporting much better in Housecall Pro. I'm, I love to geek out on reports and, um, they really tell you everything that you need to know and where you need to focus. Um, so data is king and so yeah, I'd say all, all in all, it's been a very good experience.
Um, so Brandon, you're, you just joined the huge mastermind. Last year. Correct? That's correct. Great. And how did you hear about the huge, you know, how, what, what brought you into the huge just come to convention the first time? Another perk of being a franchisee. Um, I, our C-O-O-J-S Barry reached out to me and said, Hey man, um, there is a huge convention.
And of course he said, huge convention. I'm like, okay, there's huge conventions all the time. No, no, no. The huge convention Uhhuh was in Nashville. I'm like, okay. So I did a little research and they're like, and he called me back and said, Hey, I got you a ticket. You need to go. I'm like, well, my was that optional?
He said, no, no, no, no. You don't have to go, but you need to go to this site. And so we went. Um, he actually joined me and we got to meet a slew of other service-based home o um, home business operators. Yep. And it was great conversation, just being in the area and seeing what was available. Um. And then we got sold.
He and I both got sold on joining the huge and he's like, man, this, this seems great. I know you're really new. Will you do this? And he actually offered to, um, cover the first three months of the huge, he's like, Hey, if, if it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work. And I will, we'll find a way to break it off and, and we'll cover the cost.
But go to the first three months. I can tell you when I showed up to the huge, I brought my wife as a guest for the first one. And uh, after we were done, we were driving home and both of us were like, I. I like to pride myself on being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with most people and at least understand what's going on.
Man, I was in a room with people that were so far beyond me in some, in all the good ways, right? You wanna surround yourself by the people that are, are where you want to be. Sure. And I was in that room and I was awestruck by both franchise or entrepreneur owners that were doing great things and they were sharing information and they were going through, they were, I was able to talk where I was at and they're like, oh yeah, you just need to create a couple of SOPs and generate, and they were taking such, what I considered hard problems and providing such simple solutions.
And I was just in awe of like, how come I couldn't think of that? And being in that community now, um, over the last six months has been fantastic. I love that. So when you say, um, first of all, I love that you used the word simple because simplifying. The first of the five leadership abilities. And the more that we can simplify and you starting out in your first 18 months, the more you can keep things simple, the more you'll be able to gain that hands-off business.
I'm learning this after all my years. I, I've, I, consequently I've built a pretty complicated entity and now I'm scaling back. I'm trying to simplify. And so, you know, when you're getting started, I would say yes. Thank you for saying that because, um, keeping it simple, keeping it simple, stupid they say, but keeping it simple is really gonna help you, uh, create that entrepreneurial life that you dream of.
Yep. Absolutely. Um, so when you say you joined the huge, uh, you mean that you joined the huge mastermind? Yes, yes. Okay, awesome. And so, um, yeah, I, I love it. What, just gimme one nugget. Like what is one thing? 'cause you were at this recent one in Nashville that was just this past month. I actually missed the one this last Oh, you did?
Okay. I, I watched recordings and, and, and did the homework and everything, but I was, um, I was out of town in California at the time, but, um, yeah, the dokey recordings were great, weren't they? Absolutely. Yeah. The, I can tell you hands down, the biggest takeaway that I've had since I've been there is understanding your market, um, going through the process and evaluating what is out there versus what you're doing.
Yep. Um, completely changed my mindset. I was looking at the market from a perspective of I get a small slice. Because I'm the new guy, I get a small slice of this market that is, it's got 25, 30 other concrete coating companies in it. Um, and I've got hard competition to, to grow. Mm-hmm. Until we sat down, I, I believe it was our first, uh, our first get together.
We sat down and went through and evaluated the market in, in our area and, uh, Sid gave us the, the algorithm and said, Hey look, this is what you need to do and you need to focus on being the biggest fish in the smallest spawn. So find the area that you wanna work and you wanna focus on and, and do the math.
Figure out what that market looks like. I was blown away. Uh, there, there is a billion dollar industry, um, overall in Nashville between commercial and residential. And it's gonna continue to grow in the next 10 years because of the influx of people coming to the Tennessee area. And it. There's no way all of the concrete coating companies that are out there, and I can keep up with it.
So there is a market that we can get to. And I was fearful that I was gonna run out of work or I wasn't gonna be able to generate enough work. And now it's, I was able to turn that completely around on myself and look at it from the perspective of, I'm the one that's holding us back. I need to do marketing, more marketing, I need to do more sales.
It's not that there's not work out there, I just gotta go find it. Right. Yeah. And, um, this is, this is really big and I would, I I, I agree with you that, uh, being part of the mastermind, um, understanding my market, how to be the big fish in the small pond, um, and doing that market analysis and the way that, the way that I've applied it in my company and that, you know, the Mastermind has taught us is, you know, so like for example, my current market, I know that my.
My customer avatar is residential homes. Yes, we do commercial as well, but let's just stay on residential. Residential homes valued 600,000 and above. Great. Now I gotta figure out how many of those are in my market. Okay? Now there's this huge number of houses, 600,000 and above. Now, what's a realistic market share percentage that I think that we can, that we can get, right?
So let's say 10%, 12%, 20%, whatever. Whatever you think. So now you have this number. Great. What is your average ticket? That tells you how much revenue you can generate in that current market. And you know, then they go on to teach you like, okay, now how do you, how do you get that market? Yeah, yeah. Now you know, it's there.
Whatcha gonna do about it? Yeah. Stay tuned. Um, but so yeah, it's gold, right? It's gold. Absolutely. I, it was mind blowing. And that was our, our very first, uh, our very first mastermind that I attended and there was a couple other, um, new guys in there as well. And all of us were, we just, we never looked at it from that perspective.
We'd always looked at it from what we can do right now and not from what's out there and available. And it, it's a game changer for sure. Yeah. And it is very simple. And the same principles apply for a new Chick-fil-A that's coming into a market then, you know. A plus pro that's trying to grow in a current, you know, little coastal market, right?
Like it, the same, same business principles apply and it is a very, um, simple framework that we're, you know, uh, that we're learning while in the huge community. So yeah, thanks for sharing with that and um, I'm excited to meet you virtually, but now I get to meet you in person, Brandon, and it's been lovely to get to know you.
Yeah, thank you for taking the time. This was a lot of fun. Yeah, I, I am, I love your story and I think a lot of things I really appreciate, appreciate you being honest and, you know, sharing your struggles with our, with our listeners. Um, I think that's really important and I know that there's people that are listening that are gonna say, oh, yeah, okay.
Uh, that's very helpful. Um, they're gonna help them avoid making the same mistakes or just knowing like, okay, I need to, I need to be paying attention to these things. So if we can help avoid any of those problems with this huge transformations podcast, that is what we are looking to do. We wanna help entrepreneurs and their entrepreneurial journey and, uh, thank you Brandon for sharing your story with us today.
I love it. Thank you. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the used Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. It as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Jeff Scott, a second-generation window cleaner from Wisconsin and the owner behind Green Window Cleaning, Green Building Maintenance Services, and Safety Green Training. Jeff shares how he started his company from scratch in 2009 after walking away from his family’s business sale, knocking on doors with little more than basic tools and experience. From there, he built a company that now leans heavily on recurring commercial work while also becoming deeply respected for its expertise in rope access, high-rise safety, and training. 
 
Jeff and Sheila also go deep on something that rarely gets enough attention in home services: safety as a real operating system, not just a checklist. They talk through rope descent systems, SPRAT and IRATA training, rooftop risk, job hazard analyses, documented compliance, and the difference between doing dangerous work and doing skilled work safely. At the same time, Jeff opens up about rebuilding his company after major staffing losses, creating stronger culture, empowering his team, and stepping back into growth mode after years of living more passively. It is a sharp episode for service business owners who want to think bigger, lead better, and build a company that is both profitable and professionally run. 
 
Resources
Safety Green Training
Green Window Cleaning
Green Building Maintenance Services
Jeff Scott on LinkedIn
Jeff Scott / Safety Green Training on Facebook
The Go-Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann
Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention
The Freedom Path
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in.
The industry folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses and they want to help you succeed. Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience.
0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship.
Let's dive in.
Hi, I'm Sheila Smeltzer with the Huge Transformations Podcast. Thank you for joining us today. I have a really special and unique interview with Jeff Scott. Uh, Jeff and I are longtime industry friends and colleagues, and we're gonna take it a little bit different today. We're gonna go a little bit different route and we're gonna be talking about.
Yes, business. But we're also gonna be talking about high rise rope descent, rope access, safety audits, OSHA compliance, um, building JHAs residential rooftop safety. Um, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna get into Jeff Scott's head because he is a second generation window cleaner from Wisconsin. Uh, he was brought up in the high rise world, and this guy's got, um.
He's got level three spr, um, training. He's, he's a wealth of knowledge when it comes to building access and safety training, so this is super cool. This is totally my thing. I love talking about this stuff and, uh, we're gonna bring it to you here. I hope you enjoy this podcast. Stick around and join us. Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer. And today we have a super cool, uh, show because this is like a long time friend of mine, Jeff Scott. Hey Jeff. Hey Sheila. How you doing? I'm doing great. Uh, Jeff Scott is, uh, safety Green training. Also Green Building and maintenance services, green Building Maintenance services.
Uh, also green window cleaning, which is residential company. Mm-hmm. Um, and Jeff, you and I have known each other for probably 18, 16, 18 years. God, that seems like a long time. It's true though. Um, I think we, we met originally through the IWCA. Um, Jeff is a second generation window cleaner. Um, you started as a window cleaner and now you have your companies, I mean, you are, um.
Like when you say that you're a window cleaning professional, you have absolutely excelled in that. You've got your high rise expertise all the way down to your residential. This is gonna be a super fun conversation. Jeff, you wanna tell our audience about yourself? I can. Um, well, I'm Jeffrey. Hello everybody.
Um, hello, Jeffrey. Um, I've been a window cleaner most of my life. I have stepped away from it from time to time to do some other things. I spent a long time in sales. But, um, I was kind of a late bloomer. I started my company up in, I guess it'd be oh nine. I think I was like 37. Um, so what is that, 17 years ago?
Probably a little longer than I, or not quite as long as I've known Sheila. Yeah. Um, I think I met you Sheila through my father. Yeah. Kent. Yeah. And uh, you know, I think the first time I met you was probably in Oconomowoc. Ah. Um, at one of the window cleaner picnics that Gary Mauer used to put on. That's going way back.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we were talking about timeframe, but I think that locks it into when we had met, uh, we had a mutual friend, um, at that time. Yep. Um, but, um, yeah, so that takes, that takes us back. So yeah, I started up in oh nine, um, without a dime in my pocket. Um, but I did have a lot of experience at the time.
Okay. Uh, just knocking on doors, walking up and down the street. Can I clean your windows, you know, into residential? Yep. And, um, so I mean, but your dad, and so tell me, it was Madison window cleaning, right? Right. No, no, no. He was, he was bright way window cleaning. Um, they started up in central Wisconsin.
Right when. Okay. And then, man, I think it was the late eighties, started moving down into the Madison area. Okay. Okay. Started getting on ropes slightly before then. Uh, just in the central Wisconsin area, running a, a spider stage before that. Um, but then, uh, yeah, I think it was the late eighties. They hired a salesman finally and started pushing into the Madison area into some mid-rise work.
And then, um, they sold in, I think it was oh oh eight. Okay. Um, and it was kind of a, a shock, you know, to every, it was, it was kind of a secret sale. Nobody knew about it until it happened. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So at that time, I didn't want to go to work for the new owners. Uh, it was bought by a company called, um, jacks Maintenance.
Okay. Uh, which was a large janitorial company outta the Fox Valley, which is basically runs from Green Bay down towards Madison. Okay. Um, and they, you know, they did the right thing. It was a goodbye for them. Um, you know, uh, Ken to my father sold very well. Um, we don't really even hear about sales of that capacity anymore, what he got for it.
Um, but um, yeah, uh, when I walked out the door, um, I had to do something. I still had a bucket of moping. The squeegee went and bought a little giant ladder. So did you go from the high-rise working with your dad to residential because of like non-compete? Uh, no, I didn't have a non-compete. Okay. Um, so why did I did that?
Because I didn't have the money to buy, you know, high-rise equipment. Okay. Um, I didn't, I didn't have a staff, you know, I couldn't go do it on my own. Um, when I started up, I basically didn't know how I was gonna, how I was gonna feed my daughter, who was five at the time. I didn't know how I was gonna, I didn't know how I was gonna pay the mortgage.
I didn't know how I was gonna make the car payments, you know? Mm-hmm. So I just kind of went back to being a little kid and knocking on doors and walking up and down the street. Love it. So, um, green window cleaning today. What's the size of green window cleaning? What's it look like? Um, well we're kind of a three-headed beast with the green building Maintenance services, green window cleaning services and safety green training.
Mm-hmm. Um, we're probably. 85% large commercial contracted work. That's all recurring revenue. Um, which leaves about, you know, 10 to 12% residential and then safety green training's really kind of a side project. Yeah, that's, what's that? That's you, that's you. I've got, um, two other trainers. Okay. All right. Um, one that, you know, my, my.
Rope access trainer. He's RET certified. He's uh, a climbing gym trainer. Um, he's, uh, a lead trainer for Boulder's Climbing Gym, which is here in Madison. And then he does like a lot of excursions out to Devil's Lake and trains people out there. So he's got a lot of aptitude. Uh, and then we also have a young woman who is our aerial lift operator trainer.
Um Okay. And does all of our in-house stuff and does some stuff like an add-on for our classes as well. But safety and green training, we keep priced as economical as possible. Um, we have to keep it sustainable, but that's really how we give back to the industry. Love that. I love that. Um, so do you have, just like from business structure standpoint, you, it is like one company, but these are three different business units?
Yes. Right now it's, it's still, you know, we were, we've, we've dropped into one LLC, um Okay. And everything. The other two are DBAs. Okay. Um, we are separating our CRMs at this point. Um, but, um, we'll see what happens, you know? Um, we're keeping it all. Safety green will get broken off here in the near future as, 'cause everything else is getting so much bigger.
Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, I'm probably looking at a company sale within the next, if, if I'm, if I still own it four years from now, I'd be surprised. Okay. Yeah. Very good. So I'm assuming that's what's kind of brought you back into the huge community and being in the huge mastermind. Yeah. Yeah. I was living, you know, I'm 52 years old.
Okay. Um, I've been living passively off the company since I was about 45. Um, and, uh, we talked about this before we got on, but I was spending a lot of time at my place out in Breckenridge, Colorado. Mm-hmm. Um, and staying out there November through April and just snowboarding, um, my ass off. I was getting 50 to 60 days in a year religiously chasing storms all powder days.
Um, but then, you know, networking with people that we both know, I won't drop their names on here, but, um, they're like, Jeff, what are you doing? Look at what you have. Like, everybody's coming to you for information. Why aren't you doing this? You could scale this, you know, beyond what you could ever dream of, which is true.
Which is true. So, you know, finally one of those slaps in the face got to me. Yeah. And I started taking a look at it, and then I'm like, you know, what am I doing out here playing in the snow when I could, you know, if I spend another, you know, five years, um, dedicating to this, it turns into something absolutely life changing beyond what I ever dreamed it could be.
I love that. Yeah, I love that. Um, so yeah, just, uh, we've definitely got the Breckenridge thing in common as well. Um, yeah, I was a Bret girl for six years back before I did any of this. Um, and so were you dog teams or something? If I remember right. Yeah. Yeah. I was a back country tour guide. Yep. Tours, dog sled tours, snowmobile tours.
That was my outdoor tour. Sleigh rides and that stuff. Fricking loved it, loved every minute of it. And Jeff and I actually connected at Wolf Creek Pass. We went snowboarding like five or six years ago. So yeah, we've, we've had some fun times together, that's for sure. Um, so. You're now, so you went on your big high country life excursion for five years, and now you're back in, um, Wisconsin.
And what are you doing, like, what's your day-to-day look like right now? Um, I'm kind of a, you know, I'm probably in the office between seven and 8:00 AM most mornings. Um, I'm here 90% of the time. Um, I'm usually outta here by three or four o'clock. Mm-hmm. In the afternoon. Um, but um, right now it's, um, doing a lot of the top end stuff.
Uh, we had our busiest off season ever carried more admin staff through the off season than I ever have. Uh, really realigning our tech stacks. Um, getting a lot of systems in place, setting the org chart up properly. Um, looking at moving some people around that we're in the process of now. Um, taking my office manager, turning her into a vp.
My CSRs moving into a general. Manager style role, um, got a customer's relations person, um, been building a sales program. You know, believe it or not, we've gotten to where we are without a dedicated sales program, um, without really even marketing at all. Um, it's just been a lot of word of mouth working our way through property manager groups, relationship building the old fashioned way.
So, you know, we're really excited because we've got some growth ahead of us. Yeah. It sounds to me like you're, you're recreating your operating system pretty much. Um, we had, we were doing pretty well. We were systemized fairly well. Mm-hmm. But we bottlenecked, um, you know, we, um, so through COVID was a really hard time for us, just keeping everybody busy, right?
Mm-hmm. Uh, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, um, large projects would get moved off. We'd have to find other things to do, and we managed to hold our staff. Entire staff and keep 'em busy through COVID. However, uh, within a year after COVID, because of a whirlwind of storms, um, we lost everybody. Hmm. Um, I got my admin team, but I didn't have a single operational person.
Mm-hmm. So, and that was one of the, the highest stressors I had. Um, I had to jump back in the field, be hands-on again. You know, which I had already. It was hard to transition out of that. Transition back in was hard to find passion for it. Mm-hmm. And grow, grow as a leader at the same time, um, was really hard.
But there were a lot of blessings in disguise, um, because we were able to build a staff in a much better way. Mm-hmm. Um, right now our company culture is probably our strongest asset. It's absolutely beautiful. Um, it's really, we've really built a family here. Um, you know, it's, um, everybody knows each other's families.
Everybody's hanging out together, doing things, you know, off work, hours together. Um, it's super supportive. I love that. You know, how many entrepreneurs I talked to, myself included, that get to a point where we have to break down to build back up. Yeah. Um, I think this is really common, more common than what people think.
Um. I mean, I, I'm even hearing it from people who are new in the industry, just, you know, first, second year and they kind of grew too fast and like, oh my God, wait, we gotta, we have to restructure. And, um, and I think this is, this is really common and it sounds like. The way that you're doing and, and you do, right?
Like your, your business has all of the different roles from the admin to the finance, to the operations, sales, marketing, and we have to, it's all about right people, right seats, getting the right people in there and alignment with the culture, your core values. Mm-hmm. And sounds like that's, that's what you're, what you're doing right now, and you are definitely a visionary, um, because you have so much industry experience and.
Obviously long time tenure in your market and things like that. So you, and then you're kind of seeing the golden nugget at the end, right? Uh, yeah. Well, that's what I'm looking for, but I'm torn, you know, it's, it's not a control thing anymore 'cause I've given that up. Um, you know, I've, I've empowered other people to take that.
Very good. Um, but the, the hard part is if I walk away, what happens? You know, what happens to my team? What happens to my staff? Um, is, would new ownership come in and support them in the same way as they're being supported now? Mm-hmm. Would they be able to continue to show them career paths and growth and, and mentor them the way that, you know, that's been happening?
That's real. Um, yeah. You know, and so that's, that's what makes me hesitate. So for me, if and when I sell, and, you know, that is the plan currently. Um. It's more about the dollar, it's more than about the dollar. Mm-hmm. Um, now it really, I wanna be able to do it in a way where the culture's maintained. Yeah.
Because, you know, a rising, a rising ship, a rising tide does raise all ships and, um, you know, I see so many, you know, private equity firms come in and pretty much got a company. Yeah. You know, ownership walks away, they, they lose the culture. Um, you know, you, you see a lot of wrong hats in the, you know, or, or the right hats in the wrong seats and vice versa.
Yeah. Um, a lot of our competition's been bought up by private equity, you know, in the Milwaukee and Madison markets and, um, thankfully we've thrived through it, you know, um, but um, I don't wanna see that happen to us. Yeah. And the longer that we are in our business, you and I have pretty much been in business the same amount of time.
I'm, I'm 26 years now. And you're right about the same place, right? No, not quite so much. I think you've been in business. Yeah. I think we started in oh 8, 0 9. So what is that? 17 years ago? Okay. Well you definitely have that much experience though. Um, well, yeah. 35 years plus just in high. There you go. Yeah.
So, um, but yeah, I mean, it does, it becomes our life. Um, and there there is something about the legacy of what we've created that we really, genuinely care about. And the people are such a huge part of it. Um, I'm with you a hundred percent on that, so, but kudos to you because, you know, there isn't just one way.
Like I believe in the dream. I believe that. Owners like yourself and myself that have been so invested for so many years into a company and bootstrapped it and built it, um, based on our experience and industry involvement and things like that. Um, I, I think that there's, I think that we can really create any outcome that we want and we can be different.
I agree. You know, um, I'm in a, I wish I had a succession plan more similar to yours. You know, we're your daughters, I, I believe, are moving in and kind of gonna take things and run with them down the road. Um, my daughter really wants no, nothing to do with this whatsoever. You know, she, she grew up and, and saw the stress, which I probably didn't handle as well back then.
You know, we all grow. Um, and, uh, just wants nothing to do with it. Um, it's created a lot of the freedom that I've had to be able to travel with her and, you know, see the world, see the country, um, and do all the things that we've done. Um, but, uh, I'm proud of her for what she's doing, so I've gotta respect that.
Good. Yeah. As you should. And you know, the key word that you said is want. Mm-hmm. Like kids, the kids are never going to do it if they don't want it. Um, one thing my daughter said recently is she said, mom, my, I have, I have orange and blue blood flowing through my body. I'm like, holy crap. All right. She's for real here.
Um, but, uh, yeah, so. I kind of wanna divert because Jeff, you have something very unique that we can talk about. Um, that's a little bit different from most podcasts we do here at the huge, and that is in regard to safety, um, and honestly professionalism in the industry. Um, so will you talk a little bit about, uh, uh, safety green training and.
What that looks like and like the certifications that you've held and all the training that you've done, because this is really important. Um, you know, I could go back to like oh eight when I started training, um, well earlier than that in the IWCA days, but, um, it really probably started back in the late eighties.
Um, you know, as a young man still in high school. Um, we were doing some crazy stuff, you know, on road. Like what? Well, stuff that scares me to think about now. Okay. We didn't, we didn't know what an anchor was, you know, until, right. You know, a decade ago, right? Yep. Um, we were still in seat harnesses. Um, a lot of times we're on one line.
Um, we're using descent devices that are very rudimentary now. We were tying off to things that makes my heart murmur now. Right. You know, um, you know, back then there were deaths in the industry almost monthly. Um, and, uh, growing up through the IWCA because of, of Kent, my father mm-hmm. Um, I've always been really well networked and if I didn't know people personally, I usually knew something about their families or their companies and, and all these deaths and injuries really affected me personally.
Uh, they put a lot of fear in the back of my mind. One, when's it gonna be my turn? 'cause I knew the risks we were taking. I knew that we were doing stupid shit. Or when is it for my coworkers? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I just kinda lived a life of fear. Um, and the back then, you know, it wasn't even bravery, it was ignorance.
Mm-hmm. You know? Um, you didn't know what you didn't know. We didn't, but we're still scared all the time because you didn't know how to be safe either. Right. Um, so then in the late nineties, I think it was 97, 98, something like that, um, we went to, my dad and I went to the very first SPRAT training session that existed.
Um, will you enlighten our, uh, audience on what sprat is? I'm sorry. Uh, RA is Society of Professional Access Technicians. Okay. Um, it's, um, probably it in ida, the, um. Industrial Rope access trade Association, um, are probably the two leading bodies in rope work in the world. Mm-hmm. Um, Ida is more international, spreads more North American, but spreading very international quickly.
Um, and this is, this is rope access for all different applications, not just window cleaning. I mean, we're talking windmills. We're talking, there's actually very few window cleaners that hold SPR certifications by percentage, uh, and fewer yet that are like spra SPR threes. And there's exceedingly few companies that run actual, um, industrial rope access programs with level threes on board that are documented properly.
Mm-hmm. Um, and they're set up properly. Is that, so just question, and again, I, I really want the audience to understand what we're talking about, but is that because as a window cleaner, we're just descending, coming straight down? Um, not well, so since like 2018. Um, OSHA now recognizes two types of, of rope access, uh, rope descent systems.
Mm-hmm. Which most window cleaners, um, understand and utilize if they're certified or not. Mm-hmm. Um, which is, uh, you're limited at 300 feet. With authorized user training for rope descent systems and you are required to use engineered certified anchor points, right, that have to be properly certified and documented.
Mm-hmm. Um, so that's required to do most window cleaning. Compliantly. Um, if you want to go over 300 feet or attached to anything other than a certified anchor point, then you need a full on industrial rope access team. Now, industrial rope access is what OSHA uses as a term. Um, but once you have a full team, and that could be through an organization like IA or sprat or if you want to use the an CZ 3 59 document, you could do an in-house program if you wanna keep reinventing the wheel, we choose to take on the Sprat model.
Mm-hmm. Um, so all of our people are, are certified. Um. But then you can go to the moon and you, you're no longer required to use engineer certified anchor points. Um, you still have to go through a lot of the same documentation, uh, but as a sprat three, um, you can do that. Uh, you are a qualified person. You can go in and do the if, if necessary.
Uh, an engineer doesn't necessarily have to pull test something. They can make a determination. Um, it gets pulled, tested if it's in question. Same thing for a Sprat team. Um, so we can go to the moon and we can go to the ground without things that, you know, may or may not have anchor points. Um, it also, it, there is a lot higher level of training to become, um, have to have a spprt team.
Um, where RDS, which, you know, I do documented authorized user training, uh, for RDS teams within Safety Green, um, you just need training by a qualified person that has to check all the OSHA boxes, right? Right. And then you become an authorized user. So even as an authorized user, you still have to be under the supervision of a competent person.
Well, within RDS, the employer can appoint the competent person, um, based off of their own criteria. Uh, the whole program needs to be set up by a qualified person, and the OSHA definition is very bad. So basically, if you have, you know, the right competence, confidence, skill sets, you know, um, and understand what you're doing, you can deem yourself a qualified person.
So guidelines are very loose for RDS, right? As long as you're documenting things properly, you can pretty much get into an RDS program. Um, where industrial rope access, such as sprat, is much more stringent to get into. Um, where instead of just getting authorized user training, you actually have competency tests, um, competency skill sets that have to be passed.
Um, those tests are given by independent evaluators, appointed by Sprat, not the training companies. So the training companies, um, are basically getting evaluated as well. That keeps their standard very high. Uh, once you become, um, a level one sprat tech, you have to docu. Well, for Sprat you have to document 500 hours.
For rat it's a thousand. Um, and then within three years, you have to either recertify at the level you're at, go up a level, or wash out and start over. So then the same thing happens at level two To get to level three, it takes most people about nine years to become a level three, and you cannot have a compliant industrial rope access program without at least one level three on staff.
Okay. Technically, you can't even log hours unless you're under a level three. So what level have you achieved in your career? I'm level three currently. Okay. Yeah. Um, that's awesome. So, um, what would a, what would a train the train, well, let me ask you this question first. I've kind of always wanted to know this.
How many buildings in the United States are over 300 feet? Oh, a lot. Lot depends on metro. Yeah, it depends on the metro. Um, okay. But at Madison, none because everything's limited by the capital. Right. So this is all mid-rise. It's all like 13 stories down. Okay. But you get into, you get in, even in the state of Wisconsin, I think there's two or three now, not a lot, but you get into Chicago and there's more than you can count.
You get into Nashville, there's more than you can count. You know, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh. Um, all the major me metros, you know? Yeah. You know, 50% of the buildings are over 300 feet. Mm-hmm. You know, so if, if an, if a certified rope access company was to go into a metro and wouldn't have to throw other companies under the bus, but just start educating property managers and building owners on their own liabilities.
Mm-hmm. Um, it'd be pretty easy to walk through and take some work, wouldn't it? You know, and since what, 2018? I think the same date, maybe 2016. OSHA has the multi-employer citation policy, which defines, I believe it's five different definitions for employer. Um, the us the contractor coming on site falls under three of those definitions.
The property manager or building owner, because they're hiring us, we're their employee. Um, they fall under three of those definitions and they overlap. And that's what OSHA uses to now not only cite the contractors, but cite the buildings and property owners as well. Hmm. You know, so you go in, you go into these property manager groups, you know, sit down at a boardroom table, put up the PowerPoint and show them what all their liabilities are, and then come through and show them how you're going to mitigate those liabilities.
Head start to turn. Yeah. And hence all the anchor companies start popping up everywhere. Right. Uh, well, anchor companies are needed for 300 feet and down. Yep. Um, well, for, so you can do, utilize RDS. Right? And don't get me wrong, even as, you know, uh, even as a sprat company, um, we like anchor points. Mm-hmm.
But, you know, we don't have to use them like we can. There's a market force without them as well. Yeah. Um, and what designates. A certified anchor point. What, what, what does the anchor point have to have to be certified? Well, so it has to be certified by an engineer. Um, they're manufactured for 5,000 foot pounds of resistance.
Mm-hmm. To take a shock load four time with a four time multiplier. Mm-hmm. Um, they have to be. Either deemed capable of doing that, or they have to be pull tested to half their working load limit, which is 2,500 foot pounds. Right. Um, those are usually installed. There are anchor companies that that's, that's all they do.
But most of them will then either sub or, you know, work with engineers that have to stamp those off. Um, and that's state by state by the definition. Um, some states it can, it has to be a certified structural engineer. Oh, I think I just lost you. Did I lose you? I'm here. You're here. Let me bring you back up.
Do you hear me? Yeah. For some reason. Oh, there you're, I just lost my screen. Sorry. That's okay. Um, you know, so the definition that, uh, needs to be utilized as state by state, uh, if that can just be a standard engineer, has to be a certified structural engineer in different states. It, it's, there's different requirements to reach that status.
Okay. You know, but we don't only train window cleaners. We train all the trades. Uh, we do a lot of work with structural engineers now that are doing facade inspections. Um, we do a lot of work with, um, high steel workers, electricians. I've trained plumbers to repel into elevator shafts to do plumbing work.
Um, cockers, glazer tuck pointers, you know anybody that's working at height. Yeah. Well, I know the whole building envelope, maintenance industry is becoming really big and a lot of large companies across the United States are using window cleaning to get in the door. Um, so that they can sell a multitude of other building services for the facade.
And, um, that's why we spun off Green Building Maintenance Services, you know, 'cause we're out there with our eyes on it. But, you know, when you're, we're the ones that are gonna find all this damage or the things that need to happen, so then become the expert and then either you're doing the work or bringing in people or taking a piece, you know, it's, yeah, it is, it is a window because window cleaning is the maintenance work that's, you know, repetitive that has to happen.
Yeah. So cool. Um, that was loud. Did you hear that? The theme, the, the ding? Yeah. Yeah, that's now I think that's why I lost the screen. My phone is connected to my computer. Someone messages come through at like, wipes off. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. Wow. Okay. Um, now that was a lot of information in like three minutes, wasn't it?
You know, it's so important though because, um, with window cleaning, and, I mean, this applies to pressure washing too. Everything we're talking about, we're talking about access, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and. You know, a, I think a lot of the listeners are doing primarily residential, maybe mid-rise, um, lift work, things like that.
Mm-hmm. But this is, this is a whole nother level and I think the understanding and what you're telling us about, and understanding the knowledge and expertise and training that goes into breaking into that level of services, um, you know. It's, it's a highly skilled thing. Um, and then of course, the accountability, the, like you said, the documentation, having, you know, bonafide programs, training to make sure that you are compliant, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, this is, this is really good information for our listeners and kind of like a breakthrough in my opinion, um, for a lot of people that are listening and really thank you for that. Um. So let's, can we kinda, um, I wanna kind of just dumb down a little bit. And I do wanna talk about safety for the typical listener that's talking that's here listening to us.
Um, what would a safety program look like in, or what does a safety program look like in, um, green window cleaning that does a lot of residential work. Uh, on our res, well, our residential side really does kind of mirror our high-rise side. I mean, you've got all the same things in place. Um, like what? Well, you've gotta have documented training.
Right, right. Uh, the boxes have to be checked. They have to be signed off on. Um, uh, competency has to be the, the supervision has to be there. Um, a JHA job, hazard analysis has to be done on every project regardless of how small, um, you know, power lines and things like that are super dangerous around residential homes.
Um, yep. Residential rooftops are much more dangerous than what we do on rope out in the big world, you know? Um, agreed. I know. So like, yes, there's a lot of rope accidents. I'm familiar with them because of what we do, but there's a lot more people falling off of residential roofs. And I've got several very close friends that their lives have been changed, um, because they've come off roofs and, um, you know, most residential roofs don't have anchor systems.
Um, there's not a thing that you can just tie off to and say, that's solid, that's bond proof, you know, I'm good. Um, so. Ba, you know, the big thing was gutter cleaning. There's so many companies that are still walking gutter lines with a leaf blower, you know, because it's, it's economical. Yep. You know, until they have an accident.
Um, but, uh, we've got a, you know, we don't get off the ladder. Um, you know, we use a pole and pull everything towards us. Uh, water poles have really changed the game. You know, you can reach dormers and things like that with the water fed pole nowadays. Um, yep. You know, most of my career and, you know, um, probably part of your career, waterfront poles didn't exist, you know?
Yeah. So you ladders and getting on rooftops and doing crazy stuff. Um, but, you know, uh, then there's anything that's below, I don't even remember what it is off the top of my head. It's like a, a four 12 pitch maybe. Yep. Anything below that, you, you know, you basically have a leading edge that you wanna stay away from by a company.
Policy for us is 10 feet. Yeah, I think it's, yep. Six feet. Yep. Yeah, for us it's 10. Okay. Um, but, um, anything that's steeper than that, you need to be in fall restraint. Yep. You know, not fall arrest, but fall restraints. Uh, I believe, which, you know, I don't, I'm a business owner. Which difference? Yes. Well, fall restraint.
So fall arrest requires that 5,000 pound anchor. Right. And something that can withstand that. Uh, fall restraint, I believe code is 350 foot pounds. Uh, the same as a railing, right? Mm-hmm. Um, something that you can lean against but not get over the leading edge. Fall arrest saves you once you've taken a fall, stops your shock load, fall restraint prevents you from getting into the fall situation.
That's right. Yep. Yep. Um, so you know what we do? We do a lot of, because we have the equipment and you know, my, a lot of my people are around this all the time. We, we throw ropes over stuff when we can. You know, we're tying to deck posts and trees and trucks and lifts and, and things like that. Um, in this area, because we're pretty far north, um, people don't like you, you know, putting roofers into their roofs because of penetration, right?
And, and leaking and things like that. It, it's a really tough sell. Um, but, um, you know, there are jobs that we will turn down. There's a lot of low hanging fruit out there where you don't have to put yourself in precarious situations. We're not the contractor for everybody. Um, so, you know, it's something that we can't accomplish safely and compliantly.
We don't do it. Um, and we, we are compliant across the board because, you know, we're safety green training as well. So we're out there, we're on the social media. My people are taking pictures. People know who we are and so we're always under the microscope. Um, if I can, I wanna share how we approach it at a plus PRO Services, and that's, um, so.
If there is root. If there is work above or on a roof. On a roof. So meaning we have to access a, let's face it, the equipment that we have available today with soft washing and the power wash equipment and the water we can throw and everything like we have, like we are poised very well to be safe. Right?
Yeah. Our, like we talked about, that stuff comes up, but these houses and the way they're designed and the way architects design 'em, they put very little. Effort into thinking about long-term maintenance and how you're gonna get to these things safely by, 'cause we're really talking about OSHA 1910 walking, working surfaces, right?
Mm-hmm. So, um, if there's roof, if, I'm sorry, if there's work on that, we have to access the roof. Basically what we do is bing, that's a trigger that now there needs to be a safety work plan in place. A JHA, which is a job hazard analysis, and that work that requires getting on the roof is now a separate line item on the quote with those other components at a charged a, a specific charge rate.
Because now there's, you know, roof rigging involved specialized equipment, and you have to have competent people. And so that gives our client the option to opt in, pay for that service. Right, which is specialized for opt out. So maybe it's not cleaning a widow's peak on the top of a three story beach house or maybe it's not right.
So that is one way that, that we've tried to work around. Um, 'cause and you're right, if it's dangerous, we definitely wanna walk away. We don't wanna walk away. That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the home. That's right. Right. You just can't do that piece. That's, and that's, that's kind of how I've carved it out at, at our company.
Um, and, you know, and with that, so like going back to the training program, uh, company like ours or our listeners, where are they finding all, all of the safety training to be able to have the documented program? What do you recommend? Well, there's lots of, um, organizations out there. Um, you know, you're very, um, in depth with the IWCA.
They've got a, a great residential rooftop flooring program. Um, we've seen enough of it, you know, um, to know that it's quality and it can be utilized. Um, yeah. Um, you know, thanks, thanks for bringing that up. Because like the, the IWCA, the PW and a, um, those two organizations focus really heavily on safety and so.
Really, when you are members of these organizations, then you have access to the safety training. And it's a, it's a program that you can implement into the company and provide the documentation and the ongoing safety training. Um, so that you're compliant. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, and it really comes down to, you know, understanding the OSHA standards.
Um, you can use those as guidelines, understanding the, the ANSI standards. You can use those as guidelines. Um. For the most part, OSHA doesn't really create rules. Um, they cite a lot of ANSI standards, American National Standards Institute, um, and uh, OSHA is not law. OSHA is the minimum standard of safety.
So as long as you're documenting properly, um, and you're working above that standard, you can really do what you will. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, um, if you're not documented in OSHA's eyes, it didn't happen. You know, so when you have your toolbox talks, when you have your monthly, quarterly, weekly safety meetings, whatever you're doing, um, that all needs to be documented.
You know, write an outline, check the boxes, have people sign up on 'em. Yeah. Um, and you need to make sure supervision is in place. Yep. And there's a lot of automations, um, out there, uh, programs, uh, software systems and things like that that you can implement to be able to kind of automate this process. Um, that includes like safety training videos and things like that.
Um, so like many of us are familiar with Safety Advocate, Mike Draper's product, um, you see a lot of that in, in both the IWCA and the PWA. Um, and he, he's done a great job at making it, um, easy to implement into companies. Yeah. But like, could a company come to you and say, Hey Jeff, can you come in and train my people?
Um, they could, um, you know, you have to fill the role as a qualified person. But I'm typically going, I'm not going to embrace, um, a lot of residential ladder rooftop training, stuff like that. Yeah. Um, my hands are super full in the rope world. Yeah. Um, I train, uh, you know, a lot of companies with and without, within and without window cleaning.
Probably more, you know, even outside of window cleaning now. Okay. Um, do a lot of rigging, consulting, rescue, standby, um, writing up work plans, um, putting use plans together. Um, going through and helping them price out access things. Um, I do a lot of fall arrest, um, anchor system consulting, um, things like that.
I work with a lot of engineering companies. Um, we're, we'll actually be out in Pittsburgh this summer doing the stadiums, doing a lot of facade work and inspections. Um, nice window cleaning's, just, um, it's a gateway, right? Yeah. Yeah. To get you into all these other things. But we, um, you know. Safety Green's wheelhouse is really, um, rope descent systems and industrial rope access swing stage.
Um, more in the, um, in the highrise world. Mid-rise, high-rise, world, high access. It's, you know, um, while we, while Green Window cleaning services operates in the residential world and we understand safety, so it's easy for us, um, you know, we are not, we're not the the residential trainer. Yep. Okay. That's not something we embraced.
Okay. Well, um, just to, you know, again, this is so incredibly valuable. Um, I hope our listeners think it's as valuable as I do. Um, but back to the business. Um, share with us a couple things that you're going through, um, that are, are difficult right now with what you're trying to do. Um, you know, we've just overcome some things that.
It seems like in every, not catastrophe but challenge, there's always that silver lining that we hear about, you know, becomes a blessing after the fact. Um, you know, a few years back we lost a very major client, um, which was devastating for us. Um, however. And, you know, it's, it's like they say it's not how many times, you know, you fall down, it's how many times you get up.
So, you know, while we were getting up and dusting off, we learned to diversify in a better way. Um, really, really, um, uh, foster relationships, but at, but at the same time, not let, like one relationship hold too much power over us. Um, you know, so just learning how to run a business and not putting all your eggs in one basket.
Has, has been a huge lesson, um, losing all of our clients or losing all of our operational staff after COVID, you know, and being able to redesign and, uh, hire in a better way and create a better culture, um, has been amazing. Um, team building, you know, is empowering other people. Um. Coming up as a window cleaner, I was out there trying to be the lead technician and do everything myself and, and push from the front.
Um, and while that's very gratifying, it's also very limiting, right? Yeah. Uh, so learning to empower other people, set up the systems, set up the programs, um, so that you can step away and actually scale the thing. Um, you know, it diversifying allowed us to, you know, hit that seven figure mark. Uh, we put on like we, after that kick in, you know.
That, that kick, we, um, we, we put on 20% hit seven figures, but we didn't stop there. You know, it's, we did three years after that with 20% each year. Nice. Um, up to now, which, um, really showed us that we do have something scalable, sustainable here. You know, that, um, any one person can be taken outta the equation, including myself.
Um, and it's gonna, it's gonna survive. It's gonna thrive. Love that, create the machine, you know, that's, that's gonna do that. So there's been a lot of challenges, um, and, and they're ongoing. And the biggest challenge is personal growth. You know, always becoming a better person and, um, learning how to deal with people in a better way and, and mentor people and, and show them career paths.
And, um, your company can't evolve until you do. You know, so you gotta put in the work, you gotta do it. Um, we were, we were fortunate. We had our, um, we're, we're a seasonal company. Um, you know, we're about eight and a half months a year, you know, so we've gotta make our knot in a lot, in a, in a short period of time.
But we had our big onboarding meeting. Um, just a few weeks ago for the season, which, you know, I think it was March 1st or shortly after, and we did, um, a whole program on emotional iq, you know, with for a bunch of blue collar people. And we thought when we put this together, we were like, man, you know, this is gonna be over their heads.
They're not gonna be interested. Um, but we had a few hard dynamics on a couple of teams that we wanted to address. So the whole team got, uh, an emotional IQ tra, um, program. And afterwards they were so receptive. It was amazing. It's like told us this is some high level stuff. And for us to be on a team where this hits home, you know, feels really good.
It's really gratifying to the point where afterwards they want emotional IQ stickers for their helmets, you know, and they want cars every time, so, you know, they achieve something. Um, I love that. Yeah. So it's, it's uh, it's been fun, you know, there's been a lot of challenges and you overcome them. Ne grow, uh, life is what happens outside of our comfort zone, you know?
Um, yeah, anxiety and turn it into excitement. 'cause your world's gonna expand 100%, man. Um, so to. Joining the huge mastermind. What, what have you, I know you're pretty new. I think you came on back in the fall of last year. Mm-hmm. Um, so what, what have you gotten out of it? Oh, so much, so much so quickly. Um, you know, whenever you get into a room of people, um, who have a lot more to offer than you do, um.
And everybody does in one way or another. Um, you learn quickly. And you know, within the mastermind group there's many, many different types of companies. Um, mostly service companies. Yeah. Um, many, many different types. And. When you hear about everybody else's trials and tribulations and how they've overcome them, um, one, it puts you, it, it is Rader to begin with because you realize you're not doing this alone.
These aren't, you're not the only one going through challenges and most of them are fairly universal. Um. And when you're able to give of yourself and then be open enough to receive, um, there's things you can bring back that are revolutionary. Mm-hmm. You know, as far as systems or even just access to people, uh, you know, finding the who not the how.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the books, even just coming home with the books and reading the books has been mind blowing and evolutionary and, and it's been a lot of growth and, you know, um, dedicating to doing the work and, um. You know, finding people within your own company and empowering them with the tools to do what they need so that you can, you know, keep being the visionary.
Um, yeah, I, I could not do this without integrators. I've got, you know, I've got four admin staff that blow my mind every day, um, of what they're able to accomplish. And, um, you know, at the same time, their minds work a little differently. They don't always have the vision. Um, but, um, when we all get together as a team, it's mind blowing.
Things happen. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's the ideal relationship right there. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, the people involved, every single person is amazing. Yeah. Um, just the fact that they're there shows how much they wanna succeed, um, how much they wanna learn and willing to give and learn. And it's, it's, uh, it's been super cool.
I wouldn't give it up. Awesome. I love to hear that. Well, I was super stoked when I saw you. I mean, we were in the room together, uh, in Nashville and we've known each other so long, and it wasn't until lunchtime that I even noticed they were there. I was like, whoa, Jeff, what are you doing here? Um, so that was really cool for me.
And that's like a full circle thing. I love seeing other people that, you know, have been invested in the industry for so long, um, getting involved in. That's, that's, it's just awesome. So this has been such a really unique and enlightening conversation today. Um, I hope you know how much I want you to know how much your experience and knowledge, um.
It really will propel a lot of thought by people listening today. Um, and really, and the safety is such a huge thing, and I know that's just a portion of what we talked about, but it's something that's not talked about enough. Um, and so, you know, I just really applaud you for everything that you've accomplished and how much knowledge that you've gained in your career and you're helping other companies.
Be safe and, um, and, you know, succeeding in your own company and doing all the cool things and, and, you know, cultivating cool culture, great people. So kudos to you, Jeff. Well, thank you. You know, in my mind, I think it's a bit selfish of me, um, being able to give back to the industry. Like, this is what allows me to sleep at night.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, because I've led a life on rope and at heights. Um. You know, every so often I wake up with nightmares where I jump like I'm falling, right? Mm-hmm. And that typically happens when I take time off from giving back to the industry through training and other consulting and other avenues.
And so I think, you know, that's, it's how I selfishly sleep at night. You know, and then for and for fun, you know, I don't feel anxiety when I am doing these crazy things anymore. Well, things that appear crazy because I understand how safe they can be. So by training, I can, I can thrive and live through all these new people's anxiety as they're learning, you know?
Yeah. So it's, um, it's, it's, it's gratifying and I think I get way more than I give. Have you been given a copy of the Go-Giver? Book, not only have I been given a coffee, a copy, um, Uhhuh we did in our weekly, um, admin meetings. We went through it chapter by chapter. Um, freaking love that. We went through that and used it for staff training.
Um, uh, we've used other books like, um, Jocko Willings Extreme Ownership Series. Um, I used, uh, some of that for the admin staff. Then there's like the, uh, I think the third one is like the operations manual, um, for extreme ownership. I went, used my whole leadership team and we went through that whole thing, applied it to life and applied it to the company, you know, chapter by chapter every week.
Uh, there's been a few other things, but yeah. But, uh, yeah, the Go-Giver ISS great. I actually bought the whole series of them. I mean, the one that you, you walked home with is just the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, pretty awesome. I gave a copy to everybody in my company for Christmas. Um, it's really become really the basis of our core values in the company and really our culture.
So, um, it's, you know, it's, it changing, like we've had to do a lot of overhaul in the company. So, but that really gave us the, the story. To be able to base who we wanted to be and to start implementing that. So yeah, kudos to you, man. I fricking love it. Yeah, kudos to you. You're running a hell of an operation yourself.
Yeah. You're giving back to the industry as much as anybody with your involvement. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, I love it. It's in my heart and it's given a lot to me. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's for the same reason as you. I, I wanna, I wanna see people succeed as professionals in this industry. My dad always said, it's not what you do, it's how you do it.
And, um, so yeah, we're window cleaners, we do soft washing, power washing, all that sort of thing. But it's like, yeah, we wanna be, we wanna be recognized as professionals. Um. Yeah. So, and, and I wanna see that for everybody. And so this, without a doubt, this conversation will help that it will, because people listening are like, wow, there is really a lot, there's a lot to know and a lot to excel to.
Um, so, you know, I'd like to put myself out there. Um. Like I said, uh, we, I, for us, safety Green is how we give back to the industry. It's not a revenue, uh, center for us. Um, so if you want advice, you know, reach out, give us a call, you know, um. It's, uh, unless I've gotta travel outta town or something, we're usually just giving you the advice.
You know, we're not, we're not charging you for anything. We can set you up with, uh, compliance packages and a lot of things that can outline everything you need just free of charge. Um, you know, we, we, we've created it, we use it. Uh, for us it's more about keeping the industry safe than, you know, creating any kind of a revenue from it.
Um, so if it's going to send yourself and your, your, your workers. Home safely every night. Um, we'd like to be able to contribute to that. Awesome. Well, we are at the end of our time, but like I said, so much gratitude for what you've shared with us today and, um, everybody knows how to find Jeff. And, um, thank you for being part of the huge community.
Jeff. Hey, it's privilege. Yeah, you've definitely, um, you, you coming in and being a part is, uh, so beneficial to really the entire industry, but to the huge community as well. So kudos to you. Thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. And, um, you know, we'll be seeing you soon. I hope so. Okay. All right.
Thanks everybody. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated.
Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
And scroll down and click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
And if you'd like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sheila Smeltzer sits down with Brad Davis of Best Exterior Cleaning in Seattle, Washington, to unpack one of the most honest kinds of growth stories in home services: rapid sales success followed by the hard reality of building operations that can actually support it. Brad shares his unconventional path from ironworker and crane operator to top-producing real estate agent and eventually exterior cleaning business owner, explaining how he helped grow the company from about $60,000 to $600,000 in a year through relentless networking, outreach, follow-up, and sheer volume of sales activity.
 
Brad and Sheila also dig into what happened after that explosive growth. Brad opens up about the breakdowns that came from scaling too fast without strong enough systems, including hiring issues, poor training, inconsistent job quality, operational chaos, and the financial pain of expensive mistakes. The conversation then shifts into what he is building now: clearer technician levels, stronger onboarding, better accountability, a more structured training process, and a roadmap for creating real career paths inside the business. Along the way, they talk about leadership, culture, recurring revenue, commercial versus residential work, and why long-term success in service businesses depends not just on selling hard, but on creating simple, scalable systems that help people win.
 
Resources:
Brad Davis – Best Exterior Cleaning
Brad Davis on LinkedIn
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Welcome today to today's Huge Transformations podcast. I am Sheila Smeltzer here with you and I am interviewing Brad Davis. Best exterior cleaning outta Seattle Washington. Fascinating story about Brad. I met him recently in the huge mastermind group and I had the pleasure of interviewing him today. Um, this is a guy who was an iron worker journeyman, got his spine crushed, uh, moved into real estate, became a top producing real estate agent, um, rookie of the year, and ultimately started an exterior cleaning company.
And sounds to me like he can sell like crazy and we're gonna talk a lot about that. But he also, 10 Xed his company. One year going from 60,000 to 600,000 and he shares the trials and tribulations and the really difficult things that came along the way of that type of rapid growth. And we dive into that today and, uh, we have a great conversation and talk a lot about training.
We talk a lot about. Sales. And, um, by the way, he's an excellent, um, digital creator, has excellent video content. Highly suggest you check out his stuff on social media. Um, and yeah, we're learning together here at the Huge Transformations podcast and really enjoy you joining us and listening to Brad Davis's interview and promise.
You're gonna find some gold and you're gonna learn some things that either A, you can relate to. Or B, can help you prevent making some of the same mistakes that we do as entrepreneurs. So welcome to the huge community, and thank you for listening to today's show. Hello. Hello everyone. This is Sheila Selzer with The Huge Transformations Podcast.
And thank you for joining us today. We have Brad Davis, Brad's with Best Exterior Cleaning outta Seattle, Washington, and, uh, a new, um, attendee with our huge mastermind group. Brad, welcome. Thanks, uh, thanks for having me. Uh, yeah, I'm exterior cleaner out of Seattle, Washington. Uh, happy to be here. Really love the huge convention.
Yeah. So Brad, I, uh, you and I got to know each other a little bit whenever, uh, at one of the recent masterminds and we connected on the safety topic. Don't know if we're gonna get into that today, but, um, happy to. But, um, I'm just really excited to be able to get to know you a little bit better and share, you know, your experiences with our, with our viewers.
Um, you know, I see that you've done some real estate. I see that you've done some iron work and you're about two years into your, uh, company in the exterior cleaning space. So, c tell us, tell us a little bit of your background please. Yeah, so, uh. So like a lot of entrepreneurs, I, uh, didn't do well in high school, uh, A DHD and dyslexia.
And so that was a struggle. So I became an iron worker outta high school, um, four year, four plus years. Um, after being an iron worker, I was nearly crushed to death at work. Um, I have four fuse vertebrae in my lower back. Had to learn how to walk again. Took multiple back surgeries and years of physical therapy.
Um, and I say it like it's nonchalant, but you know, it's kind of normal for me, uh, now. And so then I, um, after that I got into construction cranes, uh, was doing like mobile cranes and, and tower cranes, um, for a while. And then got an opportunity to work at Boeing, was a overhead crane operator at Boeing for five years.
And then, um, started a, uh, cannabis processing company out of Oregon. Um, we. They make marijuana products. Mm-hmm. Um, realized I was in over my head, but I was a part of like a group that started it and decided I just didn't want to be a part of it. So I left that, uh, got into real estate, got like a top, um, top producer, uh, one year and rookie of the year, my first year.
And, um, rookie of the year. Yeah. So they gave like a rookie of the year for our office. There were like 200 agents. Um mm-hmm. There was like five, five, uh, five rookies, five new people. And so I, uh, I, I actually, uh, proudly won it by quite a bit. Um, and then I got, uh, top five, uh, real estate agents in my offices, um, the next year.
And then my third year things just slowed way down and I was just, look, I, it just wasn't. What I wanted to do long term. And so I looked for something that I could, a machine that I could build. I wanted to build a business that I could slowly work my way through every single position to where I could then be able to, um, have a asset that works.
And so I knew right away to get, you know, coaching and training and things like that. Um, my first, uh, we started in September of 24. Mm-hmm. Um, September, October, November, and then December. Um, that combined, I did about $60,000. Um, and then after, uh, and then, and then, so that was 20 24, 20 25, uh, we pushed really hard.
I, uh, essentially like brought on a partner who had, um, a really small, like one man show business that did a lot of multifamily. Okay. And I, um, essentially what I say is I took what he had and I put gas on it, and we did. Um, and he did like about 200 or less a year. Um, but he had a lot of, like, his wife was going through cancer treatment and, um, had two small kids and just couldn't really grow it.
Um, there's just too many hats for him to wear between the business and home. Mm-hmm. Um, and so he, he, we partnered up and we did 600 K last year. And so we just like, uh, and it was, and about three quarters of the way through it all started like falling. So, um, I thought this was going to, you know, like I was selling and things were going really great and we just didn't have systems that really made what, like made it work.
It was just like we were going off of. Momentum and just trying to make everything happen. And about three quarters of the way through the year, I was getting pulled out a lot for, um, uh, about, actually probably about halfway through the year I was getting pulled out of, of selling to go and fix problems and deal with things.
And we just, my focus couldn't be in, in sales and trying to make things happen. So, um, we were just having to, you know, try and, and we were, we weren't training people as well as we could. We didn't have as good expectations as we could. We weren't hiring that well. We were just kind of doing everything okay.
But we were selling really well. Okay. So it was a lot coming in, a lot of problems. And then we were delivering, but the, but we'd have jobs that were big, that were like, oh, this is gonna take us a week. And then it took us a week and a half or two weeks because. The problems. Right. And can can I stop you for a second?
Yeah. So I just heard you say that you 10 x your company in a year. Yeah. You did that through sales. So can you take us, can you take our listeners through your sales process? 'cause that's, that's pretty damn good. Thanks. Um, my sales process, yeah. Was, uh, what do you think was hardly a sales process? I felt like though it's, you know, there's something to it.
Um, so like the main, so what I did was I looked for, I got lists of, of multifamily, um. Of like commercial slash like multifamily, um, contacts. And then I would, um, and so that's, that's phone numbers and emails. And then I also, um, got connected with, um, the, our local CI, um, and so I, which is like an organization that focuses on, um, education and, uh, and mar uh, networking in the multifamily space.
Okay. So they, so now I'm a part of the education board on the, for like the organization. So we. Work on, like putting together events that can help teach, uh, homeowners of multifamily and property managers and what we are called business partners. Um, and so that it kind of puts that together and it teaches everybody like, like there's certain things that people need to learn, uh, contract law, um, just some of the, like the understanding of what needs to be done in some of these properties.
And it's everything from, they do have people that are just their own single family home. It's not very often. It's normally that they'll have like owners of, um, you know, town homes that have like five town homes up to like these like really massive properties. And so, uh, so a lot of networking. Uh, we're a part of also a, um, BNI group, which we don't get a lot of, like a lot of like single family.
Home stuff. Sure. Um, but really it was just cold outreach or meeting people in person. Right. Um, it's, we did, we ran Facebook ads. I would say like a lot of the ads and all this stuff, like, it just kept the lights on. Um, we, we could, we had a lot of like, single family, like, we're just, the, the advertising is so expensive that we're, and we are still dialing in our pricing and such.
The first time you, you know, when you're getting a, a new lead off of Facebook and you land 'em and you, and it's just like, it's enough to kinda keep the lights on, but not, you're not really making money. Mm-hmm. Um, at least not the first time you, you service 'em. Like the next time after that, you service 'em, it starts to get better or it does get better and it gets better over time.
But, um, but yeah, just having like different Hmm. Yeah. Networking and community outreach, getting involved in different, just different events, things like that through Yeah. Your lo local network. Um, prospecting, like all the real estate agents. How I started really was just calling all my real estate agent friends and being like, Hey, do you have any listings coming up that you need cleaned?
Yeah. And they're like, yeah, no, I do. And so, um, that started going, it was, so, it's just all, all these different angles is what I'm getting at that I didn't say no to anything. I mean, we do Thumbtack, we do like, um, Yelp, we do like all these different things that can get us in front of people. 'cause the most important thing is that you need to be in front of people.
I mean, we wrapped the trucks, we did like all that stuff, and. So there's not, what I'm getting at is there's not any one thing that is gonna get you, like that kind of growth. It's like just spend work from 6:00 AM to midnight every day on trying to make sure that you get in front of as many people as possible.
Right. And that's great advice. Mm-hmm. And then from there, it's follow up. Follow up, follow up. It's, make sure you're in front of people. I mean, like, I'll admit, there's times where I dropped the ball. I could have been in front of people more and could have followed up better. And that comes from like realizing that I am trying to do this and then going in, having to go fix, you know, uh, I have to go clean windows at a house 'cause they weren't done right.
Or the, or my tech didn't show up at all. Right. Or I had like, I don't know how you have five people in the field and somehow none of them show up. On a day
it happens. Like, I, I mean, it does, it happens, it blows my mind. Like I didn't miss, I, I think I missed, like, actually, I don't think me and my business partner missed a day that we didn't, that we were like, you know, unless we, we like purposely took it off. We didn't miss a day last year and somehow we have all these guys that just don't show up and having that bad, it was just a bad culture and like, just a lot of things or are problems.
But like, going back to my sales process Yeah. Was literally, it was just, was any kind of outreach I could, any kind of inbound, lead, outbound, anything, calling, emailing, following up, getting them a bid, get it, uh, following up on the bid and just, just keep going after 'em. And the crazy thing is that. You get like all this business is so random in that you have, with like the bidding process and like the prices where you get, it's really easy to get discouraged where you're saying like you, you're bidding house clean, uh, window cleaning or roof wash, whatever you're doing.
And they're like, you'll get, that's a great price. I will take it to, that's five times what somebody else was charging me. And you're like, go with them. Yeah. And you just have to be, and, and understanding your numbers that I did not, I didn't fully get right. And there's a lot of unknown unknowns that are, that make starting a business difficult.
And then when you scale it that quick, you end up like making a lot of mistakes. And now it's like, I look back and I'm like, oh, okay, that's, uh, this is the mistake I made and this is why I can't do it that way. And these like, discounts were like too big and these like, you know, like these things, like the, or just this price in general wasn't enough.
So now I need to like adjust that. And so, and we're constantly like tweaking little things and it's, to me, it's fun. Mm-hmm. Uh, I love this business and like, little secret with everybody. Like I haven't really taken much of a paycheck at all in this time because I know that, like, for one, I'm fortunate, I'm financially set up well enough to do it.
But I also know that it's like, it's really hard to scale quickly when it scaled quickly. I made no money. Mm-hmm. And because you're, you're making a lot of mistakes. Well, that, and you're investing, right? You're investing continually into the company, right? Yep. Yep. People, people, a lot of people don't realize that sometimes as the business owner, we are the last one to be paid.
Um, and it really should be the other way around, but that's life, right? Um, and we do whatever we have to do. But, um, it's, uh, so before I wanna, I wanna talk about the mistakes because with the rapid scale that you've gone into, and you've mentioned several already, and I would like to dive in to a couple of those, but I kind of wanna go backwards a little bit.
And you're talking about being in front of people. Um, me checking out your social media, um, on your Facebook best exterior cleaning, and then your LinkedIn page, you've got some awesome digital content. Um, how did you, did you hire somebody to do that or are you the digital creator? Because there's a i there's a really, there's, there's really good quality to your video in a number of different ways, and I was telling you before we came on the show, but I'd like to share with the listeners.
I don't know if they'll pick up on the same thing as I, but there's, there's kind of like a, you know, a lot of exterior cleaning companies do a lot of different, like we all have our different style, but to me, Brad, your style is, it's, it's extremely authentic. It's very. Kind of like calming and nurturing and feel super comfortable.
And like me as the viewer, it makes me feel like, oh wow, what a, just like, so easy if I call these people, like, it would be so easy to do business with them. But this, like, this kind of like feeling that comes through in your video. But tell me about your video creation, because video's huge and you've definitely done it extremely well.
Well, thanks. I, um, I feel the opposite. I feel like I'm just doing my best to try and figure it out and I don't know. Um, I think that you naturally end up coming out with, uh, like a style. Um, uh, to answer your, your question that, uh, I've hired some different people over the years, uh, over the, this like year and a half of doing video, um, are my.
By salesman slash like marketing, a person I hired, uh, at the end of last year, he's now helping me with like, he has a video background. So the problem is we're just so busy all the time. It's like trying to get these videos put together. Yeah. And done. But we have like, um, so we're like building more videos.
I create, I typically create the script. The, and uh, you know, to be honest, a lot of it could be, I could do more ahead of time to prepare. Um. Most of my stuff is like one-liner, uh, put toge, a bunch of one-liners kind of put together, or I'll voiceover as well. So like I'll record something and I'll say like one line, and then I'll shoot something else, and then I'll record and I'll say another one line and like I just kinda chop it up.
And then the way it's kind of put together, um, I also, because I am like, I do come across as a little more like, like I can come across as too calm where it's like boring. So I have to like, and then camera, like a boring person seems even more boring. And so you have to like amp up yourself. And so these videos are like me as like try and be animated.
Right? Um, one, I've done video for the last like 15 years, so you definitely were doing video and real estate and. I was also used to, the thing I left out is I used to compete in drifting. Okay. And so, I don't know if you know what that is, but it's like car racing. Okay. Um, and so I had videos with that and so, um, that tra that taught me a lot about like your energy level because it's really hard to sound excited when you're losing or when you completely blow up a $10,000 motor and you are not happy and you are trying to like, not seem boring on camera.
Right. And so that is tough, but when you're winning, it's really easy to be excited about it. Mm-hmm. So, and it's really easy to have good content when you're like, yeah, but this is blah, blah. You, like, they get you. Right. You got a card and you're just like jacked 'cause you're excited. So, so we're talking a little bit about the acting element.
Yeah. So the acting element is definitely one of those like. And, and I found that I essentially have to have somebody do the recording and editing because I'm too ultra critical about myself. Hmm. And I will take forever trying to get, and I'll just never do it. Like, I'll, I'll keep recording and keep recording, set up a tripod, do all this stuff, and I'll just never do it.
'cause I'll just be like, I didn't think that was great. That was terrible. That was terrible. Oh, I, I forgot that word. I, blah, blah, blah. Versus like, I'm, I'm so the opposite. I'll just do it. And I'm like, it's great. Put it out there. I, I am so jealous of that. And, and the thing I do too is that there's like, somewhere, there's a ton of like, like stuff that was never used that I'm just being like, super goofy.
Um, I like to just get like, like just be goofy and, and, and do like funny things and say funny things. And it gets me kind of like in this like fun, happy mood to do videos, but I can't, it's hard to do it by myself. 'cause I have this like weird, uh, I don't know, maybe it's the class clown from being like the kid that always got in trouble in school.
But like, I will like the person that's recording, I will just like mess around and I like, and you like, make 'em laugh and it's fun and then it like, and then we go into like recording the stuff and it's a good time. Yeah. And so it's hard for me to shoot footage by myself. You know, the thing for someone like me, which I know most of the people looking at your video content, are not gonna be the Sheila Smeltzers of the world that come from deep industry background, that are trained in safety, that are looking for professional skills and tactics being used.
But I see that in your videos. I see, um, I see skill craft, I see safety, um, like, like professional image, like all those things. Those are the things that I am like really loved about your video content because that puts an image out to the world that we are professionals in exterior cleaning, right? Like, this is an industry and that's what I care about.
Um, so anyway, I just wanna give you kudos for that. And all of our listeners, you know, just seriously go check out Brad's content. I think. You guys will really enjoy it. Um, but let's, let's talk about some of the difficult stuff. Can we Yeah, yeah. I'm an open book. So you have talked about systems, like basically you created chaos because you're a selling machine and you create a chaos because yeah, you can sell the jobs all day long, but then you need the operations to be able to fulfill them.
You need the finance, you need the administrative. Um, and so it sounds like you have the sale, you have the sales and the marketing pretty well intact. That's great. Leads coming in. Um, but now you have to actually fulfill that. And these are the different roles of the company. Um, what, I mean, it sounds like you tackled operations first and you're kind of learning the finance and whatnot along the way.
Am I right by saying that? Yeah. Yeah. We're, um, the thing that we, so we waited till. I didn't really wait. I think we had to wait, I guess, till things slowed down enough to be able to put the effort that it needed. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the, the thing that we are really concentrating on, right, uh, like I'm at the tail end of is our hiring process, firing, uh, training, um, doing different ma giving people a roadmap that when they get hired on, they can see how they can make more money.
Yep. Just trying to put these like really important steps in that bring on a good quality person that will, you know, guaranteed we're gonna hire people that just don't, they're they're, they're just, they don't, aren't looking for a, um. Career in exterior cleaning. They're just looking for a job for now.
And maybe they have a good attitude. Maybe they, we get, you know, there's, you'll meet. Like I had one guy who was great and he was just between jobs, he was tech sales and he did, and he just cleaned and he just was looking for a job for now and he was solid. And that was like my first hire and he was amazing.
Um, he now is back into sec tech sales and he is happy doing that. But, uh, but what I wanted to do was find those people, uh, like build this for those people that maybe are. Like how I was, where I just didn't have a path. I came outta high school. I barely graduated high school. I like didn't really have a path, I didn't know what to do.
Mm. And granted, I think I'm more resourceful than some, but like the people that are just doing their best to be like, all right, I just, I need a job and I, I want something that has some kind of a future, right? I don't wanna go work at like some fast food joint and be there forever. Like, I wanna do something where there's a future and we can have a good time.
And so the goal is to have to where, and I'm, I'm not quite to the full build out, but the goal is to show somebody how they can go from like an entry level person to being the operator of this business. Mm-hmm. Because ultimately I don't want to be the operator of the business. And so yeah, creating, creating careers and uh, um, that kind of, that turnkey operation and yeah, you're right, it takes a playbook and it takes systems so that no matter who's doing the thing, they know how to do it.
And that definitely relieves you and your responsibilities as the owner. Um, so like you're hiring, 'cause like what I'm hearing is that you're, you, you're trying to create career pathways for people in your community and you sounds like you're focusing, like you're employee kind of avatar is peop like people coming outta high school and, or like maybe in the middle of college and like, uh, what am I doing?
Yeah. Are those, is that kind of who you're trying to attract as tech? Yeah, for sure. Okay. That's, that's definitely who I'm trying to attract. Or just somebody that hasn't. Maybe they're, they've tried a bunch of different things and just their, their career path hasn't landed yet. So how are you enticing them?
Oh, like, uh, so like, our pay structure, we're, we're now doing a percentage based pay and we're, um, for, if you're a trained, um, like an actual, like trained employee, um, well I call 'em team members 'cause I think that's a better way to put it. Yep. Uh, but, uh, we are doing a four level system. Uh, your first, your, uh, when you first hire on, you're an entry level or el um, and you get, you get a hourly pay only.
You have very strict, like, these are the things that you need to do. We give you an evaluation on the first day, um, from the person that is working with you. And then you do, uh, and then you as the. The new hire, you do like your own evaluation and then the next day that the, your manager and you will talk about it and just kind of go over the details and make sure that there's no disconnect on, like somebody thinks they're doing really well and somebody's not doing well or whatever.
So they're on the same page. And so then they have two weeks in that and then they, we do an evaluation at the end of the two weeks and then they, same kind of thing, but they, we need to see progression and a good attitude, consistency, showing up, those kind of things. And then they can move to a level one.
And I thought it was really important to go into like showing a. A win and a progression. Mm-hmm. Within the first like, couple weeks, because that show, like, people will build on momentum and you're like, oh, I went from, you know, this much an hour to this much an hour. Awesome. I'm making, I'm now gonna make more money and I have something to work for.
And then go from level one. You still don't get, uh, it's still only hourly. Yep. You're, you're on still a tight leash of what you are allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do, and how you're and what's expected of you. Yep. And then you start learning how to build, like how to build the skills to what we need.
And we have a list of these different skills and these trainings and you go, you start going through 'em and you start learning. And then from there you can become a level two. Which a level two is somebody that can pass the basic skills test for all our services and then we're able, and then they're able to, um.
Essentially be able to be left on a job, do the work, and somebody will go through our production manager, who is for now my business partner, will go through and double check the work. And typically these are commercial jobs. Uh, and so, or they'll work with somebody that's above them who is a, like, essentially a journeyman, which is a level three.
And then they will go through and just double check the person's work. And that person will get a percentage of pay. A level two, level three will get a, a bigger percentage. And so they'll be able to, um, kind of have this figured out and they can go through the steps. And then the next one obviously is production manager.
And, and so then we'll ultimately have a production manager. But what we're working on is getting the field tech part really dialed in. Mm-hmm. Then. My business partner's, the, uh, production manager for now until we can kind of really cement what that job really means and how it all works. And then, um, I am essentially acting as the office manager, uh, to do that.
I also leverage, um. Virtual assistants. And so we use virtual assistants for certain things like our scheduling, which is pretty wild, that somebody can be really good at scheduling in a country that they've never been Right. And doing services they've never performed, but it's working. Mm-hmm. And so we're like trying to leverage these different things to make it all kind of come together.
And as we build ourselves out of, uh, as we build every position, we can kind of work our way. So like, my goal is in 2027 to have a production manager Okay. And then in, and then see how that goes. And it still might be in 2027, we end up with an office manager. But really we need to stabilize the company and get, uh, and have profit.
Because what people don't talk about is like, when you grow that fast, there's no profit in it. Like, it's all just like, you know, it is not even just the wraps and the like. Equipment. It's, it's the mistakes that I've made that have cost us probably, you know, yeah. 50,000, a hundred thousand dollars or more.
Yeah. I have some questions for you. Um, first I wanna go back to your tech level system, and I'm, uh, I'm working on something very similar in my company. I mean, honestly, it's pretty much identical. My question is, do, do your tech levels, do they involve, uh, do, is there a differentiator on height work?
Meaning if you're a level one, you're on the ground. If you're level two, you can do up to 24. If you're up to, if you're a level three, you can do up to 40 foot ladder work, like, or do you have anything like that built in? No, because. Um, I know it gets tricky 'cause it's not ideal, but it's, I I, I do wanna share a little, a little hint of gold.
Okay. If you, in your payroll system, if you can identify your technicians in a level one, two, or three, and if your level one you are, their job description is to stay on the ground. Okay? Then whenever you get audited for work comp, you can run those reports and you're gonna pay a heck of a lot less for those people that are training and on the ground as a rate per 100 of their payroll.
So I just, this, this comes up a lot. I have a lot of, um, guys that are new in the industry. I just got a message from a competitor the other day saying like, Hey Sheila, can I talk to you about workman's comp? I'm going through like one of my first audits and um, so there's some really creative ways that we can, uh, work around that, but just, I'm just kind of throwing that out there.
I would, I would consider that maybe, maybe I should do that, at least at minimum with, uh, entry level. Because in the first two weeks they, like, they could probably just be on the ground. The hard part though, and that's, that's not gonna save you that much. But if you do, you do a lot of interior window cleaning.
To be honest, we're trying to get away from window cleaning altogether. Oh, you are? Okay. Well, yeah, we do. Our big thing is roof cleaning. Okay. Yes. And that's where it's like, hard to say like a level one. And the issue that we have too is that you could, you could have somebody that's like, oh, I could be up on a roof, no problem.
And then you get 'em up there and they're shaken like a leaf. Right. So we'd rather get them up there, like a little taste of it. Yep. And just see how it is. And then we're not like investing a bunch in somebody and then they're turning around and saying like, oh, I don't. I can't, I can't handle being up on roof.
And you're like, well that's like last year 50% of our, our work was roof cleaning. So like you're absolutely right when you're bringing people on to be able to get them a skills assessment of some sort that is going to get them into similar scenarios of what they're gonna be doing on the job. Because if you can nix that out right off the bat, you're gonna save yourself so much time and money with that person.
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So like, I like the idea of saving money with l and i, I just don't think that like, because so much of us is roof cleaning, it's like, yeah. I, I just don't see it being, and we're actually rebranding, this is a thing that I learned too, um, is that like we're best exterior cleaning, even though like.
It actually works really well for the commercial side because people will think of like exterior cleaning as a commercial thing. Like that's a name or like that's something you would say, but like home house cleaning is not like that. Like people don't think of like, oh I need an exterior cleaner.
They're like, I need my roof cleaned, I need my windows, I need gutters. I need that. But I named it 'cause I didn't wanna pigeonhole myself into a certain thing. 'cause if I would've said like best window cleaning and then I was, now I'd be like, I don't want to do window cleaning. Yeah. It's the least profitable thing for us.
And like it only accounted for one sixth of our or less of our business last year. And I'm okay with that. And I we're actually actively like. We're actively pursuing everything else, and we're just like, if people want windows, we'll talk about it, but we're like trying to not do it. Um, you can't buy a bigger, a big enough squeegee to make the windows go that much faster.
Yep. So it's, we're more like roof cleaning, pressure washing, and that's, we're where we are. So, um, yeah, definitely have your tickets. You're smart. I mean, we're doing the same thing. Um, I was talking to an employee yesterday in a one-on-one, a technician and I mean, we were talking about this very same thing.
He is like, you know, we just, we make so much more money doing the roof cleanings and the house washing and you know, all the commercial stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I know. But we are like a plus. Pro services is number one in the market in any SEO search, in any way you look at it. That is the service that brings people in the door to our company.
I'm like, sorry, it's never going away. Unfortunately, we're the best at it, and it's just not going away. But if it gets people in the door and you know, hey, that's okay, because if we can do the other, um, high margin services, then that really helps us be holistically offer, like offering holistically to our clients.
And so anyway, I just, it's you're, what you're saying is absolutely correct. So remind me where you're located. I'm in, I'm in southeastern, North Carolina. Okay. Yeah. Nice. So Brad, um. Uh, hiring. We, we, we are only touching on some of the, I could go for hours. I know you're like, 30 minutes and then we're gonna start writing this down.
And I was like, yeah. Okay. We should stay on like one topic because I can talk for hours about this. I love this business. Me too. Me too. I'm the same. Um, so I think what, like, it's, so with your hiring and then now, so where are you at right now? So we're coming into spring season and you grew up real fast and then you had to, you had to kind of slow down a bit, implement some systems.
You've done a lot of implementing, of training, hiring and all, and all of that. So that's all your employee stuff and building your team, your operations. So what does the spring 2026 look like for you? Oh, it is getting off to a slow start. 'cause we were focusing so much on the systems building and those things.
Yep. Um, but we say that our, our year is from um, it's essentially like march to end of Feb or like the end of February. Because what happens is that, 'cause we do multifamily, um, a lot of, uh, roof cleaning and gutter cleaning all the way up until it starts generally starts freezing out in February. Okay. So like, we had weird year this year, but we had snow last week, which was, normally we have like two or three snow days and a bunch of freezing in the middle of February, and then so all the work stops and so we generally try and wrap up all our work.
By then, um, this is, a lot of this is based upon historical stuff from my business partner and what, and then it, it mirrored pretty well, uh, last year, uh, this last year. And so we, uh, we generally take like a month break where it just stops. And then, so now like we say like, oh, we're starting our year. Like this is the beginning of our year.
We have one tech in the field right now. My business partner fills in when we ha where we have to. Mm-hmm. And we're just kind of getting going. Okay. And so our spring is the beginning of our year. We have, I don't know, the, so far this year we've probably done, like,
we've probably done like, uh, half a million dollars in bids so far for commercial. We're getting like crazy big, uh, opportunities. Like, it's, it's pretty wild. 'cause the more you just. This is where like we've also talked about like not wanting to do residential. Mm-hmm. Uh, or just doing it in like such a low capacity that it can cover our bills, our base bills.
'cause it's cash flow constantly. Mm-hmm. And then really just focusing on the commercial side of it, because it's all about filling capacity, right? That's one learn learning lesson is that it's all about, like if you have a person, uh, out there, you need to make sure their full capacity is full fill. And so it's a lot easier to do that with commercial jobs because you have such a large bucket of hours that you can just distribute among people and, but you need this volume and then cash flow is really slow.
So, um, what my spring looks like is, um, just trying to keep that one, one residential person running. Mm-hmm. And we, uh, and then. We're hiring some, um, entry level people and we're getting these commercial stuff starting to get accepted. And we also have some reoccurring, some ones from last year that are gonna need to be done.
And so we're starting to see that ball start to roll, um, by April. Um, we should be, we should have April decently full and we should just be able to keep rolling. Uh, and yeah, that's what, that's what it looks like. You said 2027, you're gonna have a production manager. How many techs are you envisioning for you to validate a production manager or what kind of revenue?
So we're, so our goal for this year is a million dollars. Okay. And. And we, and had gone through and looked at our, uh, we did like a projected p and l and trying to figure out like where, where we, and looking at our last, uh, p and l looking at like where we lost money and where we can kind of pick up, um, like make it better.
Mm-hmm. And so the, the goal in really like having, having
two, so like doing that, we should be able to, we should be able to do it with like three, three techs and one of those, and, and like an entry level, like a, like a beginning person. Mm-hmm. But what's probably gonna happen is we're probably gonna have like multiple, uh, beginning, uh, like new people. Uh, we fired everybody but one person at the end of the year because they started to have like, we, we had a mess.
And we had people that were breaking stuff without saying or not saying anything. We had people that were doing really terrible jobs and just not showing up. And so we just had this big mess. So we have one tech right now, and we're just going to, we're gonna hire on some new people and my business partner is gonna be in the field more training.
And then we're just gonna try and organically grow this up. So really we having three the million dollars with three techs is about like, right. Um, for what we're looking at for, for our commercial work. And so we should, we should be able to do that. Um, we'll see about. How that really pans out. 'cause the question is, there's a lot of unknowns.
Um, we were overstaffed last year at certain times, and we could have, uh, spread out some work a little better and had less. And that's a good learning lesson as it sometimes you like see these like giant jobs come and you're, you're like, oh my God. We had like a $50,000 roof cleaning job in June, and so we had three techs and we got it done really quickly, but then it was really difficult to keep those three, those guys working.
Mm-hmm. Because when you're, when you can tackle 40 hours of work in one day, it's, it's hard to feed that machine when you're brand new and you have nothing reoccurring. Right. It's like all new, other than we had like certain communities that would need to get done like a couple times a year, but we had like, no, nothing reoccurring.
So we're just like scrambling every day to try and make sure you're, we're getting 'em, uh. Yeah, you just, does that answer your question? Yeah. You just, you just solved, I think one of your own little puzzle pieces about, about how to maintain it all with the recurring revenue. And I'm just wondering, um, your, your business partner, if he's kind of like the owner operator type, um, would he be your production manager?
Yeah, so he's gonna be the production manager for now. Mm-hmm. Um, the issue that we have, and maybe he might be a production manager for longer term than what we're thinking. Mm-hmm. Um, but the goal is to keep growing. And, um, the issue that, and, and I think this is where we don't fully know yet, is that 'cause he's never run a business with like really good systems.
It's always been like him out with a couple guys or whatever, and he just kind of like runs it Uhhuh. Um, and so this is the question, is he a manager? Yeah, he's a, he's a good manager. Okay. Uh, it's just a matter of like, under, he's, he's great with coaching people and training people. Okay. The problem that we had is just the organization of the training.
Mm. He's like, not having the system, not having the system of like, it's funny 'cause like we were talking about this the other day. It was like, well, how do we train somebody? Like, he's like, well, normally I would go up and I would get them on the roof and we would clean and I would show 'em kind of how we're doing it and I would kind of work 'em into it.
And I'm like, okay, well where's our problems we've been having? And it's like, our problems have actually been having the ground cleanup where, you know, getting, making sure around the house, excuse me, around the house and everything looks good. It's like, well, why wouldn't you start with a person? Like have them be on the ground cleaning and making and understanding that part and you do the technical part and then you work them into, up to doing the technical part.
And it's like kind of changing some of those like mindset around training and working through it. And maybe that isn't the right way to go, but it's like, what we are doing wasn't working. So how do we do it to where it will work? We can, we can walk, we can stair step somebody into it. And that kind of came down to that like, what if we do levels and what if we train in a certain way that makes it so they, they care more?
And that's also a, one of the biggest things to kind of wrap your head around is how do you get somebody to care? Hmm. Yeah. It's really hard to inject your passion into people. Um. That that is, that is very tricky. Um, go, going back to the training part, um, I'm gonna have somebody on this podcast who 'cause training is, training is probably, in my opinion, training is the most difficult part.
About having a company like we do. Um, and I'm sure training is difficult across the board, um, with all different types of businesses and a lot of people don't do it. Right. Um, there's a, a woman that I know, her name's Amanda Powell, and she does mid management training. She comes into companies of all sizes and she trains you how to train.
I can tell you that there's really four components of it, and I'm gonna bring her on because this would be a great show. But you know, there's the what, what are we training the purpose behind it and all of that. Then there's the how. So you gotta teach and show how to do it, right? Then there's the assessment.
So now you're as assessing and you're grading and you're giving them a score. There's, right, and then the final part that she says that everybody gets wrong is that feedback loop. And the feedback loop is coming from the person that is being trained back to the trainer to say, this is how I learned better, or I would've learned this better.
Doing that, or ba ba. And that feedback loop, root loop is really the most crucial part of the whole thing. So you know it like that. That's the framework right there. So, um, then it's like how, right? There's LMS systems and you know, like you can, like, you, you have to be able to have it in a way that anybody, if you have a production manager, shop manager or an operations manager, whatever, that anybody coming into the company, it's like, all right, here we go.
This is how we hire, this is how we onboard, this is orientation. This is the training. Okay, great. Now they're becoming a level one tech and building all that out. Are you doing that on any type of a platform or what are you building it out on? So we got all the written down, um, in Google Sheets, like all the structure.
Um, that's where we're like starting off of, uh, my, one of my next things is like trying to, is find a, a system that we can, they can go through all the modules and stuff. If you have a recommendation, that'd be great. Mm-hmm. Is like to going through the modules and we're gonna be doing video. Um, so like having a lot of it as video.
Yep. Um, and then I, I totally agree with the feedback loop thing and like all of our assessments and everything also have a, the other side of it, it has the, the, the employee side where they fill out details of like, about their perspective on it and how they, how they, like, what they think of it, if they, what they think of their performance, what they think of the company, what, you know.
So the idea is to get alignment throughout it. Yeah. So you understand like from the get go, like your very first day, I want that person to fill out, like, hey, yeah, this is what I thought. And also it. It's going to be expected that they fill it out properly. Mm-hmm. And this is where you start to weed out some of these people.
I was telling, I was actually talking to my bookkeeper the other day about it, and I'm like, I'm essentially building a filter. There you go. Like this stuff that this, this hiring and this onboarding, this training as a filter. I was an iron worker, I was a Union iron worker. I went through a four year apprenticeship and I, and every, and you look back at it, you're like, God, every part of it was a filter.
It was like, show up no matter what, do the, you know, like fill, do the test, do the training, do these things, do this to the level they want. If you don't do it, you can just leave. We don't need you. It was like that was a heavy handed filter. Like it was like, and there was people that like, I couldn't believe it.
I'm like, there's people that are broke that are just struggling and they drop out and I'm like, I am not good at school. I'm not good at, but I show up and I give it my best. Mm-hmm. And that's really all they cared about. And that's really all we care about too. Like, I don't care if you can, if you can't even read the stuff, I mean like, that will be a little rough, but like, if you have a hard time with it, like we can help you.
Like, I want people that show up that have a good attitude that I can trust, I can rely on. Like, I don't need, I don't need you to be a college graduate. Like it does, that stuff doesn't even matter to me. And so it's uh, definitely that alignment and that feedback loop of, and understanding from their perspective.
I think that I. Business. One of the thing that can make you successful, and especially selling, is being able to step out of your own perspective and into somebody else's perspective. Sure. And that's, that's what's gonna get you the sales. It's not gonna be like you having like tons of people clean stuff or can put a roof on a house or whatever.
Mm-hmm. But when you can really step back and think about what their perspective is mm-hmm. And how you can, how you can think from, from their side of the table. Mm-hmm. Then it's like, okay, well what do we, uh, like this is how we can make it work. Right. So, yeah. I lo I love that. Um, also, just back to the question about how do you make employees care?
I think really a lot of what you and I talked about with the feedback and whatnot, I think that's part of it. Right When you engage our, when we engage our people in the process and we want to know their thoughts and you know, like asking them if, if you or me doing this training, what would you do different?
And, you know, getting them engaged. I think that really does that, that's one of the pieces to be able to get that care from them. So yeah. Really good conversation, Brad. Um, we could, we could talk for a long time. Oh, I could keep going. Definitely. I, yeah, I have like a whole theory on how to, how to, like, we, so like me, and last thing really quick, I know we're getting an hour, but like, me and my business partner sat down one day and we're like, if best six year cleaning was a game, a video game, whatever it was, what would need to, what would it need to make it successful?
What would you need to win? And it's like, and this is from the employee's per perspective. Yeah. And if you think about it that way of like most jobs, if it was a video game, it would be the most confusing, boring video game you've ever played in your life. You'd have no clue how to win. You have no clue how to do any of this.
You would just, you would just get in there and you would just start walking around and trying to figure it out. Yeah. Um, but if you, um, but if you have clear rules and expectations that you can do, you can get there and you can get, like, you can win and you feel good about it at every level. And, and if you don't, you, it's game over.
And so that's the way we try and focus on it is like, where do you, where can you gamify this but also make it extremely simple? And that's been the biggest thing mm-hmm. Is making it simple. 'cause it's so easy to over complicate this to be like, I don't know, like, I want to put all these little, you put all these little trap doors and all these different things.
Then before you know it, you're like, I, I don't know how an employee's gonna know this because I don't even know what's going on. Right. So anyways, um, I, I love, I love how simplicity on this podcast, I swear simplicity comes up almost every time. And ironically, and I ironically it is the first of the five leadership abilities.
If you can create simplicity that is a high quality, uh, as a leader and for the reason that you just said. Right. And I love your idea about gamifying and thinking about, ha that is a very good perspective on. Really putting yourself in because you were talking about sales and putting yourself in the buyer's mind and in their perspective.
But we also, you were saying putting yourself in your employee's perspective, and that's gold, because if we can do that, we can create that experience as business owners, we can create whatever we want. Right? Every day you're selling your employees every day. Every day you're selling them on showing up and working hard for you.
And they want, and there's certain things that they want, especially this like younger generation where they want to feel heard and they wanna feel like they're contributing and they wanna feel like they have control. Yep. Having, um, having that built into your business, it is what's going to get, keep them sold every day and keep them showing up and keep them making it happen for you because you'll never.
He, like, you can't do it without him. Right. I can't, I can't, like I randomly go and do jobs and I can barely get out of bed the next day. So like I and I, I do go to the gym. I've been getting better at it. Yeah. I've been getting in better shape, but like, I can't physically do this work. I can sell it and I can build this business, but I can't do the work physically.
Mm-hmm. I know, I know. Just enough. And so, and that's the way I want to keep it. Yeah. And so, uh, so yeah, so definitely trying to make it so people feel like they have, you know, they feel like they have a purpose in selling them essentially every day, but, you know Yeah. In a way that you're, the people feel like that they're get selling themselves.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. Well, I, I can't wait to see you at the next Mastermind and kind of keep checking in. I'm gonna. I am gonna hold you to this goal of, uh, first of all, a million dollars this year and also your 2027, um, having a production manager next. Yeah, I, the, the idea about that is having a built out production manager, like the job, and then deciding, um, kind of where we want to go from there with like, um, you're right, like my business partner could just, he is more of a, like a hands-on want to be in it.
And so like, if he wants to be the production manager, but there, there are bigger things that he could do. And we have like, we need to build out a bit, a better bidding process for, um, for commercial stuff where we can train other people to do it and not just have him do it. Yeah. Uh, and so there's certain things that like, I think it would be really helpful to have a production manager, but, um, other than him.
But yeah, I mean it's, it's all learning experience and it's all like, we'll see where when we, yeah. If I were to, when we get there, if I were to build out the most simple job description, job description for a production manager, it'd be like three responsibilities. It would be, theyd have to be a rule follower.
They now have to, they have to be able to follow a system and actually be able to create a system. So they have to have that, they have to be able to hold people accountable 100%. And they have to be problem solvers. Yeah. Those three things. And you're gonna have a kick ass production manager. Yeah. Yeah.
And, and having, and from there, it's like, what, what we're talking about, like building it out is like just giving them the right tools and having things written out that they can help, help facilitate some of those things. Yeah. And, and having him live it. Of like, this is what needs to happen. Yep. Um, so yeah.
I agree. Cool. Well, um, all right, well we'll see you at the next mastermind. Oh yeah, go ahead. You wanted one more thing? I know you told me this and we'll try and wrap it up at the end of the hour, is that, um, the huge mastermind's been done really great for me. Okay. With, um, understanding, um, some of these processes and, and networking with some people that really like getting me in the room with people that are doing, are, are actively working at a level I want to be at.
Yeah. Whether they're one step ahead of me, whether they're, you know, whether they're a hundred thousand dollars ahead of me or millions ahead of me. Or tens of millions ahead of me. Like it's really put me in a room with these people that, that get it. And they are, everybody's working towards a common goal and I think it's really important to just really invest in yourself and also invest in getting in the room with people that are where you want to be.
Yes. Um, uh, likewise, the, the huge for me is like we are a community of entrepreneurs and it, there's really a Go-Giver mentality in it where we are here to help each other out. And the really, that's, that's what I love and that's why we're here on the podcast so that we can share experiences. Um, I love that we have a lot of new kind of budding entrepreneurs in the industry that are on the podcast because.
There's a lot of 'em out there and they need help. And anything that you shared today, Brad, I promise, is gonna help somebody, um, avoid a pitfall and mistake. Um, you know, that could save 'em thousands of dollars and a lot of time. Um, and also I think there's a common thread of listening to your story and saying, yeah, I made that mistake too.
Like, okay, it's not just me. Right? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, we we're definitely all here to help each other out and um, that's really what the huge community is all about. And um, and like business is business. No matter if you're at a billion or if you're at a hundred thousand, really the principals are the same.
And, um, a lot of us didn't go to school for this. We don't have MBAs. We, you know, we are learning as we go. And so to be able to learn from other people's mistakes is huge. Yeah. My wife actually went to Duke for her MBA. Nice. And she works at Amazon and she could not stomach. The life that I live, the entrepreneur life.
Yeah. So, um, I would say that most people that go to MBA don't, they, they can't, they don't do it. Right. They, they do it for somebody else. They do it for somebody else. So heard. Yep. Cool. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Thank you, Brad. Yeah. I look forward to seeing you again. We'll continue our conversation and, um, yeah, best of luck to you in 2026.
Thanks. All right. Have a great day. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for. Podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's it. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the used Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Fred and Christine Hodge of Clearview Washing, an exterior cleaning company in New Jersey that Fred started with his dad at 19 and that the couple later transformed into a fast-growing, systems-driven business. Fred shares how the company began with window cleaning and gradually expanded into gutters, power washing, and more, while Christine explains how joining the business brought a major shift toward structure, accountability, and scalable growth.
 
Fred and Christine break down the biggest changes that helped them grow: moving from paper-based operations to software and systems, building a stronger hiring process, creating clear roles, and treating team members like career employees instead of temporary labor. They also talk candidly about working together as spouses, the boundaries they had to create between business and home life, and how building culture, confidence, and leadership within their team has become a core part of the company’s success. Finally, they share what it takes to move from one growth stage to the next, including why their path to $5 million now depends less on hustle in the field and more on elite sales talent, operational leadership, and continued investment in people.
 
Resources:
Clearview Washing
The Process CEO (Christine Hodge)
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook Group
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hey, it's Sid at the Huge Transformations podcast, and I'm really delighted you are here. It feels like it's been a whirlwind since the last time we recorded an episode, and it's like this. I just got back from six days in Mexico for a nice reset with my wife before we get started with a busy, busy cleaning season in our business here in Montana.
And before that I was in Nashville for three and a half days for our mastermind. The huge Mastermind. And that's where we get, we get 40, 50, sometimes. We have 60 people get together in one room. These are all sharp, growth-minded business owners that really want to accelerate their business. They want to 10 x their business in the next three to five years, and we spend.
Intense time together, working on process, working on a tool, working on a way to maximize their business. And this one was no different. It was probably the most in-depth process orchestration we've done on new product development, on, on role creation to help people advance and accelerate their business.
And I'm, I usually don't bring this up, but I wanted to bring it up because maybe you as a listener, maybe you've got a business with, you know, five or more employees and you're over half a million, maybe over 700,000 in revenue, and you want to get to a million, you want to get to 5 million, but you feel like you're plateaued.
If that's you, you gotta check out the Mastermind and just see if it's a right fit for you. 'cause it's designed. For people in that range. They're, they've got five or more employees, they're over 700,000 in revenue, and they want to get to 2 million, 5 million. We really want to grow a business that will grow and operate without you.
That's what the huge Mastermind is for. So check it out@thehugemastermind.com. That link will be in the show notes. Didn't mean for that to sound like a, a promotion or advertisement, but it's, it's so valuable for people that are in that situation that feel like they've plateaued, that have kind of outgrown their capabilities, but they know they've got a lot more potential left.
They just need to help. They need to find someone to help unleash that potential. So that's what the mastermind's for. But here's one thing that we decided to do last week as the, uh, the mastermind sort of leadership group. We publish. We published a book strictly for our mastermind members, um, little less than a year ago called the $10,000 Ideals book and the 10 K idea Book m.
What that is, is that, you know, at a lot of our quarterly masterminds, we will have our members stand up and contribute and tell us what is your 10 K idea. The framework for the 10 K ideas has gotta be something that you have that's strategic or practically, um, tactical that they have, have actually done in their business in the past six months that has generated over $10,000 in fresh revenue in a 30 to 90 day period.
So we just compiled 14 of these ideas and put 'em in a book that we could give to new mastermind members to help them jumpstart their membership in the Mastermind. What's really cool about that is each one of these ideas is worth over $10,000. Last year at the huge convention when, um, uh, before I introduced one of the speakers, I showed that book and I just turned to a page and opened it, and there was one particular.
Tactic that was in there that I read and I'm like, guys, I'm gonna go home and do this in my business. It's a tactic we had never applied before. This was the end of August, right in the slow, the doldrums of summer. And I went home, gave it to my leadership team, my office manager. We sent out four emails to half of our database and one text message, four emails, one text message with this one specific tactic.
And I wanted to prove that we would generate over $10,000 in fresh revenue. We ended up generating $26,400 in new revenue just from that one tactic executed one time. I was like, damnit, this is good. It works. So we decided to make this $10,000 ideal book available to anybody that wants a copy. So if you go to the 10 K book info, let me say that cleaner, 10 K, that's one zero.
In the letter K 10 K book.info, you can get your free copy of the $10,000 idea book. I hope you do, and I hope you utilize it and implement some of the stuff that's in there. A couple day ideas in there that we've executed. You're gonna go, this is too simple. I can't believe it. Like it'll never work. Do it.
It will work. It's already been proven. It's already worked for many, many others. And it'll work for you too. So this is our, my free gift to you. Go to the 10 k book info, get your copy of the 10,000 idea book and add it to your business repertoire and jumpstart your season with extra 10,000, 50,000, a hundred thousand in revenue.
And just, you know, next time you see me at the convention or you know you hear me on the podcast, just gimme a thumbs up and say, thanks man. That was. Awesome. Make sure and get yours. Okay. That's a long lead up to today's show. Today's show, I had no idea how much I was going to enjoy the conversation and interview with our guests, Fred and Christine Hodge, Fred and Christine Hodge.
They own a power wash or an exterior window cleaning company. Clear, clear wash. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Frank. Christine, I messed up the name of your company. They've got a great company in New Jersey, this exterior cleaning. They've been in business for about 20 years and they have gone into a, a strong growth mode in the past five years.
They've more than doubled the size of the company and they become leaders in the industry, teaching other people how to implement systems, implement good hiring, and hire leaders, and retain leaders in their company though. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did and learn as much as I did from Fred and Christine Hodge.
There are guests. Fasten your seatbelt. This was fun and fast paced, and you're gonna want to take notes. Just know that all the notes are in the show notes. Every link, everything we mention in the show notes, check it out. Fred and Christine Hodge. Hey everybody, this is Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, part of the huge, um, the huge convention.
I'm excited today 'cause I've got Fred and Christine Hodge together on the podcast and we get to, I I've, we, we've met at the huge convention. I've had a couple conversations with you guys. I've never had a deep conversation where I go, let me hear the backstory. Let me hear how you get started. And, you know, some of the growing pains along the way.
'cause you guys have grown a, a pretty significant, uh, exterior cleaning company there in New Jersey. And it's Clearview Clearview Washing, right? There's a clear view. Clearview Washing, Clearview Washing. So first of all, Fred, Christine, thank you very much. How are you guys doing? You're in the, the land of ice and cold or how things in Jersey right now?
It's cold, it's snowy. We're dreaming of warmer days, but we're almost there. True, true. Do you always feel like, I mean, it's like the, I I don't know what the, uh, the bias is, the mental bias, but when you, when the sun's shining, you think it's always gonna shine. And when it's cold as hell, you think it'll never be warm again.
And we know that's not true. Yeah. But it sure feels that way. It sure does. It sure does. I mean, today it's like 40 degrees and it feels like summertime because Yeah. I don't feel like I need a jacket. I've been so conditioned to the cold that this feels warm to me right now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great.
Well, that's great. Well, I want, I want to dig into your guys like the origin story of Clearview Washing. And if I understand correctly, Fred. Believe you started as a wild-eyed 19-year-old. You're like, I'm gonna go start a window cleaning company, 19 years old, 2004. And you just started, what, uh, what was your motivation to start a window cleaning company?
Do you have any family members that are business owners or like, why would you do such a crazy thing? So it's, uh, there's a combination of everything going on here. So yes, I do have a family of entrepreneurs, as does Christine. Um, and I started the company with my dad. Um, he didn't start, I didn't start it.
We started it together. Um, I was studying entrepreneurship at Rowan University in Southern New Jersey, and I knew I wanted to become an entrepreneur, but I did not realize I was gonna be getting into the exterior cleaning game. Um, Monday day, on a Saturday, my dad woke me up and he is like, we're going to clean some windows.
I'm like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, uh, he said, we're going to clean some windows. I'm like, what? And he still, he, he says, credit, I give you credit to this day. He is like, most 19 year olds wouldn't have popped out of bed and said, all right, let's go clean some windows. But he had found an experienced window cleaner in Pennsylvania and he had found a job through putting ads in the newspaper.
'cause that's what people did back in, still in 2004. And he found a client locally and he hired this guy from Pennsylvania to come out and he said, listen, I'm gonna give you all the money for the day. I wind up a couple jobs and I just want you to show us the ropes. You get all the money. We don't want anything.
But, uh, so the guy. Drove like about an hour, um, came out this way. Um, we went and did the jobs. I got to learn firsthand what a professional window cleaning was like, how to actually operate a squeegee. The tools, the tips, tricks, the whole nine yards just one day. And, uh, from there we kind of, that was the first job, um, that went smooth with the professional.
It did not go so smooth with the current, the jobs. Uh, that came shortly after that. Um, once the professional was gone, I still remember we had a wooden ladder. I'm like, I don't even know if they, like, do they? I don't think they even make wood. Is that legal? I remember swatting bees away from my head. I'm squeezing it from the outside.
He's telling me he could see streaks. I'm trying to clean it like I was ready to, we were ready to rip each other's throats out. And, uh, at the end of the day, somehow, some way we kept at it and we started to add additional, um, services. We eventually, people started asking, well, can you clean my gutters?
Can you clean? Uh, can you power wash my house? Can you do my walkway? Um, and we kind of evolved since then, but that initial being 19, starting at, my dad had a full-time job in Manhattan. He commuted every morning. He hated it. Um, that's why he was always steering me towards entrepreneurship. Um, he realized that, uh, it, it wasn't, the corporate world wasn't what it used to be, and it was, uh, very cutthroat.
And he instilled in me a lot of values from, um, basically, uh, entrepreneurship. Um, and that's what propelled me to study entrepreneurship at, at Rowan University. And every job, or the few jobs I had in my life before Clearview, um, I always took such pride and also looked at things to improve. He's like, you're the only 17-year-old that would come home from the Italian restaurant saying that like.
You sold the most specials and this is what they're doing wrong. And they, they need to prove on this, this, and this. He's like, he is like, most of 'em are like, I made a hundred bucks. I'm happy. I'm going out with my friends. He's like, you were giving me a, a detailed report on the things that they could do better at the restaurant and to improve customer service to quality of the food, everything.
And he is like, you laid it out there on a regular basis and you're always so competitive. Um, that's very cool. Were you, were you always just kind of hardwired like that you see problems in solutions and opportunities or did, was there some childhood training? Yeah, I think, uh, uh, being surrounded by a lot of my uncles, um, that were entrepreneurs, I kind of saw firsthand.
Um, one of them ran a theater with a restaurant and I saw like how he conducted business, how he went about things. Another one had a production, um, video production, which wasn't really the norm back then. Um, and, uh, he was growing that company and, and there was a bunch more in between. And I saw firsthand like what they were doing in their element and how they led and were looking for things.
And I kind of, I, I loved that. Um, I really, um, was fond of that and I kind of, I wanted to take my own approach and bring my own thing. And me and my dad also found that, like all the other businesses we felt at the time, the ones that were successful, and I don't feel this way anymore, but back then I felt like there was, there were like.
The owners were slimy. And it was like this guy, and I'm not talking exterior cleaning just in general and our, our ways of doing things and I'm like, we kind of both felt like there was a way of doing things the right way and there's a way of doing things, um, uh, and, and showing appreciation and being generous and treating people right where you could still be successful and do it that way.
And we kind of set out to do that. Um, and the reason we fell into exterior cleaning in particular was someone was supposed to go to my parents' house for $400. The guy didn't show up, he didn't call, he didn't anything. And it was like right before I think Thanksgiving and my mom was upset that the, she really wanted to have the windows cleaned before the, all the guests came over in a couple days.
And, uh, we, we saw an opportunity with, uh, being able to just answer the phone, make phone calls, and be, show customer service to, to get it where it's, yeah. Interesting. When, when I first started, um, in Florida, they, I had a, I had a buddy that was in the same church and um, he was really successful, had an advertising agency.
Was killing it. And I said, bill, you know, gimme some tips here. Like what's some advice to be successful in this market? And he said, just show up. Yeah. I'm like, what do you gimme something I can actually use? Like that's dumb. And he is like, I am not kidding. If you show up on time, you're ahead of 95% of the so-called competition.
Like if you don't believe me, call three plumbers and try to get 'em to come over for an estimate. And I was like, oh my gosh, how is the bar so low? Yeah, and it's you, we've been in the industry for a long time. Feel like the bar has gone up quite a bit, but there's still a lot of people that. Don't answer the phone or don't return a call and just don't show up.
What was, um, at some point, I guess Fred, you, you took the business on, on your own. Your dad became not the helper or not the partner or however that worked, but in, in those early days, like what was your, what was your biggest goal for the winter cleaning company once you guys got started? So early on I was just trying to figure it all out.
How do I hire people? How do I land jobs? I still have like our little calendar book with all the jobs from back in those early years. And like there was gaping holes in the calendar. I'd have work on Monday and then I'd go Thursday and then I'd have Saturday and I was like, all right, well how do I fill out the rest of these days?
So I was just trying to establish something and my dad, he also says now, he's like, I didn't think we can get it where we got it. He's like, I didn't see that potential. Like I was trying to get us off the ground entrepreneurial journey, but I didn't see Clearview becoming what it has become back in those early days.
And I was trying to figure out every aspect, and he'd be in Manhattan and I'd call him and I'd be like, Hey, I got a question about this, or this is going on, or whatever the case may be. And he'd, and he'd try to help guide me from his office where, uh, he was working. And, um, the early days, I, I, I, from early on, I wanted to hit a million dollars.
Like, I was like, I'm getting this company to a million dollars and I wanna bring on, I wanted him to be able to leave the job in the city. Mm-hmm. I wanted to bring on my mom. I wanted to bring my brother on his operations. And then obviously eventually when I met Christine, I wanted to obviously bring her on board.
Um, so the, the, the, the million dollar, um, revenue was the, the ultimate goal that I set out early on. But it was, it was hard. Whenever me and Christine present, especially at the huge, we show our chart of like, growth from thousand four until 2026. Those first 10 years, it's like a plateau. Like it's such minimal growth, like there's growth there.
Mm-hmm. But then it was so small and, uh, Christina asked the credit, the growth to when she came on board. So then we started to get into the, the mountain range. Um, but, uh, it was, it was definitely, um, that was the ultimate goal and that was what I had set out for. Okay. And so Christine and you joined the company in 2017 and started running operations and, and doing things.
I, I just, I read the bio and the timeline and it felt like, it's like Christine's coming in to crack the whip and get these wild-eyed dudes in order. It's like, you got a great idea, but you're all over the place. You gotta have a system. Is that fairly accurate? It's exactly what happened. Okay. It's so literally the chart that we present is like, it's flat, and then it's like, once I joined in 2018, it was like, woo, alright, here we go, let's go.
Um, but we always like to say that my strengths are Freddy's weaknesses. Mm-hmm. And, um, his strengths are my weaknesses. So when I joined we kind of like divided and conquered. Like, we were like, alright, you focus on this, this, and this. I'm gonna focus on this, this, and this, and then we're gonna get this to a million dollars.
And it felt like it took forever to hit a million dollars. There was one year we came in at like. 970,000 and like we had $30,000 worth of work, but the, um, signed, but the, uh, the weather wasn't cooperating leading up to Christmas. Yeah. And we were like trying to send the guys out in the snow. Like we were like, we gotta get to a million dollars.
And we, and we didn't hit it, we hit it, we blew it outta the water the following year, but getting to a million dollars felt nearly impossible until we did it. Yeah. Yeah. So how long had you guys been married or were you married before you joined the company? You guys been together for some time? Um, so basically we met in 2014.
We got engaged in 2015, and then we got married in 2016. I had a, I was a corporate paralegal. I focused on, um, corporate, like intellectual property litigation. It was, it was very interesting and challenging. And that was my, for my entire adult life up until that point. And then we had our daughter shortly after we got married, um, like 10 months later.
And she, um, and, and then after my leave and everything, I was set to go back when our daughter, Gabriela, was four months old. So I went back, I remember it being in October and I went back for three days. And then on that Wednesday I came home and I said, I don't wanna work there anymore. I just wanna. He's her mom.
Like, I can't, I can't like go to work and like not see her. My commute was over an hour. Wow. And he was like, then quit. And then like, I was like, okay, that sounds great, but like, we just got married. I don't even understand your financial situation. Like, I, I don't even know if you know what you bank every year.
So like, I was like, we have to figure something out. So, um, a really good friend of ours, uh, who's actually our financial advisor, suggested that I negotiate a layoff. And I, I did, I went back and I just said, I have to leave, but I am not going to quit. I need you to fire me. And I need to collect unemployment and I need to figure out what life is like being married to an entrepreneur.
And I'd been with them with so long that for so long, that they actually gave me like a full year severance package. And it allowed us the year to transition into like managing the Clearview Finances and seeing what life would be like. But long story short. Um, I intended to be a stay at home mom, but Freddy would come home because he was still in the field.
So like he'd come home with different scenarios and I wanted to help him troubleshoot and I wanted to help him problem solve, and I was able to do that. So very organically, I started just like being a part of the business. And then a few years later he was like, you should be the CEO, and I was like.
Okay. You can tell Sid what, uh, your boss said when you told her you wanted to be, uh, laid off and in the, uh, Australian accent. Actually, she was from Australia. She was our vp, um, legal vp. And I went to her and I was like, I, you know, our baby's four months old and I just can't do this. And I was like, I wanna quit.
I wanna quit. But I, but I just, I don't even think we're gonna have any money this winter 'cause my husband doesn't work in the winter. So I was like, so I need you to fire me. And she was like, oh, okay. Like, she was like, I've never gotten that request before. And I was like, okay. And she was like, well, I'll talk to human resources and we'll figure it out.
And I was like, okay, I will not be at work tomorrow. Like, I, I never went back. Um, the, I went back the following Monday and they had like a going away party for me. But, um, anyway, the whole point is. I wanted to, my family is also, my family comes from Lebanon and they all came over in the seventies and they all started businesses in the us.
Every restaurants dry. My parents had a dry cleaners, all of my aunts and uncles and my parents. Everyone worked together. The spouses worked together. So like I lived this life. My uncle had a wholesale dry cleaner, so we had a warehouse just like the Clearview Warehouse. So like then we had restaurants, and then there was jewelry stores.
So like I've just always, me and my cousins have always been at these businesses. We saw parents fight and aunts and uncles fight, and we knew what money was like. And like, I guess it's just in my blood that it was like, I saw Freddy working and I was like, I'm gonna jump on board with this and we're gonna make it really successful.
Okay. I've gotta ask with the, with the, uh, the Lebanese immigrant background of your family, your extended family from the seventies, and then, then the jersey, um, grow up from Fred, like, who argues better because that there's a pretty high temperature on both ends of this. Take a lucky guess. Well, I know who wins.
I know who wins. The Lebanese have some fire in them. Yeah. I thought the Italian jersey thing. But until you see a Lebanese woman get, uh, met and then it's a whole nother level. Yeah. When you come, coming from that era and that background of turmoil in that part of the, of the world. I joke her, I've been at war for a million years.
I'm like, yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So who's, who's more visionary between the two of you? Because I, I didn't realize you're both from entrepreneurial backgrounds like that. Um, I would consider myself the more visionary person. Yeah, I, I, I'm a dreamer, but I, um, it, there's almost like a back and forth with this, which is why I think we compliment each other.
But like he would have a really good idea and then he'd come to me for like strategy and like, how would we do this? And then I would strategize it, but I need it to be perfect. And he'd be like, no, you have a cutoff. We have to now roll it out. So like, we've always been able to just bounce back and forth between like vision, execution, rollout, and implementation.
Okay. Okay. Even when I met her, she came to my bachelor pet at the time, and there was just stacks of those papers that, it was those carbon papers where you give the customer the white copy. Mm-hmm. And there was result yellow and pink ones, both invoices and estimates and, and like piled high in my apartment.
Yeah. And she was like, all right, step one, we need to go electronic. So then we worked together. I was like, here's five of the best CRMs for our vinyl of. I'm like, I need help picking which one. So she went through, she, she did a demo with all five during her lunch break when she was still at the her job.
Wow. And she came back, she's like, we're going with Jobber. And that's when we, uh, went with Jobber and we've been with them ever since. So like, we've done a lot of that type of stuff where I was like, she, she knows the problem, I knows the problem. Then we worked together and then we kind of came to a conclusion and we made it work.
Okay, cool. Very cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask which CRM, but in, when you first started telling that, I, I put that story all back, way back when you started in 20 2004. And I was like, there were no CRMs. Yeah. You had a spreadsheet maybe, but mm-hmm. This was a, a little more modern. So Christine, what were the first systems that you put in place?
Um, the first one was jobber. Getting everyone on a CRM. Now it's like, it was like a whole family business. My mother-in-law, my father-in-law, my husband and my brother-in-law. So like, trying to implement jobber was like easier with the employees than it was with the phone. Like, no, no, no, no. We're gonna use paper.
And I'm like, Freddy, can you tell your parents we have to use jobber? Is it literally paper, all paper up into that point? All paper, every, everything was paper invoices. His, I have it. Um, darn. I wish it was accessible. I have it in, I have a marble, one of those marble notebooks and I still have his written schedule of which houses he was going to.
Yeah. Who he invoiced. And I kept it as memory because he, like, he hustled really hard and, and it took a lot of work and like constant consistency and, um, anyway, so then we got on jobber. That was our first thing. Uh, we developed a. Great hiring system. 'cause the people he was hiring was like, they, we would see them for two days and they'd be gone.
And then another two, you know, we'd hire someone else and they'd be gone. Or like, he would call me and he'd be like, can you pick up this guy from the train station and drop him off at this house to power wash? And I'd be like, sure. What's his name? Like? So like, I was like, we can't, like, we need someone who can drive.
Um, so we, we created like a really great hiring system, which is actually. Honestly, I think our hire, I, I don't know if, I think, I feel like I know that our hiring system is the reason why we exceeded a million, $2 million in revenue. Because remember, remember when I called you that time, I was like, Christine, the one guy, uh, punched, uh, the other employee in the face at the gas station.
Um, which we do. I remember that. I remember them all. So, hiring system, this could be a great day. Yeah, we had, um, we developed a quoting system and like each year we like to like take on a new system. 'cause things are always evolving. And like what you said back, you know, back in the day there were no CRMs.
Well, even since I joined Clearview eight-ish years ago. There's so much new technology that has rolled out that really, that's what raised the bar in our industry. You didn't see this, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9 years ago. Yeah. So the ability to, um, have hiring softwares, the ability to have quoting softwares, the ability to track crew productivity, that's something we rolled out three years ago.
Now, I, I know which jobs are profitable. It's not just for the whole year, like this is our net, but I know which jobs were profitable and which ones we took a loss on. So like, it's been great to, um, utilize technology. My cousin's husband is our QuickBooks coach, and he says to us all the time, and we've had him speak in front of our employees, and he says, you guys are not a power washing company.
You're actually a technology company that power washes and window washes. Mm-hmm. Because of how we utilize technology to scale. That's cool. Can you give me, at a high level, kinda run me through your tech stack? Um, okay. CRM jobber quoting is on respons in bonus up is how we track crew productivity. Ninja VA is where we get our virtual assistants.
That's, that's a huge part of tech too. Yeah. Um, um, hire, bus hire, what was that? Yeah. Company cam hire bus company cam for photos before and afters and videos. Hire bus. I have everybody run through hire bus for proper placement within the company. Um, luckily I, I got a nine as CEO. Um, what else am I missing, Freddy?
Obviously QuickBooks, but that's more of a Yeah. QuickBooks. Oh. Um, this is a new one, but it's actually really exciting. We use school.com Yeah. As our hub for our employees. So it's like our personal page so our employees can message each other. I have our training classroom if our, there's a, an app on the phone, so if our employees wanna call out, um, they just go to school.com and they go into the Clearview classroom and they can click the form to submit a call out form a PTO form.
Yeah. It's, it's, there's like a log so they can post, like everyone was posting pictures at Christmas time with their families. So that's something new. And um, it's awesome because we're all remote and the employees are all over the place, but it like brings us all together. That's really interesting.
Usage of school. Yeah, I, I've not heard of anybody doing that except we use Slack for, you know, with the company, the communication channels and stuff like that. But you can do all that in school. Yeah, we were using Slack and then I switched over to school and it's like, it was awesome. Like, our guys got laid off in mid-December because of the weather.
So, um, like at Christmas time, everyone's like, love you guys. Like, it keeps things out of text and people were posting pictures and then on New Year's there was like, everyone was like, happy New Year. Our VAs in the Philippines posted pictures with their families celebrating New Year's Eve and like, it, it really brings you together.
Like it's, it's a really cool platform for that. And it's, it's affordable. So, yeah. Did you start using school to, uh, to use it as your LLM for training and things like that? Or did you. Start using it just to replace Slack. Uh, I started using it. I discovered it because of my process. CEO, like coaching community.
I like settled on that for process CEO for business coaching. Yeah. And I was like, I think that I can use this for Clearview. So I showed it to Freddy, it was $99 a month and I was like, I think that we should try this. Let's try it for a year and if you don't like it, I'll dump it. And, um. So that's how I did it.
And then I learned how to utilize the classroom. So like we can film training, YouTube videos, for example, and put them on like private on YouTube, but they're all linked in a classroom. Yeah, on school.com. So like I have our whole training. And easy employee access. So like for bonus up there's a leaderboard, right?
And we have this leaderboard of the crew productivity and who wins for the day and the week and whatever. Yeah. We have that on a TV screen at the shop. But there's like, now in the classroom we have bonus up reports and the guys can just go in a bonus up and click the link and see the leaderboard on their phone.
So like, oh, no kidding. It's like a one stop shop because I can put like Google docs, like if I need them to fill out, um, an emergency contact form or like now I have them doing, um, photo and video release forms. 'cause we're doing bigger things on social media. Yeah. I like have the link there. So like, everything's accessible in one place.
'cause you have to remember field employees, they're not sitting at a desk all day. Yeah. They're not going home to a computer. So like, I wanted there to be an easier way than Slack to have like one hub of data and information and a place to share. And school did that for us. So that's our newest technology.
Our first year was 2025 and wasn't Slack. We weren't able to get rid of previous employees off of there. Like, or what? There was a thing, I forget what it was. I just, I just, it, I couldn't visually see it, how I wanted to see it in Slack. And School makes it like easier for me to like, see our team, see everyone's faces, see the classroom.
Like we needed a central, we needed like a company CRM, like for our employees. Yeah. And I got that from school. No, that's really cool. We've, we've struggled with that exact issue with, you know, the, the field guys, they're, they've got a phone and they're working and they're not sitting at a desk. Slack is great for a company of desk employees.
Yeah. In remote workers you have to, you have to get on, get on school. Yeah. Oh, that's cool, man. I got my money's worth out of today's conversation right here. Thank you. Um, oh, that's cool. Okay, so I, I want to ask you to both, and, and I don't care who goes first, start how you want, but talk about working together as spouses is, it's not super common in any industry and there's a lot of dynamics that go between home and work.
How do you maintain professional as well as your loving relationship and, you know, not be mad at the end of the day or whatever. Just start somewhere and tell me about what's it like to work together as spouses? You guys teach a lot about this, uh, industry. Yes. Do you want me to start, or do you wanna start?
Yeah, Whitney's first. Um, okay. So it wasn't always this great and so like other couples in the industry, like when I first started it was because it wasn't only my husband, it was my in-laws and my brother-in-law. So like. It wasn't. So there were, I can't even say a blurred line. There were no lines between when work communication stopped and like family kicked in.
So like the family thread, like I would send a newborn photo of Gabriela and then like his dad would text and be like, we got a one star review on Google. And that was at like, and I'm like, I can't, I don't have the ability and I don't like the corporate world either, but like. I think the stuff I was able to pull from it and implement into Clearview were valuable.
And it was, we don't need to text about, we can't text about work. Like no one's allowed to text about work. And that took a long time. But now there are no texts about work. It's, we all have email addresses, so if we do get a one star review and you choose to read it at 10:00 PM you can forward it to us and I'll read it when I'm working at 8:00 AM the next day.
So like there were boundaries that we had to create that took like two to three years. And then boundaries between me and Freddy, like I would, you know, run payroll and then he'd be about to fall asleep and I'd be like, there's no money in the account. And he would, he'd be like, why are you telling me now?
And I'd be like, I forgot to tell you earlier. And we'd have to figure out where to transfer money from. So like those things, we, we said it, at the end of the day, work is done because if he doesn't wanna be working at 10:00 PM if I want to, I can jump on, but I have to check my email. Everything is through email now.
There is no texting about work and that fixed everything. And he works from the shop. I work from home. I go to the shop, um, sometimes, but I think like having separate workspaces really has benefited us. And I'd have to say like if I've been at the company for eight years now, I think the first two were challenging in our marriage with work and life balance.
Mm-hmm. And then the last six have been great. I love working. I genuinely love working with him. Like we, we are so aligned in terms of our vision for Clearview Washing and for our family and for our financial freedom that like when it comes to work, regardless of what's going on in our personal life, we can jump on a call and like execute like that.
Yeah. Cool. Let me, I'm gonna get to interrupt both of you. I'm gonna pull the mic really closely here. Fred. You're a very lucky man. You got me. I'm okay. I'm alright. I knew you knew. Alright, let's hear it from, from your, um, yeah, Soly. I don't wanna repeat it. She's spot on with everything. Um, those earlier years were tough 'cause I was the middleman.
So like, I was like, if she had a problem with something that my mom, dad, or brother was doing, she'd let me know that and then I'd have to go convey it. And then it was like, it wasn't, that wasn't fun. Um, and at the end of the day though, like just working with her, that's why I wanted her to become the CEO.
I think there's a lot of people in this industry. I think there's more husbands and wives working together, but like, they don't necessarily see it that way. 'cause maybe the wife has a full-time job and then she helps with the husband behind the scenes doing administrative stuff. Like every scenario is different, but I feel like a lot of the women don't get the credit they deserve.
And that's why I told Christine, like, I want her to be front facing and be the CEO 'cause she deserves that. And with everything she's doing, I think establishing also like the boundaries and the lines of like, who's responsible for what. So that we're not, we weren't all working on the same thing and, and kind of wasting time.
Um, I think that was really huge. Um, and I think just setting the boundaries, like she said, like we try to do no business talk in bed, and like every once in a while one of us will slip up and like, she'll be like, I don't want hear this right now. And then vice versa, she'll be dumping me on, uh, about something.
I'm like, I don't want to hear that right now. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's 10:00 PM I'm enjoying whatever show we're watching to like, relax and unwind before we go to bed. Like, let's, let's, and we respect it. Like, it's like you need the reminder. Like, I could be frazzled about something, but he's like, Christine, I'm done for the day.
And I'm like, I'm sorry. You're right. Like, I'll shoot you an email and I'll send him an email. We're laying next to each other in bed and I would like send the email from my phone so that he gets it in the morning. Just to, we have to, the only way we'll succeed is if we respect the boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, that's, it sounds funny to say we're side by side in bed.
I'm gonna email you. Mm-hmm. But the having that boundary and a clear line Yeah. Is so valuable. I really appreciate that. And we go out to dinner sometimes and people are like, oh, like that's not a boundary for us. Like if we, like, we're not gonna bring up like bad stuff, but like, if we wanna talk some strategies, some futures, some like things we can do.
Like I we're going on a date night tomorrow night. I wouldn't be surprised if we started talking to some business. Like, uh, we, we enjoy talking about that stuff, especially when there's a passion, um, involved with that. And obviously we're both see the end goal of where we're trying to reach. Yeah. Another like key thing, I think it's because of how great our employees are, is Freddy's home for dinner every night at five.
'cause my kids eat early. They eat at five. Yeah. And like that never slips. Like we eat dinner together at five o'clock and we're very present with the kids. Like we. We're able to shut it off at this point. And I feel like years ago when it was more chaotic and we had less systems, it was really hard to shut it off.
So like we've, we've really nailed like our work life balance, I feel like. Yeah. That's How old are your kids now? You got two kids, right? Yeah. Six and eight. Six and eight. Okay, good. And, and what a remarkable gift for them. It's like your family culture to go dinner at five. Yeah. Whatever. It's have dinner together.
Yep. Yeah, I love that. And we bring them in too. Whenever there's a Clearview van, we pull, we'll pull them out of school. Like, to me, like I want them learning entrepreneurship firsthand. They engage with all the employees. Um, they, they enjoy coming to the shop. We just moved to a new location. They're, they're like, I wanna go see the new shop.
Like, they get excited if we're doing an event. Um, there's a lifetime gym where we were handed out stuff. They're like, all right, we're gonna have a strategy. They're like, we're gonna go up to certain people and we're gonna hand out their little Clearview rubber docs to every kid that walks by. And they're, but we're gonna go, we're gonna give a pamphlet to the parents.
I'm like, deal. And like they executed on all day. Yeah. They were going back and forth. And my daughter would call my son out on 'em. My son would call my daughter like, you missed one. You missed one. Oh. And they're all about it. And they're like, they're hustling. And I love seeing that. So I know. Whenever like, uh, uh, me and Christine talk, I'm like, we're doing it right.
'cause like I see them seeing it firsthand. They're they're involved in it and they're confident. Yeah. Like they don't have to be entrepreneurs, whatever they want to do, but I want 'em to at least have a taste of that so they know if they're interested. Yeah. Yeah. Having a taste of and immersion into that, that work ethic and hustle culture as an entrepreneur.
Like, and I don't mean, hu hu I don't really like hustle culture and grind and all that because, well, for a lot of reasons maybe we'll get into, but to have a sense of, and seeing that, you know, the, the risk reward factors, like the harder you work, the luckier you get mm-hmm. To actually see it and not just read it or hear it.
I, I really love that. What a, what a blessing for your family and your future generations. Well done. Thank you. Let's, let's go back to, I just want to go for like. The, the past five and a half years, it's 2026 or February, 2026. From, from 2020 till now. This is, I assume has been most of the growth that you guys have had together as a company is, you know, COVID to now, what was it like in 2020?
And then like, kind of take me through the, the peaks and valleys, or maybe it's just a straight line, like a rocket launch. Um, 2020 obviously as everyone experienced was a little scary. But then, um, you know, spring wasn't as busy as it should have been. But then come August, like we just blew up. Um, so 2020 was a unique year.
Um, we experienced steady growth. So what I was saying earlier is like, it, it felt like it took forever to hit a million dollars and then from 1 million to 2 million, you like fly there. Mm-hmm. Like, it is very strange. Like we didn't. It's not like we didn't have to work hard enough, but like we didn't strive for it the way we did with 1 million.
We were like, oh, let's hit like we thought, like let's hit 1.3 and then let's hit 1.5 and then let's hit 1.7. But like 2 million just came like that. And then now the grind from like 2 million to 5 million, five millions the next, um, milestone for us. Yeah, like that feels like the challenge that we went through going from, you know, zero to a million essentially.
So over the last few years we've been trying to strategize after we hit two, uh, 2 million is like, what can we do now to get to 5 million? Well, we have to reinvest into the company in a more strategic way. And I think it's going to be less strategy because we've nailed hiring laborers. But like, what do we do now?
We have to invest in sales talent. So like now we're like doing things we've never done before. Higher salaries, higher commissions. Bringing on people from other industries that are better at sales than we are. Initially, it was like me, Freddy, and his dad, and we, we, us three are so passionate. We wanna win.
So like we can sell anything to anyone, right? But like, we're gonna, we know we're gonna call every customer back. We know that we're going to like lock in every deal that we can. But, and then you, we like dabbled with like certain salespeople and we were like, okay, this is good. This got us to 2 million.
But now we're like, no, for us to get to 5 million, we need like rock stars in sales. So like, we bought in someone from the fitness industry who's just a king as sales. He spoke at the huge last year actually. Okay. Um, and then we bought in somebody else who now we're trying this for the first time. We give him zero leads all week.
He's out getting his own leads. Okay. And he is killing it. So like, we're trying new things. Like we always say like, the reason I think we're succeeding is because we never think that we're the best at everything. Like we are going to continue to absorb from everyone we talk to. What do we do next? What do we do next?
So the last like two to three years have really been like, okay, now how do we get to 5 million? And it's a lot different than what we needed to do to get to a million. Yeah. So you're your systems, and I mean real systems, it seemed like it's what brought you over a million. Mm-hmm. But now you're investing back in the company through roles and leadership.
Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah. Yeah. We, we rebranded. That was part of it too. We felt like our branding got a little stale. Uh, went more into social media and content. Um, obviously the hiring, uh, our ops manager we brought in 'cause we tried to always hire from within and that didn't work out with the operations role.
Just because they were, uh, awesome. Lead tech did not mean they were gonna be an awesome, um. Uh, ops manager for US manager, and we failed at that twice. Uh, my brother was our ops manager and he was killing it. Uh, the problem was he had entrepreneurial aspirations as well, so he ended up buying a pool, cleaning and restoration company.
So he went out and he's an entrepreneur himself now. After he left, we promoted from within twice and just fell flat on our faces. Um, and they're, and we ended up bringing 'em both back and they, they wanted to stay with the company, but in a lead tech role. Um, yeah. And then we decided to hire someone that had operational experience from Chick-fil-A and the healthcare industry and everything, but exterior cleaning.
And I'm like, if they can run operations, I can teach 'em the ins and outs of our industry. Yeah. And that's been a huge success for us too. Oh, that's cool. Do you, are you familiar with Jonathan Patosh? He's. He, uh, he started, I think it was service, CEO. He's got a, a significant landscape company in Dallas-Fort Worth.
Mm-hmm. Um, he has been, so, he is in a, in a, an adjacent industry to us, and he was at one of our, he was on a panel at a dinner we hosted a couple years ago in Nashville. And so he built their, he's got a partner. He worked about, you know, five, 10 hours a week. They got their lawn care company up to 10, 11 million a year.
Wow. And he had service CEO and, and it was very significant. He, he had an exit on that, which is like the, the kind of life changing money. He's super down to earth. It didn't change him. Mm-hmm. But when we were talking to dinner, uh, this panel we're talking about, you know, the keys to real growth and really being established in that growth.
He, he's so mild and modest when he stood up and said, listen to me. It got everyone's attention. 'cause he's a, you know, he is just a soft spoken guy. And he said, look, all of these strategies and all these things are great. He said, but the key when you want real growth is your people, and you've gotta pay 'em as much as you can.
Said, we had a guy, and I don't know what role he was in, we were paying 250,000 a year. And he was not moving the deal on a company. We fired him. We hired somebody. We're paying him $400,000 a year. And my, and I'm like getting tight in my throat about those kind of numbers. And he said he added like 6 million in revenue to the company in one year.
And he is like, you gotta get the right people. Yeah, you gotta pay your people. And I've like listening to your story, mine is very similar with the growth of our companies. And I go, we try to promote from within within, which is, is good. It's, it's got a noble side to it and a co you know, a, a culture thing to it.
But when you really get to the point where you're like, we're gonna grow, we've gotta go. You hire an expert. Yeah. You guys hire coaches to coach you. You even mentioned having an Excel, or not Excel, but a. QuickBooks coach and I was like, who does that? Okay. It was like, when you want to go pro, you hire a pro to teach you.
Yeah. So the people that got us to 2 million weren't gonna be the same people that got us to five. And we realize that, and we had to make some changes to, to accommodate that. And I'm loving it. Like the, the, the sales team is like, they're freaking rock stars and like they always say, hire people that are even better than you at what you're doing.
And like they are. And like, I love working with them. Um, both, uh, obviously both guys and obviously the operations is great and our field techs with the hiring process are great. So like I, every year at our company events, I always say, this is the best team we ever had. But like, I really mean that. 'cause every year it's getting better and better.
So like, and I think everyone sees that themselves too and really appreciates it. Yeah. So you guys teach a lot in the industry. I mean, you've, you, you interview others, you teach, you have a coaching thing. You've spoken at the huge convention. I see you guys speaking at other industry events and stuff, and you do that a lot.
You bring a lot of value. What I want to ask is, who do you learn from? Who are your mentors that you, uh, who's your coach? Well, I, I always looked up to Brandon Vaughn tremendously. Like, uh, when I saw he, that, when I saw he reached $5 million before exiting himself, like that was like, and he was doing all those awesome videos.
He was showing people to be behind the scenes. And a lot of people will say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but then they won't execute. And we see that when we're coaching too. Like, and that's why you're. Driven or not, uh, you're drawn to the people that actually execute. Like me and Christina always talk about different people that we're coaching, like that's an executor.
I love that guy. I love that girl. Like they execute, like you tell him what to do and then a week later, a month later, they're like, that's done. That's done. No matter like what it is. And I absolutely love that. I felt like I was that way with Brandon. Like if he said jump, it was like, all right, how high do you want me to jump?
Like yeah, I'm gonna execute on whatever it is. And that's where I would come to Christine with all types of ideas from stuff I was learning myself. I'm like, I think we should look into this software. I think we should do this. I think we should do that. And then like, we were taking each step. But like that's someone that I would give a lot of credit to.
'cause that's who I really luck up to for a long time. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. If he, even if he like posted a Facebook video, like a short Facebook video, we would like save it, watch it at night and be like, okay, we have to figure out how to do this. Like we just wanted to execute and then we like every book.
Every single book. Like I have this and then I have another bookshelf over there. But like any book that comes out, industry related or, um, the speakers at the huge and we, we get the book and we just get to work. I read it. 'cause there's always one thing you can take away. Like I, I always like use the word fluff.
Like I hate fluff. Like I want like actionable. Like this is how you do this. And um, so a lot of books are fluff, but there's still like one thing you learn in that book that you're like, oh, I read one book that I felt like was all fluff. Like, it was like, okay, so you're a multimillionaire, but how did you do it?
But there one takeaway that I took, which was, um, this like way, a certain way of doing employee report cards. And I was like, oh, that's genius. So now we have like employee scorecards. So like there's always something to take away and. There are so many more people than not that think like, oh, but that would never work for me, but that would never work in my demographic.
That would never work in this region of the us. That just would never work. But it's like, no, if somebody else does more in revenue than you, you do have to take away what they're teaching you. It does work. You just have to, it's a mindset shift. Yeah. So what, what are one or two of the biggest mind shifts you guys have had together as a couple to grow your business?
Because you, you don't go from a half a million to a million without changing the way you think. We're not, we're not offering jobs. We're offering careers. That was a big one. Um, that was a mind shift. And that one like, seems like, all right, not that big, but like that was totally different. We we're, we're hiring people that are providing for their families.
It's not just some job where they're collecting a few bucks and then kind of doing whatever they want. Um, that was a huge one. Do you have any other ones, Christine? Yeah. My mine was like paying higher salaries. Like I was terrified to pay higher salaries even knowing that this person would execute because they know more than we do.
But I was terrified to pay these high salaries. Mm-hmm. But, um, it's, it's, it's paying off. And I have to say that I know that a lot of people run the company on their own, but there is like, it's a blessing for there to be like me, Freddie, and his dad. 'cause if me and Freddie are hesitant about things, his dad comes in and says, you too.
I understand how you're feeling, but you have to think he's, he always says you have to zoom out and think big picture. Don't think about right now. Zoom out and think big picture. And sometimes we need to hear that. Yeah. And then there are other times where like Freddy and his dad are like, oh, this is a stupid process.
And I'm like, no, just do it. You know? And then, but like we all have to like, we all like the, there is power in us being like, so totally different in encouraging each other to like, go along with a certain plan. I think we've made really strategic, I think we've been very strategic risk takers, um, in how we've grown the company.
Yeah. Yeah. But the high salaries was a huge mindset shift for me. Okay, cool. Um, when you shifted from job to career, did it change the retention, the employee retention? Or did it change the way you've taught about Okay, good. Our retention rate is like 95%. Like that's not, say we're cleaning in New Jersey, like, yeah, we lose one guy a year and this year we didn't even lose anyone.
So like, uh, at the end of the day it's like. Everyone's on board. We're very transparent when we're hiring people too. Like, Hey, you're gonna be off in the months of January and February. We'll see how December goes. We, we will try to go as far into December and we start back first week of March, but I can't, like, we're not gonna work January and February.
It's not just throwing upon them when all of a sudden, uh, Christmases rolling around like, oh yeah, by the way, you're gonna be laid off right now. Good luck. Yeah. Like they know, so they prepare for it. Some of them go on vacations, some of them do DoorDash, some shovel, uh, snow removal, like everyone does something different, but they're all back here.
On March 9th is our kickoff, so a week from this Monday, we're gonna have our kickoff meeting and everyone's coming. Oh, that's cool. They all know, they all know how to window wash and power wash and clean a gutter like that is the easy part. But like we have shifted in the sense that like, we are almost like motivational speakers to these people.
Like we look at it as like, I, like we could change the entire trajectory of this person's life by giving them a career. Mm-hmm. They think they're applying for a job, but they could be here forever because we are giving them growth. We're giving them, um, you know, security. We've, we now offer 4 0 1 ks and health insurance.
Like, we want it to be a place where they can actually grow and thrive. And one of our guys bought a house last year and like one bought an engagement ring and he got engaged. So we're like seeing them grow from like kids in their twenties into adults. Yeah. And we're trying to like stand behind them and motivate them.
One of them texted. One of 'em just texted me and Freddie and he was just like, I just wanna thank you guys so much. You guys have really helped me, you've changed my life, whatever, whatever. And he's a, he's our lead trainer. And my response to him was, you don't have to thank me. You're the one doing the work.
Just know that me and Freddie will always be here to support you. Yeah. That is, that is so rewarding with, um, with some of the thing, you know, you said you, you're kinda like motivational speakers for 'em. You're, you teach 'em a skill, you teach 'em how to, you know, run their role, but you're also teaching 'em life skills, right?
Yeah. Do you, um, have like a leadership develop development plan or program where, like, what are the types of things that you teach? Your employees that is gonna be good for them no matter where they work in the future. We are always trying to build their confidence because they don't have that, they may not have been given that as a child.
Um, going job to, job, to job that. You lose confidence right there. So I always do, um, like team building things when we're all together and we get together three times a year in to like the entire company is together three times a year. The kickoff meeting in March, Clearview Day in August, and then our holiday party in December.
And at every single one of those events, we always start it with something motivational. And Freddie used to think it was so corny, but now he loves it. So like one of them would be, um, one time I had like a whiteboard and I gave everybody post-its, and I said, on everyone got three post-its. And I said, on each post-it write a goal or a dream or a vision somewhere.
You wanna be in the next year, two years, five years, whatever it is. I wanna know like one goal and vision. And they had to write three of 'em. And then you have to have them stand up and go to the front of the room and present that in front of everyone and stick it onto the company vision board. Wow. And like that is getting them to open up, because I know the guy.
I know which of our guys are insecure. Like one of 'em who seems like a complete boss when he is power washing, he always says, I don't know. And I'm like, okay, I'll come back to you. You can think about it. Like I wanna build that confidence in them. I want them to speak in front of people with their chin up.
I want them to share their goals and their dreams with people. And now they all have a support system. Our guys hang out with each other outside of work. So like another one that I did was, um, stand up in front of the room and tell everybody, um, one great trait about yourself and one great trait about someone you work with here at Clearview.
This went on for like an hour and a half. We had our guys walking to the center of the room, hugging each other. Like it turns, it just opens everybody up to really connect. Yeah. And now it's like a brotherhood amongst our team, but it's because we've learned so much about each other. That is really cool.
We, I did, um. A similar exercise about a year ago, and I thought it was gonna be corny. I was like, I, I wish one of my guys would do this exercise. So I didn't have to say it, but I, I gave 'em sticky notes and have 'em like, just write down what they like about their coworker. Like individually? Yeah. And stick, and we'd just put 'em in a pile We didn't read or anything, but I took, we separated 'em all.
So everybody for, you know, Jake, all of his went to envelope. We stuck it in his station and then Darby's went his, at the end of the day, they had, they all had like 10 or 11 things. Oh. That somebody else wrote about 'em and you didn't sign their name. And they, at that, after they came back and I was at the office that day and like some of the guys were crying.
They're like, dude, I had no, I like, and they, they ended up with this. Big bonding moment. Yeah. Because they realized what the other people were thinking about 'em and 'cause they didn't have sign their name. Everybody was pretty transparent about Yeah. What they really thought. And uh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
So I, I love what you shared. Actually, I just made a note to review this recording. 'cause we have our kickoff next Monday and Tuesday. Mm-hmm. I was literally looking for a game or an exercise to do with our crew when we come back and, uh, you just gave it to me, Christine. Yeah, yeah, of course. I couldn't be more proud at the end of that exercise.
Like I told her leading up to 'em, like, you're really gonna make them do this. We really gotta do, they were supposed have fun. I'm like, uh, and then by the end of it I'm like, this is awesome. And they had family members there. Like, it was like, it was just awesome to see all that. And I felt like a fly on the wall.
Like it was all about them and the coworkers. It was nothing about me and Christine. Like we weren't mentioning it all. It was all about them. And that was so cool to say, man. Yeah. If you think about like a field tech. Right. Like, this is not like a judgment thing. This is an experience thing. Like based on my experience, you, you are likely going to have somebody who may not have the best childhood or adult role models or guidance or someone to go to with advice or something.
So like as I was seeing those types of people, I was like, what can we do to make an impact on their lives? And once we started to see that we were making a positive impact on their lives, the company became successful. Like it truly goes hand in hand. Yeah. We, we always said, we want everyone, no matter how long they're here, whether they're here one year, five years, 10 years, we want them to leave here better off than when they arrived.
And we truly mean that too. So we've gotten, uh, the team OSHA 30 trained aerial lift trained. We've done all types of stuff too. So they have that in their arsenal. They have that card forever, right? They're officially trained. They can put that on feature resume. Yeah. And at the end of the day, we helped them try to reach their goals too.
Um, there's been people in the company, like one wanted to become a police officer last year. He had an opportunity. We pushed him and he became a police officer. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Another guy desperately wanted to work out of college. Christina had a conversation with him and he wanted to work, um, with, uh, special needs children.
And her cousin happens to run one of the, the biggest au autism schools in New Jersey, and she put them in contact. I'm not gonna lie, the first year I was pissed off that she like basically got rid of one of our best employees to go work for her cousin. But at the end of the day, big picture, it was like, that's awesome.
Like we helped him go do his goal and I still talk to him from time to time and I'm proud that like all these years later he is still doing that. And that was, he was passionate about that. Oh, that's cool. So, um, last big question before we wrap up is, you guys have a pretty clear vision or goal right now is go from where you are to, you know, to hit that 5 million mark and that's, it's very evident.
Um. The, with the principle of having everyone on the team rowing in the same direction, what are the, the incentives or the, like, how are you helping to motivate the technicians in a way that helps you meet that, reach that goal of 5 million? Because I, I know what the goal means from an owner level, right?
Well, we were talking about the tech stack before and we use bonus up. And Bonus Up is basically a system where it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the opportunity with the old carrot and the stick. And it's like, we wanna reward people that are kicking butt for us and we wanna make sure we hold people accountable.
And ironically, Christina always talks about this, like, the guys wanna be held accountable 'cause they want their peers held accountable too. Like I used to think no one wants to be like this or that. Well they actually do like, uh, they wanna make sure that everyone's being held at the same standard. But with bonus up, we're able to basically say that if your production rate is above 1 25 an hour individually, that it's between 1 25 means you're doing your job.
But between 1 25, 1 35, you're gonna get an extra dollar per hour between 1 35, 1 40, but you're gonna get $2 an hour between 1 45, 1 55, you're gonna get $3 all the way up to like, they can make an extra $10 per hour, um, in pay based off of their production rate. Yeah. We also pay them $10 per review. Um, we basically, the culture is strong.
Um, so we basically, we wanna make sure that each department is communicating with each other too, between the field operations. Sales and ownership. We wanna make sure all four are kind of aligned on exactly what's going in the office. So make it five. Uh, we wanna make sure everyone's aligned with that.
So I think by bringing everyone together, offering the additional pay incentives and doing that, that, that helps to drive everyone, keeping 'em aligned to get to that ultimate goal. Okay. Good. Good. Christine, you would you add to that? Yeah, mine, my response is a little different, but I, I agree with that in incentivizing the field crew, but I think that was part of the mindset shift and like, what got us to 2 million versus what'll get us to 5 million.
And I think strong field techs we've mastered, and I know that I can get another 18 if I needed to through my hiring system. But now I feel like the shift is going to be in sales, strong closing numbers and opera and like field operations, like leadership. Like I feel like back then it was like we needed like the work to get done properly and efficiently and whatever.
And now it's like on the backend, like, okay, we have the leads flowing in, but we need our closing ratio to like, we need to close all of these jobs. We need to focus on getting government bids. We need to focus on multi-day, um, projects. Keep the guys at one place for a week, like higher margin projects. So like mine is more on like that backend.
And that was the huge mind shift mindset shift for me is like now these big dogs that we have in sales are going to get us to the five mill. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And I'll provide the text. Okay. Yeah. What, um. What it would be your advice to anybody that's going from a million to 2 million and like, or any, anybody that just wants to get to a million.
'cause there a lot of people listening will be in that category. They're like, they've got that goal. I gotta get to a million. Gotta get to a million. What are the big shifts that they need to make or what's your advice to them? If you could just tell 'em, do this one thing, it's gonna make more difference than anything else.
I believe that, um, at that point, if you're trying to approach a million, you have to start implementing systems. You can get to 500,000 without them and you're likely not at the shop all day. You're likely out in the field kind of running operations. You have to train your guys in a way that they can focus on getting the work done properly.
And you have to focus on building systems that can scale. That way you can just continue to add to your company. Yeah, and I would say in addition to that, like yes, be out in the field, but like off the truck they gotta get off the truck. Yeah. And that's one of the hardest parts to do. But I think also making sure that their day-to-day tests are high level stuff.
Mm-hmm. They're not just everyone's busy, but like, if they were to write down everything they've done for the whole week, like every single thing they do during Workday, how many things should be delegated to other people in the company mm-hmm. Or automated or whatever the case may be. Like they're, they're, they, they're getting, they're getting, um, distracted by Home Depot runs and bank deposits and stuff that is eating up time, but not actually generating money.
And I think it's important at that level to make sure that they're running operations, but also getting as many leads and, and, and as many sales as possible. Yeah. That's great. If you think about like, um, how many times an owner has to run out to deliver a, uh, like a hose or, uh, an X Jett or something like that, imagine if they spent that time in the shop building bundles and learning how to cross-sell and upsell every single client to like double their average ticket.
Like, that's where the value is. Like it's in the brain, it's not on the road. You can have an Uber deliver a hose. Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. Well, both of you, thanks for spending time because like we finally got our deep conversation. 'cause the last two years is huge. When it's all over, I see you guys at breakfast the next day when everybody's kinda like, decompress, and we chat for about 10 minutes and I go, I need to, I need to sit down and talk with you guys.
Um, so I now finally had the chance. Thank you so much. How, if somebody wants to follow you or learn more, like what's the best place for them to go? You can follow me everywhere at the process. CEO. Um, and I, I could talk business all day long, so feel free to shoot me questions and good stuff. Okay. Okay, cool.
And for me, Fred Hodge Jr. Uh, literally on every platform. Um, and, uh, I, Clearview washing, uh, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, um, Google, you name it. We're on pretty much all of 'em. Awesome. Well, thanks again. I'm gonna ask you if you would stay on for a minute after we, we end, but for today, that is all for the huge transformation show.
Thanks for being a part of it and sharing your story. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having us.
Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes. So it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise. And this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform that has, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the huge mastermind. Now. It's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the link here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like the show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. It as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Molly Moran, founder of green sweep, an eco-friendly house cleaning company in Albuquerque, New Mexico that she built from cleaning toilets herself to a multi–seven-figure business with 35+ employees. Molly shares how a real-life asthma-triggering cleaning experience led to her “green” positioning, and how her original dream (inspired by The 4-Hour Workweek) evolved into building a company designed for profit, impact, and freedom.
Molly breaks down the moves that helped her scale: staying focused instead of chasing extra services, investing aggressively in marketing + recruiting, and constantly pressure-testing pricing to support better wages and a more professional customer experience. She also talks leadership—why shifting from “managing” to coaching your team creates better outcomes—and how Profit First became a turning point in escaping “entrepreneurial poverty.” Finally, Molly previews CleanCon in Indianapolis (a residential-only conference built around connection, innovation, and education) and shares the real challenge she’s working through now: protecting space and energy while operating at a higher level across multiple businesses.
 
Show Notes:
Molly Moran
The LIVE BRIGHT Show 
Molly Moran on Instagram
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Huge Foundations Facebook Group
The Huge Convention
 
Transcript:
Sid Graef: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I’m Sid Graef outta Montana.
 
Gabe Torres: I’m Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: And I’m Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business.
 
Sid Graef: We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry—folks that have already built seven- and eight-figure businesses and they want to help you succeed.
 
Gabe Torres: Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real-life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly. Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece.
 
Sid Graef: Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let’s dive in.
 
Sid Graef: Hey everybody, it’s Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, and today we’ve got a really great interview episode and conversation with my friend Molly Moran. Molly Moran runs a significant—uh—house… I can’t talk today, but I think you’ll get the point. She’s got a house cleaning company in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
 
She grew it from scratch, from cleaning toilets to a robust multi–seven-figure business with 35 employees. She’s got her own podcast, The Live Bright Show. She has a coaching and training program called Live Bright, and she’s hosting an event. She runs marathons, and she’s got two really cool dogs.
 
But you’re gonna enjoy our conversation ’cause it’s filled with insights and advice that she got early on and transformed the way she operated her business. So with that, I hope you enjoy the conversation with Molly as much as I did. Thanks for joining us today.
 
Sid Graef: Hey everybody. Thanks for joining us on the Huge Transformations show. I’m Sid, and today’s guest is Molly Moran—and you are gonna have, I hope you have as much fun as I am. Molly, how are you? I’ve got a little introduction for you, but first, how you doing? Thanks for being on the show.
 
Molly Moran: I’m great. I’m so happy to be here, Sid. Thanks for having me.
 
Sid Graef: Cool. And I love your headshot. It just says “Bright” at the front and it shows like, “Let’s live bright.” So for those of you that have never met or heard of Molly—Molly’s from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Can you spell that for me please?
 
Molly Moran: Oh, like for real? No.
 
Sid Graef: The founder of green sweep, which is a substantial eco-friendly house cleaning business in Albuquerque. You host The Live Bright Show and you have the Live Bright community and you coach people and help them. And this speaks to me so—Molly, you help people make more money, have more fun, and have more freedom. And I am a freedom hound. That’s my biggest motivator. And fun comes right after that. And money is third, but still important. So we’re gonna talk about that some.
 
And this year you and a handful of friends are hosting a live conference, a get-together in— is it Indianapolis?
 
Molly Moran: It is, yes. Indianapolis, in March, called CleanCon.
 
Sid Graef: CleanCon. First time I heard the name I was like, “Is this someone who got outta prison? Doesn’t have any tattoos—CleanCon?”
 
Molly Moran: Sid—like, I’m like, “No, it’s a cleaning conference.”
 
Sid Graef: And then the last part of my introduction, and probably the most important thing, is you have a dog named Bentley.
 
Molly Moran: I do. And we have another dog—we got Bentley a sibling a month ago, and his name is Leo.
 
Sid Graef: Very good. What are the breeds of your dogs?
 
Molly Moran: They’re both little rescues. Leo is a schnauzer—we just got his DNA back yesterday. Bentley is a schnauzer… she’s like a schnoodle, but she also has husky and German shepherd in her.
 
Sid Graef: Well, she’ll probably live 25 years with a good mix like that.
 
Molly Moran: Let’s hope.
 
Sid Graef: Before we actually get started, I met with a friend of one of my clients this morning—she’s an architect. She said the vendor booth that was the top booth most visited: they put down AstroTurf and they brought 10 puppies. People could just sit down and play with puppies.
 
Molly Moran: That’s smart. That’s brilliant.
 
Sid Graef: I’m like, instantly I was like, “I wanna be a vendor at somebody’s show, and I’ll take a bunch of puppies and popsicles.”
 
Molly Moran: Great idea.
 
Sid Graef: Let’s go back toward the beginning of your business career. Was green sweep the first business you started, or did you start before that?
 
Molly Moran: That was my first business. I started green sweep in 2009, so it’s been a minute and a half. Very first business and pretty random, honestly.
 
I was a victim of The 4-Hour Workweek, so I was reading it on a beach in Mexico in like 2007 and I was like, “I’m gonna go for it.” And then fast forward six months—I started a cleaning company.
 
I was in the nonprofit world—program management. My trajectory was like, “I’ll be an executive director someday,” and then I was like, “I actually don’t wanna do this.” I kept getting bored and switching jobs, and decided I should start my own business.
 
It could have been anything. I had certain parameters: low startup costs, I’ve gotta be able to do it, not high-technology focused. I had hired a cleaning service at my house at the time, came home one day and couldn’t breathe because of the chemicals they used. I triggered an asthma attack and I was like, “Oh, I should start an environmentally friendly cleaning company.” That’s literally how the idea came about.
 
Sid Graef: When you started, what was the vision?
 
Molly Moran: The vision was huge from the very beginning. I was living in San Diego at the time, had a sister here in Albuquerque, and we decided to start the business together. Albuquerque seemed like a friendlier place to start a business than California.
 
Very quickly realized we were better off as sisters than business partners. I got it going and I worked in the business—I cleaned. I wanted to know how to do everything. I didn’t have deep pockets. I was scrubbing toilets and waiting tables at the time—doing a whole bunch of things as I got it off the ground.
 
Sid Graef: What do you love about owning a business, and what could you do without?
 
Molly Moran: The biggest thing I love is freedom—in many senses. I get to structure and create my life how I want to. Now versus then, I can work from anywhere. I don’t need to be in Albuquerque to scale my business.
 
I love the potential—it can be smooth sailing, or I can turn the heat up and we can grow. I love making lots of money and spreading it around—money is a tool for trips and giving and security.
 
I also love the impact. With cleaning, we impact our staff’s lives—we provide fantastic jobs in a traditionally underpaid, underappreciated profession. We professionalize it, offer benefits, change the narrative around the profession. And the impact we have in the community and on clients.
 
Sid Graef: Did you have to fight uphill to change the perception and wages?
 
Molly Moran: When I first got into business, I didn’t know how to run a business. What I made was what was left at the end of the day. I remember sometimes my cleaners made more than I was making and I was like, “Something’s wrong.”
 
Eventually I got coaching and mentorship and restructured operations—what we were charging, how we paid staff—more expensive for the client but more professional and valuable service.
 
From a respect/professionalizing standpoint, I’ve always done that. Cleaning homes is about more than clean—it’s about the sanctity of a home and giving people time back to connect and play and do what they want.
 
Sid Graef: Your customer base is mostly residential?
 
Molly Moran: Primarily—about 95% residential. We used to be 50/50, but now we’re mostly residential.
 
Sid Graef: Do you have super fans?
 
Molly Moran: Yes. We have clients who’ve been with us forever. Some of them know me because I went and did their in-home estimate 15 years ago. They know who we are and what we stand for.
 
Sid Graef: What was a piece of advice that helped you early?
 
Molly Moran: Don’t diversify too much. Don’t add too many verticals. We clean houses—that’s what we do. I can refer other stuff out, but I’m not gonna take it all on.
 
A customer once said, “You’re already in our houses—you should do pet care.” And I was like, “You’re crazy.” There’s enough to do, enough money, enough impact if you stay the course.
 
Sid Graef: I relate—when you’re broke and hungry, you say yes to everything.
 
Molly Moran: Totally. On the commercial side early on, people asked if we strip and wax VCT, and I said sure. Next thing I know I’m on a machine spinning around in wax on a Saturday. We made money, but I learned: we don’t do this well—so we don’t do it.
 
Sid Graef: When did you realize you had something special and wanted to teach others?
 
Molly Moran: I got into a very specific house-cleaning coaching community around 2018. Before that, it wasn’t specific enough—people would say “you need systems” but not help with the how.
 
I hit burnout and thought, “I’ll invest massively in myself and the business—last hurrah. If it works, great. If not, I’ll quit and get a sales job.” I implemented hard, grew, and ended up coaching in that world for a bit. Eventually I went my own direction.
 
Probably four years ago I was like, “Oh wow—I can make a very good living and I’m working four hours a week on my company.” That felt like the dream.
 
Sid Graef: You’ve got 35-ish employees. Most home service owners never get past five or six. What were the biggest challenges to scale?
 
Molly Moran: Marketing and recruiting—balancing lead flow and staffing. It’s still imperfect, but we’ve gotten better.
 
I’m not afraid to spend on marketing for growth. I’ll take profit or my income and pour it into marketing at the beginning of the year to push us into the next level. It pays off.
 
Sid Graef: In your coaching now—what are the biggest pain points you see for established business owners?
 
Molly Moran: Profit—they’ve grown but they’re not as profitable as they could be. Freedom—they’re the bottleneck, they can’t turn their work brain off. Tech and work-from-home blur everything, so there’s no break. Then they start questioning: “What’s the point?”
 
It’s also cool how different it is now—people can get on YouTube, buy courses, and get step-by-step help with pricing, hiring, etc. That wasn’t there when I started.
 
I used to think, “I’m smart—why am I so dumb at this?” The purpose of business is to make money, and I wasn’t making money. I could’ve fired everyone and cleaned myself and made more.
 
Now I’m like: there are parts of business you don’t need to be creative on—some of it should be boring.
 
Sid Graef: How do you coach people out of being the bottleneck—mindset or tools?
 
Molly Moran: Both. I have a personal development curriculum paired with leadership curriculum. We start with the most pressing business challenges—often money. I’ll have them bring their P&L and we comb through what to cut and adjust so they can make more instantly—paired with mindset work.
 
Sid Graef: Do you do leadership development inside your own company?
 
Molly Moran: Not formally yet, but I’m developing pieces. I have a recorded course aimed at owners, but it can translate to managers/leaders too.
 
Sid Graef: I’ve shifted from thinking “I’m managing” to “I’m coaching.” I enjoy it more and it empowers people. Some owners fear training leaders because they’ll leave and start their own company—that’s scarcity mindset.
 
Molly Moran: Exactly. Shifting from managing to coaching has been massive for me too. It changes how I speak to people and what they bring back to the team. And I’m fortunate—my company has margin now, so people can learn and make mistakes. I’m not going back to day-to-day operations.
 
Sid Graef: How did your pricing evolve?
 
Molly Moran: We use a solo-cleaner model and a pay-for-performance type system. A core commitment is providing good-paying jobs, and that drives pricing. I start from: I want staff to make X, therefore we need to charge Y.
 
We constantly test pricing, limits, and conversion. We’re focusing heavily on weekly and biweekly recurring right now. Monthly is still sold, but prices are higher. We do surge pricing in high season sometimes. When we start hearing, “You’re way more than ____,” we stabilize. Higher pricing lets us adjust staff pay and do raises more often.
 
Sid Graef: What are principles you live by—personally and in the business?
 
Molly Moran: Our values at green sweep are kindness, integrity, community growth, and excellence (we recently changed it from professionalism to excellence).
 
I’m working on bringing more fun and play into green sweep. My coaching brand “Live Bright” stands for: bold, real, intentional, growing, healthy, thriving. Living bright also means honoring when you’re not feeling bright—it’s authenticity.
 
Sid Graef: Let’s shift to CleanCon. Why another event—why do we need it?
 
Molly Moran: The inspiration came from the Huge Convention and Cleaning & Cocktails—those events are amazing at connection, learning, and building real relationships. But they’re largely commercial-focused. There wasn’t a standalone event like that for residential cleaning owners that wasn’t tied to an expensive coaching program.
 
ISSA exists but residential is a tiny portion of it. We wanted something closer to the Huge/Cleaning & Cocktails feel, but only for residential. That’s CleanCon—Indianapolis.
 
Our tenants are connection, innovation, and education. It’s structured around residential cleaning company owners of all sizes.
 
Sid Graef: And Mike Michalowicz is keynoting.
 
Molly Moran: Yes. I read Profit First in 2018 and it was a turning point. I met him at an event last summer and when we started planning CleanCon, I reached out and we made it happen. His mission is to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty—and there’s a lot of that in our industry. I’m psyched to have him there.
 
Sid Graef: CleanCon is March 16th, 17th, 18th in Indianapolis, and it’s mycleancon.com.
 
Molly Moran: Yep—mycleancon.com. Ticket prices are meant to be affordable. And yes—hosting an event is a lot of work. We’re like, “What are we doing?” But it needed to be done.
 
Sid Graef: What’s the format—panels and breakouts?
 
Molly Moran: One keynote—Mike Michalowicz—and almost an entire morning with him. Then the rest is panels and masterminding. No breakout rooms for the first one—we’re keeping everyone together. The panels will be interactive and we’re building in other things so it’s not just sitting and listening.
 
Sid Graef: Last question: what challenge are you facing now, or a connection you’d like to make?
 
Molly Moran: Biggest challenge right now is still finding space—having room for chill and enjoyment, not just work, work, work—especially while operating at a new level across three businesses in massive growth mode.
 
Some weeks are crazier, like before going to Mexico for a meditation retreat. Every uplevel throws things off a little, so I’m figuring out how to operate at this level and protect space. I’ll think on the connection point—thank you for asking.
 
Sid Graef: Anytime you have a worthy project, there’s no end—like an infinite Instagram feed. You have to draw a line and turn it off so you can show up well for your spouse, family, community, and yourself. Work-life balance isn’t static—it shifts, like staffing versus marketing.
 
Molly Moran: Last year I had some health constraints—massive exhaustion. It forced hyperfocus. Even now that I feel good, I use that filter: focus on the biggest things. I’m trying to be home by five and be more present. Not perfect, but working on it.
 
Sid Graef: Thanks so much for your time and sharing. If you want to get in touch with Molly: mollymoran.com. CleanCon is coming up. Where can people find you on Facebook and Instagram?
 
Molly Moran: Facebook and Instagram: Molly Moran Live. And the podcast is The Live Bright Show—you can find it on my website, and it’s on Spotify, Apple, all the places.
 
Sid Graef: Awesome. Thanks again, and we’ll wrap it up.
 
Molly Moran: Thanks so much, Sid. What a pleasure.
 
Sid Graef: Hello my friend, this is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today’s episode. I hope you got some value from it. Anything that was covered—resources, books, tools—will be in the show notes so it’s easy to find.
 
I also want to let you know the mission for the Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help blue-collar business owners gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. We do that in four ways:
 
Number one is our free weekly newsletter called The Huge Insider.
Next is the Huge Foundations education platform—120+ hours of industry-specific education and resources, plus a monthly topical webinar and Q&A with seven- and eight-figure business owners. It’s available for a $1 trial for seven days.
Next is The Huge Convention—every August. This year it’s in Nashville, Tennessee, August 20th through 22nd, 2025. It’s the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders, with vendors, tools, world-class education, and the best networking opportunity in the industry.
Lastly, if you want to pour jet fuel in your business, check out the Huge Mastermind—not for everyone. You’ve gotta be over $750,000 in revenue and building toward a million, five million, ten million in the next five years. It’s a network, mentorship, and mastermind of your peers, and we help you implement the Freedom Operating System.
 
You can get information on all four programs at thehugeconvention.com—scroll down and click on the Freedom Path—or find the links in the show notes.
 
And if you’d like to support the show, take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. It helps other people like you and me. Thanks again for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.

In this episode, host Sid Graef sits down with Pat Clark, a longtime leader in the home service industry and the co-founder behind Bright Brothers Power Washing. Pat shares a raw, scrappy origin story—starting in the 2008 recession, sleeping in a van to attend training, and grinding through the first few years on “rice and beans”—before learning how mentorship, marketing, and relentless execution can turn a struggling operator into a true business builder.
 
Pat breaks down the real turning points: hiring office support and salespeople (even before he felt ready), building systems by borrowing and adapting proven frameworks, and learning painful lessons around leadership, accountability, and hiring standards (including why background checks became non-negotiable). Sid and Pat also dig into Pat’s sales philosophy—why he strongly prefers in-person estimates, how communication becomes a competitive advantage, and how a simple, repeatable sales process can help franchisees win even when competitors undercut pricing.
 
Finally, Pat explains the leap into franchising with Bright Brothers—why they chose to build a brand from scratch, what it took to handle franchise compliance and documentation, and how partnering with Contractor Nation accelerated the entire roadmap. The episode closes on mindset shifts that matter for any operator trying to scale: moving from scarcity to abundance, letting go of fear around money, and learning to grow faster by partnering with people who already built what you’re trying to build.
Resources:
 
Bright Brothers / Contractor Nation Ecosystem
Bright Brothers
Bright Brothers Franchise Opportunities
Contractor Nation
Prōfectus Sales Program (Contractor Nation) 
 
Books:
Profit First
EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System)
 
Connect with The Huge:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook Group
Transcript
 
Sid Graef:
This is— they’re trying to plow the interstate there. I-35 goes right through Austin and they had… they just had two front-end loaders pushing down the interstate. I’m like, okay, that’s like, work with what you got. But that’s right. That’s a tough day. That’s a tough day.
 
Yeah. Um, I used to live in Austin years ago. That’s where I went to school and there was an ice storm—caught ice storm once—and it… I mean it’s like… you know, the whole state shuts down. Put ice—everything shuts down. And I like… I walked to work. It was not a big deal. Wasn’t that cold, but it was so much fun.
 
Be at work. I worked at Four Seasons Hotel at the time and all the guests that were there just kinda locked down and nobody could get to and from work. So there we had a skeleton crew for three days who got to stay in a fancy hotel. I was like, nice. Wow, this is awesome.
 
But anyway… well, cool. Well, let me—lemme do an official start.
 
Hey everybody, this is Sid Graef and welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. My guest today is Pat Clark, as you can see.
 
And Pat’s been part of the home service industry for a very long time—been a leader in the industry as well. Right now you’ve got Bright Brothers power washing, and it’s… you have your own location, it’s a franchise as well. You started with Precision Pro Wash, you developed Sales Boost, and now you’re franchising.
 
So it’s a pretty big journey and I want to dig into it and learn about how you got started in business and literally—how did you start in home service business? And why… why would you do such a thing?
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah. So I do— I will correct you just a little bit there, Sid. So I don’t actually own my own location, which is amazing. And there’s a whole reason behind that, which we’ll get into.
 
But no, home services, man, is my passion. It really is. Like, I got in out of necessity. I was 20 years old. I remember going to my first event— it was back in, shoot… 2008. And I literally— me and my wife slept in our van to go to a two-day event, ’cause I couldn’t afford the hotel, but I was like, hell or high water, man, we’re gonna make this business work.
 
Right on. And so yeah, I slept… learned about non-pressure roof cleaning. Crazy, right? And just dove in.
 
I went on the internet. Back then, we didn’t have YouTube. We didn’t have Facebook like we do today, right? It was forums. So 20-plus years ago, right? Like I’m on The Grime Scene and, you know, I’ll mention some names. And these guys were like, the OG, right?
 
But OG boards, and I was researching roof cleaning, exterior cleaning, new construction, and so…
 
You know, I went in full-time and it was hard, don’t get me wrong. Like the first three to four years was very difficult for us. Rice and beans in the wintertime. You know what I mean? Learning marketing, learning all that.
 
And then I got a business coach, AC Laier. The man, the myth, the legend, right? And so he came to my location. I remember it was our last like $4,000. He literally— I pick him up from the hotel and I had a five-gallon bucket my wife was sitting on. He gets in the passenger seat. No— we’re in my work van. Right? That’s all I had. 1995 Astro Van.
 
But yeah, picked him up and I was like, “Hey man, this is my last $4,000. Where do we go from here?”
 
And you know, AC is a blessing. And so anyway, he taught me marketing. He taught me systems. He taught me how to get out there and sure enough, right? Like I just went for it.
 
And the next time he came back out, he was like, “Dude, it’s like Jesus is strapped to your back.” Like I was executing. He’s done it, I’m gonna execute, and I’m gonna put in the work. Like I’m a worker, man. I’m gonna put it in.
 
So, you know, home services… I found my passion. I started growing the businesses and then people were like, “Hey, can you speak at my event? Can you teach how you’re growing?”
 
And so I was never outgoing, right? I was scared to talk to people. I barely made it through high school. I was in special ed. Like, I could tell you a crazy background. My dad was never in the picture.
 
But I knew I wanted to talk to my previous self. Like if I can do it, I can bless somebody that they can do it, right? Take this vision, take this thing, and run with it.
 
So I started teaching at events. I started teaching safety classes. Wherever I can kind of pitch in to the industry. And it was just overwhelming, as you know, Sid. We’ve been in this a long time where people are just amazing.
 
I’ve got friends in so many states by teaching and mentoring and helping and whatever it was.
 
And it was like—going back to the very beginning—I was scared to tell people my secrets, my stories, like how we were winning because it was that scarcity mindset: “Shoot, man, I got competition in my backyard. They’re gonna take food off my plate.”
 
But I didn’t know at the time: no, man, you need to have an abundance mindset. When you bless others, it comes back tenfold.
 
And so again, just teaching and mentoring and then people were like, “Pat, can you come bid this large job? I can’t do it. It’s too big.”
 
I’m like, “Yeah, dude.” And I had these people start coming outta the woodwork, you know what I mean? You build these relationships.
 
So to say how I got into it was really through necessity. 2008, recession was right there. I was working for a builder at the time and they were slowly going outta business. The writing was on the wall. And so that’s when I went full-time.
 
Sid Graef:
Oh, that’s great. I love a scrappy origin story where you go literally—like “Hey, I was up against the wall. I didn’t really have any other choices. Like we burned the bridge and we’re gonna make this work.”
 
What were—like AC came out and helped you. So first you got a mentor, you got a coach, you got a guide, somebody that’s been down the road, it could show you where the landmines are buried.
 
But beyond that, one of the things you said that’s really unique amongst most entrepreneurial types is you said, “I just executed.” You didn’t overthink it.
 
I know myself included— a lot of guys—somebody will say, “Do it like this, like this,” and then I’ll spend the next two days trying to modify it, make it better. And you go, “Just go do it.” And don’t try to change it. Just do it and then you can change it later.
 
So that’s a really excellent point.
 
The thing I wanted to ask you about early on—once you got some help from AC—what were the main things that you did that started producing results? And was it surprising to you that it actually worked?
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah, so it was more marketing than I was… you know, I was small-minded when I first started, just like a lot of us. And I was like, “Dude, if I put out a thousand flyers, if I knock on this many doors, I’m gonna be so busy.”
 
But it was like, no, you gotta 10x that. Whatever you think it is, you gotta 10x it.
 
But what happened was when you start 10xing things, right, you can only do so much. So it was Pat wearing all the hats.
 
And so I read this article—and I’m not into Scientology—but there’s this article by L. Ron Hubbard and it said, “If you put the people in place, the money will come.” And it hit just at the right time. I don’t even know how I got this article, right? But it was like: put the people in place and the money will come.
 
And I’m like… to your point, it is like you just gotta go execute. You gotta do it and you gotta learn and you gotta fail.
 
And I was never in a management position. I was never hiring people. So if you had a pulse, I’m like, “Dude, you come work for me.” And that works to a point… until freaking SWAT shows up at your office, right? And they’re like, “Hey, this guy, you probably don’t want him on your team.”
 
And that was before I was doing background checks. Then Ask The Seal with my buddy Ed Marticelli comes into play and he’s like, “Dude, you need Ask The Seal. Start doing background checks.”
 
So you level up as you grow your business. But you don’t know what you don’t know.
 
And so for me, when I started putting people in place, I hired my office staff—my office lady—and we grew 30% because now I can focus on what my strengths are.
 
My strength wasn’t being in the office, answering the phone, doing the paperwork. I’m the guy that’s like, get out there, make it happen. Boots on the ground. Rile the team.
 
So you gotta focus on where your strengths are and hire for your weaknesses. And I learned that kind of early, I guess you’d say.
 
Because as I hired… I had really good salespeople because I knew sales was something I had to replicate to get more trucks.
 
And so I dove into the sales and hence Sales Boost—but we’ll talk about that a little later.
 
But you know, I had to dive into sales and as I hired really good salespeople, dude, I sucked. I was not a manager. I was like, “Yeah dude, you got a pulse. I’m not here to babysit. You go out and do it.”
 
And then they’re underbidding and you learn. And I failed a lot. And unfortunately, I failed really good people in the beginning. And now they could stick around, but before they couldn’t because the foundation wasn’t there.
 
So I had to build and slowly tweak as I grew the organization.
 
Sid Graef:
When you first started out—well, let’s spread it out. Like you’re eight years in, you’re ten years in, the year is now pushing 2018. You’re 10 years down.
 
In that first 10 years, what were some of your first big wins—points where you were like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this. Like, I’ve never experienced this before.”
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah, so it was our first… actually it was 2015. 2015 was a big win for us because we landed a big commercial job and we were able to get some money to propel us forward.
 
There was a couple big things, but it was a big commercial job because now we had some money to play with. I was able to buy some more vehicles at that time.
 
I remember growing into the Charlotte market actually. All my coaches were like, “Don’t go into the Charlotte market. You’re not ready.” And we truly weren’t.
 
But my brother-in-law was like, “Hey man, what does the general manager make?” I’m like, “Dude, we got a system. Let’s go into Charlotte.”
 
Well, it fell on its face four years later. Four years in, we had to close it down.
 
But when we did that, we brought everything back down—the resources, the trucks—and then I hired the people and dude, we exploded. But I had to have the foundation in there for the training, the sales meetings, the production meetings, all that stuff.
 
Sid Graef:
Did you just—like did you end up… I know you’ve had coaches and mentors, but ultimately did you make and build all your processes and systems, or did you take ’em from AC and adapt them?
 
Pat Clark:
100%. They came from all over the place. Little bits and pieces as we grew because you’d have systems to a point, and then those systems are failing.
 
Like for instance, a communication chat for the whole company. I would do big meetings and they’re like, “Yeah, Pat’s dad built this company.”
 
I’m like, “Dude, my dad wasn’t even in the picture since I was born. What are you talking about?” Because employees talk and you get this.
 
We were at like 24 employees at that time. So I had to do a big company meeting. I literally had pictures of a seven-by-five wooden trailer that I had somebody paint my logo on the side.
 
Like it started here. You know what I mean? You had to cast the vision a lot of times and kind of reset throughout the process because the saying’s true: the people who get you to $800,000 are not the people who are gonna get you to $2 million. It’s just not happening. You gotta level up your staff.
 
So with systems and processes… EOS was one that I adopted. Then I had a tracking system from another one. And you just build on these things and you get it to a point and you’re like, “Wait a minute. The tracking isn’t tracking what I really need to KPI-wise.”
 
So now we look at many more metrics now than we ever have. With Bright Brothers, we have a lot more systems, but before it was just leveling up the systems in the system.
 
So to answer your question: they come from all over depending on the industry as well. Tracking for restaurants is different than tracking for apartment complexes.
 
Sid Graef:
Alright, let me shift gears a little bit. With now Bright Brothers power washing franchise… when did you start it? It’s been two, three years?
 
Pat Clark:
Three years. Yeah, three years.
 
Sid Graef:
So you’ve got a partner… at some point along the way with Precision Pro Wash you got to this point where you’re like, “Hey, this works. Things are working. We could do it again and again. Let’s open other locations. Duplicate it.”
 
Here’s the question: from being at a point where you go, “Hey, I know this works and I know we can duplicate it,” to go and “Let’s make it a franchise”—that’s a big leap.
 
How did you handle, or were you surprised at how much work and compliance there is to run a real franchise?
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah, so there’s a lot— a lot of red tape.
 
But when we were doing… we already had a lot of locations with the previous company. So we knew how to clean in different states. We knew the marketing and tweaking little things across the country, pricing— that kind of stuff.
 
So I already knew a lot of that doing trainings and having multi-locations.
 
So when we went into Bright Brothers—my business partner—we were looking at it, we were like, “You know, we already have a system.”
 
He’s already done franchising, so it’s a no-brainer. He’s already done franchising—taking a couple companies to 90-plus locations.
 
So for me it was a no-brainer because it was like I didn’t have to reinvent the wheel. They’ve already done it.
 
They have the School of Entrepreneurship… a two-and-a-half-year college course for entrepreneurs. I just had to bolt on some of my stuff to his already-stuffed-for-our-industry stuff. So that made it a lot easier.
 
Just a little background: my business partner has 35 businesses, one of which is doing over $600 million. And then they have a hub…
 
They have Contractor Nation, and Contractor Nation is a giant hub for over 3000-plus contractors. So they already had the systems.
 
So we were gonna franchise the previous company, but it didn’t make sense. There was other “Precision” companies all over the state.
 
Plus we did holiday lights—big staple. That company name didn’t say anything about lighting. So we were like, “Let’s go with Bright Brothers.”
 
You can see the logo. It’s like facial recognition.
 
Now I will tell you: it was a lot harder to start from scratch than to have an existing brand because in the beginning you have an Item 19—you have numbers you wanna post. People are like, “Oh okay, this is a real business.”
 
We didn’t have any of that. So when we go and you do the FDD—a lot of work going back and forth, writing manuals—you name it.
 
So the first whole year was just development—franchise development.
 
And then the second year we launched our first location and then we did nine locations in the first year. And we have a couple still in the process right now of launching into this year.
 
But yeah, super good. We did very well our first year without showing numbers ’cause you can’t legally.
 
Sid Graef:
Yeah. What are your areas of strength? Because you were talking about writing the manuals and SOPs. To me I’d rather jump off a cliff than write a book of SOPs. Everybody’s got their strength. What are yours?
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah, so mine is training. That’s where I came into this and I was like, “Look, I don’t wanna operate a location. I’m the chief training officer.”
 
So I’m the visionary, if you will—high level stuff as well as training.
 
My job is to go in and set up a location for a franchisee, get them tracking, get them on the basics right out the gate.
 
Then we have stages. So I created the training program—where we go out there, set them up, teach them a sales system.
 
And we do weekly calls. We have three calls a week that we do with them for one hour that are in depth—role playing, you name it.
 
So I’m really just focused on training and growing the franchisees and be there whenever—like I’m just a call away.
 
If they have a cleaning question, that’s what I’m there for. I’ll fly out to their location if they get a big job.
 
That’s my main focus.
 
Then around us we have a COO, chief operations officer, that does the day-to-day stuff.
 
We have Andrea in marketing. We do our own marketing hub called Treehouse Marketing. We do all the marketing for all our franchisees. We have a national call center.
 
So in the beginning it was training everybody how to answer the phone, how fast do we have to answer the phone, what is the customer journey—inputting all this stuff.
 
A lot of it was already there, don’t get me wrong. It was just inputting my flare because that’s what made this thing go.
 
Sid Graef:
With Sales Boost… did you adapt that into your sales training for Bright Bros?
 
Pat Clark:
A lot of it. They already had what they call Profectus, which is the sales system that they use. So mine was very similar. Theirs was a little different. We adopted that and train on it. It’s a little more in depth—we have eight steps.
 
Sid Graef:
A lot of guests earlier in their journey… they know sales is important. They probably feel like they’re good at it because they’re personable.
 
But maybe they don’t have a sales process. You had an eight-point framework for sales. Could you walk through that quickly?
 
Pat Clark:
Yeah. So step number one is call before you show up. We’re like, “Hey, we’re on our way. By the way, we stopped by Starbucks. You need anything?”
 
Step number two is a walk-around with the customer. We wanna do an interview with the customer. Learn what’s going on. And not necessarily even talk about cleaning right away—I wanna build rapport.
 
Step number three is a free inspection around the home—look for things like nail pops on the roof, drainage, little things—nothing too crazy.
 
Number four: we go out to the car. That’s where we do measurements. Then we type up our proposal.
 
We always do options for the customer because customers like options. They don’t like one price.
 
Then we go inside and do our presentation. We go over the company—what’s different about us, why we think we’re preferred vendor. We go through the story of Bright Brothers.
 
Then we do some closes—nothing crazy. We’re not a big closing company. I always say we’re in soft washing and we do soft sales.
 
But I am gonna ask for the business.
 
And then follow-up. Ask for the business and follow up enthusiastically. That’s a big thing—amateurs focus on the front end, professionals focus on the back end.
 
How are you following up? That was huge.
 
Sid Graef:
Any market you go into there’s competition. Some undercut price. What sets Bright Brothers apart?
 
Pat Clark:
We go in with a masterful presentation. We’re large enough company that we’re gonna make sure the cleaning is right. A manager’s gonna come by, check the cleaning, make sure they’re happy.
 
We’re triple certified. We talk about training, our people, core values, response rate, customer journey.
 
If it’s down to price, we love it when it’s down to price because we teach on that.
 
We say: do you want your house to be a test house, or do you want somebody that has experience and will stand behind their work?
 
We break it down so homeowners can make an educated decision.
 
Sid Graef:
Pros and cons on in-person bids versus over the phone?
 
Pat Clark:
Never will do over the phone in a million years… because if you do a bid over the phone, now it’s just price.
 
I know there’s some areas where it’s necessary. But I’m not a fan. In-person is better. People do business with whom they like and trust, period.
 
If you show up, earn the business, they’re a customer for life. Over the phone there’s no loyalty.
 
Sid Graef:
What’s your standard for speed—how soon you can get an in-person quote done?
 
Pat Clark:
We try not to book out more than a week. If you get over a week, you start losing jobs.
 
Holiday lights—crazy. They want it now.
 
So we teach sales—replicate yourself to dominate. You need salespeople.
 
We talk about backlog—how much backlog you need to sustain. But if you see drop-off, you gotta do something.
 
Sid Graef:
Rewind back to the beginning. First two years. You’re 22, young wife, maybe one kid. Wearing 17 hats.
 
What was your biggest goal when you started, and what’s your goal now?
 
Pat Clark:
My first goal was $600 a week. It’s crazy. Everything’s relative.
 
I remember the struggle: nights, days, weekends. You sacrifice time with family.
 
Man… I bought a trailer and didn’t buy my wife a vacuum. I still remember that to this day. I’m in growth mode.
 
Sometimes it was: what bill do I pay this time?
 
And then you get one inch of snow and the state shuts down and you’re like, now what do I do?
 
I had this map in my bedroom and I would circle every time I did $400 that day and color in a jar. My goal was like $10,000 or $15,000 in one month. I remember filling it in like, dude, we’re getting closer.
 
I had an office in my closet. Funny joke: I came out of the closet because my office was in my closet.
 
We rented a little office. My wife was crushing it. Kids were there. She’d take the kids to job sites. Thank God for my wife. If I had to do it alone, impossible.
 
Sid Graef:
How did you meet your franchise partner?
 
Pat Clark:
He reached out to me.
 
I was pitching Raindrop Pro Gutter Guard to the industry. The president of Raindrop reached out and asked me to jump on a leadership call and help sell Raindrop because it’s a different sale.
 
She researched me, saw I was speaking at conferences, and reached out to Larry, my business partner. She told him he had to meet me.
 
Larry called me. I looked him up—multiple companies, doing really well. I talked to my wife, we prayed about it, and we went up to Connecticut.
 
We went up there for two days and it was life changing. What Larry built with Contractor Nation is amazing.
 
Tenure there is crazy—people there for 30, 40 plus years. Culture. The office is like Google 2.0. Different rooms, themed spaces—built to inspire creativity.
 
My wife said yes before I did. She was like, “This is what we’re gonna do.”
 
It was nerve wracking—never had a business partner. It’s like a marriage. But he already had the fundamentals.
 
We had the hub up and running in like 44 days. Built out offices, built out everything, and we were running leads.
 
Sid Graef:
Now you’re in growth mode again. What challenges do you face now, and how do you think about problem solving?
 
Pat Clark:
Growing a franchise is different. Who’s gonna buy a franchise? Different avatar.
 
There are franchise directories and websites you have to advertise in. Different shows. We have a whole sales team for franchise development.
 
Early challenge was: we didn’t have numbers. How do you pitch when you can’t show numbers?
 
We were blessed because I had a reputation in the industry, and partnering with Contractor Nation helped overcome that.
 
Nationwide, we adapt—Texas mold and mildew is different, so solutions and mix charts differ compared to Florida.
 
Sid Graef:
What leadership principles do you teach?
 
Pat Clark:
Show up—even when it’s hard. Always training.
 
Doing things correctly when nobody’s watching.
 
We have a manager track for leadership—holding people accountable the right way.
 
Own your own crap. Buck stops with you.
 
We do morning huddles every morning. We rally the team weekly. Some leaders do exercises with the crew. They have fun.
 
It’s cool to see every leader is different. And franchising is cool because franchisees bring their own leadership experience and it compounds.
 
Sid Graef:
We’ll wrap up on mindset shifts. What were one or two impactful mindset shifts through your growth?
 
Pat Clark:
Big one was hiring. I was scared to hire. Scared that if I trained someone better than me, they’d leave and start their own thing.
 
But the reality: train like you’ve never trained before. Love on them so they stay.
 
Money was another one. I didn’t realize it, but I was afraid to make money because I thought people would think differently of me.
 
I believe money amplifies what’s in your heart. Once we started making money, we could do cool things—outreach for kids, buy employees vehicles.
 
But you gotta be a good steward. You see $200k–$300k in the bank and you forget: taxes come knocking.
 
But it’s cool writing big checks because you know you’re making money.
 
And business partners. I used to be more “do it myself,” but now I’m a firm believer in bringing people in.
 
Cut the learning curve. Bring a good partner. You’ll go faster.
 
I have this ladder analogy—everyone climbs the ladder, then above the clouds there are two or three ladders you can choose. Who you associate with, who you partner with.
 
Put yourself in rooms with like-minded people who are more successful than you. Bring people with you.
 
It’s a fun ride. Enjoy it.
 
Sid Graef:
Heck yeah. Pat, I probably have a half dozen more questions, but we are out of time.
 
Thanks for taking time to jump on and share your story and insights. This is valuable for everybody listening. And it’s been a lot of fun.
 
Are you still speaking at events?
 
Pat Clark:
I don’t… I’ve kind of got my head down focused on growing this thing. Our goal is to go over 90 locations. Only 5% of franchises go over 100.
 
I’m gonna be dialed in this year. Goal is 25 locations this year—call my shot—25 locations this year.
 
I’ll be traveling, doing national shows. Busy, unfortunately.
 
Sid Graef:
Alright. Well, Godspeed and best of luck with growth. Appreciate your time.
 
Pat Clark:
Yes sir. No thank you. It’s been an honor. Thanks for having me on the show, man. This is great.
 
If somebody wants to look into Bright Brothers, what’s the web address?
 
Pat Clark:
Just go to https://brightbrothers.com/ — go down to the franchise tab and check us out. We have open houses every Tuesday at 4:00 PM. Love to have you.
 
Sid Graef:
Very cool. Thanks again, Pat.
 
Pat Clark:
Thank you.

On this episode of the Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Aaron Harper, founder of Rolling Suds Power Washing, to unpack what it really takes to build a scalable, coast-to-coast service business—without burning out or selling hype.
Aaron walks through his journey from Hollywood talent agencies (working around names like Will Smith and Jesse Eisenberg) to B2B sales, and eventually into franchise development—helping grow service brands by hundreds of units before launching Rolling Suds. He shares how he walked away from a near seven-figure “dream job” offer while his wife was six months pregnant so he could start his own franchise brand from scratch, raise capital for the first time, and acquire Rolling Suds.
 
Resources:
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Huge Foundations Facebook Group
 
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef outta Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hello my friends, it's Sid Graef. This is the Huge Transformation podcast. Thanks for joining me today 'cause we've got a great conversation with Aaron Harper. Who is Aaron Harper? Aaron is the founder and was the CEO until he hired a new CEO of rolling SUDS power washing. And that is the nation's first coast to coast power washing franchise.
And you're like franchise. We're a bunch of solo business owners. You're gonna learn a ton from Aaron and how deliberate. And thoughtful. They have been in developing a franchise brand for power washing and really helping raise the level in the industry across the board. So we had a great time on this.
We talk about a lot of stuff. There's a lot of resources that are mentioned, book books and podcasts and concepts and all of that. All of that's gonna be in the show notes. You can learn, you can check it out there. Um, but with that, please join me in this conversation with Aaron Harper and get to know my new friend and yours, Aaron Harper.
Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast, everybody is your listening. Uh, the Huge Transformation podcast is all about the journey, the journey of a business person, entrepreneur, usually in home services, but where they started and how they became successful and some of the challenges along the way.
And I'm really excited I've got Aaron Harper on with us today. And as your, your name tag says Aaron, founder of Rolling Suds. First of all, thanks for being on the show with me today. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to get, uh, get to know you and, and talk about, uh, talk about all the stuff that we're gonna talk about.
Yeah, a hundred percent. So I've got like 4,000 questions for you, but, uh, a little bit of background for you is not for you about you. So you grew up in California, you were a skater, surfer kid, got into, uh, looked like you wanted to get into the film industry and as an agent. Mm-hmm. And then somehow transitioned out of that and started working as an employee and a franchise, carpet cleaning franchise, and then kind moved up the ranks and then, uh, there's a whole lot more to the story.
One thing that I, I can't wait to, we'll do it a little bit later, but you and I share something in common that is so obscure. It's like one in 10 million. I was shocked when I saw it. Not in what, just in some of the homework. Um, which, which might be fun for us to discuss a little bit, but how did you go from the.
Skater kid to arts and entertainment, wanna be an agent and to get into franchising, like, tell us the backstory. I'll dig in a little bit more as we go. Yeah. So, um, you know, I, I, I, I grew up, uh, in Southern California, you know, my grandfather was really into film. I was really into film. I studied film. I saw Entourage, thought I wanted to be Ari Gold, except just a little bit nicer.
Um, and, um, and, and then, you know, kind of put that, put that goal in my mind to, to do that. Um, left college, ended up having an internship, working for, you know, a, a, a producer, um, movie producer. Then went and worked at, um, talent agency and ended up working my way up as kind of an assistant slash like a agent and training.
Working on the teams of like Jesse Isenberg, Melissa, Leo, will Smith, and like a bunch of other ones. And, uh, basically realized that like I didn't want anything that my bosses had and they were miserable. And it was just like I was working so, so hard. And I'm not afraid of hard work, but like it was, I mean, if you know anything about the Hollywood industry, like it's about as bad as you, as you think it is in terms of like all of the stereotypes that you've heard about the backside of the Hollywood industry are true and then some.
And so it was just not a life that I wanted. I was really miserable. And, um, you know, I, I just said, made the decision to kind of abandon, abandon ship there. Um, worked, uh, in kind of a B2B sales role, um, to try to put some numbers on my, on my skillset. Like I learned a lot during that experience. Like, I learned how to manage really difficult personalities.
I learned the importance of relationships. I learned how to stand out in a crowd of many aggressive, hungry people. So I, I, I, I value the experience, but it wasn't where I wanted to be 20 years later. Right. And, but in Hollywood, like so much of what you do is based upon who, you know, what parties you can get into, like all these different, like who, who you can have coffee with, like very kind of, um, obscure and like unquantifiable things.
Mm-hmm. It's like very squishy. It's like what's your, your reputation like? So I wanted to put some numbers on my, my efforts and ended up working at a Fortune 15 company and being their top sales rep. Nationwide, um, and said, okay, I, I've got something here. And a buddy of mine was working in franchising, had a carpet cleaning brand, and um, he said, you should get into franchise development.
And I was like, well, I don't really want to build Wendy's location, so what are you talking about? He was like, no, like 1-800-GOT-JUNK is a franchise. Chem Dry is a Fran franchise. Like there's all these businesses that in the home service space that are franchised that you can, um, that you can grow and build.
And, um, I loved the idea of helping people become business owners. So I emailed his boss every three weeks until he hired me with no response, no responded emails, um, till like email number seven. Okay. Um, and um, and then I just worked in, so I worked there, um, grew that brand by about 200 units in three years, then worked at a car, uh, drywall repair franchise, grew that by about 223 units in two years.
And then I was like, wait a minute, I can do this on my own. Um, and I left that to go find a business to franchise in the service space. Um, I wasn't particularly looking for a power washing business. Um, I was looking a bunch at a bunch of different industries, HVAC, roofing, plumbing, solar tree care insulation, lawn care line striping, epoxy coatings.
Like we looked at, like, I looked at like 23 different businesses, but, um, power washing like the, the, the Wendling started, um, rolling uds in 1990. And, and they're just great people that I knew I could partner with. Um, and it was a great business. It's, it's a great business and I knew it could, I could replicate it in any, any market.
We went into and acquired the brand in January of 23, and since January of 23, we launched our first two franchisees in June of 23. And we've gone from a single location, power washing business in Pennsylvania to 328 units operating in 30. 36 states, um, nationwide now. Okay. So that's, there, you're, that's the Reader's Digest version and jumping and going from beginning to end.
Let's dig in, in the middle just a little bit. Sure. Well, in, in, uh, 2022, I, again, in that year, it's when you left the, uh, the, the patch franchise thing mm-hmm. In, uh, the, your bio since you were fired in like January, 2022 and your wife was expecting at the same time, which seems like a really scary time to go, Hey, I'm gonna.
Not get another job, but we're gonna go build something. We're gonna get in franchising, but I don't even know what it is yet, like sell that. So it's actually him saying how you sell that, it's actually even worse than that. It's actually, yeah, it's even crazier than that. So my, um, my job that I was working at wanted me to take on a brand from scratch that they would've paid me.
Um, I would've had a, you know, title with the word president in it. Um, they wanted to, on target earnings would've been somewhere between 850 and 1,000,800 50,000 and a million dollars, um, in, in earnings annually. Um, I would've been given two other brands and been able to incubate a brand from scratch with an unlimited budget like it was on paper.
Probably the best you're gonna get from a corporate standpoint in a job. Um, and my wife was six months pregnant and she had heard me kind of like over the years. Continually try to be an employee, but want to run everything and be constantly frustrated that I wasn't able to like, put the pieces in the place that I knew they needed to be put.
And so I, I came to her with that job offer and I was like, but I don't want to do this job. And in fact, I want to find a business to franchise. I don't know what the business is yet. I'll have to find it. We will have to raise capital. I've never raised capital before. Um, but I'll find the capital. Um, and we're also gonna be an investor and we're gonna, if we do this, I'll be, you know, one of the biggest, if not the biggest investors here.
Yeah. Um, and I was like, what do you think? You know? And um, so she basically was like, Erin. I know that whatever you're gonna do, you'll take care of us. Um, so, and my wife's said I'm, I'm the sole provider of income in my house. So, yeah. She goes, go do what you want to do and you'll take care of us. And I was like, all right.
So I had my kind of like marching orders and so for the next few months I, I looked for the right business. And this was in, so this was not in January of 22. It was in September of 2022 when I met the wend lanes. Okay. I decided I was going to, um. To, uh, start to do this in July of 22. Um, but didn't know where I was gonna go and how I was gonna find it.
I ended up acquiring the brand in January of 23, and I got let go from my company when I let them know that I was going to go franchise a business that wasn't gonna compete with theirs in October of 22. So from October of 22, we go on Cobra Insurance. No job, no income, gotta put together an FDD, gotta raise the capital, acquire the brand, do the deal.
And I'd never done any of that stuff before. So it's actually more insane than Yeah. Yeah. So we, um, your, your wife, was this your first child or your second child? You're expecting? Sec second. We had an, uh, 17 month old boy. This was our, um. Second girl. Yeah. And how long had you been married at this time?
'cause your wife sounds like a remarkable person to go. She's a wonderful human. Okay. You're saying, but let's go. Yeah. Yeah. She's a wonderful human. Um, so we celebrated our fi, we just, uh, celebrated, um, our six years, uh, of marriage. Yeah. So we were, um, three years married at that point. That's cool. And you got married in Santorini, Greece, right?
I did, yeah. We got married in Santorini, Greece, which was my wife's idea. Okay. I was originally not, um, excited about it. It ended up being the best possible decision that we could have made. We had 23 of our best friends and fam immediate family members, um, in, in Greece with us. And we got a beautiful trip out of it, 25 person wedding.
Um, and, uh, it was one of some of the best, best, uh, moments of our life. That's phenomenal. Were you in EA in the north where Yeah. So we actually stayed in one of those like white houses. Yeah, the Airbnb. Like white, white with the blue roof. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that was when I read that in your, your bio or whatever.
Excuse me. That's where I got really excited. My wife and I, we actually got married in Santorini. Oh, did you? In 1992. And I was like, I don't know anybody else that's gotten married there. It's very, that's that's so cool. Yeah. It's very, a lot of people get married there, but it's a very kind of niche thing here in the, um, us to A, have an overseas wedding and B have it B in, I mean, it's gorgeous.
Like, I, I recommend anyone go there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We actually, um. We had been vagabonding in Europe for about six months at the time, and Oh, I love that. Presided. We're gonna get married. And so it wasn't a legally recognized wedding, but we got one of the tourist boats and went out to the volcanic island there in the middle mm-hmm.
Of the cold and then hiked up to the rim of the volcano and exchanged valleys. That's amazing. And, uh, that's so cool. Sail back. So anyway, that's our, that's our common thread. Little now. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Right. Cool. Well, I wanna start digging into some really cool stuff, um, with, you know, as you know, with, um, the huge convention, you know, we serve people that are in home services, but most of them are independent operators.
Most of 'em are, yep. Smaller businesses. Uh, maybe it's their first foray into business, generally speaking. It's a guy that was a great technician that decided I wanna be a business owner. Yep. Just like the, the E Myth. But you, in franchise world, um, you knew very clearly you wanted to build a franchise brand, didn't know what it was gonna be.
You settled on Rolling Suds. What were the criteria that you had that you said like, these are the things that have to be true for me to want franchise this and, and blow it up? Yeah, so I had kind of a list of items, uh, and that allowed me to really be objective with the businesses that I was evaluating.
Is like, how many, how many boxes does this brand or does this business check? Mm-hmm. The first and most important one is that we would have incredible people behind the brand. So when, when you franchise a business, there are two different businesses. Okay. There's the, the, the core business, which in this case would be the original power washing business.
Yeah. And then in tandem next to that business is the franchise business. My intention was never to buy. Fully this business, it was to raise capital and start another business next to that business that replicates that business. Mm-hmm. So the people in which I partner with could make or break the entire opportunity because if they're not the right people, then it doesn't matter how good the business is.
I'm a people first, number, second kind of guy. So that was like the most important thing is like, make sure that the person that I'm, or people or persons that I'm partnering with are the right people. And the Wendling family have built a great business over the last 35 years and great systems and things that I knew I could replicate.
So that was number one. Number two was, um. Unskilled labor, I think skilled the skilled trades, you can make a lot of money there. The issue is, is that as an owner that doesn't have that license or doesn't have that skillset, you're limited into how fast you can grow that business based upon how many people you can hire that have those skills.
Yeah. Um, and that, that's a big challenge. So, you know, with the way we power wash, it can get someone trained up in a couple days and be rocking and rolling. Um, a large total addressable market was important to me. That was a not, this is also a non-negotiable. So every building and structure that you drive by is a potential customer in power washing, which as many of your listeners probably probably know that, um, uh, a heavily fragmented, um, market.
So, uh, based on my experience, the more fragmented the industry is. Uh, the easier it is to disrupt. Yeah. Meaning that you can come in and basically just, you know, be, be more sophisticated, um, and, and get in a bunch of units and, and, and get them open and you can really kind of like set yourself aside. So there's a lot of mom and pop operators in the, um, power washing space.
There's only a handful of like, larger players, which makes, um, makes becoming and building a franchise brand, um, easier than, than otherwise. Um. Both residential and commercial customers was also a non-negotiable. Um, you can build a great residential business, um, in the services space. However, the way you build a sizable, um, service business, um, is by also having commercial as well.
Um, so our franchisees nationwide are about 60 to 70% commercial on average. Mm-hmm. Um, which, which obviously presents more opportunity for, uh, the, the franchise owner to, to grow a larger, uh, larger business. Yeah. Um, high margins for the franchisee, meaning 20%, um, profit margins or higher for the franchisee once the business is at scale.
Not with one truck, not with two, like once it's at, you know, if you're gonna buy a three to five unit franchise system and get five to seven trucks on the road, like, or, uh, you know, what does that look like for the franchisee? And so that was. That was important to me. Um, because there needs to be enough meat on the bone for the franchisor to take a royalty as well as the franchisee to get a good cash on cash return for their investment.
Yeah. Um, uh, I wanted it to cost. Be a limited cost for a franchisee to to scale. So like if you think about the opposite of a rolling sets business, for example, like it costs $1.2 million to build another McDonald's, you might net on a McDonald's 150 to $175,000. So you're a 1.2 million in with a bunch of debt and you know, at scale you're, you're netting 150 to 175,000.
So I wanted franchisees to be able to scale with less cash out of pocket. So in power washing you're buying an additional truck and maybe additional territory, maybe it's 125 grand, including employees and your down payment on a truck and some marketing expenses to open an additional unit, right? So, um, that obviously increases the cash on cash return for them because you add another unit, you get that truck up and going, you keep going.
Um, so those were all kind of like non-negotiables on my checklist. There were a couple, um. Things that were really difficult to find that were like nice to haves but not need to haves. Um, and so the first was like a, a different product, meaning like the, not just like the experience for the customers better.
'cause I'm gonna do that with that which, with, with whatever brand that I franchise. Yeah. But like, do we have a better product? And so the Wendling have tinkered with different equipment. They're kind of known, at least from what I understand in the power washing industry as like people who tinker and try things and kind of go against the grain.
Yeah. Um, and, and basically like with their truck and their process like. We can do a 3000 square foot house in 20 minutes, start to finish, set up, tear down everything, we can hit five stories from the ground above that. We'll rent drones, like, yeah. So the truck is more expensive. We, we run the truck differently.
Like there's a moat basically, um, around what we're doing. And so if you think of the most obvious example of this in history, it would be the iPhone. The iPhone entered the market. The best next to that was like the Nokia brick phone and like the Blackberry. The Blackberry, yeah. And like everyone's been trying to catch up with them ever since and they built a trillion dollar company as a result of just having simply a better product, right?
So, um, the other nice to have and not need to have was little to no competition in the franchise space. So. If you think about like market penetration, every brand I looked at had like four to five to sometimes 10 other franchises that were doing the same thing already. Okay. With a different logo, right?
And so you already have an 800 pound gorilla and restoration. You've got, uh, ServPro, you've already got an 800 pound gorilla in junk. You've got 1-800-GOT-JUNK, right? So like you can go in and try to capture market share away from the 800 pound gorilla. I would just argue that it's harder to do that than it is to capture market share away from let's say independent mom and pop operators.
Yeah. So when I looked at, um, the power washing industry, there just simply wasn't a coast to coast power washing brand that had kind of come in and set, set the, the standards. Um, and so I saw an opportunity to become the 800 pound gorilla in the space. Um. And so this was the only brand out of all the ones that I looked at, that checked every single box on the checklist for me and how I think about franchising a service business.
Yeah. Was that general, was that surprising to you? Were you expecting to get like, okay, I'm gonna get eight outta my 10 and I'm gonna land the plane on this and run. Yeah. But to get 10 out 10 shocking. I didn't think I was gonna get 10 out 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it definitely, you know, in the industry you check all the boxes, it's, it's very fragmented.
There's no, yeah. National leader by, you know, any stretch that is becoming one. But, uh, getting a little bit granular when you talk about, you know, like the, the way the equipment, uh, is set up and stuff for the, you've got, you run a box truck with a thousand gallon tank, is it more efficient and more productive because the equipment's better?
You get more PSI or volume? Or is that just the structure and setup? So. It's everything working fast. Yeah. So if you layer all of the things on top of each other, it's it's process. It's what the junior technician is doing versus the senior tech and their check, their checklist on how they operate. Like everything that you read in the E-Myth, like everything has a process.
There's a flow. It's like someone comes up to a house, everyone knows what happens. The, we're able to be more liberal with gallon flow because we carry so much water. So we're, we're doing a lot of soft washing. We can be, we can use pressure when need to, but like, the whole kind of like SOPs of the process kind of flows like a symphony in a lot of ways.
And like, you know, we've, we've had question marks of like, oh, what's different? Right? I can just rent a thousand dollars machine and go do it on my own. And so last year we, we actually were like, like an influencer was like, Hey, uh, because he had me on his podcast and we were like, yeah, we could do it in 25 minutes or less.
And everyone was like, no, you can't, blah, blah, blah. Like. I mean, we, it was like half a million people saw this post and were ripping them apart in the comments. It takes me TA 12 pack and 12 hours to do a 3000 square foot house. Like every single thing you can think of. So he is Aaron. What if I flew to Nashville and we go, uh, we, we just live stream it on Twitter and we'll find it.
We'll find Was this Chris Corner with the, uh, corner office? Yeah. Chris Corner. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Chris was like, Chris called me up. I'm like, yeah, dude, I'll fly you out tomorrow. Like, let's do it. So we couldn't find a 3000 square foot house. Like our day was stacked with different things.
And we were like, you know what? We'll just grab what we can. We, we found a 4,825 square foot house, eight bedrooms, eight bath, uh, three unit. Kind of like triplex. Yeah. And, uh, and my, my, my business partners were like, well, Aaron, we're either gonna make a fool of ourselves and not get it done in under 25 minutes, or we're gonna get it done and either way it'll be good tv.
Yeah. And we did the whole thing. Um. Uh, we did the whole thing in, in 22 minutes and 13 seconds with two guys. Hell yeah. Start to finish. Yeah. You know, and live the live stream, the whole thing. And Chris replied on every single comment with the video of us doing it. We recorded the whole thing. It was really funny.
Yeah. Um, so I saw them do that before I decided to franchise this business, and I was like, okay. Like franchisees can make some, make some money here. Yeah. There's room to play. I think my favorite comment in that video was when Chris, when you handed him the wand or whatever, and he, he triggered it and he is like, oh my God, my testosterone just went up to a million or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. No, that's a lot of fun. Um, with, so from the time you, you're like, all right, rolling Sun. Is it, we're gonna acquire this brand or we're gonna franchise alongside of it, um, it looks like, and you, you like correct me on the timing, but looks like you spent about eight months getting it.
Ready to franchise, like, yeah. So from July, so from July of 22, basically to February, um, of, uh, end of February of 23, I was building systems, vetting suppliers, um, kind of coming up with the whole infrastructure for the brand, modeling it out, knowing when I needed to hire people, raising capital. Yeah. All that stuff.
What had to be absolutely right before you launched, I, I mean, I had to, a lot of people launch a franchise with like the least amount of capital possible, and they have no idea what they're doing. Mm-hmm. You, that that is why you see so many issues in franchising is the, the average franchisor has never been in a franchisor before.
Like they're good at running a power washing business. Yeah. Or whatever that thing is. And so I basically needed like a franchisor fundamentally. Their job is to provide a system in which a, an average person can follow and have like an average rate of return, um, based upon, you know, on an average day.
Like, it's, it's all about like averages. So a franchisor is not a, a, a marketing company, a franchisor is not a call center. A franchisor is not like, but a franchisor needs to curate all of those things because all those things are still necessary to run the business. So basically it was like, all right, I mean, we've got like 44 different vendors that we've got service level agreements with.
Mm-hmm. Um, call center marketing vendors, outbound, cold, cold calling, um, you know, accounting, uh, insurance, payroll. And so I had to basically spend. Months vetting these vendors, talking to other franchisors that use the vendors, asking them about their experience, then negotiating a contract so they can't overprice franchisees.
Like all that takes a significant amount of time. Yeah. So you want to go to market with that stuff figured out. You don't want to go to market and then be like, oh I need an accounting partner because Fran, you want that locked in and dialed. Yeah. Um, you need to have an LMSA learning management software so you can transition the information and do a sufficient knowledge transfer.
You need a training program that actually works and is effective at training people on how to do things. So you need to be able to do all that. You need the right team in place. So you need to do recruiting of the people that you're gonna bring in. 'cause you don't launch with just yourself or you shouldn't launch with just yourself.
Um, there's legal elements that you have to figure out. There's registrations. There's a lot of work that goes into properly franchising a business. Yeah. Well, and, and so I'm not from franchise world, but seeing, you know, hundreds and hundreds of home service level businesses, like people talk about system, system systems.
But how do you, how do you start from thinking, uh, what is your thinking when you start from a position of I need to set up systems and vendors and vet all this in a way so it can scale to a thousand not, yeah, you're not figuring out along the way. It's gotta be good enough where it can be duplicated fast.
Like what do you, so in your background, do you naturally think that way? Or is that just what you learned in your franchise experience with Patch Guys? I think I'm a pretty big picture guy generally. Um mm-hmm. Like I, I, you know, before I launched this, I was like, okay, here's our 10 to 15 year goals. You know what I mean?
And then you backwards into like, how do you, how do you get there and what, what needs to be true in order for those, those things to happen? And, and I also think in terms of like constraints, like what are the things that would get in, in the way of those things happening and how do we like, avoid those, uh, potential roadblocks?
Like now, like what needs to be true to avoid those? So it's like what needs to be true in the business for us to be able to. Scale and then what needs to be true to like, avoid the things that could potentially get in the way of us, of, of us scaling. And some of that had to do with just identifying the correct franchisee.
Um, we are not bringing in people that want to power wash buildings. Um, and we made that as a decision from the beginning, um, when we kind of understood what it takes to get this business to scale. Yeah. And what would for the franchise owner to justify the investment in rolling suds, what type of business would they need to build in what period of time in order to justify the investment?
Right. And it just simply didn't make sense based on what we're trying to build, to have someone come in and run a truck for a year and a half themselves and figure it out. Yeah. Um, so that was one thing. Um. We, we, you know, one of the, the issues that a lot of brands have is like site selection slash like truck production.
So we built a different company with the founding, um, Wendling family called Rolling such products that literally gets all of the trucks so franchisees and we built all of them. Like, 'cause you, you, you think about like identifying suppliers that can help. Yeah. Sometimes in one month we'll build two trucks and in the next month we'll need to build 30.
Oh wow. So there's no supplier that is going to be able to staff up or down accordingly to be able to handle that. Yeah. And it's gonna get in the way of speed. And so we invested money and built a different company to make sure that we could open the units that we, we sell, that we award. Um, so there's just a variety of things that, and then it's just like, how do you target those specific things and, and hyperfocus on solving that, that potential problem before it becomes, uh, before it becomes a problem.
So you really need to be able to like zoom out really, really far and then zoom in really, really far as well, and kind of be able to go in and out. Yeah. Okay. You, you kinda leaned into what my next question was, like with your franchisee, what is, what's an ideal franchisee look like? What is your, your most successful franchisees?
What are their common traits or what are you Yeah. You know, what do they have? So that makes great. So we tell, when we tell prospective franchisees and we turn away about five. People per month that have capital and like wanna move forward that aren't right for us. Yeah. So that roughly comes out to like a million to 1,000,002 in franchise fees and upfront expenses that we turn down monthly.
And the reason for that is, is it's gonna cost me more money to get that person out my system, then I'm gonna make bringing them in. Um, so you're mitigating headache and, and uh, we're mitigating Yeah, we're just mitigating it. Yeah, we're, we're premeditating it. Um, so the, the, the franchisee that we're, that we're looking for generally has a higher risk tolerance than your average franchisee.
And the reason is, is we're largely commercial. And if, for anyone who's listening to this, if you've done commercial power washing work before, the sales cycles are longer. The actual completion of the work takes longer, and then the pay cycle in which you get paid takes longer, much longer. So, so, so if you're carrying the cost, let's say it's a three month pay cycle or three month, uh, sales cycle, let's say it's a, a two week completion.
Let's say it's a 45 day pay cycle, that is literally six months of carrying costs, right? So, um, so in order to withstand that, you a have to have a lot of money set aside for the business. Mm-hmm. You also have to have like the stomach to push through in that. Now what offsets that is 30 to 40% of your business being residential, but the economics make way more sense on commercial than they do on residential for our business, especially with the speed in which we can do the work.
Um. So, um, we're looking for people who enjoy being in front of people in their community. Um, the kind of like technician who likes to tinker is probably not our franchisee. Mm-hmm. Um, but the guy or the gal who can like go to the BNI make every single person at the B and I like and trust them in one hour.
Like that's our person. Yeah. Um, that's our franchisee. Um, and, and, and you know, what we try to have our franchisees focus on is like during business hours, it is revenue generation. Like that is the only thing that matters. Like you can obsess over the ops, but at the beginning, if you're not selling jobs all day long, when you can actually get in front of other humans that need our services.
Yeah. Then you don't have a business, right? And so we provide a lot of support in terms of like, we're targeting national accounts now we're, we have vendors that generate outbound leads for franchisees, both residential and commercial. But like, we can't grow locations by ourselves. If we did, there'd be no reason to franchise.
Sure. We need franchisees who are willing to get out in their community and shake hands and kiss babies all day long so that they could win the $37,000 hospital or the $52,000, you know, thousand space parking garage. That's five stories high. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's our, that's our, um, that's our buyer.
Um, and so we're just ruthless about making sure that that's the person, that's the type of person we bring in. And anyone who's not that we just kindly tell them that they should go do something else. Right now with 328 units, uh, is that, that's not 3 28 locations, but like a location may have five units or five territories or multiple, right?
So, so we have 92 franchise owners. Okay. That own 328 units. Territories. Territories. Each territory will be required to have a truck in it. At least one truck in it. Yeah. In a period of time. They're not, if they open three territories, they're not putting three trucks on the road, right out the gate, but within the next 18 months, they will add three trucks within those three territories.
Okay. Within a year and a half. By, by buying three, three territories. So I've got two questions for you that tie into that. One is with what have you seen, and then what did, what do you anticipate with, with that level of scale? Like where's the tipping point of network effect? You mentioned you're starting to see national contracts and stuff talked about.
Mm-hmm. You know, there's a, a gas station or a Starbucks or a what, you know, you got multiple, multiple locations. How, how much of a network effect do you have from 90 units to 328? I mean, did it tip yet, or you, so we have a hundred, so most of our franchisees launched. If you think about the lifecycle of our brand, it's like three years.
It's, yeah, so like, it's less than that. Okay. So like June of 23 was when we launched our first two franchisees. September of 23, we launched three more. And then, um. Uh, and then, um, in December of 23, we launched two more. So we only launched seven franchisees in 2023. Yeah. And we did that on purpose because it's like we're still figuring out our systems.
Like I didn't let anyone come more than three people come to training, and we only did three trainings the first year. Okay. Because we had to figure out stuff. And if we miss something in the training, it's a lot easier to retrain two people in their market than it is to retrain eight. Yeah. So it's less expensive and Right.
So like we were just careful in terms of how many we launched. Um, now we awarded 90 units in that first year to 30 different franchisees, but we only launched seven on purpose. Okay. So the majority of our franchisees launched last year or this year. So if you think about like. Our scale, like franchisees are still very, very new.
Yeah. Like very new. And the first two years of any person's business, whether it's a franchise or not, a franchise is terrifying. Yeah. Like, no matter what, like we're gonna provide a ton of tools and support, but you still have to be a business owner and be able to get through being in charge of payroll and operations and sales and marketing and all of the things that you have to be as a business owner.
Um, we have 86 of the 92 franchisees open and operating. Okay. So 86 of them open. Um, and we have 119 trucks on the road, I believe is the number, um, last I checked. Okay. Might be more than that. So there have been multiple, second, third, and fourth trucks have been added. Um, uh. But you know, like, I think it's important to, to say like not everyone is gonna be able to scale to three trucks within 18 months.
Like we will have resales. There is absolutely zero way around it. Like if we had a hundred percent success rate on everyone scaling to three trucks no matter what, like, I don't know. I don't even know that we would franchise, like we could just do it ourselves. Sure. If we had a hundred percent success rate, if it was that easy.
Um. But I will say though, we, because we've been so ruthless in our quality and turning so many people away, that the, the, the Fran, the, a large portion of the franchisees are exceeding their development schedules. Meaning they're adding their third truck on month six instead of month 18, which is the minimum requirement to add their third truck.
Like, yeah. And, and when we deliver a national account as an example, that requires one truck fully dedicated to that one job that we delivered to them on their third month of business. Or like, we delivered a contract that, you know, would be one truck annually. Uh, and the guy was 60 days into business and it's a four, it was a four or five year contract doing schools.
Um, wow. And um. In Illinois. So it's like we come to him, he's like six 60 days into business and we're like, Hey, we've got this job for you. Like, let's rock and roll. And he's like, oh my God, I need to buy my second truck. 60 days into business just to service this one job. Now that's obviously like not gonna happen for every single franchisee, but like that's our goal is like trying to like help franchisees get to scale as quickly as possible, which then obviously justifies the investment.
Like we're not an inexpensive franchise, so it's like how do we get franchisees to increase their cash on cash return, um, in a way that that makes, uh, makes it make sense for them. Um, but what I will say is like, if a franchisee comes in and follows the model and does what we we tell them to do and doesn't try to reinvent it, and doesn't try to like come up with their own things, like just come in and imitate.
I always say imitate before you iterate. Otherwise, don't buy a franchise. If you want to iterate before you imitate, like just go start your own business. Do you go, makes way more sense. Do your own thing. Yeah. But like the ones who were like ruthless about, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Have like resounding success.
Yeah. Was the, has the rapid growth of rolling suds, was that what you anticipated? Or does it surprise you at how fast? So I knew I was gonna be able to award franchise territories. Like I knew that was gonna be, that's just like my background. That's like what I did before. Yeah. So like, all I had to do was just keep doing what I was doing before there.
Um, what I didn't know is how that it would grow this quickly. Like we, we really caught lightning in a bottle. Um, and I think it's just a lot of like the right place, right time kind of thing. And, and I mean, execution is a big piece of it, but, um, you know, fortunately, like I raised a significant amount of money to, to do this.
Mm-hmm. Uh, a lot of franchisors are heavily dependent upon franchise sales in order to kind of like, yeah. And what, what happens then is you have, like, you have someone who's a franchisor who's deciding whether or not to tell a franchisee or a prospective franchisee that they can't sign, or if they wanna make payroll or not.
Right? Like, so they're gonna be like, they might be forced to, to bring someone in who's not gonna be ideal. Um, because of needing to make payroll or whatever, whereas we were like, we're gonna raise more money than we need. Um, so that we could pre-vet in the infrastructure so that we could handle the growth.
The biggest, I think, most surprising part for me, at least early on was, um, like we're heavy commercial. Mm-hmm. It took, um, our founders 27 years to get anything more than 20% of their business being commercial. No kidding. And franchisees will join and be 85% commercial in their first month. Yeah. Um, based upon the systems that we built and kind of where we fit in the marketplace.
Right. And big benefits of going of commercial then. Is it, is it, um, the, you know, the average ticket's way higher? Is it frequency more in commercials? It's, I mean, you name it, it's, yes. Like really the average tickets higher, uh, the. Uh, the, the headache on the backend from a customer standpoint is lower. Um, the, the margins are, are higher.
Mm-hmm. Um, the, uh, the, the work is often contracted for multiple years. At the very least. It's reoccurring in nature versus, but oftentimes it's recurring, meaning it's gonna happen every quarter or every year, um, or every month. Um, uh, I mean, every, every possible benefit you could think of, uh, exceeds the residential side.
Now the, the benefit of residential is you're getting paid immediately. Yeah. The, the margins still make sense. They're just not like as, as good as, as commercial. Um, and you diversify your, your revenue. Um. I think, uh, you know, if you, just as an example, like if you, and this is completely theoretical. If you had a business that was doing a million dollars a year and you had four customers and they were each generating $250,000 a year in recurring revenue for you, and you lose one of those customers, your business is worth nothing.
Whereas if you have $700,000 per year coming in from residential work and you'd lose that $250,000 a year customer, you, your business still has significant value, right? Yeah. So, um, so how do we help, what we think through is like, how do we help franchisees think through creating a business that has enterprise value that they can potentially sell one day or maybe pass on to their kids.
Like, we're only looking for people who want to build businesses, not jobs. And, and oftentimes the technician that, the one that we keep talking about, the solo operator that runs a truck like. If he stops or if she stops doing work, the business doesn't generate revenue. They can't go on vacation. They can't Yeah.
Offset. And, and it's really difficult without a significant kind of amount of capital to actually build a scalable power washing business. 'cause there's just not enough meat on the bone on a one truck business as a solo operator to take that money and then reinvest it in other trucks and this and that, unless you're saving for multiple years in a row.
So like franchisees come in, they're not expecting to be like rich off of one truck. They're not joining this business because they want one truck. They're joining the business. 'cause they want three to five to even more trucks, um, than that. Mm-hmm. All right. Um, the, I heard on another show you talk about.
Responsible franchising. And I feel like we, we started actually going in that route when you were talking about the criteria that you have and how dedicated you are to making sure that your franchisees are the right type of people. But yeah, tell me more about responsible franchising. What do you mean by that?
What's the philosophy behind it? So, yeah, so like, franchising in my, I mean, that's all like, it's been the bulk of my adult, um, career, uh, working career. It, it's, it's a pretty haphazard industry. Mm-hmm. Um, because most people don't know what they're doing. Um, and I mentioned that earlier, like they, I mean, they just don't, like, they, they have a great business that bakes bread, but they don't know how to package it up and get a thousand units and like, make sure that the return on investment for franchisees makes sense.
Um, and so, you know, I think about responsible franchising through like. The lens of like choosing the right franchisees, being transparent with them in the sales process. We're not telling anyone this is a get rich quick scheme. We're not telling anyone that they can sit on their couch and that no one's gonna have to work in this business.
We're telling 'em they're gonna work and use all of their time, um, to grow this business. Um, it's making sure that there's adequate capital on the franchise war side and the franchisee side. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I think it takes conservatively, uh, 500,000 to a million dollars to get a franchise off, off the ground.
Um, conservatively. Um, realistically, in order to get to the scale that we have gotten, you will invest millions and millions of dollars. Um, and you will not end up having a meaningfully sized business until there's at least a hundred open units on the road. Like, you don't really, in a franchise really make money until that point.
Like you, you, you are investing so much into hiring people and growing and marketing and redoing your website and all of this stuff. Mm-hmm. And, and a wild stat for you is there's, there's about 4,000 franchisors, um, in the US Yeah. And 680 of them have more than a hundred units. So if you think about like profitability 680 Okay.
And only 90 of them. Got to a hundred units in less than 10 years. Wow. Wow. So if you think about churn, like if you're not making significant money until you get to 150, let's just call it units that are open and operating and generating revenue, then you're just gonna have a lot of franchisors that just burn out.
Yeah. And so the, the thing that's gonna change that is bringing in franchisees that are fully capitalized and willing to go through that growth rate, a franchisor that's fully capitalized. Um, and unfortunately, most of the franchisors that end up talking to me at different conferences that I go to, asking me how, how I did it, the first question I ask them is, how much money do you have to go towards franchising?
Yeah. And nine times outta 10, it's less than, uh, a hundred thousand dollars and. Probably six times outta 10, it's less than $50,000. No kidding. So there's, there seems to be this like mentality among franchisors. It's like, oh, I'm just gonna sell some franchise and collect passive income. And that is the absolute dumbest thing you can think of.
And the quickest way to, like bankruptcy. Yeah. Like you have to be willing to put everything on the line and, and raise, you know, potentially millions of dollars and, and, and just to get the thing off the ground. And 99% of franchisors aren't doing that. Yeah. And so responsible franchising to me is going in with eyes wide open as a franchisee and as a franchisor, because I can't do this without successful franchisees.
And the franchisees that we bring in can't do this without a successful franchisor that is cash flowing, that has the money, that has the ability to grow the brand. Yeah. Um, and so as I kind of acquired this brand and really went, went all in, I was like, we're gonna do this differently. We're not gonna bootstrap this.
Um, we're gonna bring on the right people. We're gonna pre-vet in growth and we're gonna do it fast, but we're gonna do it the right way. And, um, and that's, that's, that's been what we've done. Yeah. And then you said, you know, early on you had to, before you started, uh, franchising, you had to raise capital, but you'd never done that before.
Like what was your go-to strategy to raise money you hadn't been? Oh gosh. Raising money's the worst thing in the world. Um. So it's so hard. Um, I didn't know what a waterfall was. I didn't know what a class A share was. A class B. I didn't know what a preferred return was. I didn't even know how to spell cap table.
Um, but I knew that we needed money to French. I know, I knew how much money we needed to franchise this business, Uhhuh. And, um, what I'll say to anyone who's interested in raising capital, um, is you can make absolutely anything work on a spreadsheet. Mm-hmm. Um, anything. Yeah. Like you can make a spreadsheet.
Say what, literally, whatever you want it to say. Yeah. So, so what you have to do is you have to pick a number from a pre-seed kind of valuation standpoint, um, that you can, that you can go to sleep with, wake up with. You, you can talk to someone and justify and look 'em in the eyes. And ultimately with a franchise, there's no other franchisees, uh, in the, in our case, like, so all of what I'm talking about is completely theoretical and made up at the time that I raised capital.
Like, yeah, we have this great business, but like we're completely pres precede stage. And, um, and so you have to be able to believe in and justify whatever that, um, pre-seed valuation is that you, um, uh, that you, you land on. Um, and then you have to find people that are gonna invest in you Yeah. As the person.
Um, pre-seed, um, is less about the business model and, and much more about the founder and the, the founder's ability to, um, to, to, to do it. Um, it's the highly, highly risky stage to invest in. Um, it's essentially an angel investment. Yeah. Uh, if you look at the returns on angel investments, like there very, very few angel investments end up working out for angel investors.
So you're gonna give away the most of your company at that point in time. Um, but I was able to raise from people who had mentored me in the franchise industry prior. Okay. So they had a preexisting relationship with me and they had done, um, they had done this before multiple times. Um, meaning that, uh, I knew that I was raising smart capital, smart money versus, um, versus there's a lot of dumb money out there.
I mean, you can go raise a search fund from some guy who, you know, is an accountant working at, you know, a, a big accounting firm and he's gonna put $50,000 towards a search fund. I don't think that's helpful. Um, building a franchisor is. Probably one of the hardest businesses you can build ever. Um, and you need people on your cap table, um, that can advise you above and beyond just writing checks.
I also would, uh, advise against raising friends and family. Um, if you are not raising from people who have invested money before, now you have another person who's like, when are you getting a return on my investment? Like, I raised very patient capital. I had not been asked once when they're getting their money back.
Yeah. Um, and, and I think that's important as well. It's just about knowing what your, what your needs are and what the needs are of the business, and then going out and selling that the same way you would sell your first customers. Right on. Yeah. That sounds like a, like so many layers of challenge and patience and like you, you have to be.
Predetermined on what the character traits are, what the, like what are you looking for? And not just going, gimme money. Um, which brings me the kind of, where will I wanna be respectful of your time, we need to lay on the plane somewhere, but what are some of your core beliefs that have helped you grow from an aspiring agent to, because you, you left what can be a glamorous industry or a slimy industry or both.
Yeah. And so there had to be some core beliefs behind that to get into sales, to be the top performer, to franchise world, to get a bigger picture and to start this, what are some of your really, your core beliefs that Yeah, I mean ultimately like I'm, I'm here and I'm put on this earth to help people. Um, I'm not like, I think in doing that, I'm gonna feel better inside.
Um, not, I think when in doing that and in, in serving others, like, I'm gonna feel better inside. And what ends up happening is, is life. Then, you know, uh, God, whatever you wanna call it, ends up taking care of of me. Mm-hmm. And so part of the reason why I, I struggled with some of the other industries I've been in is it, it was very much the everyone's out for themselves kind of mentality.
And there wasn't kind of really an opportunity to, to be a, a giver, um, and give back when I am able to provide an opportunity for someone who's been with the same company as an employee for 18 years, has a relatively modest 401k that they're supposed to retire on. Um, may at one point become the leader of that company, but maybe not gonna own like a large percentage of it.
When I can help someone like that, step out of that and, and give them the faith to walk through, um. What, what, what is a very scary thing to do, which is start a business. Um, my, I'm providing someone a life changing opportunity that can potentially, um, change their lives, their kids' lives. Mm-hmm. Uh, depending on how big they build their business, their kids', kids' lives, um, their grandkids lives like, and I can't think of a better way to do that than the franchise business model, which is why I love talking about franchising, which is why I go to all these conferences to talk about franchising.
I write content about franchising. I run a podcast about like, there's all these different things. And, and so how do we, how do we help other people get into business with significantly less risk than doing it on their own? And, um, and the franchise business model is not perfect, and the people in the franchise industry aren't perfect, but.
I believe that if the franchisee comes in with the right expectations and the right capital, and the franchisor goes in with the right expectations and the right capital, and they are partnered understanding that you can't have one without the other, um, then you can build a really successful business.
Like there'd be no way to have 328 units nationwide. If this was an independently owned and operated, um, power washing business where I was just opening locations and hiring managers, it just wouldn't happen. So really fundamentally, the only way you can really, truly build a nationwide power washing business, at least at the scale that we're achieving, is through franchising franchise and through finding great franchisees who are willing to go all in on the model and, and, and take the risk.
Um, and do this deal. And, uh, and so that's been really important for us, um, is, is just getting the right people on the right, on the right path. Um, and, and when someone's not right, getting them out and putting them in a better path, that's gonna make more sense for them and treating them with as much grace on the way in as we do on the way out.
And if there's franchisors that aren't willing to talk about when people exit the system, they're trying to hide something, everyone is gonna have people that don't work out in business. It's just there's absolutely zero way around it. Yeah, for sure. You got a hundred percent success rate. It's not, doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist. Exactly. So, um, what, since most of our audience are, they're solo operators or they're, you know, they own a single location, maybe two or three locations, they've got. 10, 20 employees, that's the size of operations you're dealing with. What's some advice that is applicable, whether you're a franchise or you're running your own thing that you would like to leave everybody with?
Yeah, so I think a great book for everyone to read is Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martel. Um, yeah. Uh, the, the buyback principle essentially states that like, you don't, you don't hire to grow your business, you hire to buy back your time because if you have more time, like you're the best person to know how to grow your business.
I have a professional, we've, we've recruit, brought in a professional CEO to run rolling subs. Like I'm not the CEO and I haven't been for almost five months now. Yeah. And, and, uh, I, I was originally the salesperson and I brought in a sales team and I fired myself from that role. And now I sit on the board as the chairman of the, of the, of the board.
And, um, I help set strategy and be. Liaison between my CEO and and and the board. And represent the board. And the only way I was able to do that is to realize that I am not the business and the business is not me. The more, uh, your goal is to build an, an asset as a business owner that doesn't need you to exist.
Yeah. Like that is fundamentally, if you wanna own, like truly own a business, then you would be able to own, like, I could leave tomorrow and be gone in Italy with my family for six weeks and come back and the business would run exactly as it is currently right now. And, and so, but the only way I'm able to do that is by continuously reinvesting and taking more and more risk by putting profits back into the business and hiring people to then get my time back.
And I think that if you run, let's just say you run a 2 million. Our power washing business and you're taking $800,000 out per year to like live your lifestyle. That may be what you wanna do, but I guarantee that that business, you're probably still the one doing all the commercial sales for that business.
Yeah. And because it's gonna cost you at least $400,000 to build a sales team that's gonna produce $2 million a year in business and who wants to take $400,000 of their 800,000 in profit and throw it on black and hire a sales team, that's gonna be terrifying. But yeah. But that is what it's gonna take to take that $2 million business to $5 million and then you're gonna reach a different risky point.
To get that business from 5 million to 15 million is gonna require all the profit from $5 million to invest back into building the team that can get it to 15 million. So like I think you just have to ask yourself what. What you want as a business owner. Yeah. And, and then work backwards from there. Like, I want a billion dollar company.
That's what I want. And I know exactly what the numbers are and I know how many trucks we need and I know how many we need to add per year to get there. And I think we can do it about 15 to 18 years, somewhere in that range. But like, okay, that's 'cause I've zoomed out and I've said, this is exactly what we need to do.
This is what needs to be true in order for us to do that. And, and then it's about, okay, now I've got my, my marching orders. And I think so many people start a business, they get wrapped up in the day-to-day of the business that they don't zoom out and like create a map and figure out what the, where they're going.
Yeah. Um, uh, uh. Entrepreneur, operat, uh, entrepreneurial operating system. EOS is really helpful for this. If you need a framework, uh, there's a book called Traction, which I've read like five or six times. I'd recommend to anyone who owns a business to implement that into their business. You can hire implementers or you can, um, or you can implement self implement.
I self implemented from the beginning. Um, not sure I would recommend that, but that's what we did. So really you want to just figure out what do I want and then how do I get there? And then it's just about doing the things every day, even when they're hard. Yeah, yeah, for sure. To get there. And if you don't wanna do it on your own and you have a $400,000 a year great owner operator power washing business, and you want help building it to $5 million or $10 million or $15 million and you need more systems, uh, my team would be happy to talk to you if that's the case.
We have not done any conversions simply because. It is my opinion that it is easier to re to, to, to, to train than, than Untrain. Mm-hmm. However, um, you know, we are, we are always looking for great operators, so that's a possibility. Um, if you're approved to join our system, um, I also put a bunch of stuff out online about this kind of stuff that you could follow me online and learn more about how to scale a business and I'm happy to be helpful there.
Or you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. My, my calendar is a, a lot less full than it has been in the past, so I'm happy to be as helpful as I possibly can. Okay, great. Yeah, there were, there were a handful of questions that I had wanted to ask, um, but we'll, we'll stop with this. Like, what's the best way for people to find you, reach you?
You got, you get LinkedIn, you're very active on social media. You've got a really good strategy going there. Thank you. Yeah, you can type in, uh, Aaron Harper. Rolling suds on. Um, I put a lot of stuff out on LinkedIn. My Instagram's, Aaron t. Um, just as it sounds, um, my Twitter is Aaron Harper, CEO. Um, I have a YouTube channel where I put stuff out.
You could go to the Rolling suds YouTube channel and see different videos that we put out there. Um, if you're interested in becoming a franchisee, you can go to rolling suds franchise.com and apply there. Um, and, um, and we can, we can go, we can, we, there's a bunch of different, different ways, albeit the huge convention, um, next year.
We've sponsored the last couple years. Um, okay. We will continue to sponsor. We enjoy, we enjoy going, we brought like 20, I think four people this past year. Yeah. Conference. Yeah. You had a good show this year. Conference. So, we'll, we'll have, we'll do that again this year. Probably have more than we did last year.
Um, so we, we really like. It is my goal to come into the industry in the power washing space and help elevate everyone. Um, it's not to, um, you know, take away from or anything, like, we want to help the industry as a whole get better and we bring in great operators and help them build great businesses, and we have more great power washing businesses nationwide.
I think it's helpful for everyone in the power washing space to kind of help set some standards and that's always been our goal and we'll continue to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. Well, thanks very much for being gracious with your time and joining me and spending this time with us and digging in this conversation.
I've really enjoyed it and hopefully there'll be a part two in a year or so and we can check on progress Sure. And ask a bunch of those other questions that we, uh, that I didn't get to yet. That'd be cool. Yeah, I'd be happy to. I'd be happy to. Yeah, that'd be great. Great. Well, thank you very much. If you wouldn't mind, stay on for just a second.
I have a question to ask you offline, uh, before you go. Alright. Yeah, of course. Alright. Okay, Aaron. Thanks again. Appreciate it so much. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out.
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called a Huge Insider.
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry, period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you. And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners.
And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's. Every August this year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. That's August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated trade show and convention for home service business builders.
We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the used Mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward. A million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers.
And we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all for these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes.
So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man.
It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.

In this episode of The Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with entrepreneur and franchise builder Matthew Efford, founder of Lighting Pros and multi-location operator of Mosquito Joe. Matthew opens up about scaling from a small, grinding startup to a multi-location enterprise by building strong leadership, clarifying roles, and designing a business that supports, rather than consumes his life.
After the heartbreaking loss of his son in 2020, Matthew completely restructured how he works. He shifted from 100+ hour weeks to a life centered around faith, family, and intentional leadership. During this conversation, he shares the systems and mindset that helped him build businesses that run without him, allowing his family to travel over 150 days per year while his teams continue to thrive.
Resources:
Lighting Pros Franchise
Notebook LM 
Mosquito Joe
Two Second Lean
Lighting Pros
The Huge Insider newsletter signup
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
Facebook Group – Huge Foundations
 
 
Transcript:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I'm Sid Graef out of Montana. I'm Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee. And I'm Sheila Smeltzer From North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
Yep. No fake gurus on this show, just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guests will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let's dive in.
Hey, my friends, it's Sid over here at the Huge Transformations podcast. Thanks for joining us this afternoon or today, whatever time it is when you're listening. We've got a great conversation today with Matthew Efford. Matthew Efford has, um, lighting Pros down in Georgia. They've got multiple locations, couple franchise locations.
He also runs a Mosquito Joe's operation. But more than that, he's a man of purpose and when you get to meet him and get to know him, you're gonna love how he has redirected his business and his life to support the things that he values in both, which for him, his faith, family, and business. A lot of us say that, but we usually put business first.
So get ready for a great conversation and a ton of learning and insight. From my friend and soon to be yours, Matthew Eer. Hey everybody, it's Sid Graff and this is The Huge Transformations podcast. And today our guest is Matthew Eer. Uh, Matthew has got Lighting Pros down in Georgia, is that right? That's correct, course.
'cause you're the mighty Bulldog fan. That's right. Go dogs. Yeah. As well as, uh, was it last year your company was a top in the top 100? I think you replaced number 10. Yeah. Top 10. Yeah. Top 10 of the fastest growing, uh, businesses founded or managed by new JL? Yeah. That's pretty cool. 'cause uh, university of Georgia is no slouch as far as alumni and alumni business owners.
Congrats. We, we've been very blessed. Um, it, it, it is foremost God's blessing on our business and then the amazing team that we have and also we've got some incredible customers that, that have supported us from early on, even when we didn't really know what we're doing. They're very gracious. We, we try to do a really good job s the way you wanna be treated.
It's one of our core values. So yeah, it, it is been a lot of fun. Yeah. That's wonderful. Um, so we, we'll, we'll start here, uh, without giving the like large introduction, background, 'cause we'll pick all that up, but Sure. When you and I, uh, talked before the huge convention and then not long after, you and your family had just been kind of, I call it the epic road trip you had had committed to spending more time with your family and making memories with your kids.
And how long were you guys on the road? Yeah, so, um, we were on the road, we were on the roof for a 45 day stint. Um, and then we, before that we basically, we were gone for two weeks, home for a week, gone for 45 days, home for two weeks, gone for three weeks, home for a week. Going for a week. We we're just kind of on and off the road a bunch.
And, um, we will have traveled 120 something days, something like that, 150 days this year by the end of the year. Okay. So, and I'm gonna loop this together. So you have lighting pros, you do holiday lighting, you do landscape lighting. You do permanent lighting. So my assumption was this, oh, Matthew's got, you've got your poop in a group and you're, you've, you know, you're able to manage your time, but it's, you know, as the holiday lighting business, like you've got some slow time.
And then, but like now when we're recording this is, is, uh, we're almost Halloween. So all holiday, like people are getting busy. I assume that would be true for you as well. Probably is. But you said you guys, you and your family go back on the road tomorrow, so you got more time gone. It, it, it is. We've got a great team.
And, and, and we've just, we've built the business as you and I shared, you know, when I spoke at, at Huge, which is amazing opportunity. Part of this story starts for me back when my son Noah passed away in 2020. And it was really, how did I design my business in such a way that I don't work a hundred hours a week?
'cause I was at that time, yeah. And it was a, a needed, I have to not work a hundred hours in their business. And so we go sense where we work a bunch obviously, and then we go sense where, um, our team is just running on all donors and, and it is fantastic and it's more of how can I support them. So my time now is spent more around how do I cultivate leadership within my organization as well as with our franchise locations.
How do I help them develop? And so a lot of that can be done remotely. So I know that's not normal for people, right? That's not a normal thing that they can do. They can pick up and leave for 45 days for, for even four days. Four days feels like a lot. Yeah. But the big thing for me that I kind of challenge with in my presentation that I've been challenging people is if you cannot step away from your business and it operate without you, you have a job, not a business.
And so that's what I've been teaching our franchise owners. That's what I've been teaching our, our team is, and, and myself is uh, we, we have to structure this in such a way that we can step away for a period of time, whether it's just a day that there was a time in our business where I felt like I cannot even take my wife on a date because I've gotta be available to the business because I have so much that I have to catch up on.
And what really taught me is I have to learn how to delegate better. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's a very common theme in our industry is just, you know, they, the guy, the owner operator, started everything, did everything, does everything. Doesn't know how to not do everything and how to structure it. So that's a big deal.
Can, will you do this? Will you paint a picture of where your business is now? I know you've got multiple locations. Are they franchises? Are they company owned? Yeah, it's, it's a great question. So we, I, I own three businesses, uh, mosquito Joe Outdoor Pest Control Company, lighting Pros. We do outdoor lighting and Lighting Pros franchise, where we support others in the outdoor lighting space.
And so my organization, we are, we have five locations for Lighting Pros currently. Um, that is our corporate office and then franchise locations. And then we are in the launch phase of a couple other locations. And so, um, that by. This time in, in three months? We'll, we'll, we'll push us up over six to seven locations.
Okay. Okay, cool. And, um, with that, with your, like with franchise locations like this strict franchise model, somebody buys into it, they run it according to the systems you have, but you give them support. That's correct, yeah. Okay. So, so we're, we're giving them the branding support, right? You're buying a business in a box.
When you, well, you should, when you're looking at a franchise system, you should be buying a defined ROI. And so the system that you should be looking at, you should be looking at a completely kind of aired out system. Doesn't mean it's not gonna adapt, it doesn't mean it's not gonna change. It should as it grows and matures and becomes better.
But they should have a system for hiring. They should have a system for invoicing. They should have a system for marketing. They should have a system for inventory. They should have vendors in place. It should have those relationships that you're able to buy into somebody's work that they've done for years, that you get to now leverage that and grow faster.
So what we tell our franchisees is within our ecosystem, you can go further faster that you can do this on the own. You you, there's no rocket science here. But what we can help you with is the he who walks with WISE becomes wise companion bull, suffer harm, right? We're gonna surround you with some wise people, ourselves included, that have made a lot of mistakes along the way, and you get to not make some of those mistakes because now we're gonna support you.
And then we're gonna layer on top of that some national brand deals that we've got, some, some national accounts that we have, some national vendors, that we have. Leveraging the overall ecosystem that you're able to get materials at a rate that you can't get anywhere else. You're able to get some training at a rate that you can't get anywhere else.
You're able to get access to some customers that you can't get anywhere else because they're working with us. Right, right on. So take me back to the beginning when you started in, in service business. Did you start with Mosquito Pros? Yeah. So, so Mosquito Joe was our, our first Mosquito Joe entrance into the business world.
Um, I take it back, years and years and years ago, my brother and I had a landscaping business. We were in high school. Yeah, we had some friends from school working with us. We were working every day after school on the weekends. We made a lot more money than we should have as teenagers. We were, we were really blessed.
It's a lot of fun to do. Work really hard. Went school UJ again, go dogs, graduated, got into a pharmacy management company in their sales department and kind of helped that business start. Sales department helped grow. They had incredible operations. It was just me telling the story and then really felt called in the 2016 timeframe to start my own business.
So my wife and I prayed about that for about 12 months and we found Mosquito Joe. At the time, the biggest issue Mosquito Joe had was what do you do with your staff in the off season? So what we say within our franchise model, our two target demographics, our two avatars are Mitch and Joe Joe's a seasonal business owner that doesn't have anything to do in the winter.
His, his revenue draws up. So Holiday lights is a, a very good solution for that. And you're not chucking a truck because Chucking a truck is, there are a dozen, they're everywhere. They're here one day and they're gone the next. Mm-hmm. But it is a, it is a tried and true brand that you get to partner with, learn, leverage the, the learning and knowledge and scale from there.
So we started at the same time, mosquito Joe and Lighting Pros with that intention of, we want, I want to be able to offer our staff year round employment. Okay. Good. And with that, I mean, you're, you're down, you're in the south, but is that filled the gap? Did it. You stay fairly steady year round. Yeah.
You're able to keep your, so we have, we have one week in December, typically that we're slow. Mm-hmm. And one week in February that we're slow. Then we do team building stuff around the office. We do maintenance. Um, and, and from that we operate 52 weeks a year. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. That's, so it bridge the gap and then what we, what we learned in the lighting space is just what we're finding in the outdoor pest control space, which most people that are listening to us know this to be true.
The home services space, the level of customer service, unfortunately, is so low. Mm-hmm. The bar has been set so low that when we would do simple things like show up when we said we're gonna show up or send the quote when we said we're gonna send the quote or, or, or, or better yet, answer the phone. Yeah. I mean, it is just like.
We were growing at rates, so it was like, how can we be doing this? What, what is, what is so special about what we're doing? Yeah. Not that much. Um, but we found that across the outdoor lighting space as well. So the three key areas that, that we service is we do temporary holiday lights. That's our bread and butter.
That's our tried and true. We all of our locations do that. We also do permanent holiday lights and landscape lighting. Okay. And those two, those two features have really exponentially helped us grow because strategically what's happened within our business is as, as lighting for us to, speaking for us as lighting post is far outpace our mosquito, Joe.
The year round mid-level managers positions were not comparable within the two. So we didn't have as many a big of a need within our mosquito Joe, our structures so much different there. So we had to find a way to keep our middle managers, our crew leaders on board instead of having to retrain them every year because they're going to find other employment somewhere else.
Yeah, completely understand. Yeah. And what we found was we, we had to actually bring, kind of in-house, not set out in work. Let's bring in-house all our permit lighting and let's keep crews that do that all year long. Obviously it makes us, we bring in more revenue, it's more profitable. But now, this is the second season that we've done this and, and our crystals lights is exploding.
And, and we're sitting here looking like, I mean, we, we have more bandwidth now than we ever have and we're this far into the season. And so my wife and I were talking last night like, Hey, what would it look like if we went and lost another location? It's like, this is crazy that we're this far down the road into the season.
We're not pulling our hair out. I'm not losing sleep at night. Little changes like that have helped us on the structure along the way. It is been great. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of, that's crazy. So you've been, you've started the business about nine years ago? 20 16, 20 17. Alright, cool. Um, and I, and I apologize.
I was laughing so hard a minute ago because you said we did crazy things like show up and it sounds ridiculous that that can be a competitive advantage be because you expect, like what would a business do if you called them for business and like, Hey, I wanna give you money to do this thing. You go, cool, I'll be there.
Why is that so hard? Or why does so many businesses not show up? No, not just the phone de you know, take two weeks to get a quote. When we have our team meetings, one of the things that, a part of our time, specifically with our franchise owners, but even our leadership team, I will very intentionally take time to take off my owner hat.
And put on my consumer head mm-hmm. And say, let's evaluate this from our consumer standpoint. We are all consumers. What are the pain points that make it really frustrating? When is the last time you called somebody to come do work at your house and they did not show up? It is, it is infuriating. Yeah. I took time off of work.
You told me you were gonna be here now I want to give you money. Yeah. And you did not show up to my house. What are you doing? Or you showed up to my house and you never sent me a quote. Mm-hmm. Why would I as a consumer ever have to follow up with you for a quote? I should not ever have to say, where is that quote?
You should be beating down my door. I called you, I legally gave you my information. I told you, sit, I want to spend money with you now. Let me spend money with you. Like, take my money. Yeah. Don't make me, don't, don't make me, don't make me. Don't make it work. Ah, yeah. It, it makes me a little crazy. We had an experience, um, earlier this season.
We do, you know, window cleaning, we've got a commercial side and a residential side. Commercial side runs a little different. And we, we had, we got called for a quote at the university here in town and they called us on Monday, Tuesday we were there Wednesday. They had a quote in hand, but we said, we're ready to go.
We can complete this in August, according to your timeline. And they said, that's cool. We have to get three quotes and we're waiting for two others. And I said, fine. We followed up, you know, respectfully, like every three days and two weeks later they got the second quote and six weeks later they could not approve a quote until they got three in hand.
It took the other company six weeks. Crazy thing is they have a, a policy where basically they have to take the lowest quote 'cause they're using state funds. Um. The company that was the slowest, was the lowest price, got the bid. But I became friends with the guy and I'm like, how does that make you feel?
Like these people can't even return your phone call or get you a quote for six weeks. You think they're gonna be able to deliver the service? What kind of quality service? Yeah, yeah. Well, whether there's an issue, right, but when, because issues happen. Yeah. So as a consumer, I have started valuing and evaluating businesses based on the way they solve their issues.
Yeah. So not is there never a problem, because that's not realistic, right? But when there's a problem, what do they do to overcome that? What do they do to make it right? Are they quick to blame me or are they quick to say, you know what, not an issue. Let me fix it. I'll be there today, I'll be there tomorrow, whatever it is.
And normally just acknowledging the fact that it is a problem makes me super happy. Yeah. So you're big on core values and you've, you've talked about 'em at the convention. You mentioned one here a second ago. Um, what is, what is your core value or how do you guys approach it when there's a problem with Mosquito Joes or with lighting Pros, customer says, Hey, this is whatever.
Sure. So the great question. So we, when we say around our office, first or last, so I, I'm a big proponent. I'm a highly aggressive person. I like to win. I'm very driven by winning. And so the, our first is feedback, integrity, respect, shared growth and teamwork. And so within our company culture, we talk about that every month when our large team meets.
Mm-hmm. And all of our leadership team pulls out where each employee has lived out a core value that lasts 30 days. And we acknowledge that in that meeting. And we say, Hey, jt, here's you, here's our core value. Here's how you lived it out. Great job, jt. And it's amazing when we started that a couple years ago, or actually three years ago now.
The responses that we get to that people are starting to look for that amongst each other. Yeah. But for us, when you call me, when you've got a lighting, a project that you did with us and you're having issues, the first thing we'll say is, Sid, I appreciate you taking the time to give me that feedback.
Actually, one of our core values is feedback. Give and receive accountability. I said, I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. Another core value we have is shared growth. Be better today than were yesterday. So we, our team is going to take this, we're gonna talk about it, and we're gonna get better, and we're gonna take ownership over what we did.
We're gonna make it right for you. That conversation 90, I know all statistics are made right. But 95% or more of the time when I have a customer that calls me this angry, when I give them that pitch in mm-hmm. In a genuine sense, completely diffuses the problem. Yeah. Completely. And then we still go out and fix it, right?
It's not that we're just not gonna fix it. If we did something wrong, we wanna fix it. But having that level of conversation with our team as well as with our customers helps mitigate a lot of issues for us. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, let, let me ask you this, 'cause you've had some pretty rapid growth in the, in the last five years for sure.
What are, what are some of the bottlenecks and plateaus that you see, well, that you saw in your business and that are fairly common too, the service industry, and if you wanna put, you know, sort of general dollar benchmarks on it for revenue, like in half a million you run into this and a million run into that, that's fine.
Or just in general, like what were some of the bottlenecks and plateaus you guys experienced as your growth? Yeah, I mean, we were, we were approaching 200,000 in, in holiday lights and it was me and my brother and like one guy working with us. And that was, we were working a hundred to 120 hours a week, and it was just like, this is, we're ain't gonna be able to survive.
Um, and so we started building a team from there. The, the biggest jump from us was from 500,000 to a million. And really what that pushed us to do was to really develop our team around what does our org chart look like, which we don't really spend a lot of time with, with all of our staff talking about, here's your org chart, here's your report to, but we do teach them that.
Um, but it was more around, we have to define out what the role is and whose responsibility certain actions are, which sounds simple, but it was amazing because we were growing so fast, we would hire somebody and be like, I, I just need you to take care of that. And then we would add, it would be a scope creep, right?
But then we kinda look at their job descriptions. It's like you're doing 55 different things and I just really need you to do five. Yeah. And so I'm gonna cut off all the other ways. I'm either gonna hire that out or I'm just gonna cut it out and then we're going to consistently keep you in this lane.
And so big building block, kind of what I said a few years ago, we started implementing this idea of keeping middle managers around in a, in a more non-seasonal role, a permanent role that they established core into our, our team and we keep them around. That has been a dramatic leap for us to be able to, when we start the holiday like season, because that is our busiest season.
Yeah. We do operate all year, but that is definitely our busiest season that we have the core infrastructure in place. We've been doing this long enough now. We've got guys that return to us every season. And so one of the things that we found, just kind of a side note, I used to want to pitch the job as a, if you do a good job, you can have year round employment.
'cause we have both businesses and we can operate all year. And you can be employed all year if you want to. Yeah. Part of that became a disservice. And really what we found was there, there are people that want to work a seasonal job and they want it to be seasonal. Mm-hmm. And they're okay with that. And then if they have leadership aspirations, if they have career aspirations, if they want to get in and they actually do love our team, then we give them opportunities to approach us in that way.
And we do approach some of them in that way. But for the most part, our seasonal workers, they, they wanna work seasonally. They're tree climbers, they're roofers, they're, you know, some of the. We've got some guys that are, are river ramp guys and they love it. Yeah. And that's great. And that's their passion.
And this is what they do to put food on the table. Right. So that's their passion. So they're not looking for full-time employment. They wanna be able to go in spring and go back and do that. And we say, God bless you. Good luck. We'll see you in the fall. Yeah. And they come back every year because we've kind of created this culture of, hey, this is, this is, let's kind of help clarify what this means.
Um, man, as a leader, I really have struggled over the years of not always addressing things when I first see them. Right. That I, I just assume that it's gonna go away or I just assume that that person's going to know what I expect of them. That really, within myself, I have learned I have to do a better job and I'm, I'm getting, continuing to get better of when I see something, address it right away.
And so this is one of those things that we just kind of saw like. We have to address this, but we clearly define out this is the role, this is the expectation, this is the timeframe. If this works for you, then great. And if not, then this is not the right role for you. Yeah, yeah. You know that something interesting about that with seasonal businesses, yours, uh, before you get, you know, the two integrated or even still with lighting pros, um, and us here, you know, in, in Montana and, and winters, it gets cold and we are not cleaning windows in the wintertime.
And we used to that, I used to consider that a deficit or a problem. And, but then we started, we just shifted the perspective and started hiring people based on like, it's a benefit that you get off three months in the winter. What are you gonna do with your time off? And we, we started attracting and hiring people that are avid snowboarders or skiers.
Oh yeah. Cool. Yeah. And that's the perfect guys, like the guy that just wants to shred all winter and then work the rest of the year, but have that time off and have their job. I'm like, oh hell, I didn't realize that was a benefit. I thought it was a death penalty. Great point. Yeah, we got several guys that travel, um, that, that, that absolutely love it.
And, and that's what they want to do. And so what it's done for Arm Mosquito Joe's has helped us keep better people there as well. Right. We, we've been able to offer that career path guy that he's not quite ready for a leadership role within one of the two organizations, but he's, he's a solid or she's a solid individual that wants to be part of the team that wants to work all year long that wants a hi higher end paying kind of daily labor job.
And so we're able to offer that and then teach them those skills to help equip them and lead them and develop them and hopefully train them up into a, a more career oriented role. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I'm gonna ask you this and, and I wouldn't normally bring it up, but you've, you brought up several times.
You, you guys had a family tragedy. You lost your son, Noah, in 2020. And you said prior to that you were, you were the guy working a hundred, 120 hours a week and just all work and nothing else. And after that you use that as a catalyst and to honor your son, uh, you said, I'm gonna redesign this thing and have a life that is family first.
And like your podcast, we'll get to pillars of, uh, purpose a little bit later, but, faith, family, and business in, in that order, um, when, how did you define your redesign? I, okay, I'm struggling with the question because That's okay. Most of the time guys get busy with work and they just go, it's just work and this is the way it is.
And you can't really change it. 'cause that's how it is. And more's coming at me and so I have to do more rather than deliberately sitting down, I go, how do I want this to be? Starting with the first, I, I really want you to run through that with me. When, when I sat in, I mean, there's many times along the way he said it, it was when I sat in the hospital room with my son and, and not to get overly emotional and dramatic, but as he was dying, as I was holding him, it was, it was a very clear shift within me of time is so precious.
It, it is so precious. And when I looked across my life, it was, what am I, what am I chasing? So, mm-hmm. I had said, faith comes first. I had said family comes first, but when I actually looked at my schedule, it was any sales meeting, any co, anything that I can go to day or night that helps propel the business forward.
If it's a networking event, if it's a Saturday meeting. If it's Sunday after church, like I, I'm probably going to go to that because I know I can make connections there and I know I, I can leverage that. And what happened was it, it shifted a mentality in me to say, I need to block my time better and I need to be fully present at home and fully present at work and, and outside my relationship with Jesus Christ.
The best decision I ever made was marrying my wife. She's unbelievable and, and she's super supportive. And there are seasons, even after Noah passed away that I've worked 80 hours in a week. Of course that has happened. Every business owner knows that everything falls apart, it hits the fan and you get called, it's okay, we gotta do something.
So we, I've still had those moments, but it has been a more intentional grind for me to say, what do I want my business to do? Yeah. Is it to fund give me a lot of money that I can't use because I'm working so much? Hmm. Or is it to give me time? What is most important for me? So the, the challenge that my family took was to save time value.
We value time more than money. So a few million dollar business is good for us and the rate at which we're growing rather than going to a $30 million business in the next two years, that time commitment is not worth it for our family right now. It's just not that time. Commitment may change and that's completely fine.
So what my wife and I do is every year on our anniversary we go away. Just she and I and we started this, our, our first, or I mean our honeymoon. We literally said like, what did the last year look like? Let's look back in a year and let's look forward a year. And we have some of those conversations as a couple to say what, what do we want to do?
And um. There, there have been years that my wife has told me nothing new. Please do nothing new. And I said, okay. Because I said I, I love new, and I, I love, you know, like we're, we're really looking at launching some additional corporate locations as a way to scale our franchise model that we feel like we can do this really well.
Not that other people can't, but it may be a prideful thing, but we've proven that we can do this well. And so would it, would it be more advantageous long term for our franchisees if we go and launch some cities mm-hmm. And help the city scale and then bring in another owner to, to buy it from us and run it under the franchise model?
So, yeah. You know, that's something that, that we have talked about, but we've looked at our time as a family. We said, okay, what does that time frame look like? We homeschool, we're mobile. So what, what would it look like if we brought our boys along with this journey along with us instead of it being so removed and separated out?
Um, that's kind of, that's, that's been a big shift for us. And, um, then it's just, I mean, everybody will say this, and it sounds cliche, it is, you gotta hire better people. You gotta pay them as much as you physically can afford, and then probably pay them more than you think you can afford and just try to hire really good people and then allow them to do the job that you paid them to do.
Yeah. So that's a big thing for me. I used to be a super micromanager and I've, I've, the pendulum has swung too far the other way, right? Where I've, I've, I've dumped, I've not delegated. And so the pendulum has come back a little more for me in the middle of, I, I'm going to empower you as a leader. We're gonna have checkins, I'm gonna spot check some things because I, I wanna hold you accountable just like you should hold me accountable.
It's our number one core value feedback. Give and receive accountability. So we're gonna have some difficult conversations, but at the end of the day, I hired you to do this role. I expect you to do it. Yeah. So talk about your, your leadership development, um, plan or philosophies within your businesses.
Yeah, that's a great question. So part of our monthly meeting we do is a personal development. And so that is, we, we watch TED Talks, we, we bring in speakers. I, I speak a lot. I like to speak. It's like I spoke to huge. I, I avid reader. I'm normally bringing up, Hey, I just read this book. Here's a synopsis of it.
If you want our bayou copy of it, we can talk about it. So we started doing that, um, three or four years ago now. And really the shift for me happened where, um, this was three years ago, we had a key staff member that helped us in the transition, um, throughout Noah's journey. That came to me and said, you know, I, I feel called to do something else.
And, and she left. And it was very difficult for our team. It was, she was a key person. Yeah. And she went into a completely different career. We're still good friends with her family. She's thriving in the career that she chose. But it was a big shift for me, and really it taught me to say, I'm gonna be more open-handed with our business.
And so every employee, when they come into our our business, I tell them, you're going to work for us for a season. What I mean by that is you will have an end date with us. Either you will retire, you will pass away, or you will quit. You're not, this is not a forever thing. But my job as the leader is to elongate that season as long as we can make it, that it's mutually beneficial for both you and me.
And so part of what I do is I want you to be better for working here. I want it to be something that when you look at your resume. And you're looking for that next job, that, that career change, whatever that is, that you look fondly on your time here, because you can say, these are three things I learned there, that I was developed, I had opportunities to lead, I had opportunities to speak, I had opportunities to, to do sales, I had opportunities to be on the phone.
I had opportunities to run a crew, even when I wasn't really ready for that, um, I had opportunities for that. Yeah. That's really been our, our mentality. Okay. How do you balance it with employees with, because I, I don't know how many employees do you have roughly right now? Yeah. So we're, when we're fully staffed, we're at 25, 27.
Okay. And so with, you know, with 20, 25, 30 employees, you've got some that personally, that they want to grow, they wanna grow, they wanna learn to be leaders, they wanna develop. And you have some that just want a paycheck. Like how do you balance that within the team because. There's one of you and you've got a pretty clear and singular message, but what about the guys?
They don't really want to grow, but they're great workers. They just wanna jump. Yeah, that's a great point. Um, we are pretty unapologetic in growth. So shared growth be better today or yesterday. It's one of our core values. We do preach that all the time. Mm-hmm. And so I will consistently go through books with team members that are wanting to grow and they're, they're saying, they're coming to me saying, Hey, Matthew.
Like I, I, I wanna grow as a leader. I'm in my early twenties. Like I, I want to become a better leader. So, okay, here's a John Maxwell book. We're gonna read this together and we're gonna talk about it. And we're, we're gonna, you know, grab coffee, we're gonna grab lunch, we're gonna grab breakfast, we're gonna do it remotely.
I'm gonna call you, you're gonna have to show up in that moment. Um, the other folks in that, we pay people to come to those meetings, that development day. And so when I'm paying you there, I expect you to be there and be present. Outside of that, I can't force anything upon you. But if you want the extracurricular, if you want the above and beyond, I'm happy to engage with you that way.
But we chose during that time actually pay our staff to come that it, it is not a like unpaid day. Know it is a full paid day. Come enjoy. We, we, we do company update, we do, um, professional development, personal development, culture celebration, and then we, we eat and have fun. So Is that a monthly thing or, or, yeah, it's once a month.
That's your monthly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's cool. That's really cool. I know, you know. Okay. So this is interesting because I struggled with it. A lot of people struggle with, like, even with team meetings, like I can't afford to do team meetings, paying everybody to sit different an hour. Yeah. Yeah. We're bringing no revenue in and I'm paying everyone the same normal daily rate.
Yeah. I've just lost a bunch of money and I'm gonna provide lunch and I'm gonna provide a speed. It's like, what are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. So talk about the ROI of that. Yeah. I think for us it is, it gets into the, all the metrics, right? Behind any service based business. You want your reviews to go up, you want your repeat customers to go up, you want your referral rate to go up.
The, the reoccurring revenues is dominant in this market for especially your bottom line profitability. Yeah. For us, we've seen all of those things trend in the right direction. Um, without getting specifics, it, it is, every, every needle of the KPIs that we look at over the last three years have gone in the direction that we wanted to there, and we believe a big part of that's the culture that we create, that the people that we bring in, that we've had some team members leave our organization for what they felt like was a better opportunity, and then circle back kind of boomerang back and be like, oh, it's not a better opportunity.
And it's because we, we care about our culture a lot. Yeah, we don't do it perfectly, but we, we really care about that. Our customers are feeling that. And so anytime you can get a referral is excellent. We celebrate those. We try to, um, within our team, we talk about those, those, um, monthly meetings. And so that's a big deal of somebody's giving you a sample approval, Hey, I trust you.
I believe in the work that you're doing. And so those numbers are, are, are really up for us in both businesses. Yeah. Yeah. It is been my experience and what you're talking about, it's like whenever you have a deliberately planned and executed team meeting. I mean, it's got a purpose. It's not just, Hey, we're having a meeting to, to tell you what you already know, but you're driving culture.
You're reinforcing things like how do you ask for a review? How do you ask for referral? And doing the chief repeating officer work like that builds a better, more reliable team. Your people make more money. Your customers are happier and like, uh, are you familiar with the book, the Two Second Lean? No, but I'll add to my list right now.
It's a really, uh, it's, it's a short book. It's interesting, but it's, and it's primarily for manufacturing and deals with ergonomics. But this guy, uh, is very competitive. You'll like him, I forget the author's name. Two second Lean, and he said, he said a lot of companies are afraid to have meetings every week.
We have a 15 meeting minute meeting every single day. And he says, I'll run circles around you. Because that moment of unification and making sure everyone's on the same page and you're marching together, it makes you so much more effective for the rest of the time. You do the same weekly or monthly.
It's like you just perform better when you're aligned, but you don't get aligned when you're out in the field working all the time. Yeah. So we, we do this every year. We, we do this, especially when we hire new staff. Um, one of the analogies, and I'm sure we get old eventually, um, that, that we bring everybody in and I ask them one question.
They give them a piece of paper and a pen. Asked them one question. I say, how do you make toast? And it started out we had 10 people in the room and room. Last time we did, we had 20, I think 27 people in the room, 25 people in the room. And every single one of them gave a different answer. Oh, wow. Even the, even the people that have done this test before, every single one of them gave a different answer.
And so what I did was I took all of them. We, we kind of quickly read through 'em and we laughed, and it was, some of 'em were silly, but I said, okay, this is simple. Making toast is extremely simple, but every single one of us set a different process. Yeah. So there's no uniformity there. So what we want to do is we want to create a, this is how we make toast as an organization.
And so we've kind of, we call the roles of engage. We've created that for the roles to say, this is the way that we engage with the work that we're doing. This is important. This is the reason that we do it this way. And then one thing that we do that has been super helpful for us is I used to hate reviews.
I, I just, just sped them. I hated 'em when I was an employee. I hated providing them. But our employees need that feedback. They, they need to know how they're doing, celebrate them, challenge them to continue to grow. We started at 90 days for folks when they first come on board with us. 30 days is too quick.
90, sometimes it would be a little too long. 16 to 90 days. We're touching base with, with a key employee that we've hired to say, Hey, we ask them, got a handful of questions, but, but effectively, what are you seeing? What do you like? What can be approved upon? What did you have to learn the hard way? Mm-hmm.
And we asked all of our, our employees that. Yeah. And it's amazing. S it is absolutely amazing what comes out of some of those conversations. That's where it was for me. It was, I felt like I was better at describing things, but I was more assuming that you would just understand that. So I was assuming that you would know technician, that we expect you to ask for referrals.
We expect you to ask for a review. If you hear somebody talking about how they love the service, hand them the door tag that has the QR code on the bottom and circle it and say, will you give us a review? It's an easy process to do as a business owner. I was doing that when I was in the field, but our team members are not doing that.
And so little things like that, let's make it abundantly clear. Let's, let's try to clarify the process for everybody involved to help me help you. The more successful that you are in the field, the more successful the business is. A rising tide rises all ships. It impacts your take home income. It impacts your bonus.
It impacts all of those things. Let's do this together. Yeah. Oh yeah. Do you find yourself, um, when you, you know, naturally when you instruct your team, you're like, let's use getting reviews as an example. You say, okay, we gotta ask for reviews. This is how you ask for reviews. This is why we ask for reviews.
This is how it helps you, how it helps us, how it helps the customer do that. And you teach 'em once and then. Don't say anything else about it. Are you naturally like that? Like I already told you. Why aren't you doing it? Or you just like Yeah. Naturally, yes. Naturally, yes. I, I, I, I'm a, I should tell you this once and you should know it, and we should be able to move on because that's my personality.
Now, my wife would, would beg to differ. Um, that, that she, she would say no on that. But for the most part in my life, I get it. Once I got it, I'm good to go. But our team is not that way. Mm-hmm. And so we, it is the same thing you learn in school, right? People are visual learners for audio, audio learners.
They're written learners. They have to read it. So we try to give all that in different formats. So one of the things that we've started doing is making videos of like, Hey, here, here's a video of how you ask a customer for a referral or you ask them for a review. Watch this little video, right? We, on our podcast we had, um.
Morgan Knox, who was, who was at Huge, yeah. As, as a guest. And we, we talked about notebook lm, unbelievable platform to be able to integrate in with your team and do teaching and education within your core system. I don't wanna get into that episode, I don't wanna get into that, that's way out the field.
But there's incredible resources that we can do to reiterate that. And so part of our weekly check-ins with our leadership team, when they're out in the field with our teams, part of our monthly check-ins with our whole team is we go through our toast process. Mm-hmm. And we highlight those. We, we have an annual calendar that we look at.
And based on the time of year, we highlight different things. So we're due, we're due a competition within our team for referrals. We're couple that with our marketing campaign for that time period, right? Yeah. We're gonna double up on referral bonuses for our team members as well as our customers. We're really gonna push that for the next 30 days.
And we're gonna do, you know, somebody's gonna get a trophy and they're gonna get a hundred dollars in cash. We're, we're gonna, we're gonna push those things. The more planned out we've been and not fly by the seat of your pants, the better the results that we get. Yeah, for sure. And, um, so it, I, I learned this from Mike Dalkey, um, who I'm met at the huge convention nine years ago, but he talks about having a position in your company.
It's not really a position, but he said somebody has to be the chief repeating officer. Yeah. You just have to say it over and over. It's like, we implemented new core values four years ago, and guess what? We didn't say it once and then not mentioned again, expect everybody to get it. You're like, we, we taught it.
Then the next meeting, you know, every our, our company, we do a, you know, every Monday we have a team meeting, and it's usually about 40 minutes. And so for the entire year, even though our core values have not changed since last year, the first, when we started back, we went over 'em, we taught 'em, we used examples.
We have them give us examples. But every Monday we're like, we're focusing on this one this week, and everybody's gonna talk about it, talk about it. And I get exhaust. I'm like, really? Are we talking about this again? Like, when did we get, but it, that's what it takes. It's like you want something done, you gotta repeat the hell out of it until everybody becomes, until it becomes muscle memory.
And then by that time you have new employees and they have to hear it a hundred times too. So you're just gonna keep doing it. And if your organization's growing and you should be bringing new team, right? You should be adding new roles. You should be growing and developing. And your people, every business owner hears this gets a little pit in their stomach when I say this, but your people should be leaving eventually.
They should be, they should be going up, starting their own business. They should be trying other careers. They, they should be growing and developing, right? Mm-hmm. I want our team to be doing that. When I, when I look at, um, organizations that have had employees that have been with them since the very beginning, I always not to judge that owner, but always question is that person in the right role, because I know I'm not the same leader that I was when I first started.
Mm-hmm. And I know some of the people that we have initially worked with us that were key early years and key middle years and key recent years, their skillsets not always aligned with what is needed at the next level. Yeah. And so as we continue to mature and grow, we gotta evaluate and we gotta have hard conversations.
Say, Hey, maybe this isn't right for you anymore. This isn't the right role. It doesn't mean you can't be here. We're gonna find a different role for you. We're gonna continue to grow and develop. So to reiterate core values, of course you should be doing that, right? Of course we should. We, we teach our, our boys with a classical education model, and it's all about memorization.
It's about repeating. It's about this idea of ingraining this into our subconscious effectively, so that way it changes the way that we act. It changes the way we engage with information. Yeah. Oh, for sure. So it, it's interesting too, and I'm sure you've experienced it just based on what you said, that um, sometimes your organization outgrows people who were, were a good fit, but now they're not because the company has grown.
Sometimes your people outgrow you. Um, I forget who I heard Sam, but they, they were talking about, they had someone on their team that was just a superstar, and they realized, they said, if my vision isn't big enough to leave space for their vision within my company, they are leaving. Yeah. And so they like expanded wildly because they wanted to keep this one person, but it opened up a whole new vista of their business.
And, but people gotta grow and if they're not, they're, they the right people. That totally agree. One, 1000%. Yeah. Well, let's, let's shift slightly and, and this is kinda where we'll wrap things up, uh Sure. For the day you've got a podcast, it's called Pillars of Purpose podcast, and it's all about faith, family, and business.
When did you start that and what is the, like, what is the message that you're trying to make sure to bring to the marketplace and who needs to hear this podcast? Yeah. Uh, I appreciate that a lot. So I started recording episodes middle of last year, so we're, we're 18 months into it almost. Um, we've got 110 episodes that are, that are published.
And really the, the emphasis was, um, I started, part of my growth as a leader was I need to surround myself with, with wise counsel. And so I started a board of advisors and I wrote out an entire board of advisors plan. It was, here's the requirements, here's men that I admired my life outside looking in.
Right? No one's perfect, but. Outside looking in, here's, they've gotten to points in their career that I admire. Mm-hmm. And so I wanna surround myself with them. I want to have some quarterly kind of business meetings, and I wanna talk about three key areas of my life, my faith, my family, and my business.
And, and I want to define out what is it, what's a scorecard that I can give myself in those areas to evaluate the, the, the, I, I heard a preacher say it a long time ago. Like, we need guardrails in our life. Mm-hmm. And the guardrails in our life are there for a reason. They're to keep us from diving off the, the cliff.
Yeah. And, and to our demise. And so this is kind of like a guardrail in my life to say, these are the things that I want to do. These are the directions I want to go. These are the conversations I want to have. And these are the conversations. I don't wanna have these, these are the things I want to be true about my life.
And I don't wanna be true about my life. And so we met together in one of the first meetings that I had with that group. Was around the idea. First or second meeting was, Hey, I, I've, I've been praying about starting podcasts. There's a million podcasts out there, right? I, I don't feel like I need another voice.
Um, but it was, how can I take conversations that we're having around this table? How can I bring other people into the fold and then share those publicly? Mm-hmm. And what happened was, it is the most enjoyable thing that I do right now. I love what we do. I love the work that we do, but the podcast is the most enjoyable thing that we can do because I just get to be inquisitive.
Yeah. I'm a naturally inquisitive person. My boys come by naturally. And it's can be so frustrating at times. And my wife is extremely patient with all of us, but I'm just a naturally inquisitive person. And so the, the thing for me is I'm very passionate about, about living a life of purpose that, again. I, I've sat and held my son's casket, right?
This life is very short and this life is not guaranteed. And so with the time that I have here, I want to live a life of purpose in these three areas, my faith, my family, and my business. Mm-hmm. And so what I do is I interview people all around the world around one of those three topics. And there there's a lot of faith conversation in there.
So if you're not interested in faith, you may not like it. Uh, but, but it is, I mean, we've had a hundred million dollar businesses, business owners that come on and they just share like incredible nuggets. And I'm like, where did that come from? Yeah. But, but it's really, it's, it is how, look at the stage that I'm in with my faith, my family or my business.
And let me ask somebody just a little further down the road, and one of the questions that I almost always ask is, if you could go back to yourself 10 years ago, what's some advice that you would give? And I love that question because it makes us think retrospectively. Yeah. For me, it's kind of like I'm sitting there 10 years from your future, like, tell me what you wish you would've known and then let me try to apply that.
Yeah. And, and that's, that's been, that's been so, I, I, I absolutely love it. That's so good. Yeah. It's so good. It's so much fun to when you, you're able to interview someone and, uh, glean from them because most of the time people that have gained a level of success want to share, like they want to help the next guy.
'cause they remember what it was like to struggle and they're like, yeah, let me give you what I wish I had known. Let's go. Yeah. That's great. It's amazing that, that I have people that I connect with right. That early in our business career that I want to get coffee with. That's, this is kind of the way I envision my podcast now is I'm getting to ask questions that I would ask over lunch or coffee.
Somebody and you're just getting to listen in that conversation. Yeah. That, that's really how I handle the, the calls that I do. The, the, the, the podcast. Yeah. So that's pure gold. Um, so what's, what's one thing today from our conversation or with our conversation, for the folks who are gonna hear it, that, whether it's a bit of wisdom or a resource or a tool or something, what would you like for people to be able to take away from the time they've just spent with us today?
That's a great question. Um, I think for me, the, the, a big shift for us was clearly defining out roles within your organization and hiring for those roles, and then adequately delegating to those roles. I if, if, if there's any piece of advice that I could give is around that. It is, don't hire somebody and dump the the job on this.
Don't just give them a job description. Say, Hey, go figure it out. Yes, sit with them, help them, teach them, watch me now do it now I'm gonna watch you now go do it. Right? That this very simple delegation model, but you, you've got to walk alongside you in this process. And then if you hire good people, they wanna work and they wanna work well and they don't want you to look over their shoulder, that's not what they came on the, the team for.
Um, that, that's not your everyday day laborer. Right. That that's not somebody who's just coming in for a short season, a period of time that this is as you're developing our leadership team. Right. That, that's kind of more in, in that arena. Yeah. Oh, that's good. All right, so what's the best way for people to either follow you or learn from you got the podcast Is that is Pillars of Purpose?
Yeah. Pillars of Purpose. Podcasts. It's, it's on everywhere You get podcasts, Spotify, you can watch the videos on Spotify, YouTube, you can listen on Apple, Amazon, SoundCloud, all the different places it, it launches. Um, my email is matthew@ddelightbros.com. Okay. I'm not perfect at responding to emails. I'll be very clear about that.
I do have a day during the week that I typically follow up with those kind of outbound, uh, emails in, in my lead process. So I'd be happy to connect with people, I'd be honored to. And, um, if they want to know more about a franchise system, lighting pros franchise.com, I would be honored to help anybody that send the rest in getting into the outdoor lighting space.
Okay, great. Well, hey, thanks for spending time with me today, Matthew. It's always good to catch up with you. It was good to meet you in person for the first time at the huge convention. And, uh, then we, I didn't mention this earlier, but before we went live, you said after we were talking about all the travel that you and your family have done in the past six months or so, you said?
Yep, yep, yep. And we're leaving tomorrow. What, where are you headed tomorrow? So we are going up to the mountains. Uh, we're, we're gonna spend some time in the mountains, which is, we, it's our happy place. I mean, we just love it. I grew up in, in north Georgia and, um, gonna do some hunting, gonna do some fishing.
Gonna just enjoy the fall weather. Um, the, the leaves right now are absolutely beautiful. Yeah. And so gonna, gonna spend some time up there, which will be very fun. That's great. And I like, it's gonna sound a little weird, but I really admire and I'm, and I'm excited for you to prioritize that time of life to be with your family because as you know, it goes back quickly and uh, and I really appreciate it.
So congratulations on your business success, your podcast, and most of all the time that you have deliberately decided to invest with and spend with your family while they're nice and young. So keep up the good work. Appreciate that a lot. Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today's episode.
I hope you've got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it's easy for you to find and check it out. And also, I wanna let you know the mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business.
And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It's called A Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one's free. Next is the huge foundation's education platform. That is, we've got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you.
And every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners. And it's available to you for a $1 trial for seven days. Next, of course, is the huge convention or the huge convention. If you haven't been, you gotta check it out. It's every August This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee.
That's August 20 through 22nd and 2025, and it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders. We've got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it's got, we've got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business.
And it's the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business. And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business, check out the huge mastermind. Now, it's not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you're building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years.
And it is a network, and a mentorship, and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the freedom operating system. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we'll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com.
And scroll down and click on the freedom path. Or of course, you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I'm getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing.
And if you'd like to show, go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people. And as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening.
We'll see you on the next episode.
 

In this episode of The Huge Transformations Podcast, host Sid Graef sits down with Dan Gibbons, co-founder of Shine Window Cleaning in Toronto, Canada. Dan shares his journey from a college student in a painting program to bootstrapping Shine with his partner and growing it from zero to $6 million in under seven years.
The conversation explores Dan’s entrepreneurial roots—from shoveling driveways as a teenager to knocking doors in the freezing Canadian winter—and how those lessons shaped his approach to growth. Dan reveals the systems, partnerships, and mindset shifts that fueled Shine’s rapid rise, including a strong reliance on door-to-door sales early on, transitioning into digital advertising, and focusing on dense local market penetration rather than premature expansion.
Listeners will gain insight into the realities of scaling a service business, including the importance of delegation (not abdication), the role of mentorship, why belief and resilience matter more than “hacks,” and how to prepare for the leap from owner-operator to true business leader.
 
Resources:
Renewal by Andersen
The Huge Insider newsletter
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
 
Transcript: 
 
got it — here’s your transcript split by speaker, fully unabridged (no edits to wording or punctuation).
 
SID:
 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I’m Sid Graff outta Montana.
 
GABE:
I’m Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
SHEILA:
And I’m Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina, we are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry, folks that have already built seven and eight figure businesses, and they want to help you succeed.
 
HOST:
Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
 
HOST:
Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild. Journey of entrepreneurship. Let’s dive in.
 
SID:
Hey my friend. Welcome back to the Huge Transformations podcast. This is Sy, and today’s episode is gonna be a ton of fun, and here’s why. My friend Dan Gibbons. Whom I met at the huge convention last year, introduced us to our keynote speaker this year. But he’s got a really interesting backstory from a college kid that worked with a painting company to getting a wild haired idea with he and his girlfriend said, we should start our own window cleaning company in Toronto.
 
SID:
So. Normally when someone starts their own window cleaning company, they struggle and stress and they grow nice and slow, and it takes a few years to get to a half a million or whatever. They did a half a million their first year, a million their second year, and then they’ve continued the growth of a million dollars additional revenue every single year they’ve been in business.
 
SID:
So they went from zero to 6 million in under seven years, and I want you to listen in on this conversation and find out and understand how they did it. Because it’s not normal. Dan’s very generous. He’s got a lot of energy and we kind of bounce around all over the place. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, and I hope you learn as much from it as I did.
 
SID:
Also, thanks for joining us on the Huge Transformation Show. Please meet Dan given and thanks for joining us at Sid g Graff and this is a huge transformation podcast and it’s rare when we get to do it live and in person. Usually it’s on Zoom, all stuff. But today we’ve got Dan given with this Dan. Check out the hat, look at that camera over there.
 
SID:
Shine window cleaning in Canada. And, uh, Dan, you’ve got a, you’ve got a fast growing window cleaning operation in Toronto, right?
 
DAN:
Yep.
 
SID:
Yeah. Tell, tell us a little bit about like, well, when did you start?
 
DAN:
Um, I started Shine, uh, we started shine seven years ago, so this is year seven. Uh, but I’ve been in, in the game, so to speak, for about just over a decade now.
 
DAN:
I started in, in university doing like a student painting program, and then I realized I could go out on my own. And here we are.
 
SID:
Do you know anybody else that start with you in that student painting thing? Did they go out on their own? Do you know anybody else that started their own painting?
 
DAN:
Um, it’s an interesting program because, uh, when you go into it, you’re, you’re a bunch of students.
 
DAN:
There’s like 200 students across Canada doing it. And, um, you’re in the program and you’re all hyping each other up and you’re in school, so nobody’s doing anything. And so you guys are like, doing something. Yeah. And, and you’re, you’re convinced you’re all like these crazy entrepreneurs and everybody puts like entrepreneur in their, in their Instagram buyout.
 
DAN:
Um, and then you realize when you leave that maybe like 5% of people actually go out on their own. Most of them end up going for like really high performing jobs. ‘cause now they’re, they understand systems and they’re very capable. Um, a lot, some, I would say. Maybe 10% try to do something on their own, then they realize it’s not for them, and then a small percentage actually end up doing it.
 
DAN:
And um, I mean I think that’s just a testament to like most of life, which is, you know, you gotta figure out what what you want by doing it. But yeah, I have a few friends, I would say a couple that like are very successful from it and a bunch that just kind of went out and realized it wasn’t for that.
 
SID:
Right. Was there a time, like when you were a kid, what was your first kind of. A real thing or sell some things. Did you like sell cookies or any of the stuff?
 
DAN:
Um, I, what was my first thing? My first thing was probably, uh, shoveling driveways. That was like my first independent thing, and I would always try to, before that when I was like six, I would always tried to harass my dad and be like, how much can I make to take out the trash?
 
DAN:
You live here, take out. He’s like, you get to continue sleeping. So, yeah, right. I said, alright. Um, and so, and so my first thing was I was probably like 15 and I convinced my neighbor to go knock on doors with me, uh, and shovel driveways. And, uh, that was my first lesson in, in partnerships because, um, I got very discouraged when he didn’t want to go out with me.
 
DAN:
So after like two nights of knocking on doors, he, um. He would, he would just keep saying, yeah, I don’t want to go tonight. I don’t wanna go tomorrow night. And, and then I wouldn’t go out. And so I was dependent on him to go out. ‘cause in my mind I was like, I’m not gonna do this thing alone. And then I stopped knocking on doors.
 
DAN:
And later in life I realized, oh, that was not, it wasn’t that I should have stopped it was that I stopped because I was relying on someone else who I shouldn’t have been. Like, who wasn’t driven to do that with me. Yeah. And. Um, you know, if I could go back and talk to my yourself, I’d be like, no, you need to go do this because you’re alone and that’ll make you better.
 
DAN:
So that was, that was the first thing. And then there had been a bunch of, like, I like sold weed to my friends. Um, and then I started student painting and I realized that it was much more legal and profitable. Um, and, and then that was when I got hooked. I became, I, I changed my whole life when I, uh, I started becoming addicted to, um, to realizing that I could put in work.
 
DAN:
And get a direct correlation of results for that work. And I went from sleeping in until 10 o’clock in the morning and smoking weed all day and, and staying up late to just being up at six in the morning and working all day till 10, 11 o’clock at night and not taking days off. Um, which ended up being a hard habit to break later.
 
DAN:
But, you know, when I’m 19 that that was what I needed.
 
SID:
Right. Did you, uh, did you ever pick up on, so a lot of the online. People, you know, here’s my morning routine and I get up at six. Yeah. And I read two books and I take an ice bath and do all that.
 
DAN:
I was just before that. So, um, Instagram had like, just started Yeah.
 
DAN:
When I was starting our business. So this was when you could post a picture of like your sock and you’d get like a 400 likes on it. Right. Um, and so no, there was no morning routine stuff until much later when I realized that a lot of it was just garbage. Yeah. Um, and I think morning routines are good. If they help you.
 
DAN:
But I think most people think that by doing it, it will make you productive. And really the mindset that I like that served me the best is just like, get up and work. Just go just, yeah. Just like get up, roll out of bed, have my smoothie, and I just sit down in front of my computer and the closer that I can get to the moment I get out of bed, uh, to doing work is my most productive work.
 
DAN:
Yeah. So anytime I know I need to like really work deep on something. It has to happen before like 10:00 AM or after that my brain is so noisy with stuff that I just can’t focus. Yeah. Um, or there’s a lot of, you know, noise coming at me and so if I can clock in at like 7:00 AM and just work for three hours, I’ll get more done in those three hours than I might week.
 
SID:
Right, right. Yeah, for sure. So let’s go back to the start of Shine. When you started Shine Women Clinic, was it just you, did you have a partner? Was your girlfriend your wife?
 
DAN:
Yeah. I don’t think I could have done it wrong. Um, so my, my old boss. Uh, at student painting was, uh, a year older than me and we had, we had become best friends basically.
 
DAN:
So she was coaching me for four years and then she coached me to coach other business owners. So she was always like a little bit ahead. Um, and, and I really looked up to her. And then when we finished school, we kind of did two different things that we had always talked about, starting a window cleaning company together.
 
DAN:
‘cause we had launched their, their student window cleaning franchise. Okay. So they were just doing painting prior. It. And then we said, wow, this is, this is a really interesting business model. There’s easier, it’s easier to train, there’s higher margins, lower friction, um, uh, lower issues, reoccurring revenue model.
 
DAN:
Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so we kind of, you know, I went to Travel South America. She went to go run a hotel and uh, and then she called me one day when I was in the Galapagos Islands and she said, what do you think about moving to Toronto? Because we were in Montreal. And, uh, I said, why would we move to Toronto?
 
DAN:
She said, well, we, we could start that business we’ve been talking about, um, and there’s lower taxes and there’s no French. And I was like, sure, you know, worst case will be a great story and we’ll just move back. Yeah. And I’m 24 at the time. Um, and so through that process we, uh, we were planning a move together when I got back from the trip and then I was like, I’m not Toronto’s crazy expensive.
 
DAN:
I’m not gonna pay $3,000 a month and she’s gonna pay $3,000 a month for rent. And, and then we’re gonna spend every day together running a business. So we actually started dating throughout this process. Um, and we already known each other for so many years that, yeah, it was just immediately like, okay, we’re probably gonna spend the rest of our life together.
 
DAN:
Um, so we had, we had started Shine together and then, um, uh, one of our best friends, pat, um, was, was also like interested in joining us, but he was still in Montreal, so he ran a franchise of Shine in Montreal. And the original thesis of Shine was to actually just be a franchise. So we already had all the systems and we were like, we know 30 people that wanna start businesses.
 
DAN:
Let’s just call ‘em all up. We’ll get ‘em all to, to run franchises, and that’ll be that. And then, uh, we were young, so everyone we were working with was like in their twenties, early twenties, and a lot of people got cold feet when it came time to like signing contracts and getting serious. Mm-hmm. And we said, you know what, um, if if it’s not a fuck yes, then it’s a fuck no.
 
DAN:
And there was. It was just in hindsight, like we, it was such a great idea that we never partnered with any of these people. Like, I cannot believe how many bullets we dodged, because in hindsight now I’m like, oh man. Like a lot of these people, like we never should work with. Um, and so we just got frustrated.
 
DAN:
We say, why are we depending on all these other people? We should just do our own thing. Yeah. And so we did our own thing. Pat ran a franchise in Montreal, uh, for two years, and then two years in, we, we hit about a million in sales. And, and it had grown beyond like what we could do on our own. So we were at like 10 employees.
 
DAN:
Um, I was getting all the phone calls, training all the employees, dealing with all the problems, doing all the sales. My phone was averaging 110 calls a day. Um, this was like before Apple let you scroll beyond 110. So I was Max. That’s how I knew I was at 110. I couldn’t go past it. Um, and then I said, we need help.
 
DAN:
And I don’t know how to hire an executive team. I don’t know what KPIs to look at. Uh, I just need people that I can trust that are deeply loyal, that are gonna build the ship with us while we’re flying. And so I called Pat and our other friend Dustin, and uh, and I convinced them both to basically run shut down their businesses.
 
DAN:
Pat sold his, um, both of them moved to Toronto and I, we told them, Hey, like, we can’t promise anything, but if you do what we need you to do, uh, then you’ll, you guys will own the company with us. At some point. Yeah. And so that, that’s been five years now. And, uh, and they did, they did that and they worked for five years without taking days off and treated it like their business.
 
DAN:
And, uh, I would say last year they really crossed the point of, of being like completely independent and being able to really drive things forward without us. Yeah. And that was when they said, okay, you know, ownership and, and now the four of us are in the company together. Okay.
 
SID:
Yeah. That’s cool. And you guys have been growing at a really steady clip and a fast look too.
 
DAN:
Yeah. Not a million years.
 
SID:
Yeah. Uh, what’s your, what’s your primary, like, customer acquisition channel? How are you getting that many clients or that much, you know, additional new revenue? You, you said it’s recurring revenue, so I’m assuming like you sold a million in 2020, then you start with about 800,000 in 2021 and you add onto that.
 
DAN:
Yeah. So, um, I would say about 50, 40, 50% is year over year. Mm-hmm. Um, ‘cause it’s a, there’s a lot of one-off stuff. Someone wants their driveway power wash. They don’t need it or windows want, but, um, so in the beginning, the main driver was entirely door to door. So like, I didn’t
 
DAN:
Did you have the whole team?
 
DAN:
It was just you?
 
DAN:
It was me and like some misfits that I found in the streets, you know, like I like go in Indeed. I’d feel like come knock doors with me. I it’s a great job. Yeah. But mostly is that the ad? Mostly because that’s gonna be the best ad ever. Come knock doors with food. It’s a great job. Yeah, basically.
 
DAN:
Um, some money maybe and, and, and it’s knocking doors is tough. Um, but knocking doors is really tough when it’s minus, uh, 25 degrees Celsius, which is I guess like 20 degrees Fahrenheit or something. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it was, it was like there’s ice all over, there’s two feet of snow and you’re knocking on doors at night when people are home from work.
 
DAN:
Yeah. So it’s basically got every part of the job you don’t want. And so there’s a really high turnover rate, and I was mostly doing that, dropping flyers at every house. Mm-hmm. And then. Uh, you know, since then we’ve kind of scaled into, now winter is not the best door knocking season, but spring is, uh, but we actually only knock in the winter, and then in spring we’re just fully on production.
 
DAN:
Okay. Um, now I would say, uh, I haven’t looked at it for this year, but I think last year our stats were, uh, 20 to 30% of our leads came from just organic Google. So like people finding us through lawn signs and, and going to our website, uh, just Google searches, Google Maps, um, being the highest ranking company in the city.
 
DAN:
And then, uh, I would say another, we did, I would say another 20% last year came from Instagram ads. So that was like a really big code that we cracked. What was that year? You’ve done Instagram ads? Last year was the first year we really like pushed it. Um, and, and that was, that was crazy. It was like unlocking like a whole new channel where I went from knocking on doors and putting in three hours of work to book a job, to um, just like.
 
DAN:
Uh, clicking a button to increase the spend on my credit card and getting another a hundred leads. Yeah, and so that was a big one. And then the rest came from, you know, long signs and, and some car magnets and people just seeing us in the neighborhood.
 
SID:
That’s really cool. In your, the market that you serve, the area, like what was the side you’re in Toronto, is that you serve all Toronto or you like
 
DAN:
Yeah, we serve all Toronto.
 
DAN:
So Toronto is about, uh, 6 million people in the greater Toronto area. We’re mostly focused on the core, which is probably. Two and a half ish. Yeah.
 
SID:
Um, have you done everybody yet?
 
DAN:
No. No. We’ve gotten to, I was talking to Brian about this yesterday. We, we did about, uh, I think 8,000 homes last year. Yeah.
 
DAN:
Um, and so it’s crazy ’cause when you look on a map and you zoom out a little bit, it looks like, like the whole, the whole map is covered in blue dots.
 
DAN:
The, the dots. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but when you really zoom in on a street, there might be five dots. The street. So, and then I’m going, oh, so the opportunity is actually the 300 houses in between these houses that I’m not doing. And so what I found is I really want to, like, I, I believe in, in building, uh, a dense business and dominating your local market before going outside.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And I think that, um, most people that I meet who haven’t scaled a lot, um, their first inclination is, I need to grow to a new, new area. They think they’ve tapped up the market. Yeah. But really they’re not even doing 1% of the marketing they should be doing in that market. And so they’re wasting all this energy installing, uh, managers in other locations, driving further out, uh, dealing with, with, you know, different areas.
 
DAN:
Yeah. When they could just, you know, do 10 times as much in that city. And then it becomes way easier to scale in other locations. ‘cause now you have a real system. Yeah. Whereas they’re, you know, to figure out how to manage a team that’s an hour away is, is way harder than doing it when it’s five blocks away.
 
SID:
Right? Yeah. And you lose efficiency driving because it’s low ticket jobs. So if you drive an extra hour, that’s a lot of money you’re running. Whether you can do the neighbor, if you just looked at, like, you define what your total, total addressable market and what the market penetration like if you had to guess, what’s your market penetration of your, um, that core two and a half million?
 
DAN:
I think we can probably do like 50 million just there. Yeah. That’s my, my thesis. Yeah.
 
DAN:
Um, because you’re doing windows and gutters and then. You have power washing. And power washing might be, you know, 10% of our business. Um, but there are power washing businesses doing millions of dollars. Yeah. So, you know, if we cap our, our market cap on, on Windows, we can go 30 minutes further out with the city or we can say, Hey, why don’t we really focus on this power washing brand for advertising that, um, and we have all the tools to do it.
 
DAN:
So it’s really become a function of like. Like looking at the formula of the cost to acquire a customer mm-hmm. And how much that customer is gonna pay us. And so it really just comes down to running the ads. And so I’m going, how much does it cost me to, to find a client and book the job? And what’s the, what’s the multiple, um, in terms of, of what that customer is worth to me?
 
DAN:
So for window cleaning in the off season, it’s not profitable to run ads because you might spend $30 a lead, you’ll book one in, you know, 10 leads, let’s say one in five leads. Uh, so you’re spending several hundred dollars to get that client. Yeah. And then you’re making maybe five, six, $700 on that client revenue.
 
DAN:
But your net profit is less than that. So you’re, you’re actually losing money or breaking even. Yeah. So we won’t run ads in that season, but if I have a service like deck staining or uh, power washing where I’m average ticketing, you know, 1500 to $5,000. Now all of a sudden I’m going, oh, if it costs me $500 to acquire a customer, this is very profitable.
 
DAN:
That’s all right. Now I’m printing money. I am the casino. So I can just, you know, scale up. Yeah. So I think the question is always what’s the ratio of your, your cac, so your lifetime value of your customer. Yeah. And if that map adds up, I just stay in the current market.
 
SID:
Yeah, for sure. And it’s, it’s very cool.
 
SID:
You’ve got it dialed where you like, don’t spend money. It’s like, uh, if you’re fishing, like don’t spend a lot of money on bait throw and you’re hooking the water when the fish aren’t binding. Yeah. There’s, there are times when they, yeah. You don’t fish there. But you know, in Montana, fly fishing, it’s like that summer months.
 
SID:
Yeah. mid-June. Till about September. Yeah. When the water has come down enough that you can fish. That’s the only time you don’t fish in the winter. Yeah, they don’t bite.
 
DAN:
Yeah. I think it’s, I think, um, I think just like. Trying to be thoughtful and like mindful about like what, what impact is what you’re doing.
 
DAN:
And then once in a while, checking in on whether or not continues to make sense. Because sometimes the things you do that get you from zero to one don’t get you from one to 10. Yeah. And, or they’re not as efficient. So a lot of guys here that I, that I meet probably like the most controversial thing is door knocking.
 
DAN:
There are so many people that are like against door knocking. Yeah. And. I say what you will about it, but if you’re starting out and you don’t know anything about marketing or sales or like door knocking is the best way. ‘cause it costs nothing other than your time. Yeah. And people will hire you if they like you, whereas if you’re running a $40 million business and you call me and say, should I install a 50 person door knocking team?
 
DAN:
Well, I think you should probably focus on ads first because you can just deploy capital. Yeah. So my theory is just, you know, focus on where your inputs are easiest. To deploy and what your highest return on investment is gonna be and, and go after that first.
 
SID:
Yeah, for sure. So you brought door knocking in.
 
SID:
Now, you know, on Instagram they’re, they’re a handful of influencers and all about door knocking it, just gimme your hot take on that.
 
DAN:
Oh boy. I get asked a lot about this. Um, I think that, I think it’s like everything, there’s a couple like really good actors in there that genuinely, um, are like making money and wanna help people.
 
DAN:
And then I think there’s a lot of people that saw what they were doing and said, I can make quick money and I’m gonna do this. Yeah. Um, the best way to describe it is, uh, Alex Zi talks about this where he’s like, the people that are making millions of dollars coaching you how to invest your money are not the people that are making millions of dollars investing money because they would just continue investing.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And they would make more money doing that if that was actually how they made their money. And so all these door knocking guys, they go knock on doors. And this is what happens. Even the guys who run their own businesses, they get to a point where they go, oh shit, this is hard work. I’m gonna have to hire people and build a team.
 
DAN:
It would be much easier to just sell a course for $3,000 and then other people can do all the work. Yeah. Um, but every business, once it reaches a certain size, requires work. So they end up facing that, that that problem. So my, you know, short answer is, um, door knocking is amazing. I think it’s incredible.
 
DAN:
I think if you wanna start out, it’s, it’s a great avenue to do it. I think. I’m not a huge fan of like, some of the practices that some of ‘em do, but I respect the hustle. Yeah. And I think that even if it’s not right for you, if, if you buy course from that guy, even if the guy’s not a great guy or he doesn’t, you know, have integrity or follow through on what he’s promising, um.
 
DAN:
You’re gonna learn from that experience and he helped you in that journey, whether it was good or bad, you learned from it. Yeah. And I think it’s just important to continue moving forward and, and try stuff and figure out what works for you. Yeah. And just don’t, don’t be close minded.
 
DAN:
You said that, you know, no matter what, that was a step in your journey that helps you learn that journey.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And I know, uh, one of the guys, some for you now, but like on, on the, this journey for you, in the past eight years, have there been key inflection points where you’re like. I’ve done all I can. I’m stuck. And then you meet somebody mm-hmm. Or you find a mentor. How do you, like what are some of the key influences that you’ve had along the way and, and how did they change the Yeah.
 
DAN:
Trajectory in business?
 
DAN:
Um, I wouldn’t say that there were points where we were stuck. I would say there were points where I got really impatient and I was looking for answers to go faster. And the answer that I got usually was more what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. Um, usually, uh, well, I quote Hormo a lot.
 
DAN:
He’ll say, um, the, the, the answers you’re looking for is hidden in the work you’re avoiding, and generally it comes back to, um, mindset and like your own limitations. Um, and so, how do I put this? Like, if you want to lose weight, you can do all the hacks to lose weight, but the best way to lose weight is just to become a person who thinks like a healthy person.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And then you don’t have to go, oh, I need to say no to this chocolate bar or this pizza. You’re just gonna wake up and be like, I want to go to the gym. I want to go for a workout. I don’t, I don’t, I’m gonna have a banana instead. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you’re gonna lose all this weight. And, um, and I see that in business where, you know, I can, someone can give me all the hacks and here’s how you motivate someone.
 
DAN:
Here’s how you sell this, here’s how you do. But if they really dive deep and, and get to know me, and they go, oh, your, your actual problem is that you don’t care enough about other people. Cool. That unlocks a whole slew of, oh my God, like once I start to really care about other people, now I’m treating my employees better.
 
DAN:
I’m really, I’m asking better questions. Mm-hmm. They feel like I’m listening, I’m doing better in sales. And so, key inflection points, I would say number one is, uh, is my, my wife Kendra, who, uh, who is just like, she always, it, it, it’s very difficult ‘cause she always sees my blind spots. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, it’s taken me years to, to.
 
DAN:
Just hear it and be like, oh shit, if this bothers me, it’s probably true. Yeah. So, um, so she’s usually like the first person that will always be like, this is all the stuff that you’re missing. And I’ll be like, how do you like this? It just, it’s crazy that to have someone else know you better than you can know yourself.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And then I would say, um, the second one has been Brian who, um, who’s just, you know, an anomaly of an anomaly like we were saying earlier. Like he hasn’t just ran a crazy business. But he also, um, really understands where you’re at in your journey and in the same industry too. A similar, you know, in the trade industry.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And, uh, an hour of talking to him totally changed our whole hiring process and how we’re structuring our pay because, uh, he doesn’t just say, Hey, you should pay people by performance. He, he’ll go, this is how you implement that system and here’s how you should structure it, and here are the numbers you should look at, and here’s who should be in charge of it.
 
DAN:
And I’m like, wow, you just saved me like a year and a half of, of trial and error. Um, and so I think that it’s a combination of me trying to like find mentors and rarely finding them and also being in a position where like, I’m ready to receive it. Yeah. And them recognizing and saying, oh, like he’s gonna be worth my time.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And uh, and then I just try to do the same for other people.
 
SID:
But just earlier we were talking about where you first started. Started from scratch, bootstrap, whole thing. Two years, get to a million dollars and. And just a second ago we were talking about total addressable market. You’re like, yeah, we can probably do 50 million in this market.
 
SID:
Yeah. Could you imagine yourself six years ago going, yeah, we’ll probably get to 50 million. What was your big goal?
 
DAN:
Yeah, I mean my, I, I was always like, I wanna do a hundred million. You always big thinker. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve always been, I remember I was, you know, part of it is probably like grandiosity, but uh, I think you have to be delusional, right?
 
DAN:
But you have to have so much delusional self-belief because. What I’ve noticed is that even the people that I coach, like in our business, um, a lot of ‘em are smarter than me in a lot of areas, but I’ve noticed that when I’m coaching them, they stop short of doing the thing that I would do or solving the problem that I would need, needed to solve.
 
DAN:
Not ‘cause they’re not capable of it, but because they’re al they’re like afraid to try and fail at it, and they can’t imagine the, the gap between, like the gap is too wide between where they are and where they want to go. And so they go, oh, that’s just not, like, that’s not possible. Yeah. And I’ll be like, we should do this ’cause this is gonna happen.
 
DAN:
Like, we’re gonna grow by whatever, $20 million and, and, and these are my dreams. And, and they’re like, that’s crazy. Like, why is that crazy? Let’s, let’s like really talk. Like, tell me why. It’s crazy they don’t even have an answer. Yeah. They’re like, uh, I don’t know. It just seems like a lot. And I’m like, well, if we do this and this, we’ll get to five and this and this.
 
DAN:
We’ll get to 10. And, and, and so all of a sudden it becomes like, oh, I guess you’re right. Yeah. And so, uh, I re yeah, I remember being like 12 years old and there’s like a lookout point in Montreal, and I was like, looking over city. I was like, one day I’m gonna, I’m gonna own one of these tall buildings. Um, not ’cause I, I actually care, but I was just like, this is, this is cool.
 
DAN:
Yeah, yeah. And so, um, and so yeah, I think I’ve just always believed that like, like I could do that. And most of my life has just been a, a serious. A series of frustrations and going, I know I can be there. I just haven’t figured out what I need to do to get there. Yeah. And, and I’m like scrambling for the answers and trying to talk to whoever I can and like, what am I missing here?
 
DAN:
What am I missing here? Yeah.
 
SID:
You find, I, I notice a lot of people are, they’re like, is growing stuff. They end up afraid to fail. Like when you, when you start getting some success and you’re competent in something, it’s like learning something new. You’re very become very much unlike the kid that’s trying to learn to ride a bicycle.
 
SID:
Mm-hmm. Kid riding a bicycle, they just wanna ride a bike. Yeah. And they’ll fall down a millions times. They don’t care. Yeah. They don’t wanna ride a bike. But a lot of times you get a little more successful, you’re like, well I don’t wanna look dumb ‘cause I’m learning something. Like you don’t seem to have that.
 
SID:
What holds people back.
 
DAN:
Um, it’s really interesting that you said that. Um, I’m flattered that you said that because I was watching a, an interview with Naval Han Yeah. Who was talking about, about Elon, and he was saying that the thing that really separates Elon from everyone else is that most entrepreneurs, most people, but especially even entrepreneurs, um, have that trait that you just said, which is they, they get a lot of success and then they’re, they’re attached, their ego is attached to that success, and they’re afraid to look stupid and fail at the next thing, so they don’t try other things.
 
DAN:
Whereas if you look at Elon, like he’s, every business he’s had, he pivoted and he was like, forget all this other stuff I’ve done. I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this new thing. I’m gonna go from PayPal to, I’m gonna start a car company, and then, oh, I’m gonna run Twitter and then I’m gonna make a big hole in the ground, and now I’m gonna go to space.
 
DAN:
And so it’s the willingness to constantly just fail over and over again. And I found that, um, ego just, it doesn’t serve you. And you have, and, and each level you go up, you have to shed it. And recognize that, um, you don’t gain anything. You, you, the, the, the mindset that you already know everything is directly an opposite to the mindset of I want to learn something.
 
DAN:
Oh, yeah. You can’t learn if you think you already know. Yeah. And so even when I’m talking to someone who is running a business that’s 5% the size of ours, I go into it like really curious as to how they’re operating because. There’s a 5% chance I might learn something from them and I go, oh, you know, that’s, that’s a really cool way of thinking about it.
 
DAN:
Um, and if I go into it and I go, oh, this guy’s not gonna teach me anything, or, oh, I don’t want to do that. ‘cause I, I might fail at it, then, um, I, I take away the opportunity for myself to learn. And I would say, yeah, I’m just, I’m just so curious. And I never want to be in a position where I look back and say, oh, I, I could have done this, but I didn’t.
 
DAN:
Because I just wasn’t looking at it really? Yeah. Does that make sense?
 
SID:
Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. So imagine this, like get your crystal ball and think out like three years from now, if we’re sitting here, back here in this room, three years from now having the same conversation and you go looking backwards over the past three years, what would have to have happened in your business and maybe in your personal life where you go, this has been a really successful three years?
 
DAN:
That’s a great question. Um, I think that. You know, Brian said it today in his talk, which, uh, really hit me. He goes, it doesn’t matter if you’re right. You have to be influential. You can be right all the time, but if you can’t influence people, it’s meaningless. And I think that that’s really where I’m at in, in my career, where I’ve got guys on the team who are very capable and they’re at a level now where they can execute, but they need guidance on it.
 
DAN:
And thinking back, I’ve, I’ve become much more involved in the day-to-day coaching, uh, over the last two months and really trying to understand like what they do on a daily basis and kind of micromanage, like the strategic way that they go about their week. Mm-hmm. And I’ve noticed that I’ve gotten really good at telling them what to do.
 
DAN:
Um, but I haven’t done a really great job of coaching them so that they don’t need me. And then I can just hop in three weeks later and go, oh, you’re, oh yeah, you’re all over that. And so I think the biggest shift that I would need to make is a, uh, being able to influence them and speak to them on their terms where I’m not just talking at them, but I’m really like making sure that they’re absorbing what I’m saying.
 
DAN:
Mm-hmm. And giving, empowering them to move forward. I would say the second thing is probably, um, to. Um, just more data in the business so we can make better decisions on, uh, running ads, on tracking, uh, production budgets and, and quality control. Um, and then I would say the third thing is I need to become very good at, uh, at hiring, outside, hiring from outside to bring leaders into the business, um, with accurate.
 
DAN:
Okay. So saying, Hey, we need like three new sales managers, let’s go run ads. We’ll get 200 applications, we’ll filter down to the top three. And those three end up working out and being really good. Yeah. Rather than saying, Hey, we’re gonna try this guy, oh, he didn’t work out, you know, in six months, we’ll do it again.
 
DAN:
Um, because as we scale now, the bottleneck is no longer leads. We have more leads than we can handle, and we need to make sure that the operation actually continues to grow. Yeah, yeah.
 
SID:
Interesting you say that. So what recap. You’ve got, you want to um, be the kind of leader where you can coach people into their greater success Yeah.
 
SID:
And make data driven decisions. Yeah. Right.
 
DAN:
Now my um, you know, on the note of our, when, when we were on the, the plane with Brian yesterday, um, I was asking like, what is the, you know, there’s a point where you stop growing in a million year and you grow by five, 10 million years mm-hmm. When you get to hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
DAN:
So what do you feel that is? And um, it was really interesting ‘cause he flipped it on me. He’s like. It, it’s not gonna be, you’re driving the business forward and then you’re gonna bring people up. You actually have to push people up and they’re gonna bring the business up. Yeah. And so up until this point, it’s always been me thinking, okay, how are we gonna add a new marketing channel?
 
DAN:
How am I gonna implement this? Um, you know, I have to go and sit in on all the meetings and, and make sure everybody knows what they’re doing. So I’m, I want to grow, so I’m pushing everyone. Mm-hmm. And after, after this week, my mindset is gonna shift to, I need to just. You know, figure out what everyone else needs to grow and then the growth will take care of itself.
 
SID:
Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, there was a guy last year, I think maybe it was the year before. We, we have, we host our VRP dinner. Yeah. We always have a panel. He’s a guy that started, um, service, not ServiceTitan. Oh yeah. Different the other one. Okay. The lawn care guy, um, oh, Mike Andies. His, his name is Jonathan Osh.
 
SID:
Okay. And I can’t. Like, man, I’m embarrassed. I can’t think of the name of his company, but he, he built it, sold it. He’s got a, still has a long field company, he stuff, but the, um, service on pilot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, we, during the, the meeting, you know, people ask him questions of the panel or the speaker or whomever, somebody, Dan, you’ve grown really fast rule.
 
SID:
What’s the key to success? Yeah. And they’re looking for something that they already want to be the answer. Yeah. Not the answer. And Jonathan just said, look. All the fluff. Cut it. It’s just a bunch of people. Yeah. It’s like, spend more money than you can imagine on the best people you can find and let your team run it.
 
SID:
Yeah. Because there are people that are better at it than you are. Mm-hmm. You all these subcategories and everything else, like get the right people and come loose and pay them really, really well. Yeah. Like, and then he mentioned numbers, but you know, like they had a guy, he was like chief bus business developer or something, and maybe they were paying him 225,000 a year and wasn’t cutting it.
 
SID:
So they hired another guy 400,000 a year. And I was like, I felt my stomach tighten. Yeah. I was like, whoa, you can’t wait so many much. But he was like the guy, you know, he added like $14 million to the business. Yeah. And I was like, that guy was cheap.
 
DAN:
It’s kind of crazy. Yeah. Yeah. The way I, um, I, I went out to, uh, to Vegas and I, I got to meet, um, Alex and Layla Hor.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And, um, and I was, I was asking. Um, I said, you know, I’m at a point now where I have to start. This was at the beginning of last year, so it’s almost, almost two years ago now. Okay. And, uh, and I said, Hey, I’m, I’m at a point where I need to start looking at like, executive leadership and, and bringing people in at like six figure salaries.
 
DAN:
Um, and I was just wondering, like, I feel like I’m almost avoiding it ‘cause it’s scary and I’m like, what happens if I hire this person? I spend six, you know. 80 grand on them, and then I have to cut them. I lose all the money, but worse I lose all the time. It took me to train them and then they drop. Um, and, and so how do you, you know, deal with that mentally?
 
DAN:
And she basically just laughed at my face and was like, oh, of course you’re gonna fuck it up. You can’t avoid that. And I was like, oh. And she’s like, yeah, like you can’t win in anything until you fuck it up 3, 4, 5 times. Yeah. So instead of trying to avoid it. Try to fail at it as fast as possible. Yeah. And just accept that that’s the, that’s the, the cost of success.
 
DAN:
Like the failure is the tuition for what you want. And you have to pay that price somehow. And so she’s like, let’s say you go and you figure this out tomorrow. What do you unlocking in your business? At least, you know, a million dollars. So whatever you’re, it’s costing you. Uh, what whatever you, whatever you’re trying to save by not doing it and not losing that money is actually costing a million dollars.
 
DAN:
Yeah. That’s the ignorance tax. Yeah. That’s a great perspective. And so from that point, I was like, okay, I’m excited to go and burn a up and screw it up because then I’m, I can do the next and by the third person I’ll get there. Yeah. And so we actually just had that happen. We had, um, we, we were trying to build a software on top of Salesforce.
 
DAN:
Uh, we had it all mapped out. We were so excited. We hired a developer. I spent a year and a half and, and, and six figures on the project. Um, and the, the developer screwed me. They, they made a bunch of promises, they couldn’t do anything about it. Um, and I got, I got absolutely railed on the project and, and I lost sleep for like, a month on it.
 
DAN:
Like I was, I was so anxious over it. I was like, losing all this money. I, I can’t believe I got screwed. I felt ripped off. Um, and then, and then my wife looked at me and she’s like, you know, this is entirely your fault. Um, you’re angry at these people, but like there were so many flags along the way that you missed that you could have pulled the plug on the project halfway or aqua three quarters and you didn’t.
 
DAN:
And, uh, and she’s like, I don’t blame you for it, but, um, but like, this is a lesson for you that you should have. You should, there was a lot of different things you could have done. And the moment that I flipped it and I was like, yeah, you’re right. Like, I’m angry at them, but this is a hundred percent my fault.
 
DAN:
And now that I went through that. I had, like if that was a $10,000 lesson, it might not have hurt me enough to force me to change to really make, but because it cost me 120 grand, like that really cuts so deep that I’m never gonna make a lot of those mistakes again. And those skills are transferrable, right?
 
DAN:
Like I might not need those skills on another software project, but I might hire someone else and I’m gonna notice some of those same red flags that I should have caught in those people. Yeah. And I’m gonna avoid the million dollar mistake because I made it earlier. So. Once you see it as like, this is the price I’m paying for, you know, life coaching.
 
DAN:
Uh, you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t really get easier. It, it, it, it still hurts. Um, but now, you know, things that I used to lose sleep over that were, you know, 10, 20, 30 grand, they don’t bother me because I’m like, ah, this is not as bad as 150 k. Right. Yeah. It’s part of the, part of the dream. Yeah. I’m like, I made it through that.
 
DAN:
This is, this is small.
 
SID:
So as we we land the plane, what, um, what advice would you give to the, you got, there’s somebody’s watching the podcast. Yeah. They’re like, they’re on the truck. They’ve got a helper. Mm-hmm. They’re wearing every hat, but they’ve got a bigger vision. Like, I need to get, I want to build a business, not just have a job.
 
SID:
Yeah. Like what’s your advice to them?
 
DAN:
Um, it’s a good question because. You know, I was, I was laughing with Brian yesterday because he was saying, you know, all these people say, you know, you gotta work on your business, not in your business. And he’s like, fuck that. You need to be in the business. Otherwise you’re so high, you don’t know what’s going on.
 
DAN:
You’re not, customers aren’t happy. Um, and I think there’s nuance to that. I think when you’re really big, that’s the advice you need is get stop working on your, go into your business. Understand, get the weeds. Yeah. Go visit the customer’s house randomly. Even if you have thousands of clients, you’ll learn a lot.
 
DAN:
Um, I think you do need to work on your business instead of in your business if you, if you’re just in on the truck. But I think really the mindset, and I talk, I’m gonna talk a lot about this, um, when, at my talk later, is, um, you can, you cannot work more than 24 hours in a day. And so even if you’re really good at something and you think that you, no one can do it better than you.
 
DAN:
When you, when your business grows, your attention gets split, and now you’re 10% on 10 different things and 10% of your best. Is always gonna be worse than someone else is a hundred percent on it. Yeah. And my philosophy is like, if I could go back, I would go slower. I would spend more time making sure that everyone did their job perfectly and really knew what they were doing before I continued to try to drive sales and scale up.
 
DAN:
And I don’t think there’s. There’s any rush to it. Like I think that the goal is to just have clients who love you and who love working with you and are happy because if you’re charging money for something and people don’t like you, then you’re just, you know, driving negative value and you’re taking, and I think that if, if, you know, I guess the one piece of advice I would give would be, um, just start training that one person on your team to take over that team and then.
 
DAN:
Hire another person and do it again. And then you’re gonna all of a sudden be managing three or four crews, and then you’re gonna get really busy and you’re gonna go, okay, now I have to train the next person to manage these crews. What most people do, yeah. Is when they want to scale, they abdicate instead of delegate.
 
DAN:
And so ab, is it abdication? Abdication, yeah. When the abdication is saying, um, this is your problem now, goodbye. The allegation is saying, okay, you’re going to take this over. And I’m gonna slowly, you know, walk you through it and then step back a little bit each day until you’re a hundred percent capable of it.
 
DAN:
Yeah. And so that’s, I think I did too much advocating first, and now I’m like, really? Okay, I’m gonna tell ‘em to do it, but then I’m gonna check in next week, but maybe daily. And then after three months I’m gonna kind of step back, step back, and then I’m gonna check in quarterly with you and, and yeah. So I would say just, just trust the process and believe that anyone.
 
DAN:
Can do a better job than you if they’re really focused on it. And, and your vision is to create that life for everyone. And you need their, your dreams need to be big enough for their dreams to fit into it. And if they’re not, then people are gonna leave you and they’re not gonna be able to grow, and you’re not gonna have a business that can thrive.
 
SID:
Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Agreed. For, for anybody that’s, that watches this later on. Um, that it, that’s why like, I love having guys and people that have built. A little bit further down the road than you know you. And we’re always looking for people that are like, you’re just further down the path. And one of the things that Brian said this morning, and one of the slides he had, uh, Roger Banister, the first guy break four minute mile.
 
SID:
I love that story. Austin. All you need is to recognize that somebody’s already done it. And you’re like, oh, it’s not a crazy ass idea. Yeah. Dan’s already done it, so I’ll just do what he did. Or maybe I don’t even do what you did, but I just, my belief expands. Yeah. And now. Step into it in the future.
 
DAN:
Yeah, that’s my, uh, you know, it’s a gift and a curse because in the beginning I, I was consuming so much content online, reading so many, and everyone that I was speaking to, reading about studying was worth a hundred million dollars or more.
 
DAN:
And so it became this like anxiety where I was like, I’m not doing enough. I suck. You know, what am I not, what am I getting wrong? Um, and then, you know, you, you, you remove the context. You don’t remember that, oh, all the guys in their twenties are lying about it, and all the guys who are doing it are actually 65 and a lot of them, you know, anyway.
 
DAN:
So I think that, uh, yeah, knowing that it’s possible is a huge thing, but then once you identify that it’s possible, leave that there and just go head down and, and work. Yeah. And, and stop. Trying to get more information and just focus on executing. That’s it. Yeah. Nothing happens till whoever hits the road.
 
DAN:
Somebody’s gotta do it.
 
SID:
Exactly. Alright, thanks for your time. Thanks for having me. Cool.
 
SID:
Hello my friend. This is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today’s episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen, anything that was covered, uh, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools, anything like that is in the show notes, so it’s easy for you to find and check it out.
 
SID:
And also, I wanna let you know the. Mission for the huge convention and for this podcast is to help our blue collar business owners like you and I, to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways. Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It’s called a Huge Insider.
 
SID:
I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry. Period, paid or otherwise, and this one’s free. Next is the huge foundation’s education platform. That is, we’ve got over 120 hours of industry specific education and resources for you, and every month we do, uh, a topical webinar and we do question and answer with seven and eight figure business owners, and it’s available to you for a $1 trial for seven days.
 
SID:
Next, of course. Is the huge convention or the huge convention? If you haven’t been, you gotta check it out. It’s every August This year it’s in Nashville, Tennessee. That’s August 20th through 22nd and 2025. And it is the largest and number one rated. Trade show and convention for home service business builders.
 
SID:
We’ve got the biggest trade show, so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. And it’s got, we’ve got, um, education, world class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it’s the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
 
SID:
And then lastly, if you wanna pour jet fuel in your business. Check out the Hughes Mastermind now. It’s not for everyone. You gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue and you’re building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. And it is a network, and a mentorship and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom operating system.
 
SID:
We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs and how we’ll help you advance your business quickly just by going to the huge convention.com. And scroll down, click on the freedom path. Or of course you can find the links here in the show notes. So, sorry, I feel like I’m getting a little bit wordy, but I just wanna let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful, small business.
 
SID:
So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you’d like to show. Go ahead. I mean, if you would go and take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it, man. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people, and as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me.
 
SID:
So thanks again for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.

In this episode of The Huge Transformations Podcast, Sid Graef sits down with keynote speaker and industry icon Brian Gottlieb, the founder of Tundraland Remodeling and author of Beyond the Hammer. Recorded live at The Huge Convention, this conversation pulls back the curtain on how Brian scaled a $3,000 startup into a $150M powerhouse in just 12 years.
Brian shares how execution—not ideas—is what drives success, the importance of building aligned teams, and how inspiration became the rocket fuel behind his leadership style. He digs into pivotal moments, like launching his own home show to outmaneuver competitors, turning old windows into community art projects, and creating marketing campaigns that made customers co-producers in the brand.
Listeners will walk away with practical wisdom on execution, leadership, and scaling—along with powerful reminders that culture matters, discipline drives profit, and belief is transferable. Whether you’re a home service entrepreneur or a marketer hungry for growth insights, this episode delivers high-level strategies grounded in real-world experience.
Guest:
Brian Gottlieb – Founder of Tundraland Remodeling, author of Beyond the Hammer
LinkedIn
 
Resources
Beyond the Hammer by Brian Gottlieb
Renewal by Andersen
The Huge Insider newsletter
The Huge Insider podcast downloadable action guide
The Huge Mastermind info page
The Huge Convention Facebook Community
 
Transcript:
Sid Graef: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Huge Transformations podcast. I’m Sid Graef outta Montana.
 
Gabe Torres: I’m Gabe Torres here in Nashville, Tennessee.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: And I’m Sheila Smeltzer from North Carolina. We are your hosts and guides through the landscape of growing a successful home service business. We do this by interviewing the best home service business builders in the industry—folks that have already built seven- and eight-figure businesses—and they want to help you succeed.
 
Gabe Torres: Yep. No fake gurus on this show. Just real-life owners that have been in the trenches and can help show you the way to grow profitably. We get insights and truths from successful business builders, and every episode is 100% experience, 0% theory. We are going to dig deep and reveal the good, the bad, and the ugly.
 
Sheila Smeltzer: Our guests will share with you the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to winning. In short, our guest will show you how to transform your home service business into a masterpiece. Thanks for joining us on the wild journey of entrepreneurship. Let’s dive in.
 
Sid Graef: Hey, my friends, this is Sid with the Huge Transformations podcast, and this is a really exciting episode for two main reasons. One, we’re recording it live, in person, at The Huge Convention—and generally, you know, we do these on Zoom or something. But today I had Brian Gottlieb, and he was one of our keynote speakers. I got to sit down with him for 45 minutes and really go deep on the questions. I think you’re gonna love it. If you wanna see it on video, it’s on our YouTube channel, so you can check it out there.
 
Brian is the guy that started Tundraland Remodeling. They started as a bathroom remodeling company—started with a folding card table, $3,000, and a borrowed space in the back of a buddy’s warehouse. And in 12 short years, he built that to a $150 million-a-year juggernaut. And when he spoke on stage, it was mind-bending how authentic he was—for a guy that has a private jet and has done incredibly well—but he was down-to-earth, authentic, and is incredibly principle-driven. And that’s what you’re gonna hear during this podcast interview on the Transformation Show. I really hope you enjoy it. Give me some feedback. Without further ado, meet Brian Gottlieb.
 
Sid Graef: It’s Brian Gottlieb at the Huge Transformations podcast. All right—did that feel official? Do you feel like—
 
Brian Gottlieb: It felt great. I loved it.
 
Sid Graef: The old snap the thing.
 
Brian Gottlieb: I loved everything about it.
 
Sid Graef: Yeah. So this is the Huge Transformation podcast—it’s part of The Huge Convention—and the idea of the show is to find people who have, wherever they started, built a level of success. And we wanna hear the story about the journey because everyone can relate to the story, and they’ll find themselves in it. So I’m very thankful for your time. I’m with—for camera world—I’m with Brian Gottlieb, and Brian is the author of Beyond the Hammer—which, and I don’t say this lightly, is an excellent book, and I’ll tell you why in a minute. He also built Tundraland Home Improvements from scratch to a significant nine-figure business before making an exit. And it was very gracious of you to be here and to speak at our conference.
 
Brian Gottlieb: Thank you. Yeah. Great conference too, by the way. If people haven’t been to this, it’s fantastic. The energy’s incredible. Your team does such a great job, and the venue is like perfect.
 
Sid Graef: Yeah. Did you have a chance to, like, chat with some of the attendees?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Oh yeah. I chatted with a lot of people. It’s just so good. You know, it’s so cool because you’ll meet somebody that just got into business or has been doing it for a while, but what they all share is they share this learning mindset. They’re very curious individuals and—and like a lot of blue-collar industries— they share with each other too. It’s not like, “Oh, you’re my competitor; we don’t talk about that stuff.” People are very open as to where they’re at, to create industry.
 
Sid Graef: That’s so good. Yeah, and it’s cool—back home we generally don’t talk to our competitors or have a mastermind with our direct competitors, but when you put a thousand miles of distance between the guy you’re talking to, they’re like, “I’ll tell you everything you want.”
 
Brian Gottlieb: Well, and it’s interesting, because the truth is—it’s all about execution anyway. So you can talk about anything, but ultimately you gotta go back and you gotta execute on it.
 
Sid Graef: Yeah. And that’s the hard part—but talk about that a little bit. I heard somebody say million-dollar ideas are garbage; they’re worthless. You need million-dollar execution. So—are you naturally hardwired to execute? Did you have to train yourself? How do you get it going if you’re not naturally wired that way?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Look, I’m personally a rather driven human being. When I was younger, I certainly ran a lot faster than I do right now. But I also understood early on where my weaknesses were—the gaps I needed to fill in my business in order to execute—and I surrounded myself with really good executors. In all fairness, I didn’t build the business. It was the team that built the business, and I was just along for the ride. Yeah, it was a great ride. It was three different businesses: a business in Arizona, my Tundraland business, and I had a couple of Renewal by Andersen window companies. So it was—but they all flourished. Great team, and a fun ride.
 
Sid Graef: Curiosity question with Renewal by Andersen—when they started doing, you know, we started seeing their marketing in our area several years ago, and it was like the marketing was so pervasive. Did you learn something from Renewal by Andersen that you applied to Tundraland and your other companies?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Yeah—well, that’s a great question. We were a rather mature business by the time we took on Renewal by Andersen. We already had, I probably already had 300-ish, 400 employees. But I enjoyed the way they looked at forecasting the business and some of the metrics they looked at. I thought, “Well, that’s a good idea; I need to replicate some of that.” What they’re really good at, though, as a manufacturer, is they don’t just sell products; they’re in the product and service business. So if you’re a new Renewal by Andersen location—yeah, they’ll sell you windows—but if you need to use their call center, or you need to use their financing team… They figured out where the gaps are in the industry and what holds people back, and they backfill it until you can get it up and going on your own.
 
Sid Graef: Wow. That’s really interesting. So let’s back up and pick up some of the story. The sound bites that we hear about you—this is like, yeah, started from scratch (this is 15 years ago, by the way). Age 50—roughly correct, right?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Yeah, yeah.
 
Sid Graef: A folding card table in the back of a buddy’s warehouse and three grand—and like, “I’m gonna do this bathroom remodeling thing.”
 
Brian Gottlieb: That’s right.
 
Sid Graef: And then when I look at the result 12 years later, I go—there had to be somebody with the pedal to the floor the whole way—gas, no brake. Like that. So give me a couple of context points: why did you start? You were doing something before that—you were at age 50. Was this a second career?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I was doing something before that. I started off, you know, just carrying the bag at the kitchen table and selling stuff since I was a kid. But when I turned about 40, I started my own consulting business where I was doing sales training. And I’ll tell you a story that I don’t usually share with people. The name of the company back then was Silverstone Training—sales training. I worked with companies across the country.
 
What I would do is survey every single sales rep that ever went through one of my training classes. I’d ask questions like: “What’s one word that describes Brian? What’s one thing you learned?” To this day I have this book of surveys, and it’s literally this thick. What I expected to read when I was reviewing the surveys were, “Wow, I learned how to be a good closer; I really learned how to win.” But I kept seeing the words “inspirational” and “motivational.” And I’m looking at this like—all these people calling me inspirational and motivational? I never saw that as part of me. I never identified myself that way.
 
In that moment—which was, by the way, a pivot point in my life—I thought, “Huh. If everybody else is saying that, what if I just do more of that? Then what could my life turn into?” And it was one of the motivating factors when I started the business. I thought, I’m going to build a business that’s an inspirational place to work. I want to inspire my team; I want to inspire the customer; I want to inspire the community. That was really the rocket fuel that allowed everything else to grow. If it wasn’t for those surveys, I’d never have even known it.
 
Sid Graef: That’s really interesting. There’s—gosh, I did the exercise once and it was probably Michael Hyatt or somebody. Email five of your closest friends and say, “What do you think I’m really great at?” And the feedback you get—“Huh, I didn’t realize… I know I do that, but I didn’t think I was any good at it.” The old Scottish saying: Oh, wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us—because we see a filtered version of ourselves through our own eyes.
 
Brian Gottlieb: Right. And how people really see us is powerful—how many people actually pay attention to that?
 
Sid Graef: That’s really cool. Okay—so you started with the idea of leaning into Inspirational Brian, and building a company. Did you start by, like, “I’m an architect; this is what the business is gonna look like and here are the components,” or did you go, “Lights are on; let’s run—we’ll build as we go”?
 
Brian Gottlieb: That was it—I’m building the car as it’s running down the highway. I didn’t have a grand master plan to build a $150 million home-improvement company. What I wanted to do was—at the time (2009–2010)—if you were a $10 million company, you were a whale. Now there are a lot of really big companies; technology has fast-forwarded all that. So my grand vision was: if we can build a $10 million company, we would be one of the largest in the nation. How do we just do that? That was the first stretch goal.
 
Sid Graef: And what was so interesting is once you hit that—
 
Brian Gottlieb: —then we realized we had success with marketing and selling, and what became our wildest dreams for a target started to feel more like our destiny. It was really interesting. Like I spoke at your conference today: once a business gets really good at forecasting targets and then hitting targets with a high level of certainty—and you get your whole team focused on that daily—what makes blue-collar so cool is everybody can have a daily target. If they get really good at hitting their daily targets, and the business gets good at hitting its targets, it gets really fun to build something. Now you just throw cash at it and people at it and you just go, go, go.
 
Sid Graef: When you started building like that—did you share with everyone like, “This is the big vision,” or did you focus on, “These are your daily targets”?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Both. I was very transparent with my financials, because if I need the business to perform, people have to understand their piece—their role in achieving it—both from a KPI standpoint and a financial standpoint. The business has to be healthy, and people were compensated around their numbers. So they had to know the big vision, the team’s vision statement, and everyone’s individual role in achieving it—and why each individual is necessary. There’s not one person more important; we’re going to win or lose together. To get an aligned team that performs at a high level and with consistency—in my opinion—can win in any market with any product, regardless of the competition.
 
Sid Graef: I couldn’t agree more. Who were your first two hires?
 
Brian Gottlieb: My first hire was someone to take on production—because I’ve gotta go out and sell stuff. I’ve gotta make leads, I’ve gotta sell stuff. And I had to come up with very creative compensation structures. I started the business with $3,000; there wasn’t a lot of money to put in. I never put another penny in after that. So I had to create comp structures so I could bring somebody on board and grow with them. First a production person, then another salesperson. I felt I had to hire to my weakness, and then replicate my strength as quickly as possible—because that’s really going to scale the business.
 
Sid Graef: What were the first five years like?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Chaos. And look—chaos can produce revenue, but discipline produces profit. We were figuring out who we were as an organization; how to win. When you have 7, 8, 9, 10 people, the leader can be very connected to everything going on. True for the first couple of years. But once you get to 20, 30, 40, 50 people, now I’m a little disconnected. It’s so important to figure out ways to ensure we’re delivering a great customer journey, we’re hiring the right way, and we’re not terminating people and having them be surprised. All those little things significantly affect culture—and culture matters.
 
Sid Graef: When you were running on that path and learning those things—like, “when somebody gets fired, it shouldn’t be a surprise”—were you figuring that out, or did you assign a leader to go build that lane?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I made the horrible error of having to let somebody go, and they looked at me like, “Why didn’t you tell me I wasn’t working out?” I felt terrible. It was my mistake, and it’s a mistake I promised myself I’d never make again. Nobody should ever wonder where they’re at. This is why performance reviews and one-on-ones are so important. I had to make that part of the DNA of the business, because I didn’t want anybody else to make the same mistake. We’ve never done this before—we don’t know how to lead a business—so we figure some things out as we go.
 
Sid Graef: Was it difficult for you personally—going from a dozen employees where you’re connected one-to-one, to 50 employees you might not even know all of them?
 
Brian Gottlieb: It was difficult. Also difficult was releasing control. There was a time when, sadly, I was the bottleneck of the business. People were waiting in line to ask me a question so they could go do their job—which is ridiculous. I had to learn how to build an aligned team, how to empower them without me being the bottleneck, how to give people authority and autonomy to run their department. That all comes from transparency. If I spend time doing a 10-minute huddle with my team in the morning—even over the phone—that solves the need for a lot of other meetings. It creates alignment. If we’re very clear on what we’re trying to accomplish and everybody knows their role, arriving at the destination is a whole lot easier.
 
Sid Graef: Wow. As the growth trajectory continued—did it hockey-stick or was it steady?
 
Brian Gottlieb: It was a run.
 
Sid Graef: Did you have to re-introduce yourself to your wife after a few years—“Hey, it’s me”?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Exactly—“Hey, it’s me; I haven’t seen you in a while.” She would walk in and look at all these crazy, energetic people running around like, “I don’t know what you guys are doing, but keep doing it.” The year was 2014 when the business really exploded. We were probably doing $8–10 million a year, and I had maybe 10 sales reps, plus or minus. We were getting ready to go into home show season. There were a million companies doing baths and sunrooms, and I’m like—“We’re going to compete with all these people; we’re gonna get our butt kicked.”
 
So I said, how do we win without fighting? What if, instead of waiting for home show season, a month before that we put on our own home show? And I mean—we go crazy. I bought a building that ended up being our warehouse and converted it to our very own home show. I set up every product like its own store. I brought in a couple of other non-competing companies to fill it up, and I promoted “The Tundraland 50% Off Home Show—going on now.” Big, big campaign; I spent a lot promoting it. People came. We wrote like $650,000 in business off that three-day show.
 
In that moment I realized—holy smokes—we can market our way into this business. If I get aggressive on marketing, and if we have a good process to manage leads, close sales, and install properly, we can keep cranking that marketing valve—and there’s no stopping us. That taught me we had a good business.
 
Sid Graef: That’s outside-the-box—how about a different box: “Let’s make our own home show.” Phenomenal. Was it around that time you came up with Sing in the Shower?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Shortly after. Instead of setting up shower displays with soap and towels, we put musical instruments, microphones, and speakers—and got people to sing in our shower—and send a kid to music school. We always looked for ways… In 2008–2009 it was very difficult for a lot of people—great people lost their jobs. I remember sitting at kitchen tables and people saying, “I don’t know if I’m gonna have a job tomorrow.”
 
We wanted to not have that type of company. We wanted to build a brand woven into the fabric of the communities we serve. A company that could do well and do good—to make a decent profit, but do so decently. So we looked for cool ways to impact the communities and the individuals in them. It became our point of differentiation—and it made the customer a co-producer in our business.
 
Sid Graef: Where you largely the creative driver—“Have people sing in the shower”—or did the team spawn crazy ideas too?
 
Brian Gottlieb: We ran no-bad-idea brainstorms. Things like Windows for a Cause—instead of throwing old window sashes in the trash, give them to local artists and community members, ask them to turn them into art pieces, then once a year display them and do a public auction. All the money raised goes to help someone in our community. It started as: if I donate to a nonprofit, you write a check and it goes over a river—you never see the result. We believed if you can make a positive impact in the life of one individual, that’s how we can take part in changing the world. And how can I get everybody in the business to participate—versus just writing a check? Get every single person to feel like, “We’re building something cool here.”
 
Sid Graef: Did everybody end up taking part?
 
Brian Gottlieb: We got the whole team involved. They’re proud of it. People want more than a job; they want a career path and to feel like they’re having an impact. Families are proud that their spouse/parent is working at a great organization that does well and good.
 
Sid Graef: Did the level of success—revenue and all—surprise you?
 
Brian Gottlieb: 100%. The business was constant growth; we never had a down year. Challenging years? Yes. Years we didn’t make any money? Yes. But never a down revenue year. We learned to be excellent at not just selling, but making money at it—chaos produces revenue; discipline produces profits. As the business grew to 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 people, lots of locations—I had great managers with P&L responsibility. But as I got older, I started to become more risk-averse.
 
Sid Graef: Were you surprised by that change in yourself?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I was—and that’s when I knew it’s time for me to do something else. A business needs a driven entrepreneur who’s going to push the limits. That was one of the motivating factors for why I sold my businesses. Also—if I get hit by a bus, do I want my wife to run a massive home-improvement company across multiple states? No. And I had a great team with strong legs—give them a chance to go run.
 
People ask, “Why did you open all these locations or take on products?” I’m a big believer you build a business by building people. When you focus on building talent and bench strength, you’ve got two choices: give them opportunities or you’re going to lose them. I’d open another location or add a product if one of two things happened: (1) the team was itching for something to do, or (2) the cost to generate a lead in an existing product became saturated in a market—time to open another one.
 
Sid Graef: Did you ever feel, “Is my dream big enough to accommodate the growth of this team?”
 
Brian Gottlieb: I felt the team would rise to the occasion of any dream we had. Nothing was too big or too bold.
 
Sid Graef: Were there times your key leaders said, “Are you out of your mind?”
 
Brian Gottlieb: Funny story—Windows for a Cause. I had a crazy idea: we set up 100 windows… I wonder what the world record is—let’s set a Guinness World Record. I cold-called Guinness. They didn’t have a category but loved the story. They said if you display 1,500 painted windows, that would set the record. We set up 100; not 1,500. That’s two tractor-trailers of windows. I rented a giant exhibition center, filled it with plastic folding tables as far as you could see, paint, and window sashes. Two tractor-trailers came in. My wife—God bless her—was one of the painters; she must have painted 80 windows. We invited the entire community; the news media covered it. A weekend of window painting—people brought kids and grandkids. We set the Guinness World Record. Some ideas were “Really? Are you sure?”—but we did it.
 
Sid Graef: No way you could have thought at the start, “We’re going to set a Guinness record for window painting.” Amazing. Now—since you’ve exited, you’re teaching more, you published a great book. It’s been very beneficial to a couple people I know—me being one of ’em—with the key concept “belief is transferable.” I was waiting for my team to believe on their own instead of me giving them the juice.
 
Your maxims—like “chaos produces revenue; discipline produces profit,” and your five core principles (belief is transferable, etc.)—were those pre-installed, or how did you develop them? Do you naturally speak in sticky, repeatable phrases?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I wanted to understand—not just have success, but why we were successful. As we grew, we had to form core beliefs. If we’re going to bring on people who’ve never done this, then we must grow them. For that reason, belief is transferable—it’s our responsibility to teach, train, and believe in them. When people can associate what they’re supposed to do with a phrase, it’s stickier. The book has been great.
 
Now that I’ve sold my businesses—I’m grateful every day that I can make a positive impact. I believe the best way I can do that is through the blue-collar entrepreneur. That’s my path to impact—because when they do well, the ripple effect is tremendous.
 
Sid Graef: And now, with AI—everybody thought robots would take over toilet cleaning first, but it’s white-collar creatives getting rocked (ad copy, etc.). Mike Rowe said we’re 500,000 electricians short. The blue-collar mission for The Huge Convention is to help our blue-collar brothers and sisters build a better business.
 
Brian Gottlieb: It’s great that 17-, 18-, 19-, 20-year-olds can start a business with a little chutzpah, a pair of knuckles, and the willingness to knock doors. It’s the next generation. It’s enjoyable to watch that energy. It’s promising they’re doing the right type of business the right way.
 
Sid Graef: A contribution like yours—with a book and your teaching—gives people a how. Not a single blueprint works for everyone, but you highlight the significant things. Our friend Dan Gibbons said, “Have you heard of this book?” I read it on a flight. It starts with a story—a business parable—so I got sucked right in.
 
Would you share a story—someone impacted by you/your company/your teaching—who came back around?
 
Brian Gottlieb: Yes—all the time. Of all the business stats—net profit, revenue, lead gen—my favorite is this: close to 40 people who used to work for me now have their own business. I love that. And they’re doing it the right way—and mentoring others. That’s legacy.
 
Sid Graef: Look into the future—you’re not going to just golf. What’s next?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I’m working on another book. This one’s been wildly successful; I’m heading to London in September because it’s up for an international book award. It’s been a great ride. Here’s a little insight: People love fiction series (e.g., Jack Reacher). It’s never been done in nonfiction as a business parable series. I’m writing a Marty Gold series—the mentor from Beyond the Hammer. Marty meets another person who needs mentoring (next book is sales). My plan is to continue writing these business-parable series.
 
Sid Graef: Brilliant. Have you publicized that?
 
Brian Gottlieb: I’m just starting to talk about it now. Trying to shake it up—if everyone is going this way, how about we go that way?
 
Sid Graef: For our listeners who want to build a better business—what’s your parting message?
 
Brian Gottlieb: It starts with building a better you. If we’re going to build a better business, we have to become a different kind of leader—and that leader is inside you. It comes from igniting the passion of the people on your team, because you can’t build a great business by yourself. The lid of the business is connected to the lid of the people on the team. Commit to building people, helping them develop, getting them to believe in themselves, getting them involved in a vision, helping them set targets, achieving targets together, learning when you miss targets.
 
People say “work on the business, not in the business.” Look—you’ve gotta be in the weeds in the beginning. But really, you want to be in the hearts of the people on your team. Help them and join them on the journey of figuring things out. Don’t let life get in the way—upset customers, a bad hire… We all make those mistakes. You can have a bad hire; it doesn’t mean you should stop hiring. You can promote someone and it doesn’t work; it doesn’t mean you should stop promoting. Believe in your team; give them something to believe in—and believe in them back. Your wildest dreams will start to feel more like your destiny.
 
Sid Graef: Wow. Landed that one. We’re good. Thank you—thanks for your time again.
 
Brian Gottlieb: Thank you. Congrats on a great show. What a great conference you put on—fantastic. Great people, great energy. You make such a positive impact in this community, and I thank you for what you do.
 
Sid Graef: You’re welcome. Thank you so much.
 
Sid Graef: Hello my friend, this is Sid. Thank you again so much for taking your time to listen to today’s episode. I hope you got some value from it. And listen—anything that was covered, any of the resources, any of the books, any of the tools—anything like that—is in the show notes so it’s easy for you to find and check out.
 
Also, I want to let you know: the mission for The Huge Convention and for this podcast is to help our blue-collar business owners—like you and I—to gain financial and time freedom through running a better business. And we do that in four ways.
 
Number one is our free weekly newsletter. It’s called The Huge Insider. I hope you subscribe. It is the most valuable newsletter for the home service industry—period—paid or otherwise—and this one’s free.
 
Next is the Huge Foundations education platform. We’ve got over 120 hours of industry-specific education and resources for you, and every month we do a topical webinar and we do Q&A with seven- and eight-figure business owners—and it’s available to you for a $1 trial for seven days.
 
Next, of course, is The Huge Convention. If you haven’t been, you gotta check it out. It’s every August—this year it’s in Nashville, Tennessee—that’s August 20th through 22nd, 2025—and it is the largest and number-one-rated trade show and convention for home service business builders. We’ve got the biggest trade show so you can check out all the coolest tools and meet the vendors and check out the software to run your business. We’ve got world-class education and educators and speakers that will teach you how to run a better business. And it’s the best networking opportunity that you can have within the home service business.
 
And then lastly, if you want to pour jet fuel on your business, check out the Huge Mastermind. Now, it’s not for everyone—you gotta be at over $750,000 of revenue, and you’re building toward a million, 5 million, 10 million in the next five years. It’s a network, a mentorship, and a mastermind of your peers, and we help you understand and implement the Freedom Operating System. We can go into more detail, but you can get all the information on all four of these programs—and how we’ll help you advance your business quickly—just by going to thehugeconvention.com and scrolling down—click on the Freedom Path. Or, of course, you can find the links here in the show notes.
 
Sorry—I feel like I’m getting a little bit wordy, but I just want to let you know of the resources that are available to you to help you accelerate and advance your beautiful small business. So keep on growing, keep on learning, keep advancing. And if you liked the show, go ahead—if you would—take 90 seconds and give us a review on iTunes, then subscribe and share it. It would really mean the world to us. It would help other people as we continue our mission to help people just like you and me. So thanks again for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.